History of Irish Cable

Elmo

Anyone know of any good books to read about the history of Irish cable? or any good links to show when companies where set up and with whom the merged with? I.e. what companies are now Chorus NTL.

Cupart

Have you checked wikipedia?

(Don't believe everything that's in there though)

Elmo

Cupart wrote: »

Have you checked wikipedia?

(Don't believe everything that's in there though)

Yeah but it is quite vague about the companies that came before Cablelink, like Phonix and RTÉ Relays.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTL_Ireland#RT.C3.89_.2F_Telecom_.C3.89ireann_ownership

watty

Some people here know.
Be patient.

The tax man

Cupart wrote: »

Have you checked wikipedia?

(Don't believe everything that's in there though)

*especially HD content channels*

Cupart

The tax man wrote: »

*especially HD content channels*

I believe these were removed a couple of days ago from Wikipedia. I think I may recall that it was a few Sky HD channels (real lives and +1) and MTV HD which actually never were in any of the UPC HD test streams.

I have only been able to pick up Eurosport HD, Discovery HD and National Geography HD in the streams (not actually being able to watch them of course as there is no UPC HD receiver available for us non testers)... :mad:

Elmo

Cupart wrote: »

I believe these were removed a couple of days ago from Wikipedia. I think I may recall that it was a few Sky HD channels (real lives and +1) and MTV HD which actually never were in any of the UPC HD test streams.

I have only been able to pick up Eurosport HD, Discovery HD and National Geography HD in the streams (not actually being able to watch them of course as there is no UPC HD receiver available for us non testers)... :mad:

None of this is history yet!

Antenna

introduction of MMDS to Ireland in early 1990 -
the first commercial premises in the country to get it installed - a pub in Adare, Co. Limerick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCFBSjuiyUY

Cupart

Elmo wrote: »

None of this is history yet!

Sorry, but I don't follow you?

Freddie59

Antenna wrote: »

introduction of MMDS to Ireland in early 1990 -
the first commercial premises in the country to get it installed - a pub in Adare, Co. Limerick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCFBSjuiyUY

Excellent quality.

Good post.:)

Elmo

Cupart wrote: »

Sorry, but I don't follow you?

UPC HD is only in a test phase, I will be interested when they role it out fully

zilog_jones

Antenna wrote: »

introduction of MMDS to Ireland in early 1990 -
the first commercial premises in the country to get it installed - a pub in Adare, Co. Limerick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCFBSjuiyUY

Very useful info there. So Horizon Multichannel operated in Co. Limerick? Did they only do MMDS? I take it they operated in Clare and other surrounding areas? I remember seeing newfangled MMDS in Clare in the early '90s.

It was originally Westward Cables who operated in Limerick city. I know they were installing cable in the city around 1984 but don't know exact start and completion dates. They used to sell their own TV guide around the early '90s, a cheap photocopied thing on coloured A5 paper (did the RTÉ Guide not have cable/sat channels back then?). They used to give out nice looking decoders with SCART sockets, not sure when they changed over to the Jerrold/GI muck. During the Irish Multichannel years (maybe before too) they had the "Information Channel", some static images (local ads etc.) on rotation running off an Amiga 500. It may have been lost in a fire in their city centre offices around 2000 - they soon changed to a similar channel sourced from Cork.

Not sure when exactly the Irish Multichannel merger happened, I know it existed as early as 1998.

There's also this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorus_Communications
But it's a mess and quite out of date...

icdg

I wrote a lot of stuff on this for the old ICDG website, it might still be on the net somewhere...

I did a family tree there, but it doesn't format properly so I might as well give a brief history of Chorus and NTL.

NTL Ireland had its roots in RTÉ's cable operation, RTÉ Relays, which began in 1970. RTÉ later took over three other cable companies, Dublin Cable Systems (Phoenix-Marlin), Waterford Cablevision, and Galway Cablevision. In 1986 all these companies became Cablelink. In 1990 RTÉ sold a 60% share in Cablelink to Telecom and in 1999 RTÉ and Telecom were ordered to sell the company, the winners being NTL (now Virgin Media).

Chorus has its roots in the Independent Newspapers/TCI buy-up of MMDS franchises under their joint venture Princes Holdings (Horizon Multichannel and East Coast Multichannel) operations in the early 1990s. The cable side came from stakes Princes Holdings built up in Cork Communications which had been established as far back as the early 1980s and Westward Cable which dated from the same era. By the mid 1990s, Princes Holdings operations were all dual branded under the "Multichannel" brand and by the late 1990s they had moved to a single "Irish Multichannel" brand. Meanwhile, outside of Cork and Limerick, lots of the small town cable companies had been both by the CMI (Cable Management Ireland) group which was back by a group of Irish investors including none other than Mike Murphy of RTÉ fame. In 2000, Irish Multichannel bought CMI and another small operator, Suir Nore Relays and became Chorus.

