Called in Sick. Got caught

thecleverone

As the title says. A friend of mine called in sick to work and got caught out. He was seen somewhere by a manager that same day. When called up on it he lied and continued to say he was sick until he was told he was seen, so he came clean and said he pulled a sicky.

I've gone through with him a million times what a stupid eejit he is and that he's lucky to have a job etc. He's been suspended for 2 weeks and has to go into work next week to find out whats going to happen. i.e. has he lost his job or not.

Anyone with HR experience that can tell me what protocol the company need to follow and what he can expect from this meeting?

TheInquisitor

Sure...a friend!

Seriously fecked to be honset. Lying once and then lying again. He'd be lucky to still have a job. At least expect a pay cut if nothing else

omerin

2 weeks suspension, thats a bit harsh, unless it wasn't a first offense and he has other disciplinary problems. i'd say he'd be ok, but you'd never know

thecleverone

Sure...a friend! Seriously fecked to be honset. Lying once and then lying again. He'd be lucky to still have a job. At least expect a pay cut if nothing else

Couldn't agree with you more. I'm an employer myself and if one of my staff did that, i'd be livid!

2 weeks suspension, thats a bit harsh, unless it wasn't a first offense and he has other disciplinary problems. i'd say he'd be ok, but you'd never know

First offence. No other warnings for anything. Great worker just lapse of common sense on his part. Always doing more than asked but my opinion is that they're making an example of him as its a big company and people pull sickys regularly. Management know this but cant prove it. Unfortunately my mate was caught and they want to make sure that other staff know that its unacceptable.

Unfortunately, it'll be a hard lesson learned whatever the outcome.

ronaneire

Ah school... All depends if he was in trouble with them, or has he pulled many "sickys" before.

Otis Driftwood

Is the suspension with or without pay?

Will he have a disciplinary hearing when he returns?(By law he MUST have at least 48 hours prior notice if its going to result in a disciplinary hearing)

A 2 week suspension does sound a bit excessive however if this is common practice then management may decide to make an example and absolutely throw the book at him.

At best,he can expect a formal warning.

At worst,well,its not beyond the realms of possibility that he will get the boot for gross misconduct ie,deception.

If he does get just a slap on the wrist he can count himself very very lucky.

dudara

Apparently a recent ISME study found that 83% of sick days are a lie. Link to article in Irish Times

Personally, I couldn't believe it when I read the article - especially the attitude that some people consider sick days to be additional holidays.

You can't blame employers for clamping down on things like this as the moment - sickies are costing them money that they may well not have.

Oh, and the days that you are pulling a sickie - don't post on Facebook, Boards etc

x in the city

From: Kyle Doyle
Sent: Wednesday, 27 August 2008 9:55 a.m.
To: Niresh Regmi
Subject: RE: Absence on Thursday 21st 2008

HAHAHA LMAO epic fail
No worries man
Regards,

Kyle Doyle
Resolutions Expert - Technical





From: Niresh Regmi
Sent: Wednesday, 27 August 2008 9:50 a.m.
To: Kyle Doyle
Subject: RE: Absence on Thursday 21st 2008
Hi Kyle,
I believe the proof that you are after is below

[posts pic of him on facebook, with status. is not going to work, still trashed, pulled a sickie. whooooo]


NIRESH REGMI
Real Time Manager, Workforce Operations
Ground Floor, 30 Ross Street, Glebe, NSW, 2037
T: +61 2 9009 1329 Extn:61329
F: + 61 2 9009 1734
W: www.aapt.com.au
E: niresh.regmi@aapt.com.au
_____________________________________________
From: Kyle Doyle
Sent: Wednesday, 27 August 2008 9:43 a.m.
To: Niresh Regmi
Subject: RE: Absence on Thursday 21st 2008
Hi Niresh,
My leave was due to medical reasons, so you cannot deny leave based on a line manager’s discretion, with no proof, please process leave as requested.
Thanks
Regards,

Kyle Doyle
Resolutions Expert - Technical





From: Niresh Regmi
Sent: Wednesday, 27 August 2008 9:39 a.m.
To: Kyle Doyle
Subject: RE: Absence on Thursday 21st 2008
Hi Kyle,
Usually that is the case, as per your contract. However please note that leave during these occasions is only granted for genuine medical reasons. You line manager has determined that your leave was not due to medical reasons and as such we cannot grant leave on this occasion.
NIRESH REGMI
Real Time Manager, Workforce Operations
Ground Floor, 30 Ross Street, Glebe, NSW, 2037
T: +61 2 9009 1329 Extn:61329
F: + 61 2 9009 1734
W: www.aapt.com.au
E: niresh.regmi@aapt.com.au


_____________________________________________
From: Kyle Doyle
Sent: Wednesday, 27 August 2008 9:38 a.m.
To: Niresh Regmi
Subject: RE: Absence on Thursday 21st 2008
Niresh,
1 day leave absences do not require a medical certificate as stated in my contract, provided I have stated that I am on leave for medical reasons.
Thanks
Regards,

Kyle Doyle
Resolutions Expert - Technical






From: Niresh Regmi
Sent: Wednesday, 27 August 2008 9:35 a.m.
To: Kyle Doyle
Subject: Absence on Thursday 21st 2008
Hi Kyle,
Please provide a medical certificate stating a valid reason for your sick leave on Thursday 21st 2008.
Thank You

NIRESH REGMI
Real Time Manager, Workforce Operations
Ground Floor, 30 Ross Street, Glebe, NSW, 2037
T: +61 2 9009 1329 Extn:61329
F: + 61 2 9009 1734
W: www.aapt.com.au
E: niresh.regmi@aapt.com.au
This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of this communication or disclose anything about it.

