Neighbour being unreasonable??

oceanclub

We moved into a new apartment a few weeks ago. We're on the ground floor with a patio of a 5-story block; two such block faced each other across a lawn with a fountain.

Anyway, my wife was out having dinner on the patio this evening with two friends. Dinner, not a party or anything, with some music on very low. A neighbour two floors up leaned out of their window and asked them to keep quiet as she was trying to sleep.

Now bear in mind:

* It was 10.30pm on a Thursday night
* The person complaining had previously had their window _open_, thus letting in noise
* It was only three people talking - joking yes, but not shouting or anything

I think this is a bit much - what do others think?

Regards,

P.

amacca

if the situation was exactly as you described it then I agree. sounds like there is a jackass with nothing better to do on a thursday night than create hassle for people.

but depends, as long as the music was low, people werent shouting/screaming etc

oceanclub

amacca wrote: »

if the situation was exactly as you described it then I agree. sounds like there is a jackass with nothing better to do on a thursday night than create hassle for people.

but depends, as long as the music was low, people werent shouting/screaming etc

I guess I'm baffled, as, if they're in bed so early, they're doing shift work. In which case, why (a) leave their window, letting in noise and (b) why not wear earplugs or something? It seems unreasonable to me to expect to other people to fit their lives around your schedule.

P

ntlbell

if the music was "low" it wouldn't travel up two floors tbh.

but i think regardless as it was 10.30 the night the neighbour was being unreasonable but i'm not sure what you can do about it?

Seillejet

I'd laugh it off and wouldnt worry about it. She sounds unreasonable and was maybe having a bad night.

athtrasna

What do development rules say? Ours say no noise audible from outside after midnight but I have seen them say 10pm in other developments.

Lafortezza

Even if the music is low, the bass will travel through the building and make it difficult to get to sleep.
But asking to keep quiet at 10.30pm is a bit much, kids are still playing football on the street across from me at that time. If it was pushing 1am on a week night it would be understandable.

gurramok

oceanclub wrote: »

I guess I'm baffled, as, if they're in bed so early, they're doing shift work. In which case, why (a) leave their window, letting in noise and (b) why not wear earplugs or something? It seems unreasonable to me to expect to other people to fit their lives around your schedule.

P

I do that type of shift work at times and i do be in bed at 10pm and up for an early start!

If they had the window opened, it sounds like their room feels stuffy(ventilation issue) hence that acts against trying to go to sleep.

In my case where my bedroom gets stuffy, i do leave the window opened all evening to air it(thinking ahead:)) and close it when sleeping as it also blocks out traffic noise.

Also, it could be a case of bad noise insulation in the block. Maybe i'm blessed that all i can hear noisewise is a flushing toilet and never low level music despite said music being on at 10pm before.

What does it say in your lease about 'music/parties'? Some do say there is a time limit on it.

whizzbang

I've had a neighbour complain about the following:

• Laughing too loud at lunchtime on a Saturday
• Watching golf highlights at 10pm on a Thursday
• playing Acustic Guitar at 6pm on a Monday

Some people are just plain nuts. They think living in an Irish apartment block is like living in a house, that if you can hear anyone else then it is them being too noisy rather than the place being badly sound insulated.

MysticalSoul

In my apartment complex it says 11pm, and the one time, in the three years I had to complain, I left it till after midnight (apartment above me had a party mid week, and all I could here were people dragging chairs constantly) - had been in bed since 10pm, so was pretty annoyed by that stage. It does sound like your neighbour is being unreasonable.

However if the person is doing shift work, maybe she wasn't aware of the time perhaps, if she had been in bed for a while? Just a thought - I used to do shift work, where one day I could be working night, and another I had to be up at dawn, and my body clock used to be all over the place as a result.

AnonoBoy

I'd say it was the conversation more than the music that got to them. They were perhaps being a bit cranky but if all they did was ask them to keep it down politely then I wouldn't worry too much about it.

How did your wife respond? Did she and her friends go indoors or continue outside?

Unless the neighbour was being a real prick about it then I wouldn't see it being too much of a problem.

