Back exercise and later life

Twin Lance

Hey guys, big time lurker here, I've learned a lot from this forum in the past few years, my favorite of which was the deadlift!
In the past few months I've put a lot more focus on my back in the gym, but I'm curious as to how it will affect me further down the line. I like to think that I have fairly decent form with my weightlifting, and I generally don't pull weights that put me under serious stress.
Both my parents have had major issues with their backs in the past few years. Both of them had slipped discs amongst other things that made them visit numerous chiropractors. Since I started deadlifting my back has grown like crazy (n00b gain ) and I've noticed my horrible posture has been slowly improving! But will all the stuff I'm doing now when I'm 21 have a positive or negative effect later on? I'm kinda resigned to the fact that back problems are inevitable for me, but I don't really want to do things that will quicken the process if you know what I mean! So if anyone could shed some light on the subject, I'd be pretty grateful!

EileenG

Positive.

It's one of the big myths that squatting will ruin your knees and deadlifts will ruin your back. In all studies, the people who squat and deadlift end up with much stronger and healthier knees and backs than the ones who don't.

Actually, it makes sense. By exercising your back, you are making it stronger, improving your posture, teaching yourself how to lift heavy objects safely. Someone who sits in a car or at a desk or in front of the tv all day may never have DOMS in their back, but eventually their abused backs will protest all the strain of bad posture, and will develop problems.

Very few people are born with bad backs, most of use develop them with a lazy lifestyle or carelessness. Regular deadlifting and lots of walking will give you a healthy back for years in the future.

**Timbuk2**

Everything that EileenG has said is exactly right!

It is essential though that you have correct form when doing these exercises - deadlifts can be bad for your back if you do them incorrectly.

Squats can actually strengthen your knees, but also concentrate on doing hamstring strength exercises as well so you don't create a large quad-hamstring imbalance, which can cause knee pain.

Have a look at this thread for hamstring exercises.

Good luck!

d'Oracle

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Squats can actually strengthen your knees, but also concentrate on doing hamstring strength exercises as well so you don't create a large quad-hamstring imbalance, which can cause knee pain.

A properly executed Squat, to below paralell does not cause Quad-hammer imbalance.

**Timbuk2**

d'Oracle wrote: »

A properly executed Squat, to below paralell does not cause Quad-hammer imbalance.

True but cycling 9,000km a year seems to

Colm_OReilly

The only thing I'd add, and Eileen is right on the money, is to make sure you work your abs as well, as these contribute to your back strength. Weighted sit ups, GHD sit ups, knees to elbows, L-Seats, front levers, all help.

toggle

Good advice above...
Don't forget the gluts in your quest for a good back, The gluts are king when it comes the core. Bridge Track +/- single leg extension, single leg deadlifts and squats.

I would also recommend maintaining good hip mobility and glut & hip flexor flexibility. This will have a big impact on your posture, Janda thought that 60% of the population has an S-Posture (Google it for more info).

Toggle

BJohnson

I deal with these sorts of injuries every day in my surgery, and Eileen pretty much has it right. The classic person that comes in with a disc injury is in their late 20's to early 30's, has a sedentary job, and doesn't get much exercise. She's absolutely right in that low back pain and disc herniations are definitely not inevitable. Some people are more prone to developing them for two reasons:

1) lifestyle - lots of slouching at their desk or on their couch, lots of driving, bad lifting techniques, weak core muscles, poorly chosen exercises that increase back strain, focussing on spine flexibility instead of stability, emphasizing back strength as opposed to endurance... most of these don't put a huge amount of strain on the back, but small amounts of strain applied over a long period of time eventually wears down the disc and leads to a herniation

2) genetics - there's a continuum in the population of capacity and tolerance in people's backs. Some people have a high capacity and can handle a ton of strain on their back without sustaining an injury. A timely example of this are the professional cyclists in the Tour de France. The position they are in on the bike puts a large amount of strain on their discs in their low back. The average person probably couldn't handle the training required to reach the higher levels of the sport because they'd end up with an injury. Pro cyclists are kind of "freaks of nature" that are at the high end of that continuum - they have discs that are stronger than the average person's, and can therefore handle the training necessary to reach the top levels of the sport.

