Quins fined £215,000 for faked blood injury

leeroybrown

I'm sure that everyone remembers this incident from last years HEC and repeatedly watching the YouTube clips. Well they've found themselves on the wrong end of a £215,000 fine for it. There's an article on the BBC site.

While it's good to see a serious effort to stamp out this kind of cheating, I really do wonder if they'll be able to have a consistent hard line about it, or will teams just get away with it anyway because the incidents don't have the same profile. Are they also going to examine incidents like Julien Dupuy returning to the field at the end of the GP final.

Stev_o

Im more surprised by the year ban for Williams that's beyond harsh for someone who was just a pawn in a failed master plan.

Meh rugby and on field "cheating" always goes on, how about fining teams cough*WASPS*cough for faking prop injuries to go uncontested when they are being destroyed in the scrums.

browne_rob5

Williams definitely dosent deserve that ban. He was only following instructions and can you imagine what Richards would have done to him if he said he wasnt doing it!

Would Quins have the money to pay this?

leeroybrown

The 12 month ban does seem a bit harsh for what was basically an instruction from his employers. Without wanting to open up old arguments, compare that to some of the far lighter sanctions we've seen for gouging recently and other dangerous conduct.

The issue of faked prop injuries could be more adequately tackled by adding an extra specialist prop to the bench. You also get the benefits of having a chance to develop more props too and the option of props playing less minutes over a season.

Gelio

They deserved the fine but the ban sounds harsh, appeal will follow

Mayoegian

browne_rob5 wrote: »

Williams definitely dosent deserve that ban. He was only following instructions and can you imagine what Richards would have done to him if he said he wasnt doing it!

Would Quins have the money to pay this?

He did deserve the ban. He lied, cheated and was totally cunning with this plot. He was even as daring as to wink coming off the field. When you play with a team, you are expected to obey the rules, they're not there to be broken. If he was a real, decent player he wouldnt have done this, and if it was his manager that pushed him, he shouldnt have let himself be pushed into something as devious as this.

Ban fully deserved.

CatFromHue

its interesting to note that the two guys from the medical team and dean richards had the cases against them dismissed.
how did the fake blood get im williams mouth then?
i do feel a bit bad for the guy, thats a long long ban but he he did act up and knew what he was doing.
it doesnt all add up though and the powers that be have taken the easy option

leeroybrown

browne_rob5 wrote: »

Would Quins have the money to pay this?

They should do. Half of it appears to be suspended for two years so it's a more manageable amount. While they have a small ground (12,000) they'll pull a huge amount of cash by switching a big Christmas fixture to Twickenham. They got 50,000 (sold out) in for Leicester last year and they're supposed to be trying to get permission to use the full 82,000 this year.

gosplan

Much as I love rugby, some of its supporters tend to be quite annoying when they're having a go at football for the whole cheating/diving thing.

BBC say half the fine suspended for 2 years. Still a serious wedge of cash for 'Quins though.

Someone should really stand up for Williams on this one. If it takes someone upstairs falling on their sword for it, then fair enough, but what the hell was he supposed to do about it?

gosplan

Question: What the hell would have happened if Evan's drop goal had have gone over?

Maybe the ERC committee realised that if it had, they would have been totally f*cked, and decided to come down on everyone like a tonne of bricks in the hope of avoiding such a situation.

Stev_o

Mayoegian wrote: »

He did deserve the ban. He lied, cheated and was totally cunning with this plot. He was even as daring as to wink coming off the field. When you play with a team, you are expected to obey the rules, they're not there to be broken. If he was a real, decent player he wouldnt have done this, and if it was his manager that pushed him, he shouldnt have let himself be pushed into something as devious as this.

Ban fully deserved.

God forbid you ever watch Richie McCaw and New Zealand play i think it might completely put you off rugby completely.

leeroybrown

gosplan wrote: »

Question: What the hell would have happened if Evan's drop goal had have gone over?

If Quins had won the game I'd imagine that they'd have had to convene the inquiry mid tournament. The investigation was announced within a week of the game. Realistically, if they had come up with same finding the only option would have been to kick Quins out of the competition. They're extremely lucky as it would have been a horrible legal mess.