Jamie-b

Check the house rules, my block has a ban on excessive noise after midnight

athtrasna

That's three people in this thread who've told the OP to check the lease/ rules and he hasn't replied?

mehmeh12

I have neighbors like that..in their adjoining garden at all hours with music on etc...i just make it extremely obvious that i don't like them making noise..if these ppl downstairs of your apartment block are the only ones being loud them just call the council on them..after say 9pm if no one else is being noisy then why should they?

irish_bob

10.30 pm is late in my book , thier are laws in place which dictate that you cannot make excessive noise after 10 at night or before 8 in the morning , im not saying i completley agree with the neighbour in this instance but in my experience , thier is a wide spread lack of consideration in this country for our neighbours when it comes to noise , its quite obnoxious to say the least

irlirishkev

In fairness, anyone who lives or has lived in an apartment block, knows how easily sound travels up and in from outside. It's a bit of give and take really, but I wouldn't start stressing over noise till after midnight. If I had to be in bed at that time, I'd have the earplugs in.

athtrasna

Depends on what the development rules say. If they say midnight, if they say earlier, then regardless of your definition of late/early then you have to abide by what they say. The joys of apartment living!

Victor

The sleeper's request was not unreasonable. As to whether it was reasonable or normal or acceptable is another matter.

uberwolf

athtrasna wrote: »

Depends on what the development rules say. If they say midnight, if they say earlier, then regardless of your definition of late/early then you have to abide by what they say. The joys of apartment living!

well, I don't think we should completely rule out courtesy and consideration. Which is not meant to be a comment on the OP's situ.

athtrasna

True but with people all on different schedules you'd be hard pushed to find a time when you could play music/have parties if you were to take everyone into account. The development rules give a general guideline to a timescale that should benefit the majority of residents.

Dandelion6

Personally I think 10.30pm on a weeknight is a bit late. I wouldn't telephone someone then or knock on their door (except in emergency) so I would also try to show courtesy to my neighbours at that time by not making noise that they could hear.

oceanclub

OK, I checked the apartment noticeboard (quite well hidden), and it mentions 11pm as the noise shutoff point. That's fair enough.

As I mentioned, it was 3 people having dinner - not a party with music. I've lived in apartments a long time now and always felt it was a matter of give and take, personally; I've given neighbours the benefit of the doubt with the occasional bit of noise, only complaining when - with the case of one set of neightbours below - they were having parties with music on a midweek into the wee hours.

Ironically, I think it's the same person who's been discarding cigarette butts onto our patio all this while too, hmm...

Thanks for your feedback,

P.

PullOutMethod

Your neighbours request was reasonable.
She was within her rights to phone the guards BTW between 10PM and 8AM.
Instead she decided to be reasonable and ask you politely.

Only this Friday gone I asked my neighbour to turn down his stereo at 10:10 PM
As a young reasonable bloke why did I do that ?
When you have 2 kids in the house who cannot sleep because of a stereo what would you do ?

oceanclub

PullOutMethod wrote: »

Your neighbours request was reasonable.
She was within her rights to phone the guards BTW between 10PM and 8AM.
Instead she decided to be reasonable and ask you politely.

Only this Friday gone I asked my neighbour to turn down his stereo at 10:10 PM

I keep repeating myself - there was no music.

As for the bit about the guards, that's a bit of hyperbole. I should know, as my last apartment was directly above a shop (on the 1st floor, shop was on the ground floor) which started doing renovations at 1am every morning. I rang the guards, and was told to contact the Dublin Corporation Noise Pollution department instead. From them, I received a nice little form on which I was told to track said noise. Not much point since the renovations "only" lasted 4 days. I imagine that any night in Dublin, there's probably 100 house parties going onto in the night with banging choons; I doubt the guards are going to turn up to tell 3 women they should stop talking over dinner, any more than they're going to tell someone they can't blaspheme....

Oh.

P.

BC

oceanclub wrote: »

I keep repeating myself - there was no music.

You said in your first post that there was music which is why people are referring to it.

The gardai won't do anything as it is a local government issue.

I agree there has to be a bit of give and take in apartments, however I would consider 10.30 on a weeknight to be late. Also as someone who hasn't slept for 3 nights in a row because of noise issues my tolerence level isn't what it usually is! You may just have caught her on a bad night or equally it could be that she genuinely couldn't sleep with the noise you were making in which case she has every right to ask you to keep it down.

bugler

Talking volumes can vary pretty dramatically. I know I've heard very loud people from outside or through walls and they probably didn't consider themselves to be shouting.

