What to do while cutting...the BB Powerlifitng delima..

the drifter

ok...there has been some heated debates on msn and gmail on this for the past few days...basically tomorrow im looking to start a new program... i asked for a specific BB program in my log and DC ( DoggCrapp) was recommended...this was then shot down and 5-3-1 was decided...then today it was mentioned that this isnt a BB program...

the question i pose to you boardsies is that do you do while cutting...what have you found worked for you...

The background is a powerlifter whos cutting fat but would like to build some muscle at the same time...the lifter doesnt want to be shredded either though

do you do something like 5-3-1 to keep the main lifts in check

Do you do a BB progran and realise that while cutting max gains or miracles are not going to be seen

or do you just pick specific weak points and work on them

has anyone found a specific program good to use while on a low calorie diet / cutting...


i think that covers what im trying to say... i may edit later

discuss....

itsallaboutheL

Drifter you said this thread was going to be amazing.... i want a refund.

It's just going to end up as Hanley telling you the right thing to do and me being annoying just to piss him off.

I think you should go buy a grands worth of Biotest Supps thatd sort you out!!

the drifter

constructive reply.....thanks L that cleared it all right up...

itsallaboutheL

Right i want to point out that Drifter appears to have stated his main goals as..

Lose Fat
and Get Bigger

But it is worth noting that he's going to turn around in September and decide to be a fat powerlifter again..

brianthebard

5/3/1 will easily suit a bodybuilding goal when you use the 5x10 acessory template. However there's not a lot of isolation moves so if you're looking to add size to calves, arms, even traps or other bits you might want to look elsewhere.
There's also the westside for fat bastards template L posted up a while ago, as a former powerlifter I imagine that sort of plan would appeal to you but its tweaked for fat loss.
How long have you been lifting? I was under the impression that DC was for a fairly advanced lifter, you fit the criteria? Its just DC from what I've read and the gains people make with it, seems to be the thing you do when you want to blow up as big as possible, and especially with the extra stress of trying to lose weight, the demands of the programme might be too great and the gains you see not as maximal as if you went hell to leather on the food, recovery supps, etc.

the drifter

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Right i want to point out that Drifter appears to have stated his main goals as..

Lose Fat
and Get Bigger

i know how to lose fat.. i know how to get bigger... im trying to find out has anyone had any luck with a balance...or peoples opinions on this

celestial

You prob have your diet in check already - but it's worth emphasising that most of your results will just come from good old low carbs, good fats, high protein cutting the junk food. I mean, I really don't think it's a case of this programme will get you x amount lean and the other programme a little less lean - the focus should be on diet.

That said, I'd be doing the basics - hitting the big moves, just not as heavy, and throwing in plenty of your isolation stuff too.

Hanley

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

I think you should go buy a grands worth of Biotest Supps thatd sort you out!!

Amazingly, ageed.

Just do the V-Diet.

the drifter

brianthebard wrote: »

5/3/1 will easily suit a bodybuilding goal when you use the 5x10 acessory template. However there's not a lot of isolation moves so if you're looking to add size to calves, arms, even traps or other bits you might want to look elsewhere.
There's also the westside for fat bastards template L posted up a while ago, as a former powerlifter I imagine that sort of plan would appeal to you but its tweaked for fat loss.
How long have you been lifting? I was under the impression that DC was for a fairly advanced lifter, you fit the criteria? Its just DC from what I've read and the gains people make with it, seems to be the thing you do when you want to blow up as big as possible, and especially with the extra stress of trying to lose weight, the demands of the programme might be too great and the gains you see not as maximal as if you went hell to leather on the food, recovery supps, etc.

been lifting on and off 2-3 yrs... been back about 1yr since last break...

itsallaboutheL

How many times a week are you training with Ju Jitsu??

the drifter

2-3 2 an min 3 with extra classes

the drifter

someone asked what assistance i was looking at for the 5-3-1 and i think its going to be Assistance Work #4: Periodization Bible by Dave Tate

itsallaboutheL

Training Ju Jitsu 3 days a week on a calorie deficit while doing a RAW strenght program with maximum assistance is mental in my book.

