Why Irish railways are under threat!

Judgement Day

The ongoing fiasco of the new 22000 series railcars continues - last Weds. 8th July the Sligo/Dublin service broke down between Collooney and Ballymote. The train was stranded for a staggering four hours with 40 passengers trapped on board. IE have very generously offered all concerned a refund and nothing else despite, in at least one case, a flight being missed at Dublin Airport which resulted in an additional €700 cost to the individual concerned. What a miserable bunch IE are - what would it have cost for each passenger to have - at least - received a complimentary return ticket? Don't tell me all the seats are taken on every Dublin/Sligo train. It is this sort of mind boggling incompetence and contempt for rail users that has resulted in the present mess on our railways. The lines now under threat by the An Bord Snip report have been treated badly for years and the passengers have been deserting them in droves which is why they are now in the firing line. This, of course, suits CIE and their masters in the Dept.of Transport who would like to see the DART as the only heavy rail system left in the country. :mad:

http://www.rivermedia.ie/papers/3dissue/slpost/3DIssue019/start.htm

See page .7.


www.irishrailways.blogspot.com

BrianD

By the same token, Ryanair wouldn't pay for your train ticket if the flight arrived late and you missed yoyr train. I presume the person would have had travel insurance.

Having said tha I wouldn't fancy being stuck on a train for 4 hours.

Judgement Day

Agreed, but then I wouldn't be holding up Ryanair as a standard bearer of passenger care that other operators should aspire to.

alan4cult

Judgement Day wrote: »

Agreed, but then I wouldn't be holding up Ryanair as a standard bearer of passenger care that other operators should aspire to.

Well perhaps you shouldn't expect anything from Irish Rail either. IMO the new railcars are sh1te. Old trains any day for me! I mean some railcars you cannot even walk the length of them because they're joined in the middle meaning that if your friend is on the other part you have to wait until the next stop to swap carriages.

Run_to_da_hills

alan4cult wrote: »

Well perhaps you shouldn't expect anything from Irish Rail either. IMO the new railcars are sh1te. Old trains any day for me! I mean some railcars you cannot even walk the length of them because they're joined in the middle meaning that if your friend is on the other part you have to wait until the next stop to swap carriages.

CIE had the same problem with the AEC Railcars in the 50ies, nothing has changed.

RE 22000, I thought the advantage of these trains was that if one unit broke down they could all pile into the working unit and make it to their destination on time, obviously not. IR made big mistake scrapping so many GM locos, I said it. :rolleyes:

noelfirl

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

CIE had the same problem with the AEC Railcars in the 50ies, nothing has changed.

RE 22000, I thought the advantage of these trains was that if one unit broke down they could all pile into the working unit and make it to their destination on time, obviously not. IR made big mistake scrapping so many GM locos, I said it. :rolleyes:

Hysteria again. How many 22000 class have suffered this fate since they were introduced?

I thought the advantage of these trains was more to do with economic practicalities, including but not limited to fuel efficiencies and accel/decel.

alan4cult wrote: »

I mean some railcars you cannot even walk the length of them because they're joined in the middle meaning that if your friend is on the other part you have to wait until the next stop to swap carriages.

Couldn't you have booked together/stuck together when boarding if on a non-reserved ticket (to find two seats together or nearby)?

dereko1969

have you got a mobile phone? then ring your mate tell them where you're sitting. trains break down, planes break down, buses/cars etc how many of the new trains have broken down compared to those paragons of train spotterdom the locos!??

KC61

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

CIE had the same problem with the AEC Railcars in the 50ies, nothing has changed.

RE 22000, I thought the advantage of these trains was that if one unit broke down they could all pile into the working unit and make it to their destination on time, obviously not. IR made big mistake scrapping so many GM locos, I said it. :rolleyes:

Really and truly, where do you ever stop with this nonsense?

You are conveniently forgetting the failure not too long ago at Killucan of the 071 locomotive hauled service where people had to remain on the train for well over 4 hours. So it happened with locomotives too.

The train in question would have been a 3-car 22000 working on its own. It appeared to fail mid-section (i.e. between stations and passing loops). I don't know what the nature of the failure was, but it obviously was something that meant the train was unable to continue.

What happened then was the nearest train (1105 ex-Connolly) had to split at Boyle, and one of the 2 3-piece sets was then sent to rescue the failed unit.

All of that would have taken time:
1) The second train would have had to have reached Boyle.
2) The driver of the first train would have been following all procedures to establish that his train had indeed failed and could not be re-started.
3) The CTC controller would then have decided how the train should be rescued (i.e. by splitting the 1305 train).
4) The second train would then have to follow strict safety procedures in entering a "section" (i.e. a stretch of single track with no passing loop) that was already occupied by another train, which involves travelling at low speed.
5) The rescue unit then hauled the failed unit to the nearest station so that the passengers could safely disembark.