PCPhoto

meh .... at least now players will think twice about breaking the rules

and clubs will think seriously about trying to do this (again)

[Jackass]

I'm delighted with this but don't feel it goes far enough. Harlequins should be thrown out of the 2009/10 Heineken Cup also.

It is absolutely disgraceful what they did, and if that last drop goal had landed, Leinster would still be bottlers yada yada yada and it would have denied a team thier first Heineken Cup - a massive achievement, which if they had sucsessfully cheated the result, we never would have known and a massive honour for a team would have been robbed. The impact it could have had on the sport as a whole, they brought it massively into disrupute and there is no way any team should be able to expect to get away with such blatant cheating.

I think the financial burden this will put on Quins will make teams wonder if it is worth risking so much for a match, the ban on Williams for 1 year is the best part, as while it does make a scape goat of him, you can be sure that no player will want to risk a year of their career to participate in cheating during a match and it also makes it a lot more difficult for coaching staff to ask of a player to cheat when they know what's at stake.

As I said though, I'm disapointed they haven't been kicked out of the competition for it also, but other than that, I think it is absolutely bang on punishment.

Unfortunately the fine and suspension will both be halfed on appeal as is usually the case. If it's not I will have a lot of faith and respect for the disciplanary process in rugby. A lot of very big calls have been made and heavy punishment rightfully handed down to take the cheating and scum element out of the game and long may it continue.

I also agree on the point about Wasps, and the prop injury scenario, but unfrotunatley that is a lot more difficult to prove. But a process should definitley be put in place to stamp it out. For example teams who repeatedly abuse the rule will have to have 2 props on the bench, to 3 props on the bench etc. etc. until they are regularly finishing games with 2 fit props on the field.

[Jackass]

gosplan wrote: »

Question: What the hell would have happened if Evan's drop goal had have gone over?

Maybe the ERC committee realised that if it had, they would have been totally f*cked, and decided to come down on everyone like a tonne of bricks in the hope of avoiding such a situation.

This is very true also...it would have been mayhem if the drop goal had gone over...I remember posting at the time that it could have caused legal actions, replays, complete chaos in the tournament...if it had just played on with Quins in the semi, then ERC couldn't have punsihed them, because then Leinster could come back and demand that they were knocked out as the result of cheating and therefore did not lose the match by proper and fair means.

CatFromHue

i wonder what the quins fan think of it?
im sure they must have had their suspicions when it hasppened too

Stev_o

The fact is year ban for a player who cheated on the field who's only purpose was to help his team have the slimmest chance to win the match is more frowned about then someone who like Burger who physically harmed another player in a serious manner and another player who brought the game into disrepute.

It's completely stupid, fine should stand but the ban? Come on people shall we just ban every single open side flanker in the world now for being a cheating breed? Should professional fouls now carry the penalty of a ban instead of 10 minutes in the bin?

ch2008

Completely agree with the ban, although the management should probably receive some sort of sanction IMO. Also delighted that it wasn't just paranoia (sorry,couldn't resist)

Hyperbullet

Stev_o wrote: »

The fact is year ban for a player who cheated on the field who's only purpose was to help his team have the slimmest chance to win the match is more frowned about then someone who like Burger who physically harmed another player in a serious manner and another player who brought the game into disrepute.

It's completely stupid, fine should stand but the ban? Come on people shall we just ban every single open side flanker in the world now for being a cheating breed? Should professional fouls now carry the penalty of a ban instead of 10 minutes in the bin?

Agreed that there seems to be alot of variances when it comes to laying down the law as of late. However this action was obviously taken to make an example out of Quins and the player involved.

[Jackass]

Stev_o wrote: »

The fact is year ban for a player who cheated on the field who's only purpose was to help his team have the slimmest chance to win the match is more frowned about then someone who like Burger who physically harmed another player in a serious manner and another player who brought the game into disrepute.

It's completely stupid, fine should stand but the ban? Come on people shall we just ban every single open side flanker in the world now for being a cheating breed? Should professional fouls now carry the penalty of a ban instead of 10 minutes in the bin?

No, this is major cheating the whole competition and is at the highest end of collaberation and trying to cheat through the tournament and match.

