Car clamping. Legal??

#15

Hi.
I read over a few old threads on other forums about clamping. No one seemed to be sure about the legal situation. I thought I might be able to get some clarification here.

Is it legal to remove a clamp from a car? I'm talking about clamping on private property; apartment blocks, shopping centres etc.

I mean, is it not an offence to interfere with someone else's private property?

I have never been clamped but I would be interested to know the legal position on clamping.

Thanks.

Victor

It is generally considered fair game if you can remove it without damaging it.

Damaging it may be criminal damage.

As the fee is usually for clamp removal, it is also generally considered that the fee won't apply if you remove it yourself.

#15

Victor wrote: »

It is generally considered fair game if you can remove it without damaging it.

Damaging it may be criminal damage.

As the fee is usually for clamp removal, it is also generally considered that the fee won't apply if you remove it yourself.

Thanks for the reply.

Does the damage have to be done intentionally? ie if it gets slightly damaged (accidentally) while removing it, is that still considered criminal damage?

And what is the situation is someone just cuts off the clamp, throws it into the boot, and drives away? Technically it is stealing right? But in the absence of CCTV or a witness, how could a clamping company legally pursue an individual in that instance?

Victor

#15 wrote: »

But in the absence of CCTV or a witness, how could a clamping company legally pursue an individual in that instance?

They take photos when they clamp you.

Hagar

What legal status do those photos hold? Any photo can be shopped.

Are they obliged to maintained a chain of evidence in the way a Garda collecting evidence at a crime scene would?
If not I suspect they are worthless.

nuac

Hager, most judges will accept photographs if the person who took them swears says the image on the photograph is the same as that seen through the lens of the camera at that time and place, and was printed out by the photographer on his or employers computer.

Yes we all know about Photoshop. In fact with the use of photocopiers any document can be altered. However making such an allegation in court against a witness without being able to back it up can attract a lot of criticism from the judge.

Mena

Victor wrote: »

It is generally considered fair game if you can remove it without damaging it.

Damaging it may be criminal damage.

As the fee is usually for clamp removal, it is also generally considered that the fee won't apply if you remove it yourself.

While I accept that, what right did said clamper have to tamper with the vehicle in the first place?

Also,

Can I just willy nilly clamp all the cars in my estate, or any estate and then either charge X to have them removed or have the people up in court should they damage my clamps?

Victor

Mena wrote: »

While I accept that, what right did said clamper have to tamper with the vehicle in the first place?

What right did the car driver have to trespass?

eth0_

Clamping is perfectly legal in Ireland. ANYONE can set themselves up as a clamping company - you could buy a clamp in Argos and start your own business tomorrow. Do you honestly think it would still be happening if it were not?

Some countries have outlawed private clamping. In Scotland, you can legally only be clamped if you have no tax on your vehicle or are parked illegally - this is done by the DVLA and the council.

Our man in Havana

Courts here have ruled private clamping to be illegal. Ask Judge Hartnett.

#15

Victor wrote: »

They take photos when they clamp you.

But, what if the car owner was to remove the clamp, leave it on the ground, and drive home? (therefore not stealing the clamp).

But if the clamp gets stolen by someone else before the clamping company come to collect it, is the car owner liable? Wouldn't the company have to prove the car owner stole it? Surely the photo would not be sufficient proof?

Basically, it comes down to this. Could someone (legally) remove the clamp without damaging it, leave it on the ground and drive home? They would not be legally liable for any fine???

Our man in Havana

#15 wrote: »

But, what if the car owner was to remove the clamp, leave it on the ground, and drive home? (therefore not stealing the clamp).

But if the clamp gets stolen by someone else before the clamping company come to collect it, is the car owner liable? Wouldn't the company have to prove the car owner stole it? Surely the photo would not be sufficient proof?

They would have an impossible task in a criminal court. They would not be able to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.
I would in that situation take the clamp with you and return it to the company asap. That would scupper any theft charges.

#15 wrote: »

Basically, it comes down to this. Could someone (legally) remove the clamp without damaging it, leave it on the ground and drive home? They would not be legally liable for any fine???

Pretty much, but see above about returning the clamp.

eth0_

Bond-007 wrote: »

Courts here have ruled private clamping to be illegal. Ask Judge Hartnett.

How can one judge change the law?
If that were true, why is there still private clamping going on...such as the crowd who clamp at Iarnrod Eireann stations?

WillieCocker

As someone said in another thread, remove said clamp, call clampers to say you will pay , when they arrive point at the clamp, removed from said vehicle, then drive off.

Our man in Havana

No one is challenging them in the courts that is the problem.

Private clamping is subject to the civil law and specifically contract law. I am sure if a case did get to a superior court the clampers will be having some restless nights.

If a case did get to court it would come down to whether the victim agreed to be clamped or not. The clampers would have to show that the driver did see the signs and had agreed to the terms of the contract. Also any release fee would have to be reasonable. The leading case is Wine vs LB Waltham Forest.

eth0_

WillieCocker wrote: »

As someone said in another thread, remove said clamp, call clampers to say you will pay , when they arrive point at the clamp, removed from said vehicle, then drive off.