Otis Driftwood

dudara wrote: »

Apparently a recent ISME study found that 83% of sick days are a lie. Link to article in Irish Times

Personally, I couldn't believe it when I read the article - especially the attitude that some people consider sick days to be additional holidays.

You can't blame employers for clamping down on things like this as the moment - sickies are costing them money that they may well not have.

Oh, and the days that you are pulling a sickie - don't post on Facebook, Boards etc

I read today(cant find the bloody link) that in the UK sick days have dropped from 8 to 7.4 on average in the last 12 months.
Its estimated that sick days still cost employers over there something like £19 Billion per annum.
Any wonder crackdowns are happening.

gerrycollins

I never believe my staff when they ring in sick, however I have a good idea if they are telling the truth.

one staff memeber asked for a day off with a months notice we refused for various reasons. the staff member never came back to us to fight their corner.

Made note of it in holiday book in case other staff who had the day off came back to say they could work it.

When the time came the staff member rang in sick.

Sorry but I didnt come down in the last shower.

BTW your friend might have an issue with the way he is been threated. there sounds like some serious breeches of conduct there.

leeroybrown

Personally (as an employee), I don't have much sympathy for anyone who gets caught pulling sickies. I know some people who do it fairly regularly and know of situations where employees have deliberately extended their long-term sick leave so that they could work a second job while claiming from the company's sick pay scheme. Plenty of companies have reduced and restricted their sick pay schemes because of chancers like these. At the end of the day these people ruin it for everyone else who needs to call in sick for a genuine reason.

Vegeta

gerrycollins wrote: »

I never believe my staff when they ring in sick, however I have a good idea if they are telling the truth.

one staff memeber asked for a day off with a months notice we refused for various reasons. the staff member never came back to us to fight their corner.

Made note of it in holiday book in case other staff who had the day off came back to say they could work it.

When the time came the staff member rang in sick.

Sorry but I didnt come down in the last shower.

BTW your friend might have an issue with the way he is been threated. there sounds like some serious breeches of conduct there.

They asked for a single day off a whole month in advance and you said no. Harsh

MagicMarker

+1

There should be no reason to refuse one day off to someone who gave 1 months notice. That's a joke of epic proportions.

I'm in my current job almost a year and haven't had a sick day once, but everyone else takes loads, with a couple of people having a sick day at least every 2-3 weeks.

ntlbell

where was he seen?

could he say he was going to a doc with an embarrassing problem he didn't want discuss or some such ?

leeroybrown

Vegeta wrote: »

They asked for a single day off a whole month in advance and you said no. Harsh

MagicMarker wrote: »

There should be no reason to refuse one day off to someone who gave 1 months notice. That's a joke of epic proportions.

In fairness, it seems pretty clear from gerrycollins' post that they were willing to accomodate the person if someone else who had already booked the day off was able to work. You always get over-subscription of certain days in the holiday calendar. There are loads of jobs where it's not practical or possible to accomodate everyone at the same time. First come first served...

ceannair06

I've been in this situation once - thank God it was back in UK before I moved back!

I had an accident in work and almost lost a finger. I had damaged nerves (8 years on still got em!).

I was taken to hospital with my hand in ice (as I wore a heavy ring and it almost took my middle finger off) and was discharged the next day (not kept in, just a crap wait!!).

Phoned in work as the hospital told me not under any circumstances to move the hand at all for a week.

Posted in sick note and all was well.

Hand seemed to be okay and so hospital said to try work and if it goes numb at all, the nerves are having problems so go to a GP as it may need plaster.

Anyroad, first day in work the First Aider looked at my hand (she was an ex-nurse btw) and said that the same as the hospital. Hour or so later I have no feeling in the fingers, but loads of pain in the rest of the hand. So First Aider drove me to hospital and saw me in. She drove back and told the boss I would likely be off for a week at least.

Hospital said to go home but no sick note this time (never found out why) but to see GP. GP said definintely a week at least of immobility and I could get a sick note but after a week - okay, that's standard.

So, I phoned the boss and told him what happened and he said that was ok.

I came back after two weeks to a letter on my desk saying I have been suspended for a week (on full pay thank God!) for "misconduct". So i ask about what and it turns out that I never called in each day. I told them that there was no point as what could I say, "Yes, hand still f****d. Same as yesterday".

Thankfully union got back behind me and told Manager to sod off. HOWEVER, while I was in the hearing he started saying that I had unauthorised sick leave as I wasn't sick as he had seen me.

As this was 40 miles away from my home and I had only been out to hospital and in a sling, I told him he better have proof or withdraw the allegations. He did so grudgingly.

Bottom line - if you are legitimately off sick and can prove it, then stand your ground.

Oh and the moral of the story - I had not intended to sue for compensation as I worked there, but I later quit and sued. And won!

damnyanks

Isn't it just a case of one persons word against the other? Ok granted one person is the manager, but if he were to be let go for gross misconduct they'd have terrible issues proving it.

How do you deal with people you know are faking but have no hard proof?

gerrycollins

Vegeta wrote: »

They asked for a single day off a whole month in advance and you said no. Harsh

no offence but you dont know the reason why I refused. It was because i had no one to cover them.

any other day would have been fine except the one they asked for and i offered other dates sometimes it cant be done and i make no excuses for it

leeroybrown

damnyanks wrote: »

How do you deal with people you know are faking but have no hard proof?