Individuals who cheat on the field i.e. regular back row infringments, can be warned, can be punished on field with a card, or for physical attacks that aren't dealt with on the field, can be cited and receive 2 - 3 month bans for gouging etc. which seems to be the norm.

This type of cheating is cheating the result of the game and imo (and apperantly ERC) is at the highest end of disripute you can bring the game.

For his participation he deserves his 12 month ban, the club deserves it's hefty fine, but the club should also get a 12 month ban from European competition. Imagine the mess if a result was rigged through cheating, in a knock competition, all the complexities and issue that would have arose....the whole competition could have been thrown into a tail spin with say Leinster disputing their status as being elimenated, Quins disputing their status as progressing, Munster would probably be challanging the status of holding on to their 3rd Heineken Cup and little would we have known, that would have been Leinsters crown, but they were cheated out of it.

No way. I don't think it's harsh enough. Quins should be thrown out of the competition for it too. But the fine and player ban at least sets out a clear message that players who participate in this cynical pre-planned cheating will be most severly dealt with and it'll be very difficult to ask or expect a player to do it again, and Quins will be paying off this fine for their stupidity for years, and more than likely wont be trying anything like it again...and English teams who like to keep their books in the black will be nervous about attempting any cheating now also...it's a good call by ERC.

Gelio

Mayoegian wrote: »

He did deserve the ban. He lied, cheated and was totally cunning with this plot. He was even as daring as to wink coming off the field. When you play with a team, you are expected to obey the rules, they're not there to be broken. If he was a real, decent player he wouldnt have done this, and if it was his manager that pushed him, he shouldnt have let himself be pushed into something as devious as this.

Ban fully deserved.

You are being way too harsh on the guy. This sort of thing happens the whole time in club rugby (oh sir he has a nose bleed etc.)
If your going to suspend W, you might as well punish others such as Evans who must of known and the manager. A punishment is understandable, but 12 months? Clearly what happend was, he was given something and told to put it in his mouth and make it look like blood. The only other explanation I can think of is it was planned out and explained to the team or at least a few members of the team before the match. In which case they should find out which players know.
No the person in the wrong is the person who organised there to be fake blood brought into the stadium, because this is the person who had it planned out and was fully willing to do it from the start (and not put under pressure to do it in the last minute in front of a huge crowd of spectators) Whoever brought in the fake blood knew what they were doing and probably had the fake blood for previous matches also.
Just think of it like this: If you were playing on a rugby pitch in the semi-final of the heini and you loved your club, would you do it? Fake an injury to let a player onto the pitch who could win the match for you? I'm not saying what Williams did was right, It was wrong and he shouldn't of done it, but, its a tough position to be put in. Anything could have been said to him. Now because of the wink I doubt it was anything too bad but his commitment to the team could have been questioned. What would his teammates have said to him if he didn't do it and they lost? As far as they would of known they would have won the match if he had done it. And how would he feel if he didn't do it and they lost? He would know he had done the right thing but underneath there would still be a little bit of guilt. Even though he would have done the right thing as far as he would have known they had lost the match because of him. Making him question what is right. What is right to us might be very different to what is right to him. Is letting down your team just to stay out of trouble the right thing? All this going through his head in that short amount of time.
I can also understand why such a big penalty is being given out. To scare others off from doing the same thing and making the same mistake but I still think they have the wrong guy as I already said they need to find the guy who planned it out and organised it from the start and knew what he was doing
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe he knew all along and knew what was at stake and how wrong it was. But I just think 12 months is too much. In fairness rules are made to be broken, and with regards to rucking etc. your not breaking the rules if you get away with it. Its what pro rugby players do, they live on the line between what is right and what is wrong in regards to the rules. This guy broke the rules. I know its on a large scale and it could have cost us the match (yes, I am a Leinster fan sticking up for him BTW) but the ban on him is unfair. There is no way he had any idea how seriously this would be taken, not at the time anyway. I don't know how many posts have been made since I started writing this so some of my points may have already been said.

AJ

Crash

Pissed that Richards and the med staff got away scot free- they deserve bigger sanctions than Williams do to be honest.

ch2008

Crash wrote: »

Pissed that Richards and the med staff got away scot free- they deserve bigger sanctions than Williams do to be honest.