All of that is governed by strict procedures. You also have the issue that the location where the failure took place is a 27.75 mile stretch of single track, which does limit rescue abilities a tad.

dereko1969

Judgement Day wrote: »

The ongoing fiasco of the new 22000 series railcars continues

Could you please explain what ongoing fiasco you're talking about?

Red Alert

At least if they had push-pull stock rather than the railcars a loco swap would be easier... but anyway. I thought the 22k's can continue with 1-2 failed engines at reduced speed?

Personally I think it's shameful that CIE don't want to develop and run the railways as a profitable business, rather than an unwanted cost-centre. Why are the board still in place?

Judgement Day

dereko1969 wrote: »

Could you please explain what ongoing fiasco you're talking about?

Where would you like me to start?

* Poor initial design specifications - no accomodation for parcels traffic, bicycles.
* Lack of selective door opening.
* Impossibility of moving through the entire train, isolation of the catering trolley at either one end of the train or the other on six-car sets - the 1950s AEC railcars were not like this as they, more often than not, had ordinary carriages added to the middle of the train;.
* The regular failure of the trains in service, the lack of opening windows for air etc.etc......

I accept that loco hauled trains also fail but the main point of my posting was to highlight CIE/IE's contemptuous treatment of the passengers following the Ballymote failure. This lack of care for passengers is a big factor in turning people off rail travel.


PS Bad and all as I consider the 22000s to be I would still like to see them reach the Sunny South East sometime this decade!!!

KC61

Red Alert wrote: »

At least if they had push-pull stock rather than the railcars a loco swap would be easier... but anyway. I thought the 22k's can continue with 1-2 failed engines at reduced speed?

Personally I think it's shameful that CIE don't want to develop and run the railways as a profitable business, rather than an unwanted cost-centre. Why are the board still in place?

They can - but none of us know what the nature of the fault was, except that it obviously was something that disabled the entire train.

dereko1969

Judgement Day wrote: »

Where would you like me to start?

* Poor initial design specifications - no accomodation for parcels traffic, bicycles. - not really needed, very few bicycle passengers, parcelforce lost money
* Lack of selective door opening. - not really necessary
* Impossibility of moving through the entire train, isolation of the catering trolley at either one end of the train or the other on six-car sets - the 1950s AEC railcars were not like this as they, more often than not, had ordinary carriages added to the middle of the train; - why do you need to move through the entire train? again not necessary
* The regular failure of the trains in service, the lack of opening windows for air etc.etc...... - what are you basing regular failure on? trains have air-con no need for any windows to open

I accept that loco hauled trains also fail but the main point of my posting was to highlight CIE/IE's contemptuous treatment of the passengers following the Ballymote failure. This lack of care for passengers is a big factor in turning people off rail travel. - it wasn't comtemptuous, what did you want them to do? as for including the reference about the person missing their flight, same thing happened during fog/snow/rain on the m50 many times, where does it end?

PS Bad and all as I consider the 22000s to be I would still like to see them reach the Sunny South East sometime this decade!!!

you have no basis for any of your points at all

Judgement Day

Dereko1969 - As you clearly have little knowledge of Irish railway operation I am dubious if it is worth trying to explain my points to you but here goes.

Poor initial design: Fastrack not Parcelforce (which is part of the UK mail system) was in part abandoned because of the lack of space on the 22000s - IE's own excuse! Bicycle traffic was always accomodated in the older trains and was another revenue stream not properly marketed.

Selective Door Opening is needed and IE now have it out to tender to have SDO retro-fitted to the 22000s - what more evidence do you need? If it had been thought through properly millions could have been saved on the widescale extension of platform lengths nationwide.

There are all sorts of reasons why a passenger might want to be able to walk through the length of the train - to access the catering trolley, to access toilets if those in your section of the train are engaged or out of order, to find a less crowded/noisy part of the train, exercise etc.etc.

Here is another point I didn't mention - the AEC railcars had big front windows which were popular with travellers for viewing the line ahead - minor point but well..

Visit IRN for details of failures - several recent ones on Sligo line and Gorey. Time and again passengers have complained about overheating and lack of air on so-called air conditioned trains. Do you ever read newspapers, visit IRN, Rail Users Ireland message boards?

