Trying to use Laser when the site accepts Maestro

Red Sleeping Beauty

Hi, is there anything you can do when you're trying to buy something from a site with your Laser/MAestro card and they accept Maestro anyway ? Is it a simple case of the site clicking a button or making a call

What is actually the difference between a Laser Maestro and a Maestro ? I've rang my bank (AIB) a dozen times and the pleb on the other end just says "yeah it should work, use 000 or 999 for the Cvv2".

Gamesnash.ie accepts Laser payment but it's processed through RBS Worldpay. Surely other sites that use this RBS method could get them to accept the Laser ? Or is there hassle from the Laser side here with regards commision etc. ? It really is an absolute pain in the bum.

I'm trying to buy something from sendit.com and they've both sterling and Euro pricing of course and they'll let you pay in sterling but still deliver to Ireland, either way they charge either in Euros or Sterling. Anyways, I've emailed them a few times and they just keep saying they accept Maestro. Is there anything I can do like ? (besides getting a creditdebt card)

Red Sleeping Beauty

I did do a search. Nearly all the threads I opened are the same complaints so I don't really expect anyone to have any solid answers here. But I did see this thread and someone mentions the "older" 19 digit cards versus 16digit cards. I got my Laser card in '06 and it's got 19digits. Do laser cards from AIB have 16 digits now ? Would there be any chance of that getting accepted online ? I think I remember someone being confused when I tried ordering over the phone from the UK when I read out the 19 digits, the person on the other end said it was too many numbers but again, when I ask about Laser/Maestro they say "yeah we accept maestro" and the Laser card is suppose to act as a Maestro outside Ireland (RoI I presume ?) .

I read the bit from the Elara guy about needing an Irish bank account but I've used the laser in shops in the UK and it's worked in some shops (fopp, HMV, Tesco) but not others (Schuh, CHiPS). What Gamesnash Pat said was interesting with the transaction companies :
http://www.rbsworldpay.com/support/bg/index.php?page=start&sub=rbsworldpay&subsub=cards&c=ES

jor el

AFAIK, Laser has to be specifically accepted by the retailer, or their payment agent. If they don't, then you can't use it. It doesn't work as a Maestro card, where Maestro is accepted.

As debit cards go, Laser is fairly crap. It should be done like the UK (and RBS/Halifax Ireland), but it's not.

Don't know anything about 16-digit Laswr cards, maybe a solution is on the way. All I can say is that there's no way you'll get Sendit to accept your current one.

Red Sleeping Beauty

What do you mean "should be done like in the UK" ?

Can sendit not punch it in manually or something ? I can't get my head around why you can use it in some UK shops but virtually no UK sites.

What do you mean about it's a Maestro that doesn't work as a Maestro ? Do you agree with this post that suggests that the Laser card is falsely advertised because you can't actually use it as a Maestro card as described ?

My girlfriend has a Maestro and she can't use it for buying flights from Ireland as it charges Euro. Don't know if this information is useful but can UK Maestro cards be used on Irish sites ?




btw, thanks for the reply. It's pretty hard to get answers about what the hell a laser card is and isn't! I just posted on a banking thread about the Laser card... it really is treated like a handicap isn't it?


I used my Laser card for payment from http://www.ie.farnell.com/. Someone from their Leeds office rang me to take the number and put it through on their end (I assume) but the transaction sure enough cleared a few days later.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat

Hi Alan,

To help you out the maestro symbol on laser cards over here refers solely to the ability of the card to be used at foreign atm machines that display the maestro symbol. There are some high street retailers who also accept payment through the maestro system. Think of it as similar to a mobile phone roaming agreement.

It does not mean that the card can be used at an online store that accepts maestro.

When it comes to accepting payments online a retailer has two choices:
1) Process the cards themselves. This means the site takes your credit card details themselves and initiates the debiting of the card etc with the funds being requested to be deposited directly to their merchant bank account. In this case they need to have agreements in place through their bank which has the abillity to accept the various cards. Some merchant bank accounts will not allow laser card transactions even if the retailer wanted to

or

2) Employ the services of a card processor such as worldpay whom we use. Worldpay have integrated their payment processing with the laser card system. The retailer using worldpay as a payment processor can then opt to have laser card transactions enabled on their account.