Independent sold its 50% share of Chorus in 2004 to Liberty Global which had grew out of the international operations of TCI. Then, when NTL put the Irish operation up for sale, Liberty Global snapped at the chance to buy and did so in 2005. The two companies ran seperately before beginning an integration process which led to them both being rebranded Chorus NTL in 2007. It is assumed they will be eventually rebranded UPC Ireland, but a final date for that to happen has yet to be announced.

Elmo

zilog_jones wrote: »

did the RTÉ Guide not have cable/sat channels back then?

No not until the mid-1990s, I even think in 1996 the RTÉ guide only gave the listings for RTE ONE, Network 2 and TnaG. But I do remember letters into their Mailbag show asking for the UK channels to be put in, it wasn't called mailbag then!

Skyhater

icdg wrote: »

...... It is assumed they will be eventually rebranded UPC Ireland, but a final date for that to happen has yet to be announced.

This must be the longest re-brand in history.
What other company would be called Chorus-NTL and have a website upc.ie
It's not as if Chorus or NTL had a great reputation that needed to be kept.

Why are they taking so long? Answers on a postcard to............

Elmo

icdg wrote: »

I wrote a lot of stuff on this for the old ICDG website, it might still be on the net somewhere...

I did a family tree there, but it doesn't format properly so I might as well give a brief history of Chorus and NTL.

NTL Ireland had its roots in RTÉ's cable operation, RTÉ Relays, which began in 1970. RTÉ later took over three other cable companies, Dublin Cable Systems (Phoenix-Marlin), Waterford Cablevision, and Galway Cablevision. In 1986 all these companies became Cablelink. In 1990 RTÉ sold a 60% share in Cablelink to Telecom and in 1999 RTÉ and Telecom were ordered to sell the company, the winners being NTL (now Virgin Media).

Chorus has its roots in the Independent Newspapers/TCI buy-up of MMDS franchises under their joint venture Princes Holdings (Horizon Multichannel and East Coast Multichannel) operations in the early 1990s. The cable side came from stakes Princes Holdings built up in Cork Communications which had been established as far back as the early 1980s and Westward Cable which dated from the same era. By the mid 1990s, Princes Holdings operations were all dual branded under the "Multichannel" brand and by the late 1990s they had moved to a single "Irish Multichannel" brand. Meanwhile, outside of Cork and Limerick, lots of the small town cable companies had been both by the CMI (Cable Management Ireland) group which was back by a group of Irish investors including none other than Mike Murphy of RTÉ fame. In 2000, Irish Multichannel bought CMI and another small operator, Suir Nore Relays and became Chorus.

Independent sold its 50% share of Chorus in 2004 to Liberty Global which had grew out of the international operations of TCI. Then, when NTL put the Irish operation up for sale, Liberty Global snapped at the chance to buy and did so in 2005. The two companies ran seperately before beginning an integration process which led to them both being rebranded Chorus NTL in 2007. It is assumed they will be eventually rebranded UPC Ireland, but a final date for that to happen has yet to be announced.

What about the smaller companies around the country that still exist what are the providing and when did they start up?

Elmo

Skyhater wrote: »

This must be the longest re-brand in history.
What other company would be called Chorus-NTL and have a website upc.ie
It's not as if Chorus or NTL had a great reputation that needed to be kept.

Why are they taking so long? Answers on a postcard to............

Because Chorus NTL don't have a good rep. They want to sort that out before rebranding to UPC.

Skyhater

Elmo wrote: »

Because Chorus NTL don't have a good rep. They want to sort that out before rebranding to UPC.

Then why even mention the word UPC?
They use it as their website name, and thus it's used on all advertising, it's on the bills, etc.
UPC could easily own Chrous-NTL without Joe Public knowing a thing.... Then when they sort everything out.... they could re-brand.
This double brand approach makes no sense at all.

Elmo

Skyhater wrote: »

Then why even mention the word UPC?
They use it as their website name, and thus it's used on all advertising, it's on the bills, etc.
UPC could easily own Chrous-NTL without Joe Public knowing a thing.... Then when they sort everything out.... they could re-brand.
This double brand approach makes no sense at all.