That's the real problem. From what I've seen, companies that want to do something about the problem seem to aggressively reduce sick pay rights for all employee. Short of that, all they can really do is change policies so that all sick days must be certified. In the end the people who don't pull sickies are the ones that get shafted.

I'm also sure that plenty of companies eventually 'find a way' to deal with problem employees.

Vegeta

gerrycollins wrote: »

no offence but you dont know the reason why I refused. It was because i had no one to cover them.

any other day would have been fine except the one they asked for and i offered other dates sometimes it cant be done and i make no excuses for it

That's fine you had your reasons and it was more than likely the right thing to do, but from an employee point of view its still harsh. Even with a months notice the organisation was not flexible enough to manage for the day.

bbam

damnyanks wrote: »

Isn't it just a case of one persons word against the other? Ok granted one person is the manager, but if he were to be let go for gross misconduct they'd have terrible issues proving it.

How do you deal with people you know are faking but have no hard proof?

1. He admitted he'd lied, twice.
2. Build a picture of their overall attendance and approach them when there is enough evidence, and then there is the option of steering everything but the ****tiest of jobs away from people who don't pull their weight.

Best I can see for this guy is to come clean and hope for the best.. The more he drags the whole thing out, the more managers backs will get up and it will only end worse... Smooth it over and move on !

Babooshka

gerrycollins wrote: »

I never believe my staff when they ring in sick, however I have a good idea if they are telling the truth.

one staff memeber asked for a day off with a months notice we refused for various reasons. the staff member never came back to us to fight their corner.

Made note of it in holiday book in case other staff who had the day off came back to say they could work it.

When the time came the staff member rang in sick.

Sorry but I didnt come down in the last shower.

BTW your friend might have an issue with the way he is been threated. there sounds like some serious breeches of conduct there.

You sound like a barrel of laughs to work for. Never believe your staff? Write down everything they do? Are you a Guardai? I'm in HR and I'm not even that bad...lighten up, people do have stuff outside their jobs that need their attendance every now and again, and you get what you put out so if you're going around begrudging everyone and only giving people to the exact second what they're allowed by law you'll have no one working for you at all. Sorry I'm getting at your post and not you, nothing personal as I don't know you but I'd have to say, no wonder you couldn't organise anyone to cover the other guy if you treat people with such contempt, people sense that kind of begrudgery.

Sorry not trying to bring this off topic, point I am making is, sometimes people have to pull sickies when they have something pressing in their lives that they can't miss for whatever reason and are out of holidays. Being honest is obviously the best policy but everyone including HR Managers know a certain amount of sickies are for those other things in life that people need to be at apart from the job they're enslaved to. That's why I try and let some of them just slide past senior management without them noticing or asking about records because there still has to be some understanding of a persons life, if they're allowed to have one, outside their jobs. Jeez gerry not everyone's out to get you in there surely?

BroomBurner

Vegeta wrote: »

That's fine you had your reasons and it was more than likely the right thing to do, but from an employee point of view its still harsh. Even with a months notice the organisation was not flexible enough to manage for the day.

I'm with gerrycollins on this, I'm afraid. Sometimes you just can't afford to have staff off. If they're told no, then call in sick, it shows a very bad attitude.

wmpdd3

From ten years of being a manager I have to say I agree with gerrycollins.

I would say 50% of sick days are bogus.

Every manager I have ever worked had at most 1 days sick leave per year, compare that to staff. Explain that......

I don't think the people I worked with directly were faking sick days but I know most of my friends did even though they could have any day off they wanted as long as they booked it.

In retail there isn't an extra person on each day who can cover your job it's always skeleton staff. You can't ask customers to come back tomorrow when you'll have more staff!

In the OP's case looks like the correct procedure is not being followed, if your suspension is unpaid then you have had your outcome without an investigation and I doubt the union was present when he admitted his wrong as they probably wouldn't let them do that without first seeing proof from the employer.

gerrycollins

Babooshka wrote: »

You sound like a barrel of laughs to work for. Never believe your staff? Write down everything they do? Are you a Guardai? I'm in HR and I'm not even that bad...lighten up, people do have stuff outside their jobs that need their attendance every now and again, and you get what you put out so if you're going around begrudging everyone and only giving people to the exact second what they're allowed by law you'll have no one working for you at all. Sorry I'm getting at your post and not you, nothing personal as I don't know you but I'd have to say, no wonder you couldn't organise anyone to cover the other guy if you treat people with such contempt, people sense that kind of begrudgery.

sorry but i do take great offence to that. you base your assumptions on knowing nothing about the situation or the set up I have.

I'm so bad in your eyes that the all expenses x-mas party I had in 2008 was bedrudging towards my staff. Or the fact that we had a few great nights out with the staff for birthdays and other celebrations.

Or the fact that I celebrate all my staff's birthdays with a card and a small present.

Or the fact that I value their opnion and ask them for advice before I implement new ideas or concepts.

What about my flexibility with their holidays and time off requests i gave a person a day off this week with one days notice because cover was available.

Re read my post i wrote it down because I have seen it where people come back and say "I dont need it off now" so when I scribble out their names I can see that someone is waiting in the wings.

Also the person gave one months notice the rest gave over 6 weeks as the date was very important to some people locally but I knew this person was trying to pull a fast one.