Except you have to pay over the phone before they'll come out to remove the clamp. I've never heard of clampers taking cash payments.

Our man in Havana

I've never heard of clampers taking cash payments.

LOL! 99% of private clampers only accept cash.
Cheques can be stopped and credit cards can be charged back.

eth0_

Bond-007 wrote: »

LOL! 99% of private clampers only accept cash.

Oh! I've only ever been clamped once (in Dublin) and it was card payments only.

Our man in Havana

Clampers operating under the authority of the state accept only cards. They are covered under statute law. The cowboys are most certainly not.

It is important to distinguish between clampers working for the city councils and private clampers working for themselves.

Victor

eth0_ wrote: »

How can one judge change the law?

Its called precedent.

If that were true, why is there still private clamping going on...such as the crowd who clamp at Iarnrod Eireann stations?

Slightly different situation as CIÉ/IÉ have bye-laws.

Ashlinggnilsia

There is usually a reason for being calmed they dont just clam any car they see!! Usually for being parked illegally!! Again though if you can get the clamp off without damaging your car or their clamp they cant do anything about it i dont think!! Plus if you saw yourself as somewhat of a regular to gettin clamps itd probly be cheaper to go and get alloys i think it is.. Its either alloys or geeps they cant clamp!! Something about the way the wheel is that the clamp doesnt sit on them right blah blah blah!! I see your frustration though they are fair rotten they come to my college and clamp people while they are at class if you 10 15 minutes late you have no chance of getting a parking spot so you have to make the decision pay 80 to go to class or miss the class and save 80!!

sdanseo

Remember that when you enter a carpark where clamping in place there will always be a very large sign at the entrance encouraging you to pay your way. The wording will be something along the lines of "it is a condition of entry that you accept these regualtions" or "by entering these premesis it is understood that you acept and agree to be bound by..." etc.

Perfectly legal, as stated above its simple contract law. If there was no sign, then certainly there are no legal grounds whatsoever for clamping and every legal right to remove it yourself provided it is not damaged.

Our man in Havana

There may be grounds for challenge, that clamping is a trespass against your car and is a disproportionate response to the parking. Also if I put up a sign saying release fee €500, would that be legal? I would think not.

Also there is no such thing as illegal parking on private land.

Ashlinggnilsia

Bond-007 wrote: »

There may be grounds for challenge, that clamping is a trespass against your car and is a disproportionate response to the parking. Also if I put up a sign saying release fee €500, would that be legal? I would think not.

Also there is no such thing as illegal parking on private land.

He said private parking in places such as shopping centers, aparentments etc, if they have double yellow lines etc which they do have in shopping centres etc its still illegal in the sense of "you cant park here dingbat" places such as that get clampers to come in because they dont want people parking ontop of the buildings or loading bays. Plus some car parks though they may seem as though they belong to apartments do not!!

Our man in Havana

Ah Christ.

Double yellow lines on private land have no force in law. They are merely a suggestion.

Ashlinggnilsia

Bond-007 wrote: »

Ah Christ.

Double yellow lines on private land have no force in law. They are merely a suggestion.

Calm yourself jaysus i said double yellow lines on private land meaning "dont park here" everyone knows not to park on double yellow lines all im sayin is that if you park on em you cant be suprised!! And your just nit pickin now !

Our man in Havana

Are you legally qualified? Where does it say double yellow lines mean anything expect on a public road?

As for private clampers, I find an angle grinder deals with them effectively.

Ashlinggnilsia

Well if you are parking on private property to begin with you need the owners permission to park there so i would guess that if they are designating spots for you to park in and they have put down double yellow lines they clearly dont want you parking there, its their property so if they want to get clampers to clam you they can after all it is their own PRIVATE property. And inrelation to to your question on whether i am qualified as what? A solicitor? Barrister because if that is what your hinting at no I'm not and i dont see what that matters because boards and in particular this section is to express opinion and NOT as stated in the RULES give legal advice!

eth0_

Ashlinggnilsia wrote: »

they come to my college and clamp people while they are at class if you 10 15 minutes late you have no chance of getting a parking spot so you have to make the decision pay 80 to go to class or miss the class and save 80!!

I'm sure most of those students don't NEED to drive to college. When I was at college just a few years ago, hardly any students drove in.

eth0_

Bond-007 wrote: »

As for private clampers, I find an angle grinder deals with them effectively.

Have you ever actually used an angle grinder to remove a clamp?
If so, what were the consequences?

siobhank

I wish someone would challenge them in the courts. I think the principle of them is disgraceful.

Mena

Victor wrote: »

What right did the car driver have to trespass?

How is parking somewhere trespass

Fine, if someone drives into someone else's property and parks up, but in a shopping centre?

Our man in Havana

eth0_ wrote: »

Have you ever actually used an angle grinder to remove a clamp?
If so, what were the consequences?

