The devils advocate thread.

rccaulfield

Maybe it might be interesting to play devils advocate with ourselves and ask ourselves the awkward questions maybe we havent been asked or havent thought of yet?
A devoted religious person most likely wouldn't question the universes origins or similar topics as much as an evidence seeker might(why would they, they already know), so perhaps we could pose more problematic questions to each other then they can!?
One topic at a time please!
There's alot of topics but i suppose a general one to start with might be- What instigated the big bang( God?) -Where did this mass of energy come from- I thought energy cannot be CREATED or destroyed?

drkpower

rccaulfield wrote: »

Maybe it might be interesting to play devils advocate with ourselves and ask ourselves the awkward questions maybe we havent been asked or havent thought of yet?
A devoted religious person most likely wouldn't question the universes origins or similar topics as much as an evidence seeker might(why would they, they already know), so perhaps we could pose more problematic questions to each other then they can!?

Without wanting to take this thread off-topic at the outset, isnt the sugestion that atheists are more likely to be able to question atheistic beliefs better than a religous person a teeny weeny bit arrogant..!?:eek:

Stercus Accidit

Q. How did the big bang happen?

A. I don't know.


There's the Atheist's answer, beats magic or super man dontcha think.

rccaulfield

drkpower wrote: »

Without wanting to take this thread off-topic at the outset, isnt the sugestion that atheists are more likely to be able to question atheistic beliefs better than a religous person a teeny weeny bit arrogant..!?:eek:

Didnt mean to come across that way mate- i meant if i believed in something as fact-i wouldnt devote any length of time to the alternatives whereas evidence seekers undoubtedly would!;)

pH

rccaulfield wrote: »

Where did this mass of energy come from- I thought energy cannot be CREATED or destroyed?

It seems reasonable then that *nothing* was created, if you add up all the energy and mass in the universe the total is most likely Zero.

Zillah

Honestly? After spending years having a veritable procession of missionaries come through here trying everything under the sun to win converts, I can honestly say that there are no difficult questions you can ask me as an atheist.

I will always have either a very good answer, or be able to state with confidence that we don't know the answer.

WeeBushy

Nobody knows the answer to that question, and quite probably never will. At least I'm man enough to admit my ignorance in this matter instead of accrediting to a "higher being".
There's not not a shred of evidence to support the theory that it was a god, so therefore it's as ridiculous a claim as me stating "I did, I created the universe". It's just as likely that it was me than it was you, or god, or allah, or any other idea you wish to make up.
So I'm afraid OP, this thread can't go very far seeing as nobody knows the answer.

Feel free to put forward another question though!

Zillah

WeeBushy wrote: »

Nobody knows the answer to that question, and quite probably never will. At least I'm man enough to admit my ignorance in this matter instead of accrediting to a "higher being".
There's not not a shred of evidence to support the theory that it was a god, so therefore it's as ridiculous a claim as me stating "I did, I created the universe". It's just as likely that it was me than it was you, or god, or allah, or any other idea you wish to make up.
So I'm afraid OP, this thread can't go very far seeing as nobody knows the answer.

Feel free to put forward another question though!

Actually it's more likely you do it, at least we know you exist.

WeeBushy

Zillah wrote: »

Actually it's more likely you do it, at least we know you exist.

Do you?

Zillah

Right now I both do and do not exist, but as soon as you read this post my wave function will collapse and resolve into existence. Quite trippy.

Overblood

Why do bananas fit so perfectly into a human hand?

togster

rccaulfield wrote: »

What instigated the big bang( God?) -Where did this mass of energy come from- I thought energy cannot be CREATED or destroyed?

The big bang is conception, similar to mine or your own conception. Next followed expansion and fragmentation in the finite plane, similar to our life.

Death is contaction and re-absorbtion.

Conception is the big bang.
Expansion is proliferation.
Contraction is death.
The infinite is neither expansion or contraction.

I think our lives are both scaled up and down versions of the universe(s). We are constantly in flux (expanding and contracting) within the expansion of the universe trying to find the infinite/balance between the two.

To ask what or who caused all this is pointless (i think). True understanding will only come about when we understand it within the infintite (outside of time) And science plus this understanding will unlock the key (i think). Both will need to complement each other.

rccaulfield

WeeBushy wrote: »

Nobody knows the answer to that question, and quite probably never will. At least I'm man enough to admit my ignorance in this matter instead of accrediting to a "higher being".

Feel free to put forward another question though!

