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17,000 job cuts proposed... Does this sound like insanity to anyone else?

  • 16-07-2009 8:23pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797
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    Seriously... I accept we need to save public money, but more unemployment? Nice way to prolong the vicious cycle of falling profits for companies = more redundancies to break even... Those 17,000 people will take more money out of circulation and add a further strain to the social welfare bill. Whatever we do to fix our economy, this cannot possibly be the right way forward...

    Opinions?


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ardmacha
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    So what had you in mind to save the money? As the guy on the RTE news said if all of these cuts were made it would only reduce borrowing by one quarter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 irish_bob
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    Seriously... I accept we need to save public money, but more unemployment? Nice way to prolong the vicious cycle of falling profits for companies = more redundancies to break even... Those 17,000 people will take more money out of circulation and add a further strain to the social welfare bill. Whatever we do to fix our economy, this cannot possibly be the right way forward...

    Opinions?

    lets say theese public servants earn an average of 25k per year , paying them dole costs 11 k and you could add in a further 3 k for medical card and other unemployed benefits , that is a saving of 11 k times 17 thousand

    its a significant saving for the exchequer


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 hatrickpatrick
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    Now when you factor in the fact that those 17,000 people will obviously slash their personal spending leading to lower profits from the businesses they shop with. Not much of an impact on its own but when you look at the already rising unemployment figures, any more seems like madness...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 gurramok
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    It could be offset if we actually had progressive policies in creating jobs in the private sector for these 17,000 and the existing 415,000 out of work.

    We just can't continue to borrow at high interest rates, servicing that will strangle the country economically for a generation aka 80's style.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,559 Tipsy Mac
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    The country costs about 54billion a year to run, in taxes we are taking in 34billion. 17,000 people going at 45k a head which is their average pay will save 765million. We need 4 times the cuts of Bord Snip to break even.

    The country is finished, nothing can save us.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,165 astrofool
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    Why don't we just hire the 415,000 who are out of work, into the public service. That way, their wages will be spent in the economy, and we'll all live happily ever after.

    I can't see any flaws in that plan, can you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,960 DarkJager
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    Its only insanity and "unacceptable" when its the public sector isn't it? Personally, I'd love to welcome 17000 public sector workers to the dole queue. Welcome to reality boyos!! :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 How Strange
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    Our worthless, criminal government are adopting a shock tactic style cull of the public services. It's so reactionary and imaginative it would deserve our derision if it weren't for how scary it is.

    Read Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine and tell me you don't get a shiver down your back as you read about how governments in South Korea, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Poland, UK (Thatcher's era), Russia all drafted and implemented drastic cuts to the public services and services which improvrish the lower and middle classes and benefit capitalism and private ind.ustry.

    You strip out the public sector and the private sector then dictate to the government how a shrunken public services should be run. It's all part of the liberal agenda; they employ a liberal economist who has no consideration of how many children will lose their support teachers or if families lose their medical cards or you lose the tax benefit on dental treatment or your mother can't get a bed in a nursing home so you have to pay for a private home. These are the small things that add to your quality of life and which are part of the fabric of European society. It's all these things that make me glad to be European and not American.

    If these cuts go through then private sector wages are next. Wage cuts will be brought in under a regime of fear because you'll think you're lucky to have a job. In fact we're halfway there already.

    Will the politicians and the highest level of civil service get their pay cut and lose their expense accounts and chauffeur driven cars or is it the ordinary mick that gets the chop or becomes poorer because of spending cuts?

    This isn't about getting one over on an 'overpaid' public sector. That's what the government spin doctors want you to think. They have created this division to enable them to carry out the cuts with the blessing of the private sector. The government created the disparity and now they're villifying them.

    I want to know at what stage Irish people are going to get off their lazy fat asses and revolt against these arrogant f*ckers in government.

    Honestly, are we so complacent that we just sit and curse at the news? What does it take for Irish people to take to the streets and protest like the French?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,940 maxwell smart
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    17,000 isn't enough really, we need to be talking about 50,000. One in four employees in Ireland are state employee of one sort or another, so the taxes from the other 3 in 4 go to pay them, so cutting their numbers means a significant saving and the ability to direct that tax from the private sector to other areas


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 mikemac
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    If these cuts go through then private sector wages are next. Wage cuts will be brought in under a regime of fear because you'll think you're lucky to have a job.

    This has already been done for many.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 irish_bob
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    Our worthless, criminal government are adopting a shock tactic style cull of the public services. It's so reactionary and imaginative it would deserve our derision if it weren't for how scary it is. Read Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine and tell me you don't get a shiver down your back as you read about how governments in South Korea, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Poland, UK (Thatcher's era), Russia all drafted and implemented drastic cuts to the public services and services which improvrish the lower and middle classes and benefit capitalism and private industry.

