Tuning up a car? ill-effects?

nice_guy80

Hey. I am considering buying a 2007 1.9 diesel car and the garage has offered to tune it up from 115bhp to 140 bhp.

Just wondering what effect will this have on the diesel engine?

Will it lead to lower mpg?

Will it increase wear and tear on parts?

thanks in advance

BArra

depends, what method of tuning are they doing

remap ecu?

new bits?

any upgrade in bhp will def lower the mpg

galwaytt

...fuel consumption is the first and most obvious side-effect, tbh.......

stratos

In a petrol engine nearly all tuning has an effect on engine longevity. More tuning less longevity. I presume the same would apply to a diesel engine. Diesel engines run much higher compression than petrol so they are built strongly with heavy components. Larger masses find it harder to change direction, like pistons thats why diesels rev so low. So the effect may be less. mpg may only be affected when driving the nuts off it. Tuning can make some cars fussy at normal low rev driving too.

Most engine map tuning will change the way the car is fuelled and ignition advance, if vvt is on the car the vvt response may be changed. In the old days we would fit a big lumpy camshaft that would make the car go like a bat out of hell but would refuse to idle under 1500 rpm, these days all you need is a laptop computer to get good performance across the rev range.

tossy

If done right there are no ill effects,I'd be more interest in the method they will be using i.e reputable re-mapper or cheapo tuning box and how much they are charging you for the privilege.

If it was me i'd decline the offer and spend the 300 odd euro yourself to get a well known and proven tuner like chippedire to do it,at least that way you have peace of mind.

Run_to_da_hills

Its your back street mechanic VS engineers that put years into R&D on your car. The car was designed by engineers to do 115bhp and not 140 bhp

If you soup up your block you put extra strain on drive shafts, clutch, transmission etc, . More importantly you could void your insurance policy if there was any undeclared modifications done to your car.

tossy

Most cars are actually designed and built to put out a lot more HP than the actually do,manufacturers always err on the side of caution due to the varying climates and conditions the cars will be sold in and the wildly varying styles of the various road conditions/drivers world wide.

An increase of 30% is still well within safe parameters in my opinion.

It all comes down to the way the care is treated and looked after if you remap it and drive the stones out of it your clutch will go,if you don't remap it and drive the stones out of it your clutch will go too only not as quickly.

Remap it,and give it the TLC servicing it needs and it won't miss a beat.I know of a 130 TDI golf that has been extensively modified from new to produce over 220bhp,its still running like clock work with over 230 k on the clock no internals were uprated,its still the factory block.

Matt Simis

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Its your back street mechanic VS engineers that put years into R&D on your car. The car was designed by engineers to do 115bhp and not 140 bhp

By an large thats just gross scaremongering.
Firstly you dont know that the engine wasnt designed for 150bhp but the marketing department wanted a product spread and chose 115 and 140 as the delivered product.

Secondly, common tuners like Upsolute, Revo, MTM etc are multinationals with large R&D facilities, contracts and liasions with car marques and pack tens of thousands of man hours working on engine code. Im assuming you have put in Zero hours tuning by comparison. Thousands of people around the world are running these tunes with no ill effect. They specifically sell tunes that is well within engine tolerances, its not in their interest to damage their customers cars. Obviously. There is nothing "backstreet" about it.

Its also possible to get higher BHP and return better MPG via a remap, the key element you are all missing is peak bhp and peak economy do not occur at the same time.
Peak BHP on a TDI is improved by a marginal increase in boost under load and/or increase in fuel delivery (diesels are easy in this regard).
Improved Economy is achieved by leaning out fuel delivery under cruise conditions as well as improving the torque band at lower RPM, requiring less pedal mashing to get going.


AMG was a Tuning house and now they are part of Mercedes. Alpina are BMW tuners which has sold modified BMW engines and general tuning back to BMW. I find here in Ireland the run away skepticism makes us so so ignorant to outside the box engineering such as this. This is not how engineers are appreciated in the US and Germany.
So frustrating to think of the technical gurus working on improving baseline, one size fits all factory ECU code being reduced to backstreet hacks or scam artists (remember the guy that wafted in here with "I think remaps are a myth").


To the OP, ask them who is doing the remap and just look up feedback online. Or follow Tossys advise and cut out the middleman (the garage) and go to a well regard Tuner yourself.

nice_guy80

Its a remapping done using a laptop as far as I know, and the garage wasn't going to charge me for it

its a 2007 Audi A4 TDI 1.9 that I am buying.

Gumbo

all of www.autoremap.ie remaps come from Germany and are TuV approved, which means the increase in power and thus the increase stress on all the components are within the manufacturers stress limits.