Yea i suppose its beyond us at the moment to think of what was before the beginning or similar concepts-same as pac man not being able to imagine an up or down dimension in 2d!
Well Anyone can throw up a question -doesnt have to be me!;)

rccaulfield

Overblood wrote: »

Why do bananas fit so perfectly ito a human hand?

My best guess would be that-over a very long period of time- bananas that were the easiest to eat according to shape were eaten by our ancestors, rather then the difficult ones to grasp which were not eaten and therefore the seed wasnt spread for the next generation of that mutation of banana shape!
Perhaps in addition,our pre-opposable thumb ancestors grasp was quite clumsy and so only the mutation of banana that was easy to grasp survived by natural selection!
Only thing is -i'm not an expert on how the banana tree spreads its seed -bananasit dont have pips like oranges etc!-so open to correction on all this!:D

Zillah

togster wrote: »

Death is contaction and re-absorbtion.

The universe isn't going to contract, it turns out it's actually getting faster.

I think our lives are both scaled up and down versions of the universe(s).

Think better.

togster

Zillah wrote: »

Think better.

You totally missed everything and came to the conclusion i knew you would.

JC 2K3

How did you come to the conclusion in the first place?

togster

JC 2K3 wrote: »

How did you come to the conclusion in the first place?

It's not a conclusion.

JC 2K3

How'd you come up with the idea then?

togster

JC 2K3 wrote: »

How'd you come up with the idea then?

It came to me :pac:

Zillah

togster wrote: »

You totally missed everything and came to the conclusion i knew you would.

I like you, your posts are mysterious. Makes for a nice departure from all the reasonable discussion we're used to around here.

Goduznt Xzst

Zillah wrote: »

Think better.

I think what Togster is trying to say, in a round-about metaphysical manner is that none of us can escape entropy. Neither the stars, the planets or even this Universe (probably) is infinite.

Why this is a point of relevance I however don't know. It reminds me of the guff myself and others used to come out with in "mind expanding" sessions..."we're all made of stardust man... think about it... just.. just... woah!!! We're not in the Universe... we ARE the Universe"

togster

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Why this is a point of relevance I however don't know.

It is of relevance because the OP asked what caused it all. Perhaps there was no cause, or creator, just infinity.

JC 2K3

Has it not been proven that the universe began, or at least "began" at one point? Or is this just a Christian misinterpretation?

The idea that the universe is one big wave that expands and contracts is something I've thought about before, and an idea I quite like, but I couldn't assert that it's true, because in reality I haven't a fcuking clue.

togster

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Has it not been proven that the universe began, or at least "began" at one point? Or is this just a Christian misinterpretation?

I don't think it's a christian misinterpretatation. I think when we became aware of "time" the awareness of infinity was lost. If you remove "time" there is no beginning and end. So the universe did not "begin", it just is. The big bang did not happen, it is happening all the time, everywhere. Conception.

The expansion is expressed in terms of time and that is what is physical.

stevejazzx

Overblood wrote: »

Why do bananas fit so perfectly ito a human hand?

The same reason why I need a hammer to open a coconut.

Goduznt Xzst

JC 2K3 wrote: »

The idea that the universe is one big wave that expands and contracts is something I've thought about before, and an idea I quite like, but I couldn't assert that it's true, because in reality I haven't a fcuking clue.

You're thinking of the big bounce hypothesis

rccaulfield

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You're thinking of the big bounce hypothesis

Thats just as likely to be true as the 'we are the first ever universe' theory, which now that i think of it is a bit arrogant of us! However its a theory with no evidence or even any conceivable evidence forthcoming in the future-in the end it still leads back to the problem that if we are the 1004th universe-whats the story with the first one? Or are numbers a human construction similar to time?

rccaulfield

rccaulfield wrote: »

Or are numbers a human construction similar to time?

Numbers aren't a human construction. Our representations of a number are, but the numbers themselves -- whatever they are -- aren't.

dvpower

Overblood wrote: »

Why do bananas fit so perfectly ito a human hand?

(Godless) EU regulations.

Stercus Accidit

rccaulfield wrote: »

Thats just as likely to be true as the 'we are the first ever universe' theory, which now that i think of it is a bit arrogant of us! However its a theory with no evidence or even any conceivable evidence forthcoming in the future-in the end it still leads back to the problem that if we are the 1004th universe-whats the story with the first one? Or are numbers a human construction similar to time?

Do you consider the infinite universe theory to be more humble?

rccaulfield

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Do you consider the infinite universe theory to be more humble?

No but-seen as we at present cannot say much about the big bang and before (other then it happened)- it would be a faith type assumption that we are the first universe!?

Sam Vimes

Who's saying we're definitely the first universe?