Noise from gardens/outside is going to be louder than the same activity indoors. I'd move it inside after 10 pm personally. Is there really any need to be outside at that time? That said, your neighbour should probably have closed the window as a first step in closing out the sound. She may be a light sleeper, or maybe she's a crank, but generally people don't want to get wound up or upset or complain, so I'd take it on good faith that it was causing her a genuine annoyance.

One interesting thing to note seems to be the perception of 10.30 pm as being particularly early, or that it's the bedtime of a shift worker. My girlfriend and I are often in bed at 10.30 or thereabouts, and we both work a 9-5.

THJ

Just because your neighbour might be in a minority in that she is sensitive to noise, does not mean that she does not matter.

mehmeh12

Hym sorry to go a bit off topic here but there is a pub across the road where i live that regularly has loud parties on the weekend. Last Saturday for example i was kept awake to 3.30 am. Am i within my rights to have to place close? I live in a predominantly residential area...this place is the only noise at night..no one else is really awake at these times.

techdiver

I'm sick of these annoying moaners. If you don't want to hear other humans, don't live in an apartment!!! Move to the country and live as a recluse. Too many people think that they are the only ones who hear noise and make none themselves.

donojono

Dont worry about it! Do what you want. OP, really I would have a party any time even past the rule times which is 11 pm. What I would do instead though is tell the neighbours I am having it and they are welcome to come-(or if its private that It will be on through the night so if they are on shift work they can either get ear plugs, sleep extra before- stay in a friends or put up with the noise. Ofcourse I had a simliar experience like the OP before and my solution was the following. Revenge! Next time she has a party keep knocking on her door and pissing her off.

If people stick to the stupid apartment rules then no one can ever have a party again. 5 people living in a block should be able to sort out it that they can all have parties late at anytime of the year. No one is effected if prior warning is given for a big one! and even an invite. Who knows it might be back to like when i was growing up. Neighbours actually knew each others names.

whizzbang

techdiver wrote: »

I'm sick of these annoying moaners. If you don't want to hear other humans, don't live in an apartment!!! Move to the country and live as a recluse. Too many people think that they are the only ones who hear noise and make none themselves.

Its amazing how people seem to think they have bought a quiet house in the country when in fact they have bought an apartment in a high density development! That goes for both noise makers and complainers!

You have to adapt and be reasonable to your surroundings. Expecting 100% quiet when you are living in an apartment block is unreasonable when it has the Irish build quality. Similarly, rocking out until 4am is also unreasonable.

sharper

whizzbang wrote: »

You have to adapt and be reasonable to your surroundings. Expecting 100% quiet when you are living in an apartment block is unreasonable when it has the Irish build quality. Similarly, rocking out until 4am is also unreasonable.

In my experience Ireland could do with a lot more "moaners". Whenever I hear someone complain about their overly sensitive neighbour if I push them on it then they were just "having a few friends over for drinks" and only "about once a week". People living in apartments think nothing of having 10 friends over with drinks and music until 2am at night. Obviously after 10pm their perception of the level of noise they're generating is completely skewed.

I've had to deal with neighbours who would literally make the walls shake with music on a weeknight. At best you can get them to tone it down slightly for about 10 minutes.

10:30 is not early on a weeknight. Someone might easily go to bed at that time in the hopes of being asleep by 11 and getting 8 hours sleep to be up at 7am. I don't know if the OP is used to apartment living but he just has to learn that having a chat with some friends on his balcony is actually pretty damn noisy for his neighbours and he has to keep it to a reasonable hour.

oceanclub

sharper wrote: »

In my experience Ireland could do with a lot more "moaners". Whenever I hear someone complain about their overly sensitive neighbour if I push them on it then they were just "having a few friends over for drinks" and only "about once a week". People living in apartments think nothing of having 10 friends over with drinks and music until 2am at night. Obviously after 10pm their perception of the level of noise they're generating is completely skewed.

Well, feel free to push me on this. This is actually the first time we had guests over since we moved in. There were 2 guests. The music was a piano solo album on low playing in the living room, barely audible from the patio. Part-tay.

10:30 is not early on a weeknight. Someone might easily go to bed at that time in the hopes of being asleep by 11 and getting 8 hours sleep to be up at 7am. I don't know if the OP is used to apartment living but he just has to learn that having a chat with some friends on his balcony is actually pretty damn noisy for his neighbours and he has to keep it to a reasonable hour.