However most retailers will not want to accept laser cards for the same reason that a lot of the merchant bank account providers in the UK etc will not offer the option at all. The security or lack of security on laser cards is a massive issue. From a retailers point of view they are a nightmare to deal with. Visa and mastercards have authentication systems built in where the cardholder can be verified etc - all laser does is checks the balance and says there are funds in the account. There is no way to verify the cardholders name and address match the shipping address etc and you as a retailer are liable for any stolen card usage on your account.

We've had to become very strict with laser card transactions from new and in some cases existing customers - to the point that we have lost customers who were unhappy that we asked for identification to be sent into us etc before processing the transaction. But it's either that or we stop taking laser cards altogether.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Gamesnash.ie (Pat) wrote: »

Hi Alan,

To help you out the maestro symbol on laser cards over here refers solely to the ability of the card to be used at foreign atm machines that display the maestro symbol. There are some high street retailers who also accept payment through the maestro system. Think of it as similar to a mobile phone roaming agreement.

It does not mean that the card can be used at an online store that accepts maestro.

When it comes to accepting payments online a retailer has two choices:
1) Process the cards themselves. This means the site takes your credit card details themselves and initiates the debiting of the card etc with the funds being requested to be deposited directly to their merchant bank account. In this case they need to have agreements in place through their bank which has the abillity to accept the various cards. Some merchant bank accounts will not allow laser card transactions even if the retailer wanted to

See this is where I get confused. I can use the Maestro (some) in shops in the UK but on the internet not at all. As I said, I paid for something from Farnell the other day, card details taken over the phone and I presume charged manually ?

2) Employ the services of a card processor such as worldpay whom we use. Worldpay have integrated their payment processing with the laser card system. The retailer using worldpay as a payment processor can then opt to have laser card transactions enabled on their account.

However most retailers will not want to accept laser cards for the same reason that a lot of the merchant bank account providers in the UK etc will not offer the option at all. The security or lack of security on laser cards is a massive issue. From a retailers point of view they are a nightmare to deal with. Visa and mastercards have authentication systems built in where the cardholder can be verified etc - all laser does is checks the balance and says there are funds in the account. There is no way to verify the cardholders name and address match the shipping address etc and you as a retailer are liable for any stolen card usage on your account.

We've had to become very strict with laser card transactions from new and in some cases existing customers - to the point that we have lost customers who were unhappy that we asked for identification to be sent into us etc before processing the transaction. But it's either that or we stop taking laser cards altogether.

What security is there with 3V? You can't check name and address off of that can you ? What authentication system to credit cards actually have ? I know most transactions have a temp charge against the card before the full transaction is put through but Laser doesn't. Why is there such poor security with Laser then? Why not allow the retailer to check name and address and all that ?

Why can UK people use their Maestros online without security hassle ? Is it that the Laser people aren't arsed to put any security measures in place or is it because it's a debit card ?

Does it boil down to Laser being a piece of shít ? If so why ?
Do the banks not want us to be able to use it online ?
How many people only get credit cards to buy stuff online rather than for credit on tap?
If Laser was like the proper UK Maestro would that affect the number of credit cards issued and thus affect the bank's wallets ?
Is it false advertising if banks say they're giving you a Maestro card when they're not really.
Would an Irish online site be shooting themselves in the foot if they didn't accept Laser or is that just a small thing to factor in ? (surely it's a big thing considering the massive thread here)
Am I getting into conspiracy theories here ?


Cheers for the replies. I appreciate you're not a banker but trying to get information from them is like blood from a stone ye know? (in my experience anyway). It's just a pain in the arse if you wanna buy something online and credit cards are out of the question and you neither want the hassle of a 3v card with rounding up per €10 and also the flat charges or the other pre-pay credit cards with their amazingly confusing charges system with percentages on top of each transaction.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat

Alan Rouge wrote: »

See this is where I get confused. I can use the Maestro (some) in shops in the UK but on the internet not at all. As I said, I paid for something from Farnell the other day, card details taken over the phone and I presume charged manually ?