Dades

rccaulfield wrote: »

No but-seen as we at present cannot say much about the big bang and before (other then it happened)- it would be a faith type assumption that we are the first universe!?

It would be if anyone has said that, which they didn't. If fact there seemed to a be a complete lack of assumptions being made.

As a Devils Advocate aren't you supposed to question arguments actually made?

rccaulfield

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Who's saying we're definitely the first universe?

Me at first!:D

rccaulfield

Dades wrote: »

It would be if anyone has said that, which they didn't. If fact there seemed to a be a complete lack of assumptions being made.

As a Devils Advocate aren't you supposed to question arguments actually made?

Read original post anyone can pose a topic;)

Valmont

Why does the idea of a God comfort and fulfill millions of people?

drkpower

Valmont wrote: »

Why does the idea of a God comfort and fulfill millions of people?

Eh..... eternal life, paradise in heaven etc etc..... sounds great. As long as you can ignore the bad stuff, its a bed of roses. Sure you would be mad not to.....:D

Turtwig

That's the million (infinite?) dollar question isn't it?

God makes life simple, we like to keep things simple.
The question is always 'why' though? In other words why is itharder to accept the image of the complicated Universe which is actually far more elegant and beautiful ( .) than its simplistic,black and white but definitely false counterpart?

robindch

Valmont wrote: »

Why does the idea of a God comfort and fulfill millions of people?

Check out Pascal Boyer's "Religion Explained". It's far more rarified than any of the offerings of the Four Horsemen, and it's far more comprehensive too. It will also answer your question.

Get it even if only to appreciate the cover photo.

rccaulfield

Valmont wrote: »

Why does the idea of a God comfort and fulfill millions of people?

Because they will meet their lost relatives in the afterlife=theres so many reasons but i reckon this is the strongest!

rccaulfield

If GOD didnt create man above the animals and IF EVOLUTION is real

---

Why is there such a gulf in ability/brain power between chimps and humans?= both are meant to have descended from the same ancestor and are now cousins!!! Yet the VAST gap is there. Is there a similar gap of abilities in close cousins in the animal kingdom? Religion says no!?

Goduznt Xzst

rccaulfield wrote: »

Why is there such a gulf in ability/brain power between chimps and humans?

There isn't. The implications of the differences though is what causes the apparent divide. Chimps evolved extremely good short term memories (better than humans), whereas humans evolved extremely good long term memories.

The impact of this small difference has been monumental. It allows us to plan for future events in the long term. It allowed the hunter gatherers to plan for the coming winters, it allowed them to have surplus to work on other activities such as art and music. What this small difference in our evolution accomplished was to give us the ability to separate ourselves from the base survival grind of most other species.

Sam Vimes

This is a common misunderstanding. A bigger brain isn't "better", only better for our environment. The environment the chimps were living in was such that they could survive perfectly well without developing their brains and so their brains didn't develop

Evolution does not have a single defined path with humans at the top, evolution means that animals end up with traits that are suited to their environment and chimps are perfectly suited to their environment

Also, the genes that allowed our brains to develop came about through a random mutation. That particular branch of primates never had that mutation and never had the gene interbred into them

togster

Valmont wrote: »

Why does the idea of a God comfort and fulfill millions of people?

I think because we are aware of time and therefore beginning and end. If we were unaware of end and death we would have no religion, no atheism.

CerebralCortex

togster wrote: »

I think because we are aware of time and therefore beginning and end. If we were unaware of end and death we would have no religion, no atheism.

No religion = atheism thats the hardest point to get through to a theist actually.

JC 2K3

I think togster means no awareness of the concept of religion, with that, there'd be no atheism, because there'd be no such thing as theism.

Mark Hamill

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I think togster means no awareness of the concept of religion, with that, there'd be no atheism, because there'd be no such thing as theism.

There would be broad atheism (ie just the absence of belief in a deity).

rccaulfield

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Evolution does not have a single defined path with humans at the top, evolution means that animals end up with traits that are suited to their environment and chimps are perfectly suited to their environment

Also, the genes that allowed our brains to develop came about through a random mutation. That particular branch of primates never had that mutation and never had the gene interbred into them

Nice one!;) I suppose at some point our ancestors went out onto the savannah and needed different traits/skills to survive then the chimps ancestor!

rccaulfield

How did humans get on the continent of Australia and similar remote places all those millions of years ago from africa? Dont say surfed over lol!

dvpower

rccaulfield wrote: »

How did humans get on the continent of Australia and similar remote places all those millions of years ago from africa? Dont say surfed over lol!

They didn't. They arrived much later, some by land-bridge and subsequently by Quantas.