Shelflife

Babooshka wrote: »

You sound like a barrel of laughs to work for. Never believe your staff? Write down everything they do? Are you a Guardai? I'm in HR and I'm not even that bad...lighten up, people do have stuff outside their jobs that need their attendance every now and again, and you get what you put out so if you're going around begrudging everyone and only giving people to the exact second what they're allowed by law you'll have no one working for you at all. Sorry I'm getting at your post and not you, nothing personal as I don't know you but I'd have to say, no wonder you couldn't organise anyone to cover the other guy if you treat people with such contempt, people sense that kind of begrudgery.

so let me get this clear, if you need 10 people to operate a shift and there is a pool of 15 and 10 of them want the same week off, you will give them all the week off, or do you magically hire 5 fully trained people for a week?

gerry is correct, first come first served, its not perfect but its fair.

Babooshka

gerrycollins wrote: »

sorry but i do take great offence to that. you base your assumptions on knowing nothing about the situation or the set up I have.

I'm so bad in your eyes that the all expenses x-mas party I had in 2008 was bedrudging towards my staff. Or the fact that we had a few great nights out with the staff for birthdays and other celebrations.

Or the fact that I celebrate all my staff's birthdays with a card and a small present.

Or the fact that I value their opnion and ask them for advice before I implement new ideas or concepts.

What about my flexibility with their holidays and time off requests i gave a person a day off this week with one days notice because cover was available.

Re read my post i wrote it down because I have seen it where people come back and say "I dont need it off now" so when I scribble out their names I can see that someone is waiting in the wings.

Also the person gave one months notice the rest gave over 6 weeks as the date was very important to some people locally but I knew this person was trying to pull a fast one.

Sorry, I was off line till now. Well apologies but no offence was intended and you're not "bad" in my eyes, it's the internet, I don't know you I was commenting on the words you wrote in your first post which if you read them again, do sound very harsh...is that why you wrote out all of the above? I'm sure it is true and you're a good employer but you'd never know that from your first post, you re-read it! As I said I was criticising your statements and not you, as I said I knew nothing of your set up but thanks for enlightening me. Personally I don't care if my boss doesn't know my birthday or if I get squat when it is, as I am a very black and white person when it comes to work and my real life so to speak. The issue here was about calling sick when you're not, and all I was saying was sometimes people have no other option, especiallly when they've requested understanding from an employer, the key words, "no other option" - stuff happens, indeed there are some who just take the mick it's not those people I'm talking about.

I can't retract my opinion however apart from the "barrel of laughs to work for" - that was too personal, so I'm sorry for that.

You began your post with a very begruding "I never believe my staff when they call in sick, however I have a good idea when they're telling the truth" which in itself is contradictory cos if you never believe them even when you think they're telling the truth then that's very harsh but maybe you just got confused with what you typed. I think never believing anything is very mean spirited and distrusting, and immediately puts people on the defence because people can sense from their bosses when they don't trust, so I think the lesser of two evils is sometimes looking the other way when one or two people "pull a fast one" so long as it's not a regular habit. But that's just my way of operating. Thanks for your response.

Babooshka

Shelflife wrote: »

[
so let me get this clear, if you need 10 people to operate a shift and there is a pool of 15 and 10 of them want the same week off, you will give them all the week off, or do you magically hire 5 fully trained people for a week?

gerry is correct, first come first served, its not perfect but its fair.

Excuse me, where did I ever say that? In answer, eh no, but exagerrating what you thought my point was doesn't make me wrong either, I feel you're looking for an arguement. I said nothing about first come first served being wrong. In fact Gerry's case scenario of a guy who applied a month in advance was first come but he still didn't get his day off so I don't know what you're talking about and in any case, Gerry has addressed my issues with his post so I'm finished with that end of the discussion.


EDIT: (sorry ..he wasn't first come as I stated up there I re-read Gerry's post, but a month in advance in any case...)

ceannair06

To be honest gerrycollins sounds like a manager I had before - totally cool guy in the office (gifts, parties, consideration etc).

A decent guy - and the annual leave policy was strictly first come first served so we all knew where they stood. Seems a good place to work.

However, I've had places where in one year alone I had three run ins, one was when I had to return from a funeral early as a colleague refused to cover my workload - even though she could as I trained her - and the boss backed HER up!

Same month I had booked an afternoon off 11 weeks prior to needing it as I had a flight booked for a weekend away. Senior manager needed photocopying doing and his secretary didn't want to do it and asked me. I explained I only had an hour before I went - "well, you'll have to go quickly then". I missed my flight and the weekend was ruined.

Okay as much as an absolute pain the hole the above are, the worst stunt they pulled was when I asked if I could come in early one day, and work through lunch so I could leave at 4pm to collect a prescription for my dad, who as well as having major health issues also had broken his ankle.

They refused as "it is not policy to allow the altering of staff hours". Yet my colleague was allowed to come in at 6am (unsupervised for 3 hours so she was working, yeah right!) so that she could pick her kid up. Yet she has three family members next door to the school and a husband who could help.

I explained it was my dad's health and they said "we have to assist D**** as we are a family friendly employer - we have a certificate to show it".

Apparently, kids are family but elderly infirm relatives are not ?

the_syco

MagicMarker wrote: »

+1

There should be no reason to refuse one day off to someone who gave 1 months notice. That's a joke of epic proportions.

Usually happens when someone else has already gotten the time booked off many months in advance (read: 5 or 6 months), and they're in a skeleton/small team.