So you think just offering a ticket refund is adequate for a four hour delay? If you're not already working for CIE or Ryanair you should send in your CV. I cannot believe that you seriously believe that a simple refund is adequate compensation. Comparing it with a breakdown on the M50 is plain stupid. If you are delayed on the M50 you don't say oh I'm never going to take the car out of the garage again but a four hour delay on a train with a grudging refund is hardly likely to encourage you to take the train again. It is called cutting your nose off to spite your face - commercial suicide! I take it that you're not self employed either?

covert

So, to recap:

one admittedly very bad delay, and refund policies which can be debated

vs

an increase in a few years from 3 trains daily to 8 trains daily on the Sligo, a fairly hefty jump in people travelling on the line, and a definite improvement in overall timekeeping on the route


is enough for you to post a thread entitled:

Why Irish railways are under threat!

Isn't it time for a little perspective Judgement Day? Did a ticket checker shout at you as a child or something? Your hysteria on rail matters is extraordinarily tiresome. You only undermine your own arguments with this type of ranting.

Judgement Day

covert wrote: »

So, to recap:

one admittedly very bad delay, and refund policies which can be debated

vs

an increase in a few years from 3 trains daily to 8 trains daily on the Sligo, a fairly hefty jump in people travelling on the line, and a definite improvement in overall timekeeping on the route


is enough for you to post a thread entitled:

Why Irish railways are under threat!

Isn't it time for a little perspective Judgement Day? Did a ticket checker shout at you as a child or something? Your hysteria on rail matters is extraordinarily tiresome. You only undermine your own arguments with this type of ranting.

My hysteria on rail matters is well founded - after thirty plus years of involvement with railways (through journalism, publishing, train hire, railway preservation and dealing directly with CIE at every level) - what's your experience? If you find my posts so tiring why read them? If you had bothered to read my OP properly you would see that I held up the Sligo line and its recent problems as an example of the malaise affecting Irish railways in general - there isn't room to cover all the other problems in one thread! Still you resort to the old 'if you don't like the message shoot the messenger'. I note your main contribution on the Commuting & Transport thread has been to say that you don't like women who file their nails on trains.:D

D'Peoples Voice

Judgement Day wrote: »

This, of course, suits CIE and their masters in the Dept.of Transport who would like to see the DART as the only heavy rail system left in the country. :mad:

strange that, I would have thought they'd have liked to maintain the Dublin - Drogheda service
I agree with them about the intercity carrying less than 1 million passengers a year - they are just a drag on our resources that could be better spent improving the track at Portarlington.

Most heavily used:

Drogheda-Dublin Commuter: 6.581m

Maynooth-Dublin Commuter: 4.639m

Cork-Dublin Intercity: 2.885m

Kildare-Dublin Commuter: 2.135m

Galway-Dublin Intercity: 1.521m

Belfast-Dublin Enterprise: 1.172m

Limerick-Dublin Intercity: 827,000

Cobh-Cork Commuter: 594,000

Tralee-Dublin Intercity: 540,000

dowlingm

Would like to see the justification for a fleetwide rollout of SDO since the only use I have heard to date is Rathdrum (which can take 6x2800 but only 5x22000).

Fastrack should not be reinstated, but IE *could* offer a tender for parcel companies to operate a Fastrack service on a basis similar to catering (i.e. no/minimal IE staff involvement), co-branded between the courier and the rail company but on a no-lose basis to IE.

I think it behooves Judgement Day to produce mean distance between failure rates to justify the claim re: failures. Climate control is an issue but how many First World train systems are receiving open window railcars as opposed to sealed aircon units?

For those who hark back to the Cravens carriages with opening windows pulled by the beloved GMs -

CATF researchers observed that when a diesel locomotive pulls its passenger cars, the plume of diesel exhaust from the engine blows down onto the cars following the locomotive and invades the coaches.

http://www.catf.us/projects/diesel/noescape/execsummary.php

patrickbrophy18

First, I would like to begin by saying that I feel very lucky to live near a system such as the DART. It is mostly very reliable and gets me into town within 30 minutes. However, in the grander spectrum, a lot of lines are heavily under funded. As well as this, most of the Irish Rail Network is run on single track. This hinders both frequency and the ability for trains to run at faster speeds. Additionally, if a train breaks down as in the case with the Sligo incident, a locomotive should be sent down immediately to push the train to the next station so that passengers can disembark to make alternative travel arrangements. Keeping passengers trapped in a train against their will for 4 hours is an absolute disgrace. I am well aware of passenger safety. Nevertheless, how this particular incident was handled is, in the opinion of many unacceptable. What if one of the passengers was pregnant and suddenly went into an unexpected labour? What if one of the passengers went into a seizure or had a stroke? I am directing these questions to KC61.