All I'd say is that there are three different services offered by a card. There is online purchasing, bricks and mortar purchasing and ATM withdrawals. In the case of the laser card they have done a deal with Maestros ATM service and in some cases their bricks and mortar service but do not have a deal done for online purchasing.

What security is there with 3V? You can't check name and address off of that can you ?

No but afaik a 3V card is treated as cash so if you lose it or it is stolen / cloned you will not be refunded by 3V.

What authentication system to credit cards actually have ?

Visa and Mastercard have an internet equivilent of a chip and pin system. You basically register your card and set a password which identifies you as the legitimate card holder. If the retailer is signed up for authentication then no password = card refused.

I know most transactions have a temp charge against the card before the full transaction is put through but Laser doesn't. Why is there such poor security with Laser then? Why not allow the retailer to check name and address and all that ?

It's to do with the way some banks display / manage their systems. The temp charge you refer to is a pre authorisation request to make sure the funds are available to the retailer. In the case of Visa and Mastercards this locks those funds from usage so for example a card with a credit limit of €500 is pre authorised by a retailer for €300. The card holder will only be able to spend €200 until the pre authorisation runs out. In the case of the laser card because it is linked directly to a cash bank account most banks will process the pre authorisation as a full sale and refund it if the retailer does not proceed.

I don't know why there is such poor security compared to Visa and Mastercard.

Why can UK people use their Maestros online without security hassle ? Is it that the Laser people aren't arsed to put any security measures in place or is it because it's a debit card ?

Because Maestro is afaik a far more secure card. Why the same security is not implemented on Laser cards I do not know.

Does it boil down to Laser being a piece of shít ? If so why ?
Do the banks not want us to be able to use it online ?
How many people only get credit cards to buy stuff online rather than for credit on tap?
If Laser was like the proper UK Maestro would that affect the number of credit cards issued and thus affect the bank's wallets ?
Is it false advertising if banks say they're giving you a Maestro card when they're not really.

All of the above are questions I'm not qualified to answer

Would an Irish online site be shooting themselves in the foot if they didn't accept Laser or is that just a small thing to factor in ? (surely it's a big thing considering the massive thread here)

No it's a very big factor - a lot of our business comes from laser card sales which we possibly would not get if Laser cards were not offered. However the hassle of dealing with them can tempt retailers to suffer the loss in sales rather than the fraud that comes too.

Am I getting into conspiracy theories here ?

Definitely heading that way yes

Cheers for the replies. I appreciate you're not a banker but trying to get information from them is like blood from a stone ye know? (in my experience anyway). It's just a pain in the arse if you wanna buy something online and credit cards are out of the question and you neither want the hassle of a 3v card with rounding up per €10 and also the flat charges or the other pre-pay credit cards with their amazingly confusing charges system with percentages on top of each transaction.

No problem.

jor el

Alan Rouge wrote: »

What do you mean "should be done like in the UK" ?

Proper Visa debit cards, that can be used anywhere, not like Laser, that can be used only in specific places.

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Can sendit not punch it in manually or something ? I can't get my head around why you can use it in some UK shops but virtually no UK sites.

The retailer, or their payment processor, has to accept Laser, not Maestro. Even if the payment processor does accept Laser, the retailer could still chose not to allow it anyway.

Alan Rouge wrote: »

What do you mean about it's a Maestro that doesn't work as a Maestro ?

As Pat said, the Maestro bit is for the bank card, and not the debit card. I'm not sure of the technicalities of it, but a payment processor that accepts Maestro won't be able to accept a Laser unless they specifically state it.

Gamesnash.ie (Pat) wrote:

Visa and Mastercard have an internet equivilent of a chip and pin system. You basically register your card and set a password which identifies you as the legitimate card holder. If the retailer is signed up for authentication then no password = card refused.