Not yet. I tend not to provoke them. I am prepared if they tried anything and I would not be afraid of the consequences.

I wish someone would challenge them in the courts. I think the principle of them is disgraceful.

I agree with you 100%. The problem is people think they have the legal right to do what they do and don't challenge them, the others simply don't want the bother.

Helix

how much does a clamp cost to buy? i ask out of curiousity as to whether it would be much more of a hit financially to replace a clamp you cut off yourself than it would be to pay the release fee

Mena

Helix wrote: »

how much does a clamp cost to buy? i ask out of curiousity as to whether it would be much more of a hit financially to replace a clamp you cut off yourself than it would be to pay the release fee

Or even better, clamp yourself wherever you park, thus probably never getting clamped again

Our man in Havana

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1201637/Uniformed-police-officer-filmed-using-bolt-cutters-bid-remove-parking-clamp.html

bungler

siobhank wrote: »

I wish someone would challenge them in the courts. I think the principle of them is disgraceful.

why dont you get up and take them to court yourself

Our man in Havana

You have to have legal standing.

siobhank

you see, I would actually have to BE clamped for that. Otherwise I would have no case... oh, I get it, you were being obstreperous...

Daviator

If you must pay the fine why not make the clampers pay also. Why not copy the french system and just drop a bit of superglue into the barrell of the padlock and watch the clampers try open the lock.

Apparently very few clampers operate in France anymore.

Ashlinggnilsia

eth0_ wrote: »

I'm sure most of those students don't NEED to drive to college. When I was at college just a few years ago, hardly any students drove in.

Yeah i get your point but i would say now that there will be alot more because if you have a car anyway it would be cheaper to drive up and back and still live at home that pay for rent and all that someplace else...They are bringing in pay parking though because alot of people would drive who in who live within 10 15 min of the college!

#15

Daviator wrote: »

If you must pay the fine why not make the clampers pay also. Why not copy the french system and just drop a bit of superglue into the barrell of the padlock and watch the clampers try open the lock.

Apparently very few clampers operate in France anymore.

Interesting. Could you expand on that?

Is it not criminal damage to glue the lock? Also, are you not just inconveniencing yourself by gluing the lock?

Helix

#15 wrote: »

Is it not criminal damage to glue the lock?

gonna be pretty tough to prove it

eth0_

Ashlinggnilsia wrote: »

Yeah i get your point but i would say now that there will be alot more because if you have a car anyway it would be cheaper to drive up and back and still live at home that pay for rent and all that someplace else...They are bringing in pay parking though because alot of people would drive who in who live within 10 15 min of the college!

Maybe they should operate a permit system, only issuing permits to those who live outside a certain radius of college.

Daviator

#15 wrote: »

Interesting. Could you expand on that?

Is it not criminal damage to glue the lock? Also, are you not just inconveniencing yourself by gluing the lock?

The interesting thing is in France it was generally not the owners of the vehicles putting super glue in the locks it was just random people who didnt like the idea of clampers in their apartment complexes.

After a while of having to cut off clamps, replace locks, pay wages etc it wasnt worth it for them to operate.:)

Just a question does anybody know if you had the master key for these locks could i charge a reduced fee for removal of the clamps.

trad

To the legal eagles that post here.

Road Traffic Act 1961 Sect 113 - Interfering with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle applies in a public place. ie car park.

I know it has always been taken that interfering with the mech is with the intention of unauthorised taking but it could be open to interpetation as mechanism is not defined.
Interfering with the drive mechanism of a car by placing a clamp on it could be interpeted as breaching Sect 113, an arrestable offence.

That would be some sight, clampers in handcuffs

Our man in Havana

Obviously that could only apply to private sector clampers.

Ashlinggnilsia

eth0_ wrote: »

Maybe they should operate a permit system, only issuing permits to those who live outside a certain radius of college.

The are going introducing pay parking they already have the barriers up in 1 of the car parks and will probly have the rest fitted when we go back in september cant remeber how much they are going charging in a way thats unfair on those who have to drive but at the same time there would be people driving who live litterally 10 minutes walk away which is a bit unfair on others but shur i dunno if they introduce the fees and all that there will be alot less people going to college!! Probly have to work for a year or two first and save and then go! I have only 12weeks left so i wont have to worry about it after that!

timmywex

Itd be interesting to clamp the clampers when they turn up to unclamp you, tell them you'd remove the clamp when they remove theirs

Profiler

timmywex wrote: »

Itd be interesting to clamp the clampers when they turn up to unclamp you, tell them you'd remove the clamp when they remove theirs

Yes but to get them to turn up you have to pay them so unless you tell them the fee for removal of your clamp is €160 cash only (twice their fee) then not sure your plan would work.

Johnny Utah

timmywex wrote: »

Itd be interesting to clamp the clampers when they turn up to unclamp you, tell them you'd remove the clamp when they remove theirs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZCl5lvOQeE

"You can't actually touch this clamp sir, legally, as you are aware........" :pac::D:pac::D