I call it UPC and people get confused then I say NTL and then they tell me they don't have NTL they have Chorus

watty

The adverts have all three names at present. The vans just UPC.

Blisterman

Why is it still called NTL in Ireland, while in England, it's called Virgin Media?

Elmo

Blisterman wrote: »

Why is it still called NTL in Ireland, while in England, it's called Virgin Media?

It is a different company. NTL UK bought Cablelink and rebranded to NTL. NTL in the US went bankrupted and in the UK merged with Telewest (and another company), NTL Telewest then sold of NTL Ireland to the owners of Chorus (Liberty Global). Liberty Global then rebranded the firm as Chorus NTL. Liberty Global own the European cable company UPC, they plan to relauch Chorus NTL in the near future as UPC. NTL does not exist anymore.

Virgin Media do not trade in the Republic Of Ireland. They now own NTL Telewest.

Freddie59

icdg wrote: »

I wrote a lot of stuff on this for the old ICDG website, it might still be on the net somewhere...

I did a family tree there, but it doesn't format properly so I might as well give a brief history of Chorus and NTL.

NTL Ireland had its roots in RTÉ's cable operation, RTÉ Relays, which began in 1970. RTÉ later took over three other cable companies, Dublin Cable Systems (Phoenix-Marlin), Waterford Cablevision, and Galway Cablevision. In 1986 all these companies became Cablelink. In 1990 RTÉ sold a 60% share in Cablelink to Telecom and in 1999 RTÉ and Telecom were ordered to sell the company, the winners being NTL (now Virgin Media).

Chorus has its roots in the Independent Newspapers/TCI buy-up of MMDS franchises under their joint venture Princes Holdings (Horizon Multichannel and East Coast Multichannel) operations in the early 1990s. The cable side came from stakes Princes Holdings built up in Cork Communications which had been established as far back as the early 1980s and Westward Cable which dated from the same era. By the mid 1990s, Princes Holdings operations were all dual branded under the "Multichannel" brand and by the late 1990s they had moved to a single "Irish Multichannel" brand. Meanwhile, outside of Cork and Limerick, lots of the small town cable companies had been both by the CMI (Cable Management Ireland) group which was back by a group of Irish investors including none other than Mike Murphy of RTÉ fame. In 2000, Irish Multichannel bought CMI and another small operator, Suir Nore Relays and became Chorus.

Independent sold its 50% share of Chorus in 2004 to Liberty Global which had grew out of the international operations of TCI. Then, when NTL put the Irish operation up for sale, Liberty Global snapped at the chance to buy and did so in 2005. The two companies ran seperately before beginning an integration process which led to them both being rebranded Chorus NTL in 2007. It is assumed they will be eventually rebranded UPC Ireland, but a final date for that to happen has yet to be announced.

Only a couple of points to add:

RTE were commissioned to cable the Ballymun flats in (I think) 1968 or so. Thus RTE Relays was born. Two other large operators (Marlin and Phoenix) subsequently covered sections of Dublin at the time.

Marlin cabled the first major City outside Dublin (Waterford) in 1974, when the 500 homes to one mast rule was abolished.

These were subsequently bought in the mid-70s by Premier Cablevision of Canada.

Marlin and Phoenix merged, and the merged operation was bought in 1981 by Rogers Cablesystems of Canada. This also brought the then-Waterford Cablevision into the fold. Cork, Galway, and Limerick did not exist at this point.

Over the next few years Cork was cabled (Cork Multichannel) in, I think 1984/5. Around the same time Galway commenced (Connaught Multichannel) and then Limerick (Westward Cables).

In 1984, the story goes, Rogers wanted the rest of Dublin and RTE refused. Rogers then said to RTE that they were out - and RTE bought the then- Cablesystems (Dublin and Waterford). Galway was bought, I think, in 1986 or so. Cablelink was born.

Westward Cables was then taken over by Horizon, then Princes Holdings, and Cork/Limerick became Irish Multichannel. Irish Multichannel subsequently bought up the majority of the smaller operators around the country.

Chorus was born. And subsequently bought by UPC in 2005.

NTL bought Cablelink in 1999 and sold it to UPC in 2006.

I stand corrected, but I think that is the correct sequence.

But what no-one has mentioned here is an Irish operator which is (and has been for thirty years) at the cutting edge of Cable TV/broadband in this country.