The answers for treating chronic low back pain aren't as straight forward as most people believe. I spend at least 2 hours with patients over a series of 3 or 4 visits going over the basic concepts of spine biomechanics, core stability, proper lifting techniques, etc. You also have to take the time to do some detective work, figuring out all of the little things they're doing on a daily basis to aggravate the back injury, and then teach them alternative ways of doing them that are safer for the spine. Properly chosen core stability exercises can then be gradually introduced and expanded according to their specific needs. If patients never develop an understanding of these concepts, the odds are good that the back pain will keep returning and continue to get worse. In the end, it's not what type of professional they choose to see that matters, whether it be chiropractor, physio, osteopath, GP, etc - it's a matter of finding someone that can take the time and has the knowledge to teach them what they've been doing wrong, and can teach them what changes they can make to prevent it from getting worse. I can adjust a patient's back and they'll leave feeling less pain, or they can go to a GP and get pain killers and anti-inflammatories, but if they go home and slouch on the couch for the rest of the day, nothing is going to improve. The practitioner can do their part, but the patient has to do their part as well in terms of posture, exercise, and avoidance of activities that aggravate the condition.

If you want a really interesting read, check out this article by Stu McGill, the world's leading expert on low back pain - it's only 8 pages long but it gives a brief outline of the most recent evidence in treating bad backs.

www.ahs.uwaterloo.ca/~mcgill/fitnessleadersguide.pdf

Brian

colman1212

I know this is slightly off topic but you say above you should always do equal amount of quad work and hamstring work.
I'm doing rippletoes starting strength at the mo and there are no real hamstring exercises in there. I plan on doing it for the next few months. Is this an issue? or should I add in hamstring exercise..

d'Oracle

BJohnson wrote: »

1) lifestyle - lots of slouching at their desk or on their couch, lots of driving, bad lifting techniques, weak core muscles, poorly chosen exercises that increase back strain, focussing on spine flexibility instead of stability, emphasizing back strength as opposed to endurance...

This is me.

How do I focus on endurance?

BJohnson

d'Oracle wrote: »

This is me.

How do I focus on endurance?

Have a read of that link I posted above - it discusses the reasoning behind a focus on low back muscular endurance instead of strength. It also shows a few core stability exercises that can help most people. There really are no simple answers that apply to everybody - it's a matter of tailoring a treatment to an individual's needs. What caused one person's back pain isn't necessarily the same that caused another person's, and treating everyone the same way will only get mediocre results.

Core stability endurance is an important topic for two reasons:

1) the muscles of the core act like a set of guy-wires that hold the spine rigidly in place when they're contracted. They're similar to the guy-wires that hold a radio antenna firmly in the ground off in a field. These muscles form a hoop or brace that wraps all the way around the torso and locks into the spine, giving the spine rigidity. It's not a matter of simply strengthening your abdominal muscles and somehow that makes back pain go away. Proper core stability exercises should focus on training those muscles that form that "abdominal brace", or hoop of muscle, to act as one functional unit.

The key point that is often misunderstood is that you only need to flex the core muscles to 10% of your maximum in order to lock the spine in place, essentially creating a built-in back belt to protect the spine. The main concept is that you don't need to generate a huge amount of power with your core muscles for a short amount of time, you need to generate only a small amount of force (10% of your maximum), but hold it for long periods of time.

For example, I have a patient that works as a chef and has to re-stock his walk-in fridge once a week. While he's lifting and bending and twisting, he has to maintain that light contraction in the core muscles to lock his spine in place to prevent a flare-up of his disc herniation. The job takes him a good 30 mins to do. The same applies to a patient that wanted to get back into running after a disc herniation. We trained his core muscles to be able to remain firm for the length of his run, approximately 30 mins, to prevent any momentary buckling of the spine that could happen with a momentary awkward stride. Professional boxers maintain a light abdominal contraction to keep the core muscles firm so that a body shot won't buckle their spine - again, it only requires about 10% of their maximum contraction in order to protect their back, but they have to maintain that contraction for 3 mins at a time, the length of each round. Building a huge amount of back or core strength and neglecting endurance, in these cases, won't be of much benefit.

2) training the core muscles how to tighten allows for efficient energy transfer between the upper and lower body. An example of this is a high jumper or basketball player. When they perform a jump, they don't bend at the hip, knee and ankle. Instead they take a running start and very quickly and powerfully slap the foot flat against the ground, generating as much power with the muscles of the thighs and buttocks as possible. Simple physics says that the ground exerts the same amount of force back into their body. If they can tighten the core muscles at the exact moment when that force is being transferred up through the legs, the energy gets efficiently transferred through the torso and up into the the upper body, sending them into the air for a maximally high jump. This is also why people in jumping sports should avoid much stretching of their hamstrings. The looser the hamstrings are, the more energy they'll dissipate at that moment of energy transfer. Tight hamstrings act like a tightly-wound spring and transfer more of the energy created during the jump.