    If these cuts go through then private sector wages are next. Wage cuts will be brought in under a regime of fear because you'll think you're lucky to have a job.

    Will the politicians and the highest level of civil service get their pay cut and lose their expense accounts and chauffeur driven cars or is it the ordinary mick that gets the chop?

    I want to know at what stage Irish people are going to get off their lazy fat asses and revolt against these arrogant f*ckers who call themselves fianna fail.

    Honestly, are we so complacent that we just sit and curse at the news? What does it take for Irish people to take to the streets and protest like the French?



    wont comment on most of the nonesense in your post but speaking of french , did you know that irish teachers wages are 55% higher than in la france


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,986 Red Hand
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    If these cuts go through then private sector wages are next. Wage cuts will be brought in under a regime of fear because you'll think you're lucky to have a job.

    Ahm...the private in many cases is undergoing wage cuts and has been for some time. It's taken this long for even a suggestion from a government appointed body to even suggest wage cut/employment cut for the public sector.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 grahamo
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    irish_bob wrote: »
    wont comment on most of the nonesense in your post but speaking of french , did you know that irish teachers wages are 55% higher than in la france

    That may be so but did you know the cost of living in France is much much lower than in Ireland!
    Also the French work less hours have more holidays and better working conditions. Probably because they are all union members!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 gurramok
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    grahamo wrote: »
    That may be so but did you know the cost of living in France is much much lower than in Ireland!

    It ain't that much lower to justify the much higher wage here. Have you ever been to France?

    How about we compare ourselves to Finland, another expensive country whose public sector workers don't earn remotely as near as their Irish equivalents.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 irish_bob
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    grahamo wrote: »
    That may be so but did you know the cost of living in France is much much lower than in Ireland!
    Also the French work less hours have more holidays and better working conditions. Probably because they are all union members!

    ah the old chestnut about cost of living , did you know that the cost of living is high because wages are high , besides the cost of living is going down , out of nesscessity i might add , the market demands it right now ,btw , did you know that ireland has double the number of nurses per head than france


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,034 deadhead13
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    From what I understand, Bord Snip Nua didn't actually propose any compulsory job cuts. The reduction is supposed to come from voluntary reduncies, early retirement and not replacing people who leave.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 Liz86


    Table 1.4 Proposed staffing reductions
    Agriculture, Fisheries & Food 1,140
    Arts, Sports & Tourism 170
    Communications, Energy & Natural Resources 106
    Community, Rural & Gaeltacht Affairs 196
    Defence 520
    Education & Science 6,930
    Enterprise, Trade & Employment 594
    Environment, Heritage & Local Government 30
    Finance Group of Votes 660
    Foreign Affairs 65
    Health & Children 6,168
    Houses of the Oireachtas Commission 42
    Justice Group of Votes 540
    National Treasury Management Agency 40
    Social & Family Affairs -
    Taoiseach's Group of Votes 77
    Transport 80

    I think they could cut more jobs in local govenment, cut the number of td's and abolish the senat.
    Staff cuts in education of 6930 and health and children of 6168 is disgraceful!!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 How Strange
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    irish_bob wrote: »
    wont comment on most of the nonesense in your post but speaking of french , did you know that irish teachers wages are 55% higher than in la france
    Why nonsense irish_bob, do you want to live in an american style society?

    I'm all for high taxes and lower public wages if we have a responsible government who invest the tax revenue in quality public services.

    We have a government who spent 10 years throwing money around and starving necessary public services. The education and health systems were on their knees at the height of our fabled celtic tiger so imagine what state they will be in after the cuts go through.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,122 c montgomery
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    Slightly off topic but:

    3 years ago i bought an appartment for myself as the thinking was if i dont get one now ill never be able to afford one. The only place i could afford was 22 miles from where i work and 20 miles from where i grew up and where my friends live.
    Since buying the house i have had my wages reduced, shift rate cut and a number of extra taxes put on me.
    I am currently in negative equity of about 100,000!!!
    I hate where i live.
    I hate the appartment.
    I am now in a 2.5 year relationship and would like to start a family but with this much negative equity and living in an appartment its just not possable. I feel trapped and its starting to take its toll on me.

    This is what i have gotten from the celtic tiger.

    I ****1n hate the government but the opposition are little better.
    They have screwed me up for the next decade at least.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 irish_bob
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    Why nonsense irish_bob, do you want to live in an american style society?

    I'm all for high taxes and lower public wages if we have a responsible government who invest the tax revenue in quality public services.