Verified By Visa is the Visa operated one, and I can't remember what Mastercard's equivalent is, but it's quite a good security measure. It's quite surprising that a lot of online retailers still haven't signed up to it though.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Gamesnash.ie (Pat) wrote: »

All I'd say is that there are three different services offered by a card. There is online purchasing, bricks and mortar purchasing and ATM withdrawals. In the case of the laser card they have done a deal with Maestros ATM service and in some cases their bricks and mortar service but do not have a deal done for online purchasing.



No but afaik a 3V card is treated as cash so if you lose it or it is stolen / cloned you will not be refunded by 3V.

If it's lost you can retrieve the CVV2 and expiry through their website. I don't know about stolen though.

Visa and Mastercard have an internet equivilent of a chip and pin system. You basically register your card and set a password which identifies you as the legitimate card holder. If the retailer is signed up for authentication then no password = card refused.

I've seen Laser/Maestro cards from BoI with the three digit code at the back. They should be able to add a password to Laser cards and sort something out. I reckon the banks don't wanna.

It's to do with the way some banks display / manage their systems. The temp charge you refer to is a pre authorisation request to make sure the funds are available to the retailer. In the case of Visa and Mastercards this locks those funds from usage so for example a card with a credit limit of €500 is pre authorised by a retailer for €300. The card holder will only be able to spend €200 until the pre authorisation runs out. In the case of the laser card because it is linked directly to a cash bank account most banks will process the pre authorisation as a full sale and refund it if the retailer does not proceed.

I don't know why there is such poor security compared to Visa and Mastercard.

On the pre-auth thing...

when you use your Laser card in a shop to pay for something, it takes a few days for it to show up on yr online transactions but you of course can't take the money out... The technology can't be that different surely ?

Because Maestro is afaik a far more secure card. Why the same security is not implemented on Laser cards I do not know.



All of the above are questions I'm not qualified to answer

Shame these people don't like answering questions that out them for what they really are.

(I should probably take the tin foil hat off though)

No it's a very big factor - a lot of our business comes from laser card sales which we possibly would not get if Laser cards were not offered. However the hassle of dealing with them can tempt retailers to suffer the loss in sales rather than the fraud that comes too.




Definitely heading that way yes




No problem.

I wouldn't of ordered from you if you didn't do Laser. Reason being, I'd have had to get a 3V card and if I was doing that then I might as well just order from the UK or whatever. Mind you we do get stung on delivery charges from there. Price of independence I guess!

Red Sleeping Beauty

[

jor el wrote: »

As Pat said, the Maestro bit is for the bank card, and not the debit card. I'm not sure of the technicalities of it, but a payment processor that accepts Maestro won't be able to accept a Laser unless they specifically state it.

.

Now what you say that , it makes a bit more sense.

The Laser card is a laser card when used in Ireland to buy stuff in shops and also it's a regular ATM card (I had a teenlink card for years ). The Maestro bit is for outside of Ireland ? But it's not hooked up for Maestro online....

So it's gotta be the banks screwing us then ? As I said, it suits them more to inconvienience people so that they can't use their "Laser/Maestro" card outside of Irish online shops so then they've to get a credit card. If the "Laser/Maestro" could be used online outside Ireland then a tonne of people wouldn't bother getting credit cards.

chillywilly

ive just set up a halifax c/a to avail of the visa debit card. Its works exactly like a laser but it works anywhere the visa sign is. I got sick of not being able to use my laser on most sites online.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Yeah I've read about the Halifax thing. I also read they don't like giving accounts to undesireables ... which would be me

Am I right in thinking there's nothing stopping the Irish banks doing the Visa Debit Card actually ? Well... aside from their profits from Laser.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Got a reply back from sendit.com :


One of our customer services advisors has reviewed your query and we are able to confirm the following:
Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

This is something we are hoping to resolve in the near future.


Probable translation : "We ain't got a clue what you're talking about. A maestro is a maestro and we accept maestro. Crazy Irish man"

Gamesnash.ie: Pat

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Got a reply back from sendit.com :


One of our customer services advisors has reviewed your query and we are able to confirm the following:
Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

This is something we are hoping to resolve in the near future.


Probable translation : "We ain't got a clue what you're talking about. A maestro is a maestro and we accept maestro. Crazy Irish man"

That's fantastic service