KC61

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

First, I would like to begin by saying that I feel very lucky to live near a system such as the DART. It is mostly very reliable and gets me into town within 30 minutes. However, in the grander spectrum, a lot of lines are heavily under funded. As well as this, most of the Irish Rail Network is run on single track. This hinders both frequency and the ability for trains to run at faster speeds. Additionally, if a train breaks down as in the case with the Sligo incident, a locomotive should be sent down immediately to push the train to the next station so that passengers can disembark to make alternative travel arrangements. Keeping passengers trapped in a train against their will for 4 hours is an absolute disgrace. I am well aware of passenger safety. Nevertheless, how this particular incident was handled is, in the opinion of many unacceptable. What if one of the passengers was pregnant and suddenly went into an unexpected labour? What if one of the passengers went into a seizure or had a stroke? I am directing these questions to KC61.

I'm not sure why you are "directing" the points to me - I am not an employee of Iarnrod Eireann. I was merely explaining what the procedure would be in the event of a failure in the Sligo/Boyle section on the Sligo line, and why it wouldn't be resolved in a matter of minutes.

Failures do happen, but thankfully not very often, and very rarely in a manner such as this. This particular one was unfortunate in where it happened, but either way it would have taken a couple of hours at least to rescue the train due to its location. However, expecting a locomotive to be despatched "immediately" to any failure would suggest that you expect a fully crewed rescue locomotive at every passing loop in the country, which frankly is not practical. There are locomotives on standby on the Cork line at Portlaoise and Limerick Junction and in Athlone for the Galway and Mayo lines in the event of failures, but the need for them is limited elsewhere due to the low incidence of total failures.

In this case the nearest train was I understand despatched to rescue the failed train. With the reasonably high frequency on the Sligo line the nearest train is never that far away. However, it had to be split at Boyle, and then under safety rules it would have to operate at reduced speed on the single line section to where the failed train was located. However, a four hour wait does appear excessive I agree, although I don't know how long the wait actually was, as I am only going on the newspaper reports which appear based on a local politician's statement.

As for the limitations of single track, the frequency depends on the availablity of passing loops, but it has to be said that the Sligo line does pretty well with a train every two hours! It has no bearing on the speed of the trains, that is governed by the type of train and the condition of the permanent way.

If there had been a medical emergency I am sure that the relevant authorities would have reached the train somehow, but under normal circumstances the passengers can only be detrained in a station which is what took place. However, reports of people being claustrophobic do raise questions in my mind when they were planning on being on the train for 3 hours in the first place!!!

As for the compensation offered, I'd agree with Judgement Day - a refund really was not sufficient. A couple of return tickets might have been more appropriate given the length of time that the people were on the train.

KC61

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

I agree with them about the intercity carrying less than 1 million passengers a year - they are just a drag on our resources that could be better spent improving the track at Portarlington.

Eh the track at Portarlington has been renewed, relaid and remodelled! The old temporary restriction there is gone.

bigeddie

As a regular visitor to all of Ireland I don't accept that all is doom and gloom with Irish Rail (or with NIR). New trains and track and signalling improvements have generally improved irish railways on both sides of the border. I am not a big fan of railcars (DMUs here in England) as they are noisier than locomotive hauled carriages. Here in the North-East of England we have to suffer 4-wheeled railbuses (called Pacers, very rough riding and old/tired) or Sprinter DMUs (also ancient and tired) even for medium distance journeys - no new trains for us Geordies. The new CAF-built railcars in Northern Ireland appear to be better than what Irish Rail have purchased. Why didn't Irish Rail evaluate prototype railcars before placing large-scale orders? and if these new railcars are as bad as some users claim then why don't Irish Rail push back on the railcar makers? Note I recall being stuck on a GM locomotive hauled train to Sligo from Dublin, several years ago, when the shabby/worn looking locomotive failed. The train was stuck in the middle of nowhere and eventually all passengers were bussed the remainder of the journey into Sligo hours late - no compensation was offered or made available (though I accept that it must be harder to rescue failed trains on a single track line (with passing loups) than on a double track railway). Perhaps Irish Rail suffers from the same kind of failings that British Rail did, though I would not wish the type of privatisation/fragmentation that UK railways suffered on the Irish - yes Irish Rail may have some bad managers but most of it's staff appear to be OK/good.

manc

Judgement Day wrote: »

IE have very generously offered all concerned a refund and nothing else despite, in at least one case, a flight being missed at Dublin Airport which resulted in an additional €700 cost to the individual concerned. What a miserable bunch IE are - what would it have cost for each passenger to have - at least - received a complimentary return ticket?