    We have a government who spent 10 years throwing money around and starving necessary public services. The education and health systems were on their knees at the height of our fabled celtic tiger so imagine what state they will be in after the cuts go through.

    what in the name of blue blazes are you on about , the investment in health and education has more than doubled in the past ten years , most of it was spent on wages to teachers , nurses , doctors and hiring extra staff in administration in the HSE whos only contribution was a vote for FF

    as for your question as to whether i want a more american style economy , im into small goverment , i dont believe in the state nannying people who make bad descisons , i dont know whether that makes me want an american system or not


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 irish_bob
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    Slightly off topic but:

    3 years ago i bought an appartment for myself as the thinking was if i dont get one now ill never be able to afford one. The only place i could afford was 22 miles from where i work and 20 miles from where i grew up and where my friends live.
    Since buying the house i have had my wages reduced, shift rate cut and a number of extra taxes put on me.
    I am currently in negative equity of about 100,000!!!
    I hate where i live.
    I hate the appartment.
    I am now in a 2.5 year relationship and would like to start a family but with this much negative equity and living in an appartment its just not possable. I feel trapped and its starting to take its toll on me.

    This is what i have gotten from the celtic tiger.

    I ****1n hate the government but the opposition are little better.
    They have screwed me up for the next decade at least.



    so its the goverments fault you bought in an area which is impractical , perhaps you should have rented and avoided being tied down with a mortgage on what was obviously a very expensive property


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 How Strange
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    Since buying the house i have had my wages reduced, shift rate cut and a number of extra taxes put on me.
    I am currently in negative equity of about 100,000!!!
    I hate where i live.
    I hate the appartment.
    I am now in a 2.5 year relationship and would like to start a family but with this much negative equity and living in an appartment its just not possable. I feel trapped and its starting to take its toll on me.

    This is what i have gotten from the celtic tiger.

    I ****1n hate the government but the opposition are little better.
    They have screwed me up for the next decade at least.
    I think everyone is in a similar situation to varying degrees and that's what makes these cuts even more scary. What happens if you have a child and he/she needs a support teacher in school and can't get one because they've been cut. That's the real cost of these cuts - everyday basic services - and seeing as it will be tough for us in the next few years it will be even harder if we have to pay for every service because they aren't available through tax funded public services.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 dresden8
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    irish_bob wrote: »
    whos only contribution was a vote for FF

    Ah the old chestnut, the old public service gave us FF sh1te.

    As jimmmy, your fellow traveller likes to point out, 1.8million private sector workers versus 360,000 public servants.

    You gave us FF, we didn't give them to you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 irish_bob
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    dresden8 wrote: »
    Ah, the old public service gave us FF sh1te.

    As jimmmy, your fellow traveller likes to point out, 1.8million private sector workers versus 360,000 public servants.

    You gave us FF, we didn't give them to you.

    and they have been so far the gift that keeps on giving to you


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 irish_bob
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    I think everyone is in a similar situation to varying degrees and that's what makes these cuts even more scary. What happens if you have a child and he/she needs a support teacher in school and can't get one because they've been cut. That's the real cost of these cuts - everyday basic services - and seeing as it will be tough for us in the next few years it will be even harder if we have to pay for every service because they aren't available through tax funded public services.

    as ed walsh said on matt cooper earlier , thier will be no need for school children to be effected if teachers choose to take a pay cut , like i said earlier , they are paid 75% more than in france and 55% more than in finland , the teachers have moaned and moaned about class sizes but when it came to negoitations , they have always opted for pay rises instead of chalk and blackboards


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 How Strange
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    irish_bob wrote: »
    what in the name of blue blazes are you on about , the investment in health and education has more than doubled in the past ten years , most of it was spent on wages to teachers , nurses , doctors and hiring extra staff in administration in the HSE whos only contribution was a vote for FF

    as for your question as to whether i want a more american style economy , im into small goverment , i dont believe in the state nannying people who make bad descisons , i dont know whether that makes me want an american system or not
    Yes, they may have thrown money at the HSE but the front line services are second world at best so investment isn't the problem. Investing properly is.

    You'll still have a nanny state but it won't be tucking you in at night; it will be sticking it's fingers up at you as it takes more and more of your taxes for little in return.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 865 Purple Gorilla
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    grahamo wrote: »
    That may be so but did you know the cost of living in France is much much lower than in Ireland!
    Also the French work less hours have more holidays and better working conditions. Probably because they are all union members!
    Wrong.
    You may want to check out the EU Harmonised Indices of Consumer Prices. It's a Cost of Living Index for all EU member states. I think you'll find that the cost of living is higher in France.
    Cost of Living in Ireland in May 2009- 107.6
    Cost of Living in France in May 2009- 107.03

    Not exactly "much much lower than in Ireland"...infact the opposite


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,869 skearon
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    The education and health systems were on their knees at the height of our fabled celtic tiger so imagine what state they will be in after the cuts go through.

