What An Bord Snip Nua means for infastructure and transport

rameire

just thought id start it off,
what will an board snip mean for commuting transport and infastructure.

report available here

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0716/Volume%201.pdf

there are a few things that jump out
wetern rail corridor,
roads handed over to nra
cie to sell off expressway service
will report back later with more

Colm R

Rural Transport to be cut back

Road Maintainence to take a hit.

Colm R

* Merging the National Roads Authority and the Railway Procurement Agency - €3m

lucernarian

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0716/Volume%201.pdf

All there in its brutality.

crocro

End of WRC fantasy.

snip report wrote:

no longer justifiable given the significantly reduced Exchequer resources and the existence of other more important expenditure priorities

• NRA and RPA to merge.
• Replace lightly-used rail lines with buses such as:
• - Limerick Junction to Rosslare
• - Limerick to Ballybrophy;
• - Manulla Junction to Ballina.
• Merge RSA with other bodies.
• Sell Bus Éireann Expressway Service
• Cease funding the Rural Transport Scheme
• Discontinue the Green Schools Initiative
• Discontinue the public service obligation payments for regional air services
• Discontinue operational grants for regional airports
• Introduction of road pricing.
• Get rid of 50 people in Dept of Transport
• Reduce expenditure on roads maintenance/improvement by €20m
• Full outsourcing of driver testing and vehicle licensing
• Assign regional roads to NRA

Colm R

crocro wrote: »

Introduction of road pricing.

What is this? Tolls?

SeanW

crocro wrote: »

End of WRC fantasy.

• NRA and RPA to merge.
• Replace lightly-used rail lines with buses such as:
• - Limerick Junction to Rosslare
• - Limerick to Ballybrophy;
• - Manulla Junction to Ballina.
• Merge RSA with other bodies.
• Sell Bus Éireann Expressway Service
• Cease funding the Rural Transport Scheme
• Discontinue the Green Schools Initiative
• Discontinue the public service obligation payments for regional air services
• Discontinue operational grants for regional airports
• Introduction of road pricing.
• Get rid of 50 people in Dept of Transport
• Reduce expenditure on roads maintenance/improvement by €20m
• Full outsourcing of driver testing and vehicle licensing :cool:
  
• Assign regional roads to NRA

I definately agree with the items in bold - but what the hell is meant by "road pricing?" From time to time in the U.K. they discuss mad hatter GPS tracking devices for pay-per-mile tolling :eek: I hope this isn't the plan

crocro

Road pricing is charging people to use roads. It can be anything from simple tolls to congestion charging to roads being charges according to the time of day, how busy they are, your type of vehicle etc. It can be GPS or ANPR tracked.

KevR

I can't really see road pricing happening.

lucernarian

There are thousands of miles of R roads scattered throughout Ireland. I assume the number is printed somewhere. Having all these centrally managed is a bad idea, as the local authorities have all sorts of equipment, yards and even some expertise:pac: in dealing with them. Adding that to the NRA/RPA's remit would lead to not much of a reduction of savings but a large reduction in maintenance capability.

amacachi

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

There are thousands of miles of R roads scattered throughout Ireland. I assume the number is printed somewhere. Having all these centrally managed is a bad idea, as the local authorities have all sorts of equipment, yards and even some expertise:pac: in dealing with them. Adding that to the NRA/RPA's remit would lead to not much of a reduction of savings but a large reduction in maintenance capability.

Fully agree.

thomasj

Introduction of road pricing.

Told you there was an agenda to making all those roads motorway!

BluntGuy

Surprised to see no mention of either the Interconnector, Metro North or (ha) Metro West.

My favorite sentiment has to be though:

In addition, the Group recommends that there should be no further development of the Western Rail Corridor.

I hope the DoT takes serious heed of this.

crocro

missed a beauty: Western Development Commission to be shut down.

Zoney

Wouldn't selling off expressway be shortsighted and given past experience in regulating private companies e.g. in telecoms (or rather, not) would it not result in disaster? Bus Éireann is far from satisfactory, but surely recent experience in the UK with rail (and they with better regulation and more potential profit for operators) shows it's just a more expensive way for the taxpayer to fund services.

The sole benefit would surely be the immediate funds raised.

anotherlostie

Surely the easiest way to implement road pricing is to increase the tax on petrol and diesel? Pay as you use, and all that.

amacachi

anotherlostie wrote: »

Surely the easiest way to implement road pricing is to increase the tax on petrol and diesel? Pay as you use, and all that.