I wouldn't expect IE to do anything about the missed flight but if your travel insurance should cover this and most airlines would sort you out for the next available flight with a additional fee.

Judgement Day

Time to drag this thread up again I think. Noticed the following on the Irish Railway News site tonight, part of a discussion regarding the threat that the greatly improved road network poses to the survival of the rail network:

'Yes, this is a very VERY serious problem for the rail network and unfortunately it would appear to be going over the heads of the mandarins of Amiens St.

The problem is accentuated by the fact that IE have cut themselves off from a large source of revenue...freight. Freight has always been far more profitable than passenger and as a result it has allowed us to keep much more of the network than would have been the case if the network was run for passenger only.

IE putting all their eggs in the passenger basket has been a serious mistake especially so now that we see an 18% fall in passenger numbers in the first six months of 2009 according to UIC stats. Having shown the greatest fall in freight volume in the railways in UIC's membership for several years now, we now see the same for passengers.

This is clearly unsustainable. And no, it can't all be blamed on the recession....when you hear ex-railwaymen saying they'd rather take the bus because it's more comfortable you know things are well down a slippery slope to extinction.'

Myself and a few others have been preaching this message since 1977 and it just seems that nobody is listening. No amount of spin from Barry Kenny and slick (?) ads featuring Craig Doyle can mask the fact that the railway outside the Greater Dublin Area has become irrelevant to the vast majority of the population. Even groups such as Rail Users Ireland fail to grasp the fact that passenger and freight traffic are inextricably linked and couldn't care less if freight disappears completely. New trains that are supplied complete with defects (Mk4s, and flawed designs 22000s), trains that cannot even carry parcels, extraordinarily expensive reopenings, grandeoise schemes for interconnectors all add up to a railway heading for oblivion. The present Goverment are utterly bereft of ideas about running the railways (or anything else) but realistically do Fine Gael or Labour have a clue either, because if you examine their track record (sorry !) it is fairly attrocious. I'm at a loss as to what should be done but perhaps the anwer is would the last person out switch off the light. :mad:

DWCommuter

For a start I don't and never have subscribed to the IRN member obsession with freight the way they want it. Railways are expensive facilities and in an Irish context they can only be sweat to a certain degree. Freight needs to be huge tonnage to justify regular transport by rail. Thats not a mantra from me, its a researched opinion. Ireland does not have the industry to justify expansion in this area at this moment in time. We no longer live in a world where the local hardware shop collects its delivery from the nearest rail head. This kind of operation worked in an Ireland that was deemed a remote country due to its atrocious road network and equally poor road transport set up. Heavy industry is lacking. But we should have chased it.

As for Rail Users Ireland, lets be honest and call a spade a spade. It is now a mere jolly boys club of nerds and people who depend on the internet to make friends through their closeted love of trains. Its not what it should be and quite frankly its irrelavent now. Thats unfortunate, but sadly very true. Poor profile, predictable campaigns of no inherent value and a forum that's as out of touch with the needs of rail passengers as I am with rocket science. I don't like saying that despite what people may think of me.

Back to freight. I believe the single biggest catastrophe was the closure of fastrack. Such a simple and effective operation. This was a blatant example of CIE thinking. More disturbingly the attitude of internet warriors and that young and foolish shower who now "run" RUI, towards the closure of fastrack, demonstrated a distinct lack of knowledge for what it was actually about. Believe it or not it has slowed the economy and added huge costs to the movement of small goods around the country. That is a fact.

I have been forecasting the demise of inter city rail since at least 2005, due to the motorway network. Since then we have hit recession and that brings obvious problems for the railway. Figures will drop anyway, across both passenger and freight. But the lack of freight is not the reason for the drop off in rail traffic. Lack of demand, due to recession and an improved road and bus network is now starting to eat into the business once coveted by the railway. We have judged the Irish railway network against the back drop of the Celtic Tiger, which means we judged it against a false economy. The time has come to re-evaluate its worth and role in an Irish society that will never again see the madness perpetuated by the construction boom. In fact a real boom generated by industry would aid rail freight, but alas we chose building and when it stopped and we were left with a dependent economy with no industry as such, the hopes for our rail network went with it. Funnily enough our Government and certain lobby groups are still hell bent on reviving the unsustainable monster that is construction, when the country needs sustainable industry to keep not only the railways alive, but the country itself.

Sorry for rambling, but I have the future of Irish Railways articulated a lot better in my book and it will upset a lot of people that usually agree with things I say.

NedNew

I agree with all the above but what killed train travel for me was the 10% rise in ticket prices at the start of this year.

Who in their right mind increases prices at a time like this? When I can get a bus to Waterford or Galway from Dublin for €2 (Bus Eireann Twitter) who is going to fork out huge multiples of that for a train ticket?