I'm been living in apartments for 17 years; I guess that is used to apartment living? In all that time, this is the first time anyone has ever complained to me about noise. If you're used to apartment living, you are used to some level of noise simply because you are living with stone's throw of dozens of other people; generally speaking, apartments are based in the city centre where you're going to get both traffic noise and noise from late-night pedestrians.

As for 10.30 not being early, but sorry, it is. If someone has to go to bed at that time because they have a long commute, well, commiserations, but it's not my fault. In my last job, I hate a long commute and used to get home at 7.30pm. I'm well used to have to get to sleep early sometimes, and guess what? I was a bit proactive about it and, for one thing, shut the (soundproof for a reason) windows to keep the noise out.

Your solution seems to be to throw the baby out with the bathwater; that, because, somewhere, a bunch of skangers are holding late-night parties til 2am, that we should stop adults having dinner on their own patio at night.

Feck it, one more reason to emigrate to a civilised country; coming back from Rome, the idea that a few adults dining al fresco at night is noise pollution would be enough to get you committed.

P.

D3PO

Its clearly a case that for many in this country apartment living is a relatively new experience. Lets be realistic if you live in an apartment you have to expect that some level of noise will be aparant due to the proximity of your neighbours.

Nobody here can say weather the request to turn it down was reasonable or not because nobody on here heard how audible the music was or the conversation. Which could be relatively loud if a few bottles of vino were polished off durin the dining.

We have all been in the place where we thought we were being quite but due to sked perceptiosn with a little drink on us.

That said in general if things were minimal it would be in my view an unreasonable request. I wouldnt lose any sleep over the complaint anyway if you pardon the pun :P

oceanclub

D3PO wrote: »

Which could be relatively loud if a few bottles of vino were polished off durin the dining.

1 between 4 people, honest (we deep-freezed the 2nd one accidentally...).

P.

sharper

oceanclub wrote: »

Well, feel free to push me on this. This is actually the first time we had guests over since we moved in. There were 2 guests. The music was a piano solo album on low playing in the living room, barely audible from the patio. Part-tay.

I'm not specifically referring to you - you already mentioned you had people over and were outside. I suspect the issue was with the chatter rather than the music. Once a bunch of people getting chatting it gets loud fast.

As for 10.30 not being early, but sorry, it is. If someone has to go to bed at that time because they have a long commute, well, commiserations, but it's not my fault. In my last job, I hate a long commute and used to get home at 7.30pm. I'm well used to have to get to sleep early sometimes, and guess what? I was a bit proactive about it and, for one thing, shut the (soundproof for a reason) windows to keep the noise out.

Shutting the window would have been a good start but then you don't know that person's history is with the occupants of your apartment.

As for 10:30 being late or early - whatever your bedtime happens to be doesn't define late or early. Expecting to be up at 7am in the morning with 8 hours sleep is perfectly reasonable and doesn't require a particularly long commute or shift work. I'm up 7:15 every morning and get into work by 8:30 to finish at 5. Hardly a crazy schedule by any means.

Your solution seems to be to throw the baby out with the bathwater; that, because, somewhere, a bunch of skangers are holding late-night parties til 2am, that we should stop adults having dinner on their own patio at night.

Feck it, one more reason to emigrate to a civilised country; coming back from Rome, the idea that a few adults dining al fresco at night is noise pollution would be enough to get you committed.

P.

Your attitude on all this is pretty aggressive. You were probably louder than you expected and your neighbour probably had a ****ty day and just wanted to get some sleep.

oceanclub

sharper wrote: »

Your attitude on all this is pretty aggressive. You were probably louder than you expected and your neighbour probably had a ****ty day and just wanted to get some sleep.

Yeah, I get annoyed when I'm continually accused of lying. Go figure, eh?

P.

sharper

oceanclub wrote: »

Yeah, I get annoyed when I'm continually accused of lying. Go figure, eh?

P.

I didn't accuse you of lying - I said that typically when people complain about their sensitive neighbors there are usually important details missing from the story. In your case I think you just don't realise how loud you were being and/or the previous people in your apartment used to be really loud. If you get so annoyed at the merest hint of a slight upon you good luck to your neighbours.

Del2005

mehmeh12 wrote: »

Hym sorry to go a bit off topic here but there is a pub across the road where i live that regularly has loud parties on the weekend. Last Saturday for example i was kept awake to 3.30 am. Am i within my rights to have to place close? I live in a predominantly residential area...this place is the only noise at night..no one else is really awake at these times.