Babooshka wrote: »

no wonder you couldn't organise anyone to cover the other guy if you treat people with such contempt

F**king HR people :mad::rolleyes::mad: Why bother booking holidays off months in advance, and letting the manager know they won't be in so that they could roster someone else on, when you can just "pull a sickie:rolleyes:". Luckily HR in the current company are good. HR in the last company were an effin joke :mad:

Babooshka wrote: »

That's why I try and let some of them just slide past senior management without them noticing or asking about records because there still has to be some understanding of a persons life, if they're allowed to have one, outside their jobs.

I heavily dislike this crap, or letting slackers get away with pulling sickies. Why? Because I'll have to do the extra work load. Always "fun" opening up the cinema a man down, as he was "sick" due to drinking too much the night before...

Babooshka

the_syco wrote: »

Usually happens when someone else has already gotten the time booked off many months in advance (read: 5 or 6 months), and they're in a skeleton/small team.


F**king HR people :mad::rolleyes::mad: Why bother booking holidays off months in advance, and letting the manager know they won't be in so that they could roster someone else on, when you can just "pull a sickie:rolleyes:". Luckily HR in the current company are good. HR in the last company were an effin joke :mad:


I heavily dislike this crap, or letting slackers get away with pulling sickies. Why? Because I'll have to do the extra work load. Always "fun" opening up the cinema a man down, as he was "sick" due to drinking too much the night before...

I already explained why. HR people always get it in the neck anyway.


You're taking my comment about people calling in sick out of context. I already said not the "slackers" who are pulling the p*ss, I don't let that happen , read stuff in length before posting. I'm talking about people who have lost a parent who aren't allowed more than three days compassionate leave because their boss says they're not allowed get paid for any more. You may argue in that case they are sick of course. It's just one example whereby a person has to go get a sick note and "pull a sicky" when in fact they are grieving and not technically sick. There's other examples of course, like accompanying a relative to hospital etc, an ad hoc day that life requires your presence and you're not going to miss being there for any job. Those things.

I didn't condone taking advantage of your colleagues or your boss, I try to do a fair job for all involved but as a HR "person" I will get blamed from both an employer and employee side, but I'm used to it :P

IvyTheTerrible

Babooshka wrote: »

I already explained why. HR people always get it in the neck anyway.


You're taking my comment about people calling in sick out of context. I already said not the "slackers" who are pulling the p*ss, I don't let that happen , read stuff in length before posting. I'm talking about people who have lost a parent who aren't allowed more than three days compassionate leave because their boss says they're not allowed get paid for any more. You may argue in that case they are sick of course. It's just one example whereby a person has to go get a sick note and "pull a sicky" when in fact they are grieving and not technically sick. There's other examples of course, like accompanying a relative to hospital etc, an ad hoc day that life requires your presence and you're not going to miss being there for any job. Those things.

I didn't condone taking advantage of your colleagues or your boss, I try to do a fair job for all involved but as a HR "person" I will get blamed from both an employer and employee side, but I'm used to it :P

But aren't all those instances you mentioned covered by annual leave, rather than fake sickies? I had to take compassionate leave to come home to Ireland for a funeral recently. My company only gives 2 days for immediate family so the rest came out of my annual leave allowance.

Babooshka

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

But aren't all those instances you mentioned covered by annual leave, rather than fake sickies? I had to take compassionate leave to come home to Ireland for a funeral recently. My company only gives 2 days for immediate family so the rest came out of my annual leave allowance.

Yes Ivy sometimes they are, there is compassionate leave at a company's discretion, to 3 days max in a lot of places, it just takes some people a bit longer to get over the death of someone close to them sometimes. I am just saying that sometimes you have your 20 day allocation, and in my place you must hold 4 for Xmas as it's closed, still that's a holiday but a compulsory one, some people would prefer to work and have the other 4 days for some other time during the year, they have 16 days to plan their entire life around outside work for the year, and if they've used those up by August or September, and something happens like a washing machine flooding, or a car breaking down..well, what would you do? It's not ok but what other option is there in those circumstances for a person. I'm just saying sometimes, the odd time, you know that someone's ina pickle and needs time off...let it go. Not cos they've been on the beer and are a waste of space or taking advantage. ....

EDIT: Sorry Op how is he getting on?

gerrycollins

Babooshka wrote: »

Sorry, I was off line till now. Well apologies but no offence was intended and you're not "bad" in my eyes, it's the internet, I don't know you I was commenting on the words you wrote in your first post which if you read them again, do sound very harsh...is that why you wrote out all of the above? I'm sure it is true and you're a good employer but you'd never know that from your first post, you re-read it! As I said I was criticising your statements and not you, as I said I knew nothing of your set up but thanks for enlightening me. Personally I don't care if my boss doesn't know my birthday or if I get squat when it is, as I am a very black and white person when it comes to work and my real life so to speak. The issue here was about calling sick when you're not, and all I was saying was sometimes people have no other option, especiallly when they've requested understanding from an employer, the key words, "no other option" - stuff happens, indeed there are some who just take the mick it's not those people I'm talking about.

I can't retract my opinion however apart from the "barrel of laughs to work for" - that was too personal, so I'm sorry for that.

You began your post with a very begruding "I never believe my staff when they call in sick, however I have a good idea when they're telling the truth" which in itself is contradictory cos if you never believe them even when you think they're telling the truth then that's very harsh but maybe you just got confused with what you typed. I think never believing anything is very mean spirited and distrusting, and immediately puts people on the defence because people can sense from their bosses when they don't trust, so I think the lesser of two evils is sometimes looking the other way when one or two people "pull a fast one" so long as it's not a regular habit. But that's just my way of operating. Thanks for your response.