I've been driving since February after 5 years of rail. It's a pity really.

AlekSmart

Funnily enough our Government and certain lobby groups are still hell bent on reviving the unsustainable monster that is construction, when the country needs sustainable industry to keep not only the railways alive, but the country itself.

Derek is 100% On-the-Money here !

As we found out last week this NAMA crock o`shyte is geared towards exactly the Wheeler prediction....Let`s get d`oul Property back on the rails.

The very last thing this country NEEDS right now is the return of easily available credit for private house buying.......but,it looks as if that`s what the country will GET thanks to the most incompetent set of Politicians this side of Baghdad !

karlr42

I don't personally believe this but, as food for thought to encourage a debate:
Perhaps the best option for Irish Rail is a mass cutback and focusing all efforts on the Dublin Commuter area, Longford/Hazelhatch/Drogheda/Gorey? The passenger numbers are high enough to (perhaps) run the network at a slight profit. The fact is that Dublin is this country's major population centre, for better or worse, and this is where the passenger demand is- maybe IR should concentrate on servicing this demand above lossmaking Intercity work? The road network is getting better everyday and public transport has less and less demand?

dermo88

That sounds very similar to the strategy recommended in Northern Ireland in the 1960 Benson Report. It would be a step too far.

Some InterCity will survive, certainly, it can compete with road, but it needs to be taken out of CIE's hands, and preferably privatised. Anything that has been rebuilt and relaid survives.

I agree with Dereks point of view regarding railfreight. I quote from an e-mail received from the moderators at IRN. if others on IRN want to get excited over two freight trains per week or whatever else it is they like, then that is their business to do so

Fpr example, one poster states:

I beg to differ, that new IWT liner didn't start out of fantasy land, it took years of hard graft to get the liner up and running, hopefully more freight will follow from the roads onto rails the ideas aren't back-ward, just the thinking of the powers to be.

This after mentioning "fantasy land" which currently exists considering the depth and scope of the economic crisis Ireland faces.

Unfortunately, and I am not proud of this, and stated as much back in 2004 on www.p45.net and the old Platform11 site that I am of the extremely nasty right wing Thatcherite scumbag view, that breaking up and privatising the railway network represents a golden opportunity, at this time to discard a lot of troublesome elements within the CIE group, and that a miners strike style confrontation, closing the railway down for between 6 weeks and 6months is not only desirable, but essential in the context of Ireland today. There are good workers in the organisation, but the likes of the two stooges down in Cork going on strike at a moments notice - which occured on several occasions serves to ruin the company.

I bet they are not going on strike these days!!!

Judgement Day

Dermo88 - it is rare that I find myself in agreement with you - despite my coming from somewhere to far right of Ghengis Khan but I have often considered your idea for the 'final solution' at CIE. However, Maggie Thatcher's confrontation with the miners ended up with the coal mining industry decimated, whereas with Ronald Reagan's firing of more than 11,000 striking air traffic controllers in 1981 (and a life ban on them being employed by the federal government) did not destroy the US airline industry. In the past I would have been against such a policy of confrontation as it would have lost the rail freight business forever, while passenger traffic could always have been won back. Now, with the freight business all but gone there would be little to lose - a six month shut-down - a small price to pay for the ending of CIE. I also would only support such a policy if a Reaganesque attitude was adopted to the re-hiring of militants and any previous CIE management. Sadly our ideas are unlikely to find support at government level.

dermo88

Judgement Day. I will start a new thread on this. There is a way that this can be done, and I am a mild economic nationalist. My term for it is Champagne socialism, and I sincerely believe that a country is more than an economy. A nation, such as Ireland, with its standard of workforce, with the standard of ordinary people are well able to afford Champagne standards. Do we deserve them? We certainly should not demand them. We have to earn them.

BUT.....the world will not hand that to us on a plate. The world will gladly take our brightest and best, turning them into the Kennedy's of Massachusetts, while we made do with the De Valera rejects of Cuba.

IF......Ireland had not blown all its casino chips on trading land, I would not advocate higher taxes, but another solution which has not been attempted in the Western World. It is mildly off topic, but nevertheless related.

1. A borrowing tax.

In the context of a currency union, we forgot that we were part of a greater system. As a child, with perhaps more than 100 Pounds (Irish) in savings, many of us were familiar with 8% or more returns on CASH. I hardly touched that money until I was 15 or 16 as a result, after which I discovered cigarettes and alcohol.

Which is what a "mature" Irish republic discovered.

2. Taxes and pensions.

The whole social security system needs to be restructured.