In 1979 Casey Cablevision built what was then the longest TV Cable line in Europe (BBC/ITV received at Seefin in the Comeragh Mountains and transported to Dungarvan, County Waterford), 16 miles in length, only superseded by the link to Cork some years later, which was one of the longest in the world at 60 miles.

These lines were built due to the draconian laws in force regarding the use of microwave at the time. In hindsight the laws were idiotic. The money spent on building these humongous 'super-trunks' could have been better invested in the networks proper - but this was 1970s/80s Ireland....and Europe.

The Casey family remain at the forefront, with speeds of 30 Megs and one of the most modern cable systems in the world. And we constantly complain about lack of innovation in this country.

Antenna

Freddie59 wrote: »

Over the next few years Cork was cabled (Cork Multichannel) in, I think 1984/5. Around the same time Galway commenced (Connaught Multichannel) and then Limerick (Westward Cables).

I reliably know it was 1982 that Cork Multichannel began cabling Cork city.

The technical details would be interesting if someone can tell us more than I know-

They (with Canadian technical consultants) originally built a receiving point for what was hoped reliable good reception of the UK channels in the Knockmealdown Mountains, and laid a trunk cable back to Cork city going along the roadside through nearby Lismore, Tallow, (those two small towns were also to be cabled) to the outskirts of Midleton from where the remainder of the journey to Cork city the cable was laid alongside the railway line.
However it transpired that reception on the Knockmealdown mountains was unsatisfactory! They then did a deal (and swallowed their pride?) to use the receiving point at Seefin Mountain in mid Co. Waterford of the Dungarvan cable service, so this involved laying cable from their existing cable at Lismore through Cappoquin (which was also to be cabled) to link up with the Dungarvan 'trunk' cable.

Note if they had decided to use the Dungarvan cable from Day 1, a shorter cable route to Cork city would have been via Youghal.

After about a decade of use the long cable run to Cork city was decommissioned in the early 1990s when microwave links were allowed, with Northern Irish reception provided instead. Cork Multichannel's mini-cable networks in the three small towns of Tallow, Lismore, Cappoquin in west Waterford on the 'super-trunk' route were changed over to being fed from MMDS.

The light-green amplifier boxes at intervals alongside the roadside route have since then mostly disappeared, but attached is a picture of one remaining one spotted just outside Tallow on the road to Lismore a few months ago!

watty

Liberty thus via UPC and previous subsidiary owned Chorus twice.

Blisterman

Had no idea Ireland had cable TV in the 70's.

What channels could you get on it back then?

watty

BBC & ITV

zilog_jones

When did they start introducing more channels? I know Sky Channel, Bravo, TCC etc. started around the mid '80s but I don't know how they were distributed to cable networks in the pre-Astra days.

Westward had about 11 channels by 1990-1991. IIRC around that time initially they had The Movie Channel before changing to Sky Movies, so I'm not sure if they had other BSB channels before the merger (they may have had The Sports Channel too, I forget). They also had Sky News, Sky One, Eurosport and TCC (not sure what it was timeshared with, Bravo or The Family Channel maybe?).

There was a receiving point on Keeper Hill, Co. Tipperary, more info here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=52022843 (although Watty's pictures are gone ). Not sure if this was initially Westward's or Horizon's, or did they share it?

Elmo

zilog_jones wrote: »

When did they start introducing more channels? I know Sky Channel, Bravo, TCC etc. started around the mid '80s but I don't know how they were distributed to cable networks in the pre-Astra days.

As they were set up. BSkyB began in 1989 ????? hence the channel line up in 1989 and some disruptions with cablelink.

Back in the 1970s there where only 3 UK channels and 1 Irish channel. By 1978 there where 3 UK channels and 2 Irish Channels, 1982 saw four UK channels.

Freddie59

Antenna wrote: »

I reliably know it was 1982 that Cork Multichannel began cabling Cork city.

The technical details would be interesting if someone can tell us more than I know-

They (with Canadian technical consultants) originally built a receiving point for what was hoped reliable good reception of the UK channels in the Knockmealdown Mountains, and laid a trunk cable back to Cork city going along the roadside through nearby Lismore, Tallow, (those two small towns were also to be cabled) to the outskirts of Midleton from where the remainder of the journey to Cork city the cable was laid alongside the railway line.
However it transpired that reception on the Knockmealdown mountains was unsatisfactory! They then did a deal (and swallowed their pride?) to use the receiving point at Seefin Mountain in mid Co. Waterford of the Dungarvan cable service, so this involved laying cable from their existing cable at Lismore through Cappoquin (which was also to be cabled) to link up with the Dungarvan 'trunk' cable.