FYI

nice_guy80

interesting reading there.

tossy

kceire wrote: »

all of www.autoremap.ie remaps come from Germany and are TuG approved, which means the increase in power and thus the increase stress on all the components are within the manufacturers stress limits.

FYI

I think you mean TüV approved ,to be honest even if the garage are offering it for free i still wouldn't be comfortable with it,until i knew who was doing it,most garages - main dealers included don't have the equipment or know how to map cars,the only have to the ability to flash updated maps from the manufacturer to the ECU of your car.

tossy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Its your back street mechanic VS engineers that put years into R&D on your car.

I thought this was a very unfair comment myself at the time,on top of what Matt has said,i would like to add the following i would trust a proven back street or "independent" mechanic over a main dealer with my car any day of the week.Its been 7 years or more since a car i owned has seen the inside of a main dealers work shop.

Gumbo

tossy wrote: »

I think you mean TüV approved ,to be honest even if the garage are offering it for free i still wouldn't be comfortable with it,until i knew who was doing it,most garages - main dealers included don't have the equipment or know how to map cars,the only have to the ability to flash updated maps from the manufacturer to the ECU of your car.

thanks

unless of course, the garage are bringing in someone to do the remap.

if i was you, i would tell the garage you want the price of the remap took off the car, circa 350e and then do some research and get the car remapped your self by a well know recommended mapper.

JHMEG

Everyone's assuming it's a remap. The tune up could be nitrous oxide :D

Gumbo

JHMEG wrote: »

Everyone's assuming it's a remap. The tune up could be nitrous oxide :D

ummm go go juice
could be an ebay resistor/chip :eek:

Nforce

Or just a different coloured DI badge on the back

groupb

tossy wrote: »

Most cars are actually designed and built to put out a lot more HP than the actually do,manufacturers always err on the side of caution due to the varying climates and conditions the cars will be sold in and the wildly varying styles of the various road conditions/drivers world wide.

An increase of 30% is still well within safe parameters in my opinion.

It all comes down to the way the care is treated and looked after if you remap it and drive the stones out of it your clutch will go,if you don't remap it and drive the stones out of it your clutch will go too only not as quickly.

Remap it,and give it the TLC servicing it needs and it won't miss a beat.I know of a 130 TDI golf that has been extensively modified from new to produce over 220bhp,its still running like clock work with over 230 k on the clock no internals were uprated,its still the factory block.

We all know that in your opinion golfs produce copious amounts of power, go forever and handle like go karts. Meanwhile back in the real world , an increase of 15 BHP should'nt put too much of a strain on an engine but I would doubt some of the benifits that some of the tuning companies are claiming for their products. They seem to have suceeded where the orgional manafacturer with all their resources (even the "mighty" VW) struggle in terms of power,economy and longevity.

Mr Benevolent

groupb wrote: »

We all know that in your opinion golfs produce copious amounts of power, go forever and handle like go karts. Meanwhile back in the real world , an increase of 15 BHP should'nt put too much of a strain on an engine but I would doubt some of the benifits that some of the tuning companies are claiming for their products. They seem to have suceeded where the orgional manafacturer with all their resources (even the "mighty" VW) struggle in terms of power,economy and longevity.

+1. TDI doesn't mean 'sport' or GTI. They're solid, heavy engines.

Nforce

Some tweaked TDi's aren't too far off GTi performance and in some cases can exceed them.

JHMEG

groupb wrote: »

We all know that in your opinion golfs produce copious amounts of power, go f

I think he was making the point that manufacturers are cautious but with a bit of care a lot more is possible. This isn't unrealistic and is prob true of most makes.

tossy

groupb wrote: »

We all know that in your opinion golfs produce copious amounts of power, go forever and handle like go karts. Meanwhile back in the real world , an increase of 15 BHP should'nt put too much of a strain on an engine but I would doubt some of the benifits that some of the tuning companies are claiming for their products. They seem to have suceeded where the orgional manafacturer with all their resources (even the "mighty" VW) struggle in terms of power,economy and longevity.

You clearly don't know my opinion mister BB,but it has been some time since you popped up merely to knock my opinion,i missed you x

If you do a search on my posts you will see post by me saying that golfs are overrated to a certain extent and why i think the are overrated,i was in fact making the point that all manufacturers "wind" their cars back some what before releasing them to the open market,it is simple common sense really.

No car goes forever,but a well maintained modern diesel weather it be a HDI.TDI,TDCI or SDI should be easily capable of churning out over 300k if looked after right,the key term being looked after.

Your last quote doubting the claims of tuning companies just shows how ill informed you are,there are countless reputable tuning companies that will stand by their claims and do stand by their claims,do you think established companies like Revo,upsolute etc are bringing customers cars in hooking up them up to the laptop whistling for 40 minutes and then telling their customers that thier car is know putting out 30% more power with a wave of the hand in a jedi mind trick style!