You can object at the circuit court the next time their licence is up for renewal. There is also the issue of trading outside their hours, not sure of who to contact about this. I think the Gardai willl deal with a lock in, but it will be at the bottom of a long list on a Saturday night. But once you've called the station and the call is logged then the local super, or who ever deals with licences, will have words with them if it happens often.

Bob Z

OP i new someone in flat onetime who lioved above antoher flat into which a new tenant moved. The tenant complained about the noise of partys(of which he was right to do) but then he started complaing about everything eg chairs moving during the day, people talking then he would apologise for complaing and then complain again. He was either a nutter or looking for attention maybe your neighbour is like that

macy9

sharper wrote: »

typically when people complain about their sensitive neighbors there are usually important details missing from the story. I

Agreed. Im always amazed how nonobjective people can be.

Cicero

From someone who has experienced the extreme end of noise pollution from noisy neighbours (mad parties lasting 24 hours with major bass beat thumping through the walls) - thankfully in the past now- a few low voices at 10.30pm doesn't sound like much- OP - you have stated that this was more a once off than ongoing- as a once off or very irregular happening I wouldn't object but if it happened regularly, I probably would be annoyed at 10.30pm- people don;t really want to listen to others at that hour of the night - it is about give and take, but it's on both sides this give and take has to happen- its also how things can escalate quickly to more serious disputes.
Saying that, if someone is throw cig buts on my patio, then all bets are off- out with the sub woofer

micko2009

I am surprised at the number of people who think its ok to let others away with unacceptable noise levels past 10 or 11pm. Rules are rules at the end of the day and we all have to abide by them to get along in apartment living.

Just wondering does anyone have any advice.. Our Neighbours have recently just moved in we think.. They seem to wake us up at least 2 or 3 times a week at this stage. Either by playing low bass music or doing such things as turning the washing machine on at 3 or 4 am/heel wearing etc. They seem to sleep during the day and hang out and watch tv at night and listen to music. The cops have been called for them to turn off music before when they had a good few people over, complaints made to managment company etc. To be honest they look like scumbags from eastern europe and am convinced something dodgy is going on in apartment.

The rent is very expensive, landlord won't drop it and to be honest i think that its nonsense we should have to put up with this behaviour. Surely the managment company should have a legal right to either make steps to get the tenents evicted/cooperate with the rules or we could break lease and receive deposit back.

Before anyone tells me to chill i have lived in apts. for years, i am in my late 20's. Personally i think its ignorance of the highest order to make noise after 11 from sunday night till Fri afternoon. I think its fair enough to give people alittle slack on Fri & Sat night but still be respectful. I also think if they want to make loads of noise up until 10pm then thats fair enough. What to do, what to do..

D3PO

micko2009 wrote: »

To be honest they look like scumbags from eastern europe and am convinced something dodgy is going on in apartment.

They seem to wake us up at least 2 or 3 times a week at this stage. Either by playing low bass music or doing such things as turning the washing machine on at 3 or 4 am/heel wearing etc.

Before anyone tells me to chill i have lived in apts. for years, i am in my late 20's. Personally i think its ignorance of the highest order to make noise after 11 from sunday night till Fri afternoon. ..

seriously your the one that seems to be ignorant. They look like scumbags ... and your convinced they are doing something dodgy ? why because they probably work shifts and as a result dont conform to your cosy little conveneinces.

so what your saying is because they work shifts they should take time off work to wash their clothes at a time that suits you or should wear dirty clothes, and they shouldnt be allowed to wear heels in their apartment because it annoys you.

fair enough the bassey music but the rest is just absolute rubbish. If you cant handle leaving in your neighbours pocket go move to the countryside

micko2009

D3PO wrote: »

seriously your the one that seems to be ignorant. They look like scumbags ... and your convinced they are doing something dodgy ? why because they probably work shifts and as a result dont conform to your cosy little conveneinces.

so what your saying is because they work shifts they should take time off work to wash their clothes at a time that suits you or should wear dirty clothes, and they shouldnt be allowed to wear heels in their apartment because it annoys you.

fair enough the bassey music but the rest is just absolute rubbish. If you cant handle leaving in your neighbours pocket go move to the countryside

:rolleyes: For a start mate don't know why you made the correlation between shift workers and scumbags?!? My point is rent is high, they don't seem to work at all, day or night, have seen some seriously dodgy looking people enter apt. I am not stupid and don't give me all that PC rubbish.