I just used that person as an example but ironically in 2 years since we opened its the only day I have refused.

However my experience from other places I have worked people who request days off (never mind the time element of it) and are refused still take the day off and call in sick. I cannot quote you percentages of how many would still turn up after been refused but it happens.

Why dont I believe sick calls.

Many get their partner/parents to do it.
They feign sickness and another personal part is why dont they turn up anways Ill send them home and they know it.

When I was staff I would never be comfortable on a day sick because I felt they didnt believe me. I would rather turn up and ask to be sent home or to be sent home(it was a food environment) by the rules.

Maybe thats just me.

so I think the lesser of two evils is sometimes looking the other way when one or two people "pull a fast one" so long as it's not a regular habit.

You said you in HR? Try my position of owning the place and having a bank loan to pay etc then you wont look the other way when your customer maybe lost due to an absence. While the first time may not instigate a regularl habit it sets out a bad element amongst the staff.

I remember that in Dunnes Stores years ago full time staff with over 3 years work experience were entitled to 12 paid sick days but only needed a cert after 3 days out.

However many of these staff actually took these sick days as days off when they needed them. Now if you were caught you were done for but I remember one girl going xmas shopping for 2 days on sick and gettign paid for it and not needing a cert. I found out after overhearing her talking to another girl the following day but I couldnt do anything about it.

So maybe I was burnt years ago but its led me to be careful with my trust.

doolox

We had a day like that when 7 people were looking for the day off for some concert or match or something and all couldn't get it. Bitter rows and acrimony all round. It ended up that one refused muppet spent the day in the toilet or was "unavailable". It probably took full time supervision to get any work out of him that day and we had a skinful of cribs and moans about the "great day" he was missing.
Another muppet called in sick and was spotted on TV at the event...........


........by senior management.

Babooshka

gerrycollins wrote: »

I just used that person as an example but ironically in 2 years since we opened its the only day I have refused.

However my experience from other places I have worked people who request days off (never mind the time element of it) and are refused still take the day off and call in sick. I cannot quote you percentages of how many would still turn up after been refused but it happens.

Why dont I believe sick calls.

Many get their partner/parents to do it.
They feign sickness and another personal part is why dont they turn up anways Ill send them home and they know it.

When I was staff I would never be comfortable on a day sick because I felt they didnt believe me. I would rather turn up and ask to be sent home or to be sent home(it was a food environment) by the rules.

Maybe thats just me.

so I think the lesser of two evils is sometimes looking the other way when one or two people "pull a fast one" so long as it's not a regular habit.

You said you in HR? Try my position of owning the place and having a bank loan to pay etc then you wont look the other way when your customer maybe lost due to an absence. While the first time may not instigate a regularl habit it sets out a bad element amongst the staff.

I remember that in Dunnes Stores years ago full time staff with over 3 years work experience were entitled to 12 paid sick days but only needed a cert after 3 days out.

However many of these staff actually took these sick days as days off when they needed them. Now if you were caught you were done for but I remember one girl going xmas shopping for 2 days on sick and gettign paid for it and not needing a cert. I found out after overhearing her talking to another girl the following day but I couldnt do anything about it.

So maybe I was burnt years ago but its led me to be careful with my trust.

Well believe it or not, I do completely understand all your points and see very much clearer where you're coming from. I suppose from my end of it, from the other angle here, I have a couple of roles in here not just the one. I have called in sick twice in a year due to illness and don't mess the place around, but I am always the one its taken out on when anyone else does, which is rare and I do sometimes know a bit more info then I give sometimes but it is genuinely just to try keeping both sides as fair as I possibly can. I see your reasons and I am really sorry if I came on too strong initially.

I'd still love to know from the Op how it goes as the guy was clearly caught out and I honestly don't know what'd happen in here if that happened as the system is not completely fair, I certainly don't make final decisions on discipline, and all workplaces are different.

gerrycollins

Babooshka wrote: »

I'd still love to know from the Op how it goes as the guy was clearly caught out and I honestly don't know what'd happen in here if that happened as the system is not completely fair, I certainly don't make final decisions on discipline, and all workplaces are different.

From my past experience they are behaving v badly towards him.

thecleverone

Sorry. OP here. He had a meeting today with the company and to cut a long story short, he's back to work on Monday. They traweled through every detail, his fake cover-up, etc etc and the only thing that stood to him in the end, is that he held his hands up and admitted he wasn't sick. Apologised to everyone individually involved. They looked over his past work record and its impeccable. Always working overtime, coming in early, staying late, working saturdays if needs be. Great to work with, very focused so that stood to him as well.

Outcome:
Docked one weeks pay
Can't take sick day for 1 year
Record of this will be kept in file for 12 months

wmpdd3

thecleverone wrote: »

Sorry. OP here. He had a meeting today with the company and to cut a long story short, he's back to work on Monday. They traweled through every detail, his fake cover-up, etc etc and the only thing that stood to him in the end, is that he held his hands up and admitted he wasn't sick. Apologised to everyone individually involved. They looked over his past work record and its impeccable. Always working overtime, coming in early, staying late, working saturdays if needs be. Great to work with, very focused so that stood to him as well.

Outcome:
Docked one weeks pay
Can't take sick day for 1 year
Record of this will be kept in file for 12 months

Am, can't take a sick day for a 1 year.

But what if he's sick......really sick.