A case of this where endurance place a key role would be with a marathon runner. Maintaining a light contraction in the core muscles eliminates any energy leaks between the upper and lower body, allowing for more efficient running. For a marathoner, this requires holding that abdominal brace hours at a time - again, not requiring huge amounts of power, but rather small amounts held for long periods of time.

ilovelamp2000

BJohnson wrote: »

I deal with these sorts of injuries every day in my surgery, and Eileen pretty much has it right. The classic person that comes in with a disc injury is in their late 20's to early 30's, has a sedentary job, and doesn't get much exercise. She's absolutely right in that low back pain and disc herniations are definitely not inevitable. Some people are more prone to developing them for two reasons:

1) lifestyle - lots of slouching at their desk or on their couch, lots of driving, bad lifting techniques, weak core muscles, poorly chosen exercises that increase back strain, focussing on spine flexibility instead of stability, emphasizing back strength as opposed to endurance... most of these don't put a huge amount of strain on the back, but small amounts of strain applied over a long period of time eventually wears down the disc and leads to a herniation

2) genetics - there's a continuum in the population of capacity and tolerance in people's backs. Some people have a high capacity and can handle a ton of strain on their back without sustaining an injury. A timely example of this are the professional cyclists in the Tour de France. The position they are in on the bike puts a large amount of strain on their discs in their low back. The average person probably couldn't handle the training required to reach the higher levels of the sport because they'd end up with an injury. Pro cyclists are kind of "freaks of nature" that are at the high end of that continuum - they have discs that are stronger than the average person's, and can therefore handle the training necessary to reach the top levels of the sport.

The answers for treating chronic low back pain aren't as straight forward as most people believe. I spend at least 2 hours with patients over a series of 3 or 4 visits going over the basic concepts of spine biomechanics, core stability, proper lifting techniques, etc. You also have to take the time to do some detective work, figuring out all of the little things they're doing on a daily basis to aggravate the back injury, and then teach them alternative ways of doing them that are safer for the spine. Properly chosen core stability exercises can then be gradually introduced and expanded according to their specific needs. If patients never develop an understanding of these concepts, the odds are good that the back pain will keep returning and continue to get worse. In the end, it's not what type of professional they choose to see that matters, whether it be chiropractor, physio, osteopath, GP, etc - it's a matter of finding someone that can take the time and has the knowledge to teach them what they've been doing wrong, and can teach them what changes they can make to prevent it from getting worse. I can adjust a patient's back and they'll leave feeling less pain, or they can go to a GP and get pain killers and anti-inflammatories, but if they go home and slouch on the couch for the rest of the day, nothing is going to improve. The practitioner can do their part, but the patient has to do their part as well in terms of posture, exercise, and avoidance of activities that aggravate the condition.

If you want a really interesting read, check out this article by Stu McGill, the world's leading expert on low back pain - it's only 8 pages long but it gives a brief outline of the most recent evidence in treating bad backs.

www.ahs.uwaterloo.ca/~mcgill/fitnessleadersguide.pdf

Brian

It's a pity you're not based in Dublin.

cardio,shoot me

colman1212 wrote: »

I know this is slightly off topic but you say above you should always do equal amount of quad work and hamstring work.
I'm doing rippletoes starting strength at the mo and there are no real hamstring exercises in there. I plan on doing it for the next few months. Is this an issue? or should I add in hamstring exercise..

youd be surprised, squats do work your hammies quite well, so do deadlifts , and to a certain extent power cleans and i think pendlay rows do also, but not sure about the last

toggle

BJohnson wrote: »

Have a read of that link I posted above - it discusses the reasoning behind a focus on low back muscular endurance instead of strength. It also shows a few core stability exercises that can help most people. There really are no simple answers that apply to everybody - it's a matter of tailoring a treatment to an individual's needs. What caused one person's back pain isn't necessarily the same that caused another person's, and treating everyone the same way will only get mediocre results.