I think you would be in the vast minority on your opinion there.. I doubt you would be ok with being woken up a couple of times a week with music and various noise.. I am a heavy enough sleeper but this is proper noise, deep bass, washing machine very loud, moving chairs at 3 and 4 am, enough noise to wake you out of a deep sleep.

If for example i was a shift worker i wouldn't start making noise in an apartment where everyone works standard hours, not only is it common sense, it also is against the rules by management.. Everyone has to sign these rules before moving in, if you don't abide by them then you don't belong there.

All i am saying is it boils down to respect and i will happily comment on someones class by how they behave around others.. They seem to be the only people making noise in the complex without a care .

My concern really isn't really with you and couldn't care less what you think but i wanted to hear other peoples advice if they had a similar problem. I wanted to know if people had experience with breaking a lease due to managment company/landlord of noisy neighbours doing nothing over problem. Cheers

D3PO

micko2009 wrote: »

?!? My point is rent is high, they don't seem to work at all, day or night, have seen some seriously dodgy looking people enter apt. I am not stupid and don't give me all that PC rubbish.

how do you know weather they work or not ? Unless of course your in your apartment 24/7 :rolleyes:

micko2009 wrote: »

I think you would be in the vast minority on your opinion there.. I doubt you would be ok with being woken up a couple of times a week with music and various noise.. I am a heavy enough sleeper but this is proper noise, deep bass, washing machine very loud, moving chairs at 3 and 4 am, enough noise to wake you out of a deep sleep.

I dont think I would be in the minority here actually, but you are right I wouldnt be ok with being woken up a couple of times a week, so guess what ... yes you got it I own a house not an apartment with paperthin walls :rolleyes:

So yes I do practice what I preach if your not able to handle noise (and i mean general day to day living noise i.e washing machines, electic showers etc not loud music) which lets be honest you are going to get when you have people living above and below you not to mind at either side of you then your not a fit for apartment living.

D3PO

micko2009 wrote: »

If for example i was a shift worker i wouldn't start making noise in an apartment where everyone works standard hours, not only is it common sense, it also is against the rules by management.. Everyone has to sign these rules before moving in, if you don't abide by them then you don't belong there.

show me any set of managment rules that say you cant walk in your apartment with heels on after a certain hour, or that you cant use your washing maching after a certian hour.

they dont exist.

micko2009

D3PO wrote: »

how do you know weather they work or not ? Unless of course your in your apartment 24/7 :rolleyes:




I dont think I would be in the minority here actually, but you are right I wouldnt be ok with being woken up a couple of times a week, so guess what ... yes you got it I own a house not an apartment with paperthin walls :rolleyes:

So yes I do practice what I preach if your not able to handle noise (and i mean general day to day living noise i.e washing machines, electic showers etc not loud music) which lets be honest you are going to get when you have people living above and below you not to mind at either side of you then your not a fit for apartment living.

Wow, congrats you own a whole HOUSE.. Very impressive :eek:

Ok enough out of you now.. Would like to hear other peoples thoughts, i am looking for advice not retarded back chat.

JamesTaylorfan

I think you are unreasonable and thoughtless if you think 10.30 is a suitable time
to yack and play music even low in such an environment.
As sure as god made little green apples your day will come when someone will piss you off in exactly the same way and you'll fail to understand that they're only doing what you're doing now.

D3PO

micko2009 wrote: »

Wow, congrats you own a whole HOUSE.. Very impressive :eek:

Ok enough out of you now.. Would like to hear other peoples thoughts, i am looking for advice not retarded back chat.

Ive given you advise. If you are not prepared to accept day to day living noise your not suited to living in an apartment. you should try and find somewhere else to live

techdiver

micko2009 wrote: »

Wow, congrats you own a whole HOUSE.. Very impressive :eek:

Ok enough out of you now.. Would like to hear other peoples thoughts, i am looking for advice not retarded back chat.

I think you've displayed how unreasonable and intolerant you are with your reply above. It doesn't do much for your side of the argument that when some one else puts forward some good point about the nature of apartment living you brand it "retarded back chat". Sums it all up for me!