Completely agree. How many players would say no if the management told them to do this. Richards should know better

Gelio

Crash wrote: »

Pissed that Richards and the med staff got away scot free- they deserve bigger sanctions than Williams do to be honest.

Thats exactly what I was saying, they were the ones that brought in the fake blood

Diabhal Beag

Poor Williams. He was under orders from those who pay him his wages and could have refused in all honesty.

Richards is a different story though. He's a piece of work :mad:

danthefan

Guess they couldn't prove Richards or anyone else was involved so hammered Williams. It'll make any player think twice in future anyway.

laugh

Maybe the management team went to the hearing with a strong bull**** defence and they decided ok we have this player winking on camera we will land him with all the pain.

Crash

As others have mentioned - the only one who's blatantly caught red-handed in the entire thing is Williams. Difficult enough to prove Richards and the med team directly responsible for this.

gucci

Crash wrote: »

Pissed that Richards and the med staff got away scot free- they deserve bigger sanctions than Williams do to be honest.

Exactly, this was clearly something that was pre-rehearsed or prepared to some level, with Evans etc on the bike on the bench. How they got away with it completely is bizarre.

danthefan

Crash wrote: »

As others have mentioned - the only one who's blatantly caught red-handed in the entire thing is Williams. Difficult enough to prove Richards and the med team directly responsible for this.

It would seem Quins have hung him out to dry though.

the immortals

[Jackass] wrote: »

I'm delighted with this but don't feel it goes far enough. Harlequins should be thrown out of the 2009/10 Heineken Cup also.

It is absolutely disgraceful what they did, and if that last drop goal had landed, Leinster would still be bottlers yada yada yada and it would have denied a team thier first Heineken Cup - a massive achievement, which if they had sucsessfully cheated the result, we never would have known and a massive honour for a team would have been robbed. The impact it could have had on the sport as a whole, they brought it massively into disrupute and there is no way any team should be able to expect to get away with such blatant cheating.

I think the financial burden this will put on Quins will make teams wonder if it is worth risking so much for a match, the ban on Williams for 1 year is the best part, as while it does make a scape goat of him, you can be sure that no player will want to risk a year of their career to participate in cheating during a match and it also makes it a lot more difficult for coaching staff to ask of a player to cheat when they know what's at stake.

As I said though, I'm disapointed they haven't been kicked out of the competition for it also, but other than that, I think it is absolutely bang on punishment.

Unfortunately the fine and suspension will both be halfed on appeal as is usually the case. If it's not I will have a lot of faith and respect for the disciplanary process in rugby. A lot of very big calls have been made and heavy punishment rightfully handed down to take the cheating and scum element out of the game and long may it continue.

I also agree on the point about Wasps, and the prop injury scenario, but unfrotunatley that is a lot more difficult to prove. But a process should definitley be put in place to stamp it out. For example teams who repeatedly abuse the rule will have to have 2 props on the bench, to 3 props on the bench etc. etc. until they are regularly finishing games with 2 fit props on the field.

+1 banned from 09/10 h cup would have been fully deserved instead of making williams the fall guy

d'Oracle

Strange, strange decision.

Weren't Quins relegated years back, but the rules got changed to let them back in?

Its a big conspiracy.
Quins are the Rothschilds of rugby.:D

Amabokke

Deserved the ban 100% and more. This kind of cheating does not belong in rugby. What will be next ?? The days of hard tough men fighting it out on a rugby pitch is dissapearing rapidly and we saw more stupid things happen in rugby these days.

danthefan

d'Oracle wrote: »

Strange, strange decision.

Weren't Quins relegated years back, but the rules got changed to let them back in?

Its a big conspiracy.
Quins are the Rothschilds of rugby.:D

No, they got relegated then got promoted the next season.

thomond2006

I think Dean Richards is one lucky ****er.

His teams have a habit of cheating, remember The Hand of Back when Richards coached Leicester?

How the ERC can let off the management is beyond me.

danthefan

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think Dean Richards is one lucky ****er.

His teams have a habit of cheating, remember The Hand of Back when Richards coached Leicester?

How the ERC can let off the management is beyond me.