    They weren't 'on their knees' and if the unions dropped their ultra restrictive work practices then both systems would dramatically improve.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45 blade912


    They should cap the top rate of pay including perks and expenses to 140,000 for the public sector and reduce the pay by 30% for the top earners to 5% for the lower end of pay. Then you can keep them all at work.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 dresden8
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    Wrong.
    You may want to check out the EU Harmonised Indices of Consumer Prices. It's a Cost of Living Index for all EU member states. I think you'll find that the cost of living is higher in France.
    Cost of Living in Ireland in May 2009- 107.6
    Cost of Living in France in May 2009- 107.03

    Not exactly "much much lower than in Ireland"...infact the opposite

    That's just a measure of change over a period, not an absolute number on the cost of living.

    The change in the cost of living over the period mentioned is roughly the same, it makes no comment on the cost of living itself.

    The level of ignorance in this debate is astounding.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 How Strange
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    blade912 wrote: »
    They should cap the top rate of pay including perks and expenses to 140,000 for the public sector and reduce the pay by 30% for the top earners to 5% for the lower end of pay. Then you can keep them all at work.
    +1


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 P. Breathnach
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    irish_bob wrote: »
    wont comment on most of the nonesense in your post but speaking of french , did you know that irish teachers wages are 55% higher than in la france

    Not so. The highest point on the scale for teachers in Ireland is €55132; in France it is €49155 (2006 rates, the most recent published comparisons -- See www.oecd.org/edu/eag2008 ). That looks to me like a difference of just over 12%.

    [I see in a later post you widened the claimed gap to 75%, making the inaccuracy even greater.]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 partyatmygaff
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    Cut the defence forces, don't touch the gardaí because its bad enough, cut all that gaeltacht bullsh1t out and wouldn't it be great if they stopped printing all government documents in Irish and English when nobody uses the Irish version.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 irish_bob
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    Wrong.
    You may want to check out the EU Harmonised Indices of Consumer Prices. It's a Cost of Living Index for all EU member states. I think you'll find that the cost of living is higher in France.
    Cost of Living in Ireland in May 2009- 107.6
    Cost of Living in France in May 2009- 107.03

    Not exactly "much much lower than in Ireland"...infact the opposite

    wouldnt pay too much intention to public sector clones parroting the lines they heard at union camp , to the last man and woman they all utter the same slogans messrs begg and o connor briefed them with

    WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS
    THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE LOWER COST OF LIVING THAN IRELAND
    PRIVATE SECTOR CREAMED IT DURING THE BOOM
    TAX THE RICH


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 dresden8
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    irish_bob wrote: »
    and they have been so far the gift that keeps on giving to you

    Yes, and as per the Bord snip report they have given us a 7.5% pay cut as opposed to a 3 to 4% pay cut in the private sector.
    The adoption of the pension levy in 2009 has on average reduced public sector wages by 7½% and saved the Exchequer in the order of €1.4bn in a full year.

    While information on private sector wage patterns is more difficult to establish, there appear to have been reductions in private sector pay rates in many sectors (although no firm data is as yet available later than Q4 2008). A March 2009 survey carried out on behalf of the Central Bank indicates that
    many private-sector employers have reduced wages by 3 to 4% to date
    ,

    http://www.finance.irlgov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2009/bl100vol2.pdf

    Page 186.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 KingPuck
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    This recession will do the country good. An overweight economy at a serious risk of a stroke that can save itself but a strict diet. This is an opportunity to cut the fat.

    I know that many civil servants are hard working...but the truth is that work was MADE to justify the employment of many of them. Commission for this agency for that. A load of xxxx.

    I'll never forget driving through Limerick one time when I saw 5 council workers putting up an 8 ft road sign. One was on a ladder, 2 more holding the ladder and the other 2 were 3 feet away looking at the fella on the ladder. It sounds like a joke but alas it's not.......


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 gurramok
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    dresden8 wrote: »
    Yes, and as per the Bord snip report they have given us a 7.5% pay cut as opposed to a 3 to 4% pay cut in the private sector.

    http://www.finance.irlgov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2009/bl100vol2.pdf

    Page 186.

    Thats a 'pension levy', you'll get it back.