Note if they had decided to use the Dungarvan cable from Day 1, a shorter cable route to Cork city would have been via Youghal.

After about a decade of use the long cable run to Cork city was decommissioned in the early 1990s when microwave links were allowed, with Northern Irish reception provided instead. Cork Multichannel's mini-cable networks in the three small towns of Tallow, Lismore, Cappoquin in west Waterford on the 'super-trunk' route were changed over to being fed from MMDS.

The light-green amplifier boxes at intervals alongside the roadside route have since then mostly disappeared, but attached is a picture of one remaining one spotted just outside Tallow on the road to Lismore a few months ago!

Spot on there! Now that box IS a blast from the past. Interestingly, the three applicants for the Cork Licence were Casey TV (Dungarvan); RTE Relays; and the Canadian concern. Interestingly, it was said at the time that Mr. Casey had advised the winning applicants that the Knockmealdown site was very inconsistent, but the advice was ignored. Mr. Casey had spent a couple of years extensively testing sites in the region.

Regarding the channels, here in Waterford anyway, Sky Channel came on in 1986, Super Channel in 1987, and then CNN, MTV, etc over the next three years.

The satellite services were pulled for over a year in a row over fees around 1992.

watty

zilog_jones wrote: »

There was a receiving point on Keeper Hill, Co. Tipperary, more info here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=52022843 (although Watty's pictures are gone ). Not sure if this was initially Westward's or Horizon's, or did they share it?

Fixed. Thanks http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51963059&postcount=1

The aerial array


Was replaced by the first private licensed Microwave Link in Ireland, to Cavan. It was still the main UK TV feed (analogue) when I visited the site. Maybe taken / visit in 2005.

Freddie59

Elmo wrote: »

As they were set up. BSkyB began in 1989 ????? hence the channel line up in 1989 and some disruptions with cablelink.

Back in the 1970s there where only 3 UK channels and 1 Irish channel. By 1978 there where 3 UK channels and 2 Irish Channels, 1982 saw four UK channels.

BSB (British Satellite Broadcasting) started around 1989, but never really got off the ground. The banks forced a 'merger':rolleyes: with Sky in 1991/1992, thus creating British Sky Broadcasting. BSB had, at the time, the rights to the FA Cup, and were broadcasting on a standard which delivered very clean pictures (I think it was D-Mac - Watty?).

watty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Satellite_Broadcasting

The British Satellite Broadcasting consortium was formed in 1986 by Granada Television, Pearson, Virgin, Anglia Television and Amstrad. In early 1988, the BSB consortium was awarded a licence to operate three channels by the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA). Around the time of the license award, Amstrad withdrew its backing and Australian businessman Alan Bond joined the consortium along with Reed, Chargeurs and London Merchant Securities amongst others.

They only had Public transmissions of D-MAC for 8 months before loss forced Sky & BSB to merge (March to Nov 1990). The D-MAC services gradually phased out in 1991?

It used (for then) a high power satellite and proposed a 30cm dish, later a 45 cm "flat" dish of a design only recently back in vogue.

It used D-MAC. MAC was originally designed to do Analogish HDTV in Europe competition to the NHK 1125 analog system (which is why Digital HD is "stupid for Europe" 1080 visible lines instead of 1152 visible lines). But European HD based on MAC never happened. It was all Standard Definition (625line TV, 576 lines visible video).
Not many TVs had SCART then and obviously you needed RGB SCART to get full quality of the signal. Many people used the RF adaptor on the Setbox/decoder.

D2-MAC in Scandinavia
Version 2 of Digital with Multiplexed Analogue Components.

All MAC versions are indeed superior to RF terrestrial PAL, Analogue FM satellite PAL or Composite. In modern terms similar quality to using Digital Audio and Analogue S-Video. Basic D-MAC is higher bandwidth and only two audio channels.

Some Analogue Satellite receivers had an RCA phono type connector labelled "Baseband" or an extra menu setting to output "baseband" to the SCART, in either case for D-MAC or D2-MAC tunerless decoder with Eurocrypt card reader.

The Audio was precursor of the Nicam system, but with 4 channels. That is the Digital part. Unlike current Terrestrial Nicam, no analogue Audio was transmitted.