See if you had no choice of a sick day then you wouldn't be sick.

gerrycollins

thecleverone wrote: »

Sorry. OP here. He had a meeting today with the company and to cut a long story short, he's back to work on Monday. They traweled through every detail, his fake cover-up, etc etc and the only thing that stood to him in the end, is that he held his hands up and admitted he wasn't sick. Apologised to everyone individually involved. They looked over his past work record and its impeccable. Always working overtime, coming in early, staying late, working saturdays if needs be. Great to work with, very focused so that stood to him as well.

Outcome:
Docked one weeks pay
Can't take sick day for 1 year
Record of this will be kept in file for 12 months

sounds very odd

Canis Lupus

I have taken 1 sick day in 4 years and truth be told that one sick day was a result of being sick of the job (I also had a cold in my defence) and I still felt guilty for at least half the day.

I hate people that take sickies but only because I feel too guilty to do it myself. There is one chap I work with who has already taken more days off sick this year than he gets in ****ing holidays. This was a recurring theme and only recently has HR pulled him up about it and even then it's just a slap on the wrist AND atm the moment he has been off for two weeks genuinely sick!!!

I'm drunk.... I'm not sure what the point of my post is anymore....

shoegirl

Babooshka wrote: »

sometimes people have to pull sickies when they have something pressing in their lives that they can't miss for whatever reason and are out of holidays. Being honest is obviously the best policy but everyone including HR Managers know a certain amount of sickies are for those other things in life that people need to be at apart from the job they're enslaved to. That's why I try and let some of them just slide past senior management without them noticing or asking about records because there still has to be some understanding of a persons life, if they're allowed to have one, outside their jobs.

I actually do think thats very reasonable, but sometimes other employees are left holding the baby and thats the problem. The only thing I will say is that I have noticed in the past that if people work in very stressful workplaces the sickie rates rise exponentially - in one case people's workloads were doubled after a round of redundancies and my colleagues simply couldn't cope and nothing was put into place to deal with it.

I recall from an Open University course I did that Tesco changed their policies around this a few years ago to let people take unpaid leave for "family emergencies" like the ones you allude to. I think thats a good idea - let people take the time off, but with some kind of minor penalty so the message goes out that its not really right to do.

For example I've a colleage who before his wife asked him to leave used to regularly insist on taking time off to bring his kids to the doctor etc, despite the fact that his wife didn't work - I understand he was very controlling and she wasn't allowed work, despite being far, far more qualified than him. He was just refusing to let her take responsibility for it. Thats the kind of thing I mean - if one of the kids are sick and needs attention is reasonable to take time off to deal with it I think, but not if there is a spouse or partner who can deal with the problem.

Same colleague also then started disappearing for 2 hours in the middle of the day to go to counselling sessions after the wife put him out. I could go on at the list of blatant abuses of the very flexible policies and self management that my company offer, but I won't. The point I'm trying to make is if I hear somebody with a repeated pattern of playing the system in other ways says they are "sick" then I would be a little cynical.

Mind you there are others who rarely take time off, or people who are just sick more often. Like I've a sister who has the worst immune system in Ireland - she catches every infection going, she even had glandular fever earlier this year. Now I wouldn't like to punish somebody like her by demanding a sick note for every little episode.

Xiney

dudara wrote: »

Oh, and the days that you are pulling a sickie - don't post on Facebook, Boards etc

Well, if your fb status update is, "Oh god I can barely breathe, I think I have to go to the doctor!" you might be ok :P

hawkmoon269

In my experience people sometimes take sick days because employers fail to provide adequate holidays as per contract and/or legal entitlements. Employers that fail to observe legal requirements will naturally find a 'sick day culture' coming into existence.

bbam

thecleverone wrote: »

Outcome:
Docked one weeks pay
Can't take sick day for 1 year
Record of this will be kept in file for 12 months

This all sounds fair except...
If he's certified sick he can't be insured to be at work...

I've seen this line taken by HR/Managers before and frankly if he's certified then he's covered...they can however hold his certified absence against him during performance review times, he can't be diciplined for it.

davgtrek

interesting thread. it throws up the two sides of society. those who hate people who take sickies and the managers who dont believe them and the companies who stamp it out and squeeze the employess at every opportunity. " i'd rather show up and have the management send me home for being sick". thats the funniest thing i've heard in a long time. chances of this happening are nil. Only if u collapsed would they show mild concern and probably more from worrying about their H&S policies and protocols than anything else.

i'd like to ask the majority of employers their views on someone pulling a sickie because he/she had to mind their sick kid.
Or had an appointment with an establishment that funnily enough doesn't open after 6pm or at weekends.
Or maybe had to make the most of an opportunity to meet/buy/source something that if they were on the manager salary's might be able to do this over the phone or have the stay at home significant other to do it for them.

perhaps they needed a day to actually have some fun & wind down from the very workplace thats obsessed with "bussinness" and doesn't care about staff's personal goals and happinness.

i could go on here and despite a few "mainly american" companies who address these issues and treat their staff as THE MOST IMPORTANT ASSET , the majority of irish employers & companies are pathetic at addressing this. Their assets are their profits and little else matters.

the proof of this is I worked in London in early ninties ( when the IRA were still blowing up stuff, canary wharf etc. ) and despite me being a paddy, the fact i was good at my job and showed some cop on within 2 months they had me on a mamagerial course and career prospects were great.
The english would promote you.

The irish would leave you grind away for years in the same position and take little notice unless you got so hacked off that you started jumping up and down before offering a usually mediocre improvement in sal or position.

So unless you prostitute youself and show all the traits of being owned by the company you rarely progress and this recession has set back employee working conditions and prospects back 15 years. its a bleak few years ahead.