I'd be looking at two full body BB or Strength days and a conditioning day if i was you

the drifter

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Training Ju Jitsu 3 days a week on a calorie deficit while doing a RAW strenght program with maximum assistance is mental in my book.

I'd be looking at two full body BB or Strength days and a conditioning day if i was you

care to explain the science behind your reasoning?

cardio,shoot me

i say GVT, but i have no experience with any of the programs being mentioned here, so im just sayin do it for the craic

Nate--IRL--

the drifter wrote: »

The background is a powerlifter whos cutting fat but would like to build some muscle at the same time...the lifter doesnt want to be shredded either though


has anyone found a specific program good to use while on a low calorie diet / cutting...

Cutting Fat and building muscle? I've never found that doable, good luck with that, I'm not sure it's even possible. I've found it possible to cut fat and increase strength, but not size.

When I'm cutting, the only change I make is additional cardio, on top of the diet. I keep all the lifts the same. Progress, in additional weight lifted, is much slower while cutting, but all the lifts are maintained, improved on if possible, until the cut is finished.

I'm not going to suggest this is the best way to approach a cut, it's just that it works for me.

Nate

itsallaboutheL

This isn't a for ar against, just my thoughts


[ramble]

Right Drifter is doing 5/3/1

He's using percentages as tue maxes which i believe to be an under sell of his abilities on his part

Goals are fat loss

Some muscle growth

Maintain his Squat Bench and Deadlift

On a Calorie deficit while doing three JuJitsu sessions a week....

Right my thoughts are that if you're doing 5/3/1 you're aims are to get stronger over a period of time,

so why do it if you are happy to stay where you are....

its not that you won't achieve your goals.. you probably will BUT would it not make more sense to do something specific.... to make a template based around fat loss, conditioning for the MA and hypertrophy for the ladies..

If you adapt the 5/3/1 program to the point where its suitable to you at the moment but to where its not the most efficient for both your goals or for what the main aims are the program are then you're selling yourself and the program short.

Thae fact the assistance exercises are so adapable is great.... but if you're not going balls out on the work sets then why do the Program in the first place??? If you're percentages are always slightly off, or you're not pushing yourself to the limit on your last set because you're happy with where you are strength wise and have a half an eye on the assistance exercise to add some bulk.


Why do something so heavily reliant on well thought out percentages and rep ranges for strength progression when it isn't your goal, and when you're not going to (to be able) ((or possibly need to/should)) commit to the basic principal?? esp when running a deficit

I think my point is that it's possible a different template could work better.

Fúck it i dunno what im on about which is pretty obvious!!:)

[/ramble]

Hanley

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

This isn't a for ar against, just my thoughts


[ramble]

Right Drifter is doing 5/3/1

He's using percentages as tue maxes which i believe to be an under sell of his abilities on his part

That's what you're supposed to do.

Goals are fat loss

Some muscle growth

Maintain his Squat Bench and Deadlift

On a Calorie deficit while doing three JuJitsu sessions a week....

Right my thoughts are that if you're doing 5/3/1 you're aims are to get stronger over a period of time,

If he keeps his strength level flat, loses weight and his conditioning goes up, he's gotten relatively stronger. My goal when starting 5/3/1 was to get stronger, but I knew while dieting it would be a serious struggle. Did I do something wrong too?

its not that you won't achieve your goals.. you probably will BUT would it not make more sense to do something specific.... to make a template based around fat loss, conditioning for the MA and hypertrophy for the ladies..

Ummm.... his diet is fairly locked down (fat loss), he's training in Jitz (that covers his MA), he's doing cardio stuff afaik, and look at the volume and exercise selection from his first workout (hypertrophy).

If you adapt the 5/3/1 program to the point where its suitable to you at the moment but to where its not the most efficient for both your goals or for what the main aims are the program are then you're selling yourself and the program short.

What is the most "efficient" program so?? Does one exist??

Wendler, the creator of 5/3/1 used it when he started to condition and bring his weight back down, it's worked seriously well for him. Has he done something wrong too?