The colour (chrominance) and Monochrome (Luminance ) transmitted alternately. (in S-Video terms C and Y)
http://www.stjarnhimlen.se/tv/tv.html#MAC

Encryption chosen for MAC was rubbish (easily cracked).
Bandwidth use was very high.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplexed_Analogue_Components

So while the Sky Merger meant the end of MAC in UK (with sparkly noise in rain or poorly tuned or aligned dish and even vision buzz on sound.) it lived on in Scandinavia, but killed almost overnight by MPEG2 DVB-s (Digital Satellite) in the late 1990s. Regular Analogue Satellite is only finally taking its last gasps this year (2009). Properly setup Sky Analogue on a 80cm dish with a decent receiver was as good or better than Analogue Terrestrial TV.

Since most TVs didn't have SCART for RGB in 1990, the D-MAC decision was wrong as it wasted €150M or more compared with an FM Analogue PAL approach and meant they were 13 months after Sky in launch instead of first.

In 1988 or 1989 (or maybe earlier 1986 or 1987) in the Railway Hotel in Limerick I addressed a large group of TV dealers and others who had been looking for distribution solutions and encryption for so called "Deflectors" for Limerick, Clare & Kerry. I outlined various solutions for both (I had maintained BBC Microwave terrestrial links previously). At the end I said the best solution was to get all such groups in all of Ireland and launch our own private Satellite Service. (The Russian satellite TV to India was long past).

Lack of vision. Instead we had 12 years or so of rubbish MMDS, cable and mickey mouse deflectors when could have had Satellite. We are still one of the few countries with no satellite service at all.

Mike 1972

What was this strange policy the Irish Govt had towards microwaves ? MMDS could have been introduced into Ireland in the 1960's (the technology had already been used in North America) but even RTE werent allowed to use a microwave network for distriution they had to rent one off the P&T.

And when the Government issues cable companies with licences why were they allowed to sit on them for years/decades (e.g. Nenagh, Ennis, Castlebar, Carragaline etc) shouldnt invitations have gone out for new applicants in these places ?

Freddie59

Mike 1972 wrote: »

What was this strange policy the Irish Govt had towards microwaves ? MMDS could have been introduced into Ireland in the 1960's (the technology had already been used in North America) but even RTE werent allowed to use a microwave network for distriution they had to rent one off the P&T.

And when the Government issues cable companies with licences why were they allowed to sit on them for years/decades (e.g. Nenagh, Ennis, Castlebar, Carragaline etc) shouldnt invitations have gone out for new applicants in these places ?

Cost, I'd say. Would there have BEEN any new applicants? Why were Eircom allowed own a potential competitor....along with RTE?

Ah the good ole days. The only difference nowadays is that its the banking sector.:rolleyes:

Elmo

Mike 1972 wrote: »

And when the Government issues cable companies with licences why were they allowed to sit on them for years/decades (e.g. Nenagh, Ennis, Castlebar, Carragaline etc) shouldnt invitations have gone out for new applicants in these places ?

Do they have cable and are they run by UPC? which then make the following statement ironic.

Cost, I'd say. Would there have BEEN any new applicants? Why were Eircom allowed own a potential competitor....along with RTE?

Since the very company they prevent from controlling them pretty much controls them with different owners.

Did any of the other cable companies provide Telephony? I know Cablelink where prevented from setting up a new TV station because of TV3 and possibly RTÉ and telephony because of Telecom.

Freddie59

Elmo wrote: »

Do they have cable and are they run by UPC? which then make the following statement ironic.



Since the very company they prevent from controlling them pretty much controls them with different owners.

Did any of the other cable companies provide Telephony? I know Cablelink where prevented from setting up a new TV station because of TV3 and possibly RTÉ and telephony because of Telecom.

Ironic? How so? I'm talking about the 80s, when it was impossible to provide a feed to places like this because of the laws of this country.

Elmo

Freddie59 wrote: »

Ironic? How so? I'm talking about the 80s, when it was impossible to provide a feed to places like this because of the laws of this country.

I the fact that the companies that sat on the licences are now possible controlled by one big company, I find it Ironic that the licences are still in reality the same companies. Not ironic if the licences where removed.

icdg

Freddie59 wrote: »

Only a couple of points to add:

Westward Cables was then taken over by Horizon, then Princes Holdings, and Cork/Limerick became Irish Multichannel. Irish Multichannel subsequently bought up the majority of the smaller operators around the country.
[/B]

It would have been CMI Cable (the Mike Murphy group) rather than Irish Multichannel that bought up the smaller cable operators. In 1999 CMI had licences for about 40 small-to-medium-sized towns around the State. Irish Multichannel's cable operations were concentrated in the Cork and Limerick areas. Suir Nore Relays in the South East was the next largest after CMI and Irish Multichannel bought them both in 2000 to create Chorus.