"your car is now 30% more powerful" 1,2,3 you are back in the room

My old TDI golf was 100bhp as supplied by the mhighty (in a farmers accent) VW,i brought it to a reputable mapper he did his things and told me it was now 130bhp,he didn't click his fingers or trick me in anyway,i brought the car to westward engineering in Enfield a dyno of unquestionable reputation and i got a lovely print out telling me and showing me the power and power graph of my car,the amount of porsches,lambos and scoobies i left for dead in that humble 130 golf was unreal one day i burnt past a whole row of parked up lambos they didn't stand a chance ::D

I jest i jest,some people aren't the brightest and would think i was serious - god forbid, some folk need brain remaps!

Anyway that golf has now been sold on but last time i checked with the new owner it is still running like clock work,putting out nearly 30% extra power over 70k later,to be honest the remap money was the best money i ever spent on it as the 100pd was as dull as dishwater before hand.

Nforce

tossy wrote: »

My old TDI golf was 100bhp as supplied by the mhighty (in a farmers accent) VW,i brought it to a reputable mapper he did his things and told me it was now 130bhp,he didn't click his fingers or trick me in anyway,i brought the car to westward engineering in Enfield a dyno of unquestionable reputation and i got a lovely print out telling me and showing me the power and power graph of my car,

Yep...I brought my old Bora TDi to the very same man;) having been recommended by a well known VAG/Porsche mechanic.Following it's power upgrade I found that the Bora was actually more fuel efficient.:)

cashmni1

Nforce wrote: »

Yep...I brought my old Bora TDi to the very same man;) having been recommended by a well known VAG/Porsche mechanic.Following it's power upgrade I found that the Bora was actually more fuel efficient.:)

Guy on here recently had a remap done to his mondeo ST TDCI (170 or 180 bhp) and said that the fuel efficiency improved.
Stands to reason too, if the engine burns more efficiently, more power.

tossy

Nforce wrote: »

Yep...I brought my old Bora TDi to the very same man;) having been recommended by a well known VAG/Porsche mechanic.Following it's power upgrade I found that the Bora was actually more fuel efficient.:)

Its nothing but witchcraft and scorcery really,in a less liberal society this man would be burnt at the stake for claiming that more power can be gotten out of a car in a safe fashion after it leaves the hallowed factroy.

In fact anyone with half a brain looking at it will comrehend the simplicity of it all,lets take the mhighty VW for example,they are releasing the new MK6 TDI golf so they reduce the the boost pressure on the turbo to an acceptably safe level based on operating climatic conditions from finland to Australia i.e one map no matter where the car is going,they then roll it back another notch to err on the side of caution,then all other factors relating to this are also rolled back to match i.e fueling etc,So its hardly rocket science that it is possible for a mapper to take it up a percentage of that cautionary roll back to get more out of the car.

Do you think that the new focus RS is at the edge of its performance at 300 odd bhp? no of course its not,if it was every one would porbably break and leave ford with egg on their face,the engine as stock is probably remappable to 350 at least and at that the Clutch is probably identified as the weak point,so you uprate that and push it on further with the mapping,the next weak point will be most likely the Turbo,so you uprate that and then you will most likely need to uprated the fuel pump/injectors to get the best out of the modifications,you will probably find the actual block,pistonsGearbos proper etc are well capable of holding power well in excess of 500bhp.

Now im not too over familiar with Fords but i know thing or two about modifying VWs for higher performance and i am gonig by that.I am also of course over simplifying it somewhat for the benefit of some.

nice_guy80

so I should go ahead with the tune up then?

Still cannot figure out if people are recommending it, or not

benj

Do it..big difference in power plus if the garage is doing it
surely they will stand over warranty if something goes wrong.

Nforce

nice_guy80 wrote: »

so I should go ahead with the tune up then?

Still cannot figure out if people are recommending it, or not

Do it.............but with a recommended tuner.;)

nice_guy80

Decided to get the remap done.

Oh baby, cannot wait to drive it

tossy

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Decided to get the remap done.

Oh baby, cannot wait to drive it

Who is doing the re map?

nice_guy80

someone who knows what he is doing

He gave me list of few people who got it done (that live near me) and I gave them a ring

tossy

nice_guy80 wrote: »

someone who knows what he is doing

He gave me list of few people who got it done (that live near me) and I gave them a ring

Ok fair enough,if you don't want to name names that is cool.Best of luck with it. :rolleyes:

nice_guy80

i'll let ye know how it goes, and drives!

tossy

Hard to gauge the improvements as you haven't spent any amount of time driving it without a remap.

smash

Just buy a petrol car and save yourself the effort!

groupb

tossy wrote: »

You clearly don't know my opinion mister BB,but it has been some time since you popped up merely to knock my opinion,i missed you x

If you do a search on my posts you will see post by me saying that golfs are overrated to a certain extent and why i think the are overrated,i was in fact making the point that all manufacturers "wind" their cars back some what before releasing them to the open market,it is simple common sense really.