(a) Pensions invested into projects such as Turlough Hill, etc. Hydropower, and the Interconnector. Its too long to go into here, but the era after the legalised theft that has taken place under NAMA is a golden opportunity to use each citizens PRSI into projects that actually pay an annual dividend.

3. Privatisation.

The very word that scares the living sh1t out of CIE and Slipthru. Can you imagine how motivated a workforce is when they have something along the lines of 2 (a) above. CIE workers do not get a Christmas Bonus. Most of us don't. A low basic salary with bonuses based on performances, WITH workers holding a stake in the company would transform matters.

I happen to know all of this through painful personal experience, from having completely dishonest work colleagues as Union reps. They were only dealt with after I left and went overseas. Once upon a time, in a Galaxy far far away, I sang "we'll keep the Red flag flying"

And then I looked in the safe in the betting office where I worked, and discovered 250 Irish Pounds of forged banknotes that the union rep had hidden, and wanted to blame me for holding. The very same lady I sang that song with the workers from Team Aer Lingus the night before. The very same people I felt solidarity with. The very same people I trusted as genuine ordinary salt of the earth Dubs.

And Ireland is better than that, we can do better, and when it happens, I will return.

When....Berties head is hung on a rope underneath Daniel O'Connells statue on Sackvi....I mean O'Connell street.....before 2016.

Then we can talk of a rising.

Zoney

Privitisation?

Hah! As if that would work here. Even if we avoided Eircom Mark II, it is still likely we'd either a) struggle to find interested parties or b) have crooks rip us off by milking things for as much as possible in the short term with no investment (OK, so that sort of would be Eircom Mark II).

Anyways, I do not understand this blind faith in privitisation.

Better to put the effort into trying (however futile it may seem) to hold politicians and others to account and try and gradually get some improvement in the public sector.

dermo88

I would hardly call it "blind faith". Its not a perfect solution, nor a final solution. The problem is that Iarnrod Eireann are staring at a final solution, where much of the network will go.

There will be another McKinsey style report, and it is going to happen within the next 3 to 4 years. Recessions have always been a catalyst for these root and branch reviews of the railway system, and it is overdue.

But rather than hiring expensive consultants, they know the answers, its staring them in the face, and it has been for years.

Germany, Switzerland, France, Denmark, Italy and more ....all these have private railway companies. More of the network may have survived had publicly funded private rail companies been allowed to operate, but we will never know.

I know only one thing. CIE is a 60 year old dinosaur that must be extinguished. The Irish people know it. The government knows it, but does not have the mettle to grasp the nettle and pull it from the ground.

Heisenberg1

dermo88 wrote: »

I would hardly call it "blind faith". Its not a perfect solution, nor a final solution. The problem is that Iarnrod Eireann are staring at a final solution, where much of the network will go.

There will be another McKinsey style report, and it is going to happen within the next 3 to 4 years. Recessions have always been a catalyst for these root and branch reviews of the railway system, and it is overdue.

But rather than hiring expensive consultants, they know the answers, its staring them in the face, and it has been for years.

Germany, Switzerland, France, Denmark, Italy and more ....all these have private railway companies. More of the network may have survived had publicly funded private rail companies been allowed to operate, but we will never know.

I know only one thing. CIE is a 60 year old dinosaur that must be extinguished. The Irish people know it. The government knows it, but does not have the mettle to grasp the nettle and pull it from the ground.

Did the french goverment not nationalise the entire french network in 1938
to form Société Nationale des Chemins de fer ????

bk

Zoney wrote: »

Privitisation?

Hah! As if that would work here. Even if we avoided Eircom Mark II

In my opinion, some things are run better private and other things are better being public.

The private sector is good at running public facing, efficient services that need to be competitive or die.

What they are not good at is building and running, nationally important capital infrastructure. The return on investment just takes too long (30 years or more).

In the case of Eircom I can directly show that. Eircom should have been split into two companies, a company that owned all the network (capital intensive, but low on employee count) which was kept semi state, while the customer facing end should have been privatised. This would have avoided all the problems with Eircom.

The government is now wisely taking this approach with the ESB.

With rail, this would translate into the government retaining ownership and investment in the network (capital intensive, while low on employee count), while particular routes could be put out to tender to private companies to run, with very strict contractual agreements and schedule, performance, safety, prices charged, etc.

Pretty much exactly what we have seen to work very well with the LUAS, RPA and Veoila.

daheff

KC61 wrote: »

Failures do happen, but thankfully not very often,

i regularily see the 18.35 to thurles / 18.05 to portlaoise breakdown

dermo88

Zoney wrote: »

Privitisation?