Zilog Jones wrote:

When did they start introducing more channels? I know Sky Channel, Bravo, TCC etc. started around the mid '80s but I don't know how they were distributed to cable networks in the pre-Astra days.

On Cablelink at any rate it was 1986. The line up of satellite channels on Cablelink in that period would have been Sky Channel, Super Channel, MTV, Screensport, Lifestyle, and the Children's Channel (which wouldn't really start being referred to as TCC until they introduced a DOG saying that around 1991).

Freddie59 wrote:

The satellite services were pulled for over a year in a row over fees around 1992.

Only Sky One and Sky News. Service restored in 1994 (after being promised for about a year before by Cablelink). The argument was indeed about fees and was very similar to the recent Virgin Media-Sky squabble, although that was resolved a lot quicker. The odd thing was that Sky and Cablelink were in sufficent agreement to keep all the premium channels on the platform...

Going back to the 1970s, prior to Channel 4's arrival some cable companies (including RTÉ Relays I believe) carried both Ulster Television and HTV Wales. There would have been a lot more variations between the two in those days.

Freddie59

Elmo wrote: »

I the fact that the companies that sat on the licences are now possible controlled by one big company, I find it Ironic that the licences are still in reality the same companies. Not ironic if the licences where removed.

Still boils back, though, to the monopolistic and draconian microwave legislation that existed in this country at the time. Unfortunately.

Freddie59

icdg wrote: »

It would have been CMI Cable (the Mike Murphy group) rather than Irish Multichannel that bought up the smaller cable operators. In 1999 CMI had licences for about 40 small-to-medium-sized towns around the State. Irish Multichannel's cable operations were concentrated in the Cork and Limerick areas. Suir Nore Relays in the South East was the next largest after CMI and Irish Multichannel bought them both in 2000 to create Chorus.

That is indeed correct. Hard to keep track of it all.

icdg wrote: »

Cablelink at any rate it was 1986. The line up of satellite channels on Cablelink in that period would have been Sky Channel, Super Channel, MTV, Screensport, Lifestyle, and the Children's Channel (which wouldn't really start being referred to as TCC until they introduced a DOG saying that around 1991).

CNN was available for a few months down here and was withdrawn. And lest we forget..........Lifestyle Satellite Jukebox!:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKDYAZUA_kU&feature=related

icdg wrote: »

Only Sky One and Sky News. Service restored in 1994 (after being promised for about a year before by Cablelink). The argument was indeed about fees and was very similar to the recent Virgin Media-Sky squabble, although that was resolved a lot quicker. The odd thing was that Sky and Cablelink were in sufficent agreement to keep all the premium channels on the platform...

That was kind of mad alright. It's worth noting that, at the time, Cablelink proposed inserting local Irish ads on Sky One and Sky news to pay the fees. It was ruled out of order by the Department Of Communications (after intense lobbying by various vested interest media groups). I remember reading a letter by some head in the paper at the time that, with digital technology developing (Jerrold were trialling a system called Digicypher), there would be nothing to stop Irish versions of these channels being broadcast in the future, with the revenue disappearing outside the State. The suggestion was rebuked. Look at what's happened.:rolleyes:

icdg wrote: »

Going back to the 1970s, prior to Channel 4's arrival some cable companies (including RTÉ Relays I believe) carried both Ulster Television and HTV Wales. There would have been a lot more variations between the two in those days.

Yeah, that happened here as well. Cork Multichannel also had the two on (when they still had the Welsh feed via Casey TV) along with the then-new Microwave system.

Elmo

Freddie59 wrote: »

Still boils back, though, to the monopolistic and draconian microwave legislation that existed in this country at the time. Unfortunately.

And we don't have a monopolistic draconian company running MMDS at the moment?

Could anyone set up a MMDS / Cable system now?

Freddie59

Elmo wrote: »

And we don't have a monopolistic draconian company running MMDS at the moment?

Could anyone set up a MMDS / Cable system now?

Who'd want to?:D Although I do believe that a certain company in Cork is now running an MMDS system (on satellite frequencies). And it isn't a health hazard.:eek: My how times have changed!:D

Elmo

Freddie59 wrote: »

Who'd want to?:D Although I do believe that a certain company in Cork is now running an MMDS system (on satellite frequencies). And it isn't a health hazard.:eek: My how times have changed!:D

Open market etc etc. which was the point of the Monopoly statement that I commented on was Ironic today when their is really only one cable/MMDS provider, and they don't compete in areas with other cable companies. Hence most people have the choice between either UPC or the local cable company and Sky.