No car goes forever,but a well maintained modern diesel weather it be a HDI.TDI,TDCI or SDI should be easily capable of churning out over 300k if looked after right,the key term being looked after.

Your last quote doubting the claims of tuning companies just shows how ill informed you are,there are countless reputable tuning companies that will stand by their claims and do stand by their claims,do you think established companies like Revo,upsolute etc are bringing customers cars in hooking up them up to the laptop whistling for 40 minutes and then telling their customers that thier car is know putting out 30% more power with a wave of the hand in a jedi mind trick style!

"your car is now 30% more powerful" 1,2,3 you are back in the room

My old TDI golf was 100bhp as supplied by the mhighty (in a farmers accent) VW,i brought it to a reputable mapper he did his things and told me it was now 130bhp,he didn't click his fingers or trick me in anyway,i brought the car to westward engineering in Enfield a dyno of unquestionable reputation and i got a lovely print out telling me and showing me the power and power graph of my car,the amount of porsches,lambos and scoobies i left for dead in that humble 130 golf was unreal one day i burnt past a whole row of parked up lambos they didn't stand a chance ::D

I jest i jest,some people aren't the brightest and would think i was serious - god forbid, some folk need brain remaps!

Anyway that golf has now been sold on but last time i checked with the new owner it is still running like clock work,putting out nearly 30% extra power over 70k later,to be honest the remap money was the best money i ever spent on it as the 100pd was as dull as dishwater before hand.

Did I not say that I doubted the benifits of SOME tuning companies. Not all of them. I also have an idea about maintaining diesel engines. I'm a plant fitter (not the leafy type) by trade. I hook engines up to laptops on a near daily basis , but I stay within the manafacturers parameters when setting them up to run.

Gumbo

groupb wrote: »

Did I not say that I doubted the benifits of SOME tuning companies. Not all of them. I also have an idea about maintaining diesel engines. I'm a plant fitter (not the leafy type) by trade. I hook engines up to laptops on a near daily basis , but I stay within the manafacturers parameters when setting them up to run.

just like the reputible mappers. most of them adjust the map to well within the TuV recommendations.

nice_guy80

got the 'tuned up' 1.9TDi Audi yesterday

drives great. some acceleration in 3rd and 4th gear!

tossy

fair play glad you are happy,so are you going to tell us who did the mapping? how do you know its not an Ebay tuning box?

What bhp audi was it before hand?

Nforce

My last car was an Audi TDI 130bhp. It was remapped by the previous owner to around 160bhp iirc and it totally transformed the car.:cool:

nice_guy80

it was a 115bhp, 1.9tdi. now about 137/138 bhp...

Gumbo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

it was a 115bhp, 1.9tdi. now about 137/138 bhp...

who done the remap?

nice_guy80

a garage down the country. they do a lot of VWs and Audis

Gumbo

nice_guy80 wrote: »

a garage down the country. they do a lot of VWs and Audis

do you know the name of this garage?

tossy

kceire wrote: »

do you know the name of this garage?

+1 plus have you got proof it was actually remapped and not just fitted with a tuning box (good or bad type),or even worse not touched at all since you never got to drive the car before hand how do you know? (ok this maybe unlikely,but i am a cynic at heart)

nice_guy80

I did drive the car before I got it. Went for a lovely test drive...

Neilw

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I did drive the car before I got it. Went for a lovely test drive...

So who mapped it and how was it done? OBD or plug in box?

Gumbo

Neilw wrote: »

So who mapped it and how was it done? OBD or plug in box?

i dont think he knows tbh. the OP sent me the name of the tuners which i wont mention as its up to him wether he wants to or not but they are a garage and not a mapping or tuner, so the question boils down to the following :

1. did the garage saythey carried out the tuning and done nothing?
2. did they sub contract somebody in to do the remap?
3. did they stick a cheap tuning box type thing in?

either way the OP is happy with the car, hopefully they didnt charge him much for the tuning and hopefully he is covered under warranty too.

tossy

The OP started a thread asking about the effects ill or otherwise of tuning and he got lots of advise some good some bad,some grounded in actual experience some plucked from thin air,now he has the car he seems to very economical with the info! So best of luck with the car!

nice_guy80

right. well i don't want to give out the name of the garage. if you pm me i will send it on

I wasn't charged for the remap as that was part of the deal of me buying the car. I had talked to a few tax men from home who had their cars done in the garage and they have been very happy with the results.

Yes, the remap was done in-garage, using software etc not a tuning box and I'm very happy with the car. Hurrah