    How many of the 415,000 unemployed came from the public sector?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 dresden8
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    irish_bob wrote: »
    wouldnt pay too much intention to public sector clones parroting the lines they heard at union camp , to the last man and woman they all utter the same slogans messrs begg and o connor briefed them with

    WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS
    THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE LOWER COST OF LIVING THAN IRELAND
    PRIVATE SECTOR CREAMED IT DURING THE BOOM
    TAX THE RICH

    That's a measured response.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 superhooper
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    SNIP should have been looking for efficiencies. Head count slashing is lazy and in the long term counter productive. Any fool with a red pen could carry that out.While I did see imagination used in some areas most of it seems to be a scare tactic which was disappointing as I really thought that these guys would be up to the job .:(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 dresden8
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    gurramok wrote: »
    Thats a 'pension levy', you'll get it back.

    How many of the 415,000 unemployed came from the public sector?

    If it's a "pension levy" perhaps you can show me where my pension contributions are invested and what sort of rate of return the government/NTMA will get on my "pension contribution".

    What strategy are they pursuing with my future? I'm fascinated to find out.

    As regards the unemployed, I don't know but a lot of short-term public servants have been let go. You tell me.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 Sparks
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    gurramok wrote: »
    Thats a 'pension levy', you'll get it back.
    Actually, I pay that right now and I won't get it back because I don't qualify for the pension it pays for.
    And most of the research staff in TCD seem to be in the same boat there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 74 francish
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    dresden8 wrote: »
    That's a measured response.

    It's the truth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 232 DTrotter
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    irish_bob wrote: »
    as ed walsh said on matt cooper earlier , thier will be no need for school children to be effected if teachers choose to take a pay cut , like i said earlier , they are paid 75% more than in france and 55% more than in finland , the teachers have moaned and moaned about class sizes but when it came to negoitations , they have always opted for pay rises instead of chalk and blackboards

    I'd love to see back up for this, is it comparing same levels? And you actually said 55% higher than France earlier.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 74 francish
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    SNIP should have been looking for efficiencies. Head count slashing is lazy and in the long term counter productive. Any fool with a red pen could carry that out.While I did see imagination used in some areas most of it seems to be a scare tactic which was disappointing as I really thought that these guys would be up to the job .:(

    "Head count slashing is lazy" - there are too many headcounts, so some should be sacked. This is a fact. Explain how it's being lazy?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 P. Breathnach
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    gurramok wrote: »
    ... How many of the 415,000 unemployed came from the public sector?

    I know a few. People on temporary contracts who might otherwise have had reasonable hopes of continuing employment have been laid off. I don't have numbers, but I am sure that they add up to a goodly number.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 dresden8
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    Sparks wrote: »
    Actually, I pay that right now and I won't get it back because I don't qualify for the pension it pays for.
    And most of the research staff in TCD seem to be in the same boat there.

    How dare you!!!!!

    Letting the truth get in the way of a public sector bash.

    Burn them as witches I say!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 gurramok
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    dresden8 wrote: »
    If it's a "pension levy" perhaps you can show me where my pension contributions are invested and what sort of rate of return the government/NTMA will get on my "pension contribution".

    What strategy are they pursuing with my future? I'm fascinated to find out.

    As regards the unemployed, I don't know but a lot of short-term public servants have been let go. You tell me.

    You have a chance every 5 years to vote on how your pension is invested ;)

    Its explained here http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2009/02/08/story39365.asp

    Dunno where you got 7.5%, did you leave out the tax relief on pensions part? :D
    So, as with all employees, public servants are entitled to tax relief on their pension contributions, including those paid under the new levy rules.

    The tax relief on the levy will mean that in net terms it will actually account for about 4 per cent of the average public sector employee’s wages. ‘‘Taxable income is net of the pension contribution.

    So 4% the pay cut really is.

    "I don't know but a lot of short-term public servants have been let go" = temporary positions, they were going to be let go anyway, called contracts.

    Very few permo public sector employees have been let go. This Snip report is the start of identifying where those permo cuts can be made and we know the unions would rather put the country on IMF radar through sheer greed than grasp reality.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 232 DTrotter
    ✭✭


    francish wrote: »
    "Head count slashing is lazy" - there are too many headcounts, so some should be sacked. This is a fact. Explain how it's being lazy?

    I'd say some should never be there in the first place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 dresden8
    ✭✭✭


    WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS
    THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE LOWER COST OF LIVING THAN IRELAND
    PRIVATE SECTOR CREAMED IT DURING THE BOOM
    TAX THE RICH
    francish wrote: »
    It's the truth.

    Damned right it's the truth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 Shaughraun


    This to me is the most important question, and one that needs to be asked by everyone involved in this bloodbath- are the majority of these "snips" a direct result of bailing out the banks?


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