Hah! As if that would work here. Even if we avoided Eircom Mark II, it is still likely we'd either a) struggle to find interested parties or b) have crooks rip us off by milking things for as much as possible in the short term with no investment (OK, so that sort of would be Eircom Mark II).

Anyways, I do not understand this blind faith in privitisation.

Better to put the effort into trying (however futile it may seem) to hold politicians and others to account and try and gradually get some improvement in the public sector.

Thanks zoney for pointing this out. It would be stupid and arrogant of me to state that privatisation is perfect. There was one word phrase from a much maligned politician that I could use in a satirical context, but will now use in a realistic context, and that is.

"An Irish solution to an Irish problem".

In many ways, Ireland had it too good. This was reflected in "field of dream" projects, particularly in construction. Transport is just one of many facets of this conundrum.

Ireland demands Scandinavian standards, demands Scandinavian wages, demands Scandinavian prices, and delivers Sub Saharan African standards, Thai service levels, and Eastern European pre communist services.

When I question this, at home on holiday, the following phrases are thrown at me:

"West Brit"
"Unpatriotic"
"Dublin Centric"

Or the biggest insult one can possibly throw at an Irishman.

"Thatcherite"

I am not really qualified to criticise anymore, since I no longer live in Ireland. But my own mother stated that I was not qualified to criticise as I do not pay Irish taxes. But I am more qualified by admitting these faults than UK trainspotters who want white elephants so that they can take a steam engine behind a bunch of Cravens when a branch line reopens, or worse, when a branch line closes.

If we go back to the first pages of the 2,500+ thread on the Western Rail Corridor, it does happen to mention:

"Best International practice"

The people who lobbied Seamus Brennan (RIP) in 2002 who were from both Irishrailwaynews, and Platform11 asked for this, using THEIR collective experience from living overseas and returning to Ireland.

Look - if Iarnrod Eireann do not want to operate Limerick to Ballybrophy properly, and do not want to operate Limerick to Rosslare properly. and have allowed the Dublin to Cork line deteriorate to the point where it has serious speed restrictions imposed, the solution is blatantly obvious.

It won't be perfect. It should be attempted, or tested for perhaps 10 to 15 years. It was the same thing that revived Swedish Railways in the early 1990's when mass closures were threatened there due to loss of traffic to the Airlines. It was the same thing that happened in Britain.

Mass closures did not happen for one reason and one reason alone.

They privatised.

Had they remained as a moribund, state dependent, glorified social employment scheme, mass closures WOULD have happened, because the public sector, which HAS to fund health, education, and a lot more besides would have (rightly) discarded the railways. Do I allow my parents to die on a hospital trolley to keep a railway alive?

Transport is one of many hands demanding of a state that cannot be all things to all people.

Imagine

A motivated workforce getting a reasonable (not brilliant) stable, consistent wage.

The same workforce getting paid a dividend for their shareholding on December 1st, just in time for Christmas, for their families and themselves.

A management motivated to perform, with contractual obligations and paid bonuses to fulfil these.

Thats whats possible. Ireland has smart, educated and ambitious people who can make this possible. The economy might be a mess now, but there is a better way, and this recession, bad as it is, is the catalyst to make things better.

Some form of mild privatisation COULD do that. We can look to all the other nations that did this, and learn from their mistakes, and learn from what they did right. And that way......we can have an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

dereko1969

what exactly is mild privatisation? i'm intrigued.

dermo88

Thanks Dereko1969 for pointing this out, unfortunately, I have not had time to expand on what could be a great opportunity:

1. A clearly defined contractual obligation for service provision, improvements within a set time period is set out on various routes (Sorry, Sir Humphrey Appleby kicked in there lah.............do understand that).

2. The workforce who have been there more than 5 years get an automatic shareholding. Their shares are apportioned according to their record on attendance and discipline, although.....

One gentleman in Waterford, might gain from that, but people may have threads from August 2007 to prevent that.

3. An Annual dividend is declared. Lets face it, unviable Light Railways which were built to serve Dingle, Ballaghadereen, Burtunport were obliged to pay a 5% dividend on GOLD coinage per annum. In 2009 that equates in Irish terms to close on 12% CASH terms.

4. The remainder is floated on the Stock exchange. There are clear obligations to provide (say) a minimum hourly service on Dublin to Cork for 15 Million Euro per annum.

5. Split CIE up completely.

(a) Iarnrod, the infrastructure company, funded by the National Roads Authoriu.
(b) Traein Eireann, the operating company.

I have an old post on this from 2006, and considering what has happened since with Ireland, all I said before will happen soon out of desperation rather than necessity.