As I said elsewhere the Hand of Back is a bit different. In fact it's totally different, it's the kind of thing you applaud an openside for if they get away with it.

Amabokke

thomond2006 wrote: »

His teams have a habit of cheating, remember The Hand of Back when Richards coached Leicester?

Was this the hand in the scrum against Munster and slapped it away from Stringer? Disgracefull. Real rugby players dont cheat.

OldJay

Amabokke wrote: »

Real rugby players dont cheat.

??????
:eek:

yimrsg

Perhaps the severity of the ban handed down to the player is for the management and doctors at quins getting away with it whilst Williams takes the flak. Maybe the length of the ban is to force the upper echelons at quins to come out and defend the player and lay blame at those responsible for the fraud.

Also would like to see them thrown out of Heineken cup this season, sends a clear message. I was trying to go through all the potential ramifications had there been a quins victory over leinster, and they progressed through to the final, maybe could have disrupted the Lions tour.

OldJay

thomond2006 wrote: »

How the ERC can let off the management is beyond me.

Because they cannot legally prove their involvement.

thomond2006

Amabokke wrote: »

Was this the hand in the scrum against Munster and slapped it away from Stringer? Disgracefull. Real rugby players dont cheat.

Correct, I was one angry fan that day. :mad::mad::(:(

justsomebloke

Amabokke wrote: »

Real rugby players dont cheat.

truthfully real rugby players don't get caught more then don't cheat. Seriously if it wasn't for his own stupidity in winking chances are this would never have been such an issue as it probably would of been too hard to prove anything

Zzippy

Amabokke wrote: »

Was this the hand in the scrum against Munster and slapped it away from Stringer? Disgracefull. Real rugby players dont cheat.

LOL! I guess Burger isn't a real rugby player then??

Gelio

Amabokke wrote: »

Was this the hand in the scrum against Munster and slapped it away from Stringer? Disgracefull. Real rugby players dont cheat.

What? Yes they do, all the time. If things had been the other way around not one Munster fan would have complained. You clearly have never played in the pack before. If I had done that I would be proud.

TarfHead

thomond2006 wrote: »

His teams have a habit of cheating, remember The Hand of Back when Richards coached Leicester?

So, what Back did was on Richards' instruction :rolleyes: ?

And, if he had not, Munster definitely would have scored off a set-piece - something they had conspicuously failed to do in the preceding 70+ minutes.

Why do people refer to that as the Hand of Back final, and not the Austin Healy running though Ronan O'Gara Final :rolleyes: ?

Back on topic .. Tom Williams is hard done by here. Good job Harlequins did not win, or we could be facing a long Sheffield United West Ham type legal battle for restitution.

Digifriendly

ajeffares wrote: »

What? Yes they do, all the time. If things had been the other way around not one Munster fan would have complained. You clearly have never played in the pack before. If I had done that I would be proud.

Proud of cheating? I would be ashamed - cheating is cheating whatever way you want to dress it up.

Nemesis

Is there a report on someone testing the blood and if the blood was fake was Williams asked where did he get it?

danthefan

Digifriendly wrote: »

Proud of cheating? I would be ashamed - cheating is cheating whatever way you want to dress it up.

Nah, not at all. Forwards, and backrows especially have to live on the very edge of the laws and should try and get away with absolutely everything they can. It's a part of the game, has been forever and will be forever.

ozt9vdujny3srf

You're right, but it's a bad part of the game thats only there because its very difficult to police. I'm not unrealistic by any means, I know that the reality is in order to compete, you have to take every edge you can, and that includes bending the rules when you can get away with it, I just don't agree that that's a good thing.

Gelio

Digifriendly wrote: »

Proud of cheating? I would be ashamed - cheating is cheating whatever way you want to dress it up.

Cheating is a major part of rugby and makes it more exciting, I'll give you an example: I play rugby and if I'm at the bottom of the ruck when its the oppositions ball I often grab the arm of the SH at the bottom of the ball this means the ball still gets out but it bobbles along the ground looking like a bad pass, I have never been caught in a match.
If you actually play rugby you will figure that out;)

Digifriendly

If cheating is part of the game is this not a sad reflection on the game or maybe on our society today?