Core stability endurance is an important topic for two reasons:

1) the muscles of the core act like a set of guy-wires that hold the spine rigidly in place when they're contracted. They're similar to the guy-wires that hold a radio antenna firmly in the ground off in a field. These muscles form a hoop or brace that wraps all the way around the torso and locks into the spine, giving the spine rigidity. It's not a matter of simply strengthening your abdominal muscles and somehow that makes back pain go away. Proper core stability exercises should focus on training those muscles that form that "abdominal brace", or hoop of muscle, to act as one functional unit.

The key point that is often misunderstood is that you only need to flex the core muscles to 10% of your maximum in order to lock the spine in place, essentially creating a built-in back belt to protect the spine. The main concept is that you don't need to generate a huge amount of power with your core muscles for a short amount of time, you need to generate only a small amount of force (10% of your maximum), but hold it for long periods of time.

For example, I have a patient that works as a chef and has to re-stock his walk-in fridge once a week. While he's lifting and bending and twisting, he has to maintain that light contraction in the core muscles to lock his spine in place to prevent a flare-up of his disc herniation. The job takes him a good 30 mins to do. The same applies to a patient that wanted to get back into running after a disc herniation. We trained his core muscles to be able to remain firm for the length of his run, approximately 30 mins, to prevent any momentary buckling of the spine that could happen with a momentary awkward stride. Professional boxers maintain a light abdominal contraction to keep the core muscles firm so that a body shot won't buckle their spine - again, it only requires about 10% of their maximum contraction in order to protect their back, but they have to maintain that contraction for 3 mins at a time, the length of each round. Building a huge amount of back or core strength and neglecting endurance, in these cases, won't be of much benefit.

2) training the core muscles how to tighten allows for efficient energy transfer between the upper and lower body. An example of this is a high jumper or basketball player. When they perform a jump, they don't bend at the hip, knee and ankle. Instead they take a running start and very quickly and powerfully slap the foot flat against the ground, generating as much power with the muscles of the thighs and buttocks as possible. Simple physics says that the ground exerts the same amount of force back into their body. If they can tighten the core muscles at the exact moment when that force is being transferred up through the legs, the energy gets efficiently transferred through the torso and up into the the upper body, sending them into the air for a maximally high jump. This is also why people in jumping sports should avoid much stretching of their hamstrings. The looser the hamstrings are, the more energy they'll dissipate at that moment of energy transfer. Tight hamstrings act like a tightly-wound spring and transfer more of the energy created during the jump.

A case of this where endurance place a key role would be with a marathon runner. Maintaining a light contraction in the core muscles eliminates any energy leaks between the upper and lower body, allowing for more efficient running. For a marathoner, this requires holding that abdominal brace hours at a time - again, not requiring huge amounts of power, but rather small amounts held for long periods of time.

Great explanation Brian, Stuart McGill is the leading expert when it comes to low back exercises, was lucky enough to attend his seminar a couple of years back. I only use the exercises he recommends for my patients knowing that they are safe and effective.

For those interested in reading more, McGill has two textbooks.. Ultimate Back Fitness and Low Back Disorders, should be able to order them online from amazon etc.

Toggle

d-gal

BJohnson wrote: »

1) the muscles of the core act like a set of guy-wires that hold the spine rigidly in place when they're contracted. They're similar to the guy-wires that hold a radio antenna firmly in the ground off in a field. These muscles form a hoop or brace that wraps all the way around the torso and locks into the spine, giving the spine rigidity. It's not a matter of simply strengthening your abdominal muscles and somehow that makes back pain go away. Proper core stability exercises should focus on training those muscles that form that "abdominal brace", or hoop of muscle, to act as one functional unit.

I think you have drilled this into me around 20 times by now, the guy wires are the simplest explanation!

Hanley

BJohnson wrote: »

This is also why people in jumping sports should avoid much stretching of their hamstrings. The looser the hamstrings are, the more energy they'll dissipate at that moment of energy transfer. Tight hamstrings act like a tightly-wound spring and transfer more of the energy created during the jump.

Just on this... are you saying they should avoid stretching their hamstrings at all, or just prior to competing/training??

Given two identical atheltes with the exact same level of technique and strength, would the one with "tighter" (to an extent obviously) hamstrings jump higher?? I'm assuming the "looser" athelte's done flexibility work in the past and even when cold can stretch further than the former athlete.

It's funny... I had very similar convo to this last night - the whole static stretching debate. My argument was that targeted static stretching's ok in certain instance (ala Joe DeFranco and his hip flexor stretches before VJ tests so they don't inhibit the jump) and outside of immediate training and competition scenarios (just seems to make sense in my head reallY!), but dynamic flexibility/mobility's probably more important as part of a warm up.