And no one finds it Ironic that Boxer, One Vision and Easy TV wanted to set up a Pay DTT service!

Elmo

Also thanks for all the help everybody.

watty

Stupid and pointless maybe when it can't compete on number of channels, most of the basic channels on PayDTT are free free free on Satellite (If you can do an Aerial you can likely do a Dish) and just about anyone that wants PayTV got it 10 years ago or more.
Oh and transmission costs for a new channel are higher on DTT. Assuming you actually have to pay for carriage on Satellite or Cable (RTE don't).

Hagar

Freddie59 wrote: »

RTE were commissioned to cable the Ballymun flats in (I think) 1968 or so. Thus RTE Relays was born. Two other large operators (Marlin and Phoenix) subsequently covered sections of Dublin at the time.

Sillogue Gardens in Ballymun was cabled before all the flats were built, pre 1966 I think about 1963. I don't think it was called RTE relays at the time I think it was Marlin but I am open to correction. I'll see what I can find out.

Marlin cabled a few areas in Dublin to my knowledge but there was a limit of 300 houses per communal arial at the time. Most people though this was a marketing con to get people to sign up quickly as there were no aerials to be seen anywhere. (Ballymun excepted)

Freddie59

Hagar wrote: »

Sillogue Gardens in Ballymun was cabled before all the flats were built, pre 1966 I think about 1963. I don't think it was called RTE relays at the time I think it was Marlin but I am open to correction. I'll see what I can find out.

Marlin cabled a few areas in Dublin to my knowledge but there was a limit of 300 houses per communal arial at the time. Most people though this was a marketing con to get people to sign up quickly as there were no aerials to be seen anywhere. (Ballymun excepted)

Sheesh! '63:eek: Even Cable in the US was only getting on its feet then.

Freddie59

watty wrote: »

Stupid and pointless maybe when it can't compete on number of channels, most of the basic channels on PayDTT are free free free on Satellite (If you can do an Aerial you can likely do a Dish) and just about anyone that wants PayTV got it 10 years ago or more.
Oh and transmission costs for a new channel are higher on DTT. Assuming you actually have to pay for carriage on Satellite or Cable (RTE don't).

In a nutshell.

Mike 1972

First cable systems in the US were in 1948

In the 1980's (or most of the period anyway -not sure when it changed) it was illegal for private individuals to own satellite dishes. Of course this (ridiculous and kinda USSR reminicent) rule was flouted (although not particularly widely because such things were expensive back then) with little/no attempt at enforcment by the Dept (Not suprising given that pirate radio was more of a priority and they were almost powerless against that). Eventually the Dept allowed cable operators to carry satellite channels (initially on a temporary experimental basis and restricted to two channels at any one time) but private dishes remained technically illegal for another few years (although there were proposals to issue licences to people outside of existing or proposed cabled areas). Looking back now at the way things were done in those days much of it is laughable and barely believable.

RE: The alleged monopoly status of cable/MMDS operators this is less of an issue nowadays with satellite (Freesat/$ky/Foreign) deflectors (albeit only in some areas and soon to be restricted to 12 GHz) IPTV, DTT (some of these years) etc etc in any case allowing multiple MMDS operators would hardly be consistent with efficent use of the radio spectrum and multiple cable operators (particularly if cabling wasnt underground) isint really practical.

On the other hand the Dept of Comms in most parts of the country tended to award cable and MMDS licences to the same company. Cork Multichannel first started lobbying for MMDS licencing in 1985

The P&T monopoly on (non-RADAR) microwave use was more an issue of licencing policy than any particular piece of legislation. Bizzare though that even other state owned bodies (like RTE) werent allowed their own microwave links but had to lease them off the P&T. Given that Ireland was a reletively geographically isolated (only one close neighbour), economically underdeveloped country with low population density, little in the way of a military and a hideously backward telecommunications system (particularly in the P&T days) the microwave bands must have been virtually empty (Watty: was there much in the way of amateur radio/radio experimenter activity on these frequencies ???)

Freddie59

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Given that Ireland was a reletively geographically isolated (only one close neighbour), economically underdeveloped country with low population density, little in the way of a military and a hideously backward telecommunications system (particularly in the P&T days) the microwave bands must have been virtually empty

Indeed. As was proven later, one hop to go from Waterford to Cork, and a company forced to lay 60 miles of underground cable - for what, precisely? It was nuts by any standard.