Thae fact the assistance exercises are so adapable is great.... but if you're not going balls out on the work sets then why do the Program in the first place??? If you're percentages are always slightly off, or you're not pushing yourself to the limit on your last set because you're happy with where you are strength wise and have a half an eye on the assistance exercise to add some bulk.

What makes you think he's not going balls out?? There's only supposed to be ONE balls out work set, the last one. Serious question, do you actually understand how the program's structured?

Why do something so heavily reliant on well thought out percentages and rep ranges for strength progression when it isn't your goal, and when you're not going to (to be able) ((or possibly need to/should)) commit to the basic principal?? esp when running a deficit

I'm pretty sure he's not actively trying to get weaker, just facing the fact that after losing like 10-12kg already, and trying to drop more weight, getting past his previous PR levels is going to be damn near impssible in the short term. Maintaining PR levels while being 10kg+ under that weight is a very worthy pursuit.

I think my point is that it's possible a different template could work better.

You're not gonna suggest DC again are you??

Fúck it i dunno what im on about which is pretty obvious!!:)

[/ramble]

Well...

itsallaboutheL

Work sets.. as in there's more than one a week Hanley, thats a plural AFAIK

I said at there start it wasn't a for and against just a collection of my thougths. Your a great man for jumping on whatever pedastal you're most familiar with at the moment...

i was just trying to get some objective thinking in..

Would it not have been more constructive for you to look at my post in an constructive manner and say "ya you know what such and such might be another option, and here is what i think it is"...

Jim Wendlar did what worked for Jim Wendlar fair ****s to him he made a program based entirely on his goals at the time, which is what i would like us to try do for Drifter...

Hypothetically speaking If you were looking at Drifters goals diet and training commitments as a paid S and C coach what would your advice be?? IF you could be impartial for a minute and just give a few different options like.

All i want is someone to actually come at this from a different angle.

I would like to think there is always a different approach,I'm sure if there wasn't you'd still be doing Sheiko i'd just like to see a few opinions on the different approaches. There could well be a lot to learn from a brainstorm.


And Hanley i dont pretend to be a ****ing foutain of knowledge so kindly don't blow smoke up my ass


EDIT: re drifters maxes... i dont mean his adapted maxes for the program, i mean what he has taken to be his true max now.

Hanley

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

I said at there start it wasn't a for and against just a collection of my thougths. Your a great man for jumping on whatever pedastal you're most familiar with at the moment...

No, you'll find me speaking from experience on training programs that I've done. Not just pondering random thoughts and forming opinions on looking at how it's structured without having tried it for a decent period of time!

Would it not have been more constructive for you to look at my post in an constructive manner and say "ya you know what such and such might be another option, and here is what i think it is"...

I thought I did that??

Jim Wendlar did what worked for Jim Wendlar fair ****s to him he made a program based entirely on his goals at the time, which is what i would like us to try do for Drifter...

What were Wendlers goals??

What are Drifters goals??

Hypothetically speaking If you were looking at Drifters goals diet and training commitments as a paid S and C coach what would your advice be?? IF you could be impartial for a minute and just give a few different options like.

Moot point... I'm not. And I wouldn't charge him if I was.

But I guess if I was.... I'd say the same things I've been saying to him over the last couple of days.

-Begin with rehab/prehab
-Hit a big lift
-Do some assistance work for your goals/weakpoints
-cardio/condition

Probably gonna tell me that's awful generic now.

All i want is someone to actually come at this from a different angle.

You've got it covered!! Or do you just want someone to agree with ya?

I would like to think there is always a different approach,I'm sure if there wasn't you'd still be doing Sheiko i'd just like to see a few opinions on the different approaches. There could well be a lot to learn from a brainstorm.

Of course there is.... but a lot of roads will lead to the same spot. So what becomes important is whether or not you believe enough in what you're doing to work balls out on it.

And Hanley i dont pretend to be a ****ing foutain of knowledge so kindly don't blow smoke up my ass

Never been a fan of the rusty trumpets anyway to be honest, so glad we're on the same page