The Stuart McGill article was really good too. Thanks!!

d'Oracle

BJohnson wrote: »

Have a read of that link I posted above - it discusses the reasoning behind a focus on low back muscular endurance instead of strength. It also shows a few core stability exercises that can help most people. There really are no simple answers that apply to everybody - it's a matter of tailoring a treatment to an individual's needs. What caused one person's back pain isn't necessarily the same that caused another person's, and treating everyone the same way will only get mediocre results.

Core stability endurance is an important topic for two reasons:

1) the muscles of the core act like a set of guy-wires that hold the spine rigidly in place when they're contracted. They're similar to the guy-wires that hold a radio antenna firmly in the ground off in a field. These muscles form a hoop or brace that wraps all the way around the torso and locks into the spine, giving the spine rigidity. It's not a matter of simply strengthening your abdominal muscles and somehow that makes back pain go away. Proper core stability exercises should focus on training those muscles that form that "abdominal brace", or hoop of muscle, to act as one functional unit.

The key point that is often misunderstood is that you only need to flex the core muscles to 10% of your maximum in order to lock the spine in place, essentially creating a built-in back belt to protect the spine. The main concept is that you don't need to generate a huge amount of power with your core muscles for a short amount of time, you need to generate only a small amount of force (10% of your maximum), but hold it for long periods of time.

For example, I have a patient that works as a chef and has to re-stock his walk-in fridge once a week. While he's lifting and bending and twisting, he has to maintain that light contraction in the core muscles to lock his spine in place to prevent a flare-up of his disc herniation. The job takes him a good 30 mins to do. The same applies to a patient that wanted to get back into running after a disc herniation. We trained his core muscles to be able to remain firm for the length of his run, approximately 30 mins, to prevent any momentary buckling of the spine that could happen with a momentary awkward stride. Professional boxers maintain a light abdominal contraction to keep the core muscles firm so that a body shot won't buckle their spine - again, it only requires about 10% of their maximum contraction in order to protect their back, but they have to maintain that contraction for 3 mins at a time, the length of each round. Building a huge amount of back or core strength and neglecting endurance, in these cases, won't be of much benefit.

2) training the core muscles how to tighten allows for efficient energy transfer between the upper and lower body. An example of this is a high jumper or basketball player. When they perform a jump, they don't bend at the hip, knee and ankle. Instead they take a running start and very quickly and powerfully slap the foot flat against the ground, generating as much power with the muscles of the thighs and buttocks as possible. Simple physics says that the ground exerts the same amount of force back into their body. If they can tighten the core muscles at the exact moment when that force is being transferred up through the legs, the energy gets efficiently transferred through the torso and up into the the upper body, sending them into the air for a maximally high jump. This is also why people in jumping sports should avoid much stretching of their hamstrings. The looser the hamstrings are, the more energy they'll dissipate at that moment of energy transfer. Tight hamstrings act like a tightly-wound spring and transfer more of the energy created during the jump.

A case of this where endurance place a key role would be with a marathon runner. Maintaining a light contraction in the core muscles eliminates any energy leaks between the upper and lower body, allowing for more efficient running. For a marathoner, this requires holding that abdominal brace hours at a time - again, not requiring huge amounts of power, but rather small amounts held for long periods of time.

Great post.
Thanks.

Incidentally, Say Stuart McGill and I think of an angry grey haired Aussie leg Spinner.....

empirix

i am a long time training and to be honest in regard to deadlifts and squatting, i think height can play a major part doing these particular exercises, if your tall and not using proper form your more prone to injury than a short person - thats just my view. I have buggered my knees from football(bad injuries) when younger and so i avoid squats as the pain is quite bad and i am conscious of the effect in later lfe,but i am of the view its really the only exercise that is agonising for the knees, i just feel it while others dont - yet, again this is just my viewpoint, i do deadlifts though, with a belt(i am tall) no worries there for me anyway, hope that helps ya a bit

BJohnson

Hanley wrote: »

Just on this... are you saying they should avoid stretching their hamstrings at all, or just prior to competing/training??

Given two identical atheltes with the exact same level of technique and strength, would the one with "tighter" (to an extent obviously) hamstrings jump higher?? I'm assuming the "looser" athelte's done flexibility work in the past and even when cold can stretch further than the former athlete.