Babooshka

thecleverone wrote: »

Sorry. OP here. He had a meeting today with the company and to cut a long story short, he's back to work on Monday. They traweled through every detail, his fake cover-up, etc etc and the only thing that stood to him in the end, is that he held his hands up and admitted he wasn't sick. Apologised to everyone individually involved. They looked over his past work record and its impeccable. Always working overtime, coming in early, staying late, working saturdays if needs be. Great to work with, very focused so that stood to him as well.

Outcome:
Docked one weeks pay
Can't take sick day for 1 year
Record of this will be kept in file for 12 months

That sounds extremely dodgy to me. You can't ask someone in advance not to take a sick day for a year, it's against the law.
Regardless of what he's done he could get sick any time and if he's been excused for what he's done he could surely turn that around on them and accuse them of discriminating against him for the coming year.
Records are always kept on file anyway so that's not unusual but the rest of it sounds bizarre.

Dave!

gerrycollins wrote: »

I never believe my staff when they ring in sick, however I have a good idea if they are telling the truth.

one staff memeber asked for a day off with a months notice we refused for various reasons. the staff member never came back to us to fight their corner.

Made note of it in holiday book in case other staff who had the day off came back to say they could work it.

When the time came the staff member rang in sick.

Sorry but I didnt come down in the last shower.

Is there anything you (the manager) can do in that situation though? In my last job I requested a couple of nights off for my 21st, 2 or 3 weeks in advance (the manager had a sign up saying that requests had to be that amount of time in advance). The manager rostered me in anyway, I had it out with her over it, she said that not all requests have to be granted (fair enough), and that someone must have taken down my request off the notice board (where requests are usually put) :eek: Nobody else woulda done that besides her

Anyways I ended up calling in sick the day before, I only needed a sick note after 4 days I think, so not much she could do.

Ended up leaving the job because couldn't bear to work with her anymore, she was a c*nt in general. Afterwards I spent about 40 minutes talking to HR about her and outlining her various transgressions She's not longer working there, dunno if she quit, was fired, or transferred, oh well.

Locamon

Dave! wrote: »

Is there anything you (the manager) can do in that situation though? ..... and that someone must have taken down my request off the notice board (where requests are usually put) :eek: Nobody else woulda done that besides her

Anyways I ended up calling in sick the day before, I only needed a sick note after 4 days I think, so not much she could do.

.

sounds like a poor way to process requests for holidays -posting on a board

yeah IMO you're right -there is f*ck all managers can really do in this situation... at a stretch give you a verbal (big stretch). That's why some companies will just sack you if they catch you out on a big sickie lie.

gerrycollins

Dave! wrote: »

Is there anything you (the manager) can do in that situation though? In my last job I requested a couple of nights off for my 21st, 2 or 3 weeks in advance (the manager had a sign up saying that requests had to be that amount of time in advance). The manager rostered me in anyway, I had it out with her over it, she said that not all requests have to be granted (fair enough), and that someone must have taken down my request off the notice board (where requests are usually put) :eek: Nobody else woulda done that besides her

Anyways I ended up calling in sick the day before, I only needed a sick note after 4 days I think, so not much she could do.

Ended up leaving the job because couldn't bear to work with her anymore, she was a c*nt in general. Afterwards I spent about 40 minutes talking to HR about her and outlining her various transgressions She's not longer working there, dunno if she quit, was fired, or transferred, oh well.

I will do everything and anything I can personally to give a staff member a day off but on this time it was not physically impossible.

i'd like to ask the majority of employers their views on someone pulling a sickie because he/she had to mind their sick kid.
Or had an appointment with an establishment that funnily enough doesn't open after 6pm or at weekends.
Or maybe had to make the most of an opportunity to meet/buy/source something that if they were on the manager salary's might be able to do this over the phone or have the stay at home significant other to do it for them

minding a sick kid is ok but again i know some that abused that story.

Personally I have given my staff sufficent notice and oppertunity to organise them selves so they leave nothing to chance they know the rules.

I allow my staff to take days off at a day notice so long as they organise the cover with a suitable person.

I allow/dont mind the sick kid story so long as they either give me more than enough notice or organise cover for themselves.

My staff have a repetitive week so they work the same time each day week in week out so there are no surprises either side. they know where they stand.

The irish would leave you grind away for years in the same position and take little notice unless you got so hacked off that you started jumping up and down before offering a usually mediocre improvement in sal or position

davgtrek on your story of working hard and promotion and progress etc. I started out 12 years ago as a stock room boy in Dunnes Stores. I now own my own shop. Ive always felt its up to the person to push and learn many I have seen over the years dont bother.

davgtrek

"feeling its up to the person to push" is the crux of the argument gerry.
Its the reason most "management" would take advantage of staff rather than reward them. Its the irish thing of "let him off" if he's bustin a gut on a job.
It confirms the fact that most irish companies only value stock/profit, not staff.
The problem is that to "push" you effectively have to say to the boss how pissed off u are at your position/scale and be in a position to leave.
then the boss may "cop on" or give some upgrade or say NO.
But some staff are not in that position to leave/push ( kids, mortgage etc. ) so where does that leave them. screwed in most employers eyes.

I often feel that the small firms association have the most appropriate acronym "SFA". As thats what they would give their employees if they got away with it.

"I allow/dont mind the sick kid story so long as they either give me more than enough notice or organise cover for themselves."

In fairness Gerry do you have kids. Notice is not something that a 5 year old takes on board before getting a temperature.