It's funny... I had very similar convo to this last night - the whole static stretching debate. My argument was that targeted static stretching's ok in certain instance (ala Joe DeFranco and his hip flexor stretches before VJ tests so they don't inhibit the jump) and outside of immediate training and competition scenarios (just seems to make sense in my head reallY!), but dynamic flexibility/mobility's probably more important as part of a warm up.

The Stuart McGill article was really good too. Thanks!!

The key with athletic performance is to train to be flexible enough for your sport, but not to train for unnecessary flexibility that will end up hindering performance. In your example of the two basketball players, yes, the one with the tighter hamstrings would be able to jump higher due to less energy loss during the transfer of force from the ground up through the body.

One thing that I find regularly in my practice are high-end athletes that go to yoga classes to improve their performance on the field. There is a common belief that being super-flexible goes hand-in-hand with great athletic performance, even though the evidence shows that's just not true.

A few examples can illustrate this. A sprinter that trains to increase the flexibility in his quadriceps will have his leg fly further behind him with each stride, meaning it will take more energy and more time to bring his leg back into position for the next power stroke. If you train the sprinter to tighten the quadriceps, the leg travels a shorter distance back with each stride, plus the tight muscle and tendon act as a tightly-wound spring, snapping the leg back into position in less time and with less effort. When your sport is measured in hundredths of a second, small things like this count.

With regards to low back pain and flexibility, I have a patient that plays professional rugby and ended up with a disc herniation after getting hit in a match. His coach has the team going for weekly yoga and pilates classes with the idea of increasing team performance. For a rugby player, this isn't a great idea. When this patient goes into a scrum, he needs to maintain a contraction in his core muscles to lock his spine in place to protect his back. Any loosening of his core muscles during an impact could lead to a buckling of his spine, which will worsen his low back pain. Weekly yoga sessions to increase his spine flexibility are counter-productive and increase the likelihood of his spine buckling under impact. Forward flexion of the lumbar spine is what caused his injury to happen in the first place, so why would we want to prescribe an activity that replicates the mechanism of injury? Yoga involves a lot of forward bending, which increases the strain on an injured disc. The more the injury is aggravated, the longer it will take to heal, or the worse it will become.

Don't get me wrong - I think yoga is great, and I refer a lot of patients to a local yoga studio. There are many great reasons for a person to increase their flexibility, but for people with low back disc injuries or athletes looking to improve performance, yoga could do more harm than good.

You're right about Joe DeFranco in "Strong: The Movie", but remember the reasoning behind what he's doing - he talks about stretching the psoas to put the muscle to sleep, not to improve its performance. By stretching it, neurologically you're shutting the muscle down. The psoas limits hip extension, so relaxing it is kind of like "taking the brakes off" the jump. This is a very unique and rare exception as to how a static stretch improves performance.

Most people don't realize that there are over 25 studies on static stretching before exercise, and every one shows the same thing - it increases your chances of getting injured, and it decreases your performance by a significant amount. A static stretch can decrease a muscle's force by up to 30% for up to 30 minutes. It also dampens proprioception in the muscles and joints being stretched. People do it because they've always been told it's good for them, but this idea was based on theory, not research. The evidence is pretty convincing that better types of warm-up exist. A really interesting article that talks more about it can be found here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/sports/playmagazine/112pewarm.html

There was a really interesting podcast from the CBC (Canadian Broadcast Corporation) on exercising myths a few years ago that has some great interviews with sports scientists on stretching before exercise. If anyone is interested in listening to it, PM me and I'll get you a copy.

Colm_OReilly

I haven't read BJohnson's posts (will tomorrow) but on Starting Strength, the back squat is a hamstring dominant exercise.

d-gal

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

I haven't read BJohnson's posts (will tomorrow) but on Starting Strength, the back squat is a hamstring dominant exercise.

A deep squat would have good impact on it but on a normal back squat it's one of the lesser muscles used with obviously the glutes and quads coming first in line. I would disagree still that even on a full depth squat it is not a hamstring dominated exercise, you see more muscle fibre recruitment from the glutes and quads in the overall movement rather than the hamstrings

Hanley

d-gal wrote: »

A deep squat would have good impact on it but on a normal back squat it's one of the lesser muscles used with obviously the glutes and quads coming first in line. I would disagree still that even on a full depth squat it is not a hamstring dominated exercise, you see more muscle fibre recruitment from the glutes and quads in the overall movement rather than the hamstrings

Obvs without seeing EMG analysis I can't "prove" anything, but I always feel deep squats hit the glutes and quads more for me too.