Don't be silly, that sounds like it would be easy and cheap to implement, why would they do that!?

bk

Zoney wrote: »

Wouldn't selling off expressway be shortsighted and given past experience in regulating private companies e.g. in telecoms (or rather, not) would it not result in disaster? Bus Éireann is far from satisfactory, but surely recent experience in the UK with rail (and they with better regulation and more potential profit for operators) shows it's just a more expensive way for the taxpayer to fund services.

No, there is a big difference between privatising vital infrastructure (rail lines, phone lines, roads, etc.) and privatising a simple intercity bus service, that already faces competition from private operators.

Really there is no reason to keep BE public, what advantages is there of it being public?

icdg

bk wrote: »

No, there is a big difference between privatising vital infrastructure (rail lines, phone lines, roads, etc.) and privatising a simple intercity bus service, that already faces competition from private operators.

Really there is no reason to keep BE public, what advantages is there of it being public?

The only reason that the Bord Snip report quotes as that Expressway is cross-subsidising the city bus and rural services.

Probably a better way to go about it would be to sell off the profit-making Expressway and allow local authorities to procure rural bus services by means of public service contracts. The city bus services could remain part of CIE, either as stand-alone operations or a smaller Bus Éireann.

crocro

anotherlostie wrote: »

Surely the easiest way to implement road pricing is to increase the tax on petrol and diesel? Pay as you use, and all that.

the idea is to charge according to the demand for the road. So you pay more to drive on the N11 at 8:30am than you do to drive on the M8 at 3am. Road pricing seems unlikely without a few more public transport projects deployed. And it's only for Dublin, of course.

Chris_533976

A similar fuss was about the carpark charges in big cities that was announced in the last budget. Utterly impossible to implement cheaply.

antoinolachtnai

I find it a little hard to believe that Expressway really makes money. It is certainly hard to believe that every free-standing route is making money.

It is supposed to make money, but I'd be interested to see the accounts broken out for it.

Overheal

rameire wrote: »

just thought id start it off,
what will an board snip mean for commuting transport and infastructure.

report available here

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0716/Volume%201.pdf

there are a few things that jump out
wetern rail corridor,
roads handed over to nra
cie to sell off expressway service
will report back later with more

...What western rail corridor :rolleyes: I mean if they started building that up in the last 2 years finally, fair play to them, but im surprised the west rail has gone as long as it has without a basic link between limerick ennis and galway.

Fact of the matter is the govt doesnt see the value of decentralizing out to the west despite it being a huge opportunity for eocnomic growth. A rail and motorway along there would return billions of euros before you know it.

Unless im totally of my rocker that is.

Capt'n Midnight

Zoney wrote: »

Wouldn't selling off expressway be shortsighted and given past experience in regulating private companies e.g. in telecoms (or rather, not) would it not result in disaster? Bus Éireann is far from satisfactory, but surely recent experience in the UK with rail (and they with better regulation and more potential profit for operators) shows it's just a more expensive way for the taxpayer to fund services.

The sole benefit would surely be the immediate funds raised.

What are the chances the private operators will keep the routes that aren't breaking even or that government will impose and enforce such conditions on them ?

if you think trains in the uk were bad the buses were worse, with 2 bit companies setting up and selling the buses they couldn't use on to the next company , worst I heard was something like 1 in 5 buses inspected failing so badly that they weren't allowed to continue on their journey

but selling off the family silver to cover short term debt is on the agenda

Run_to_da_hills

There is only one word that will describe what an Bord Snip Nua will mean for infastructure and transport and that is DECAY.

A thread was started on this topic last year. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055401995&highlight=decay

shotamoose

Not that I know anything about it, but unless I'm missing something they don't seem to have even considered cutting any of the €1.7bn in capital expenditure on roads. Any particular reason?

spareman

€55 million cut to CIE funding, Amazing how they come up with these figures in such a short time frame, surely to come up with a figure like this they would have to do a route and branch analisis of all CIE operations to see where saving's can be made, Somehow I dobt this happened. They are going run public transport into the ground, Most other countries are increasing capital spending to stimulate growth and recovery, our Government are going to cut and tax us back to the stone age. Interesting they release this report just as they all head off for there 9 week summer holiday's, they really are taking us all for fools.

Sell off expressway or any other public service is just crazy, why not get proper people in to manage these services and keep any profits in our pockets rather than some wealthy business men, If some guy thinks he can make a profit on running public bus services, give the guy a job, don't hand him the profits.

Who decides where the €55m comes from now? How much of that will Dublin bus have to save?

gjim

Zoney wrote: »

Bus Éireann is far from satisfactory, but surely recent experience in the UK with rail (and they with better regulation and more potential profit for operators) shows it's just a more expensive way for the taxpayer to fund services.

Rubbish. I wish people in Ireland would look just a little beyond screw ups in Britain before coming to conclusions on what works and doesn't when it comes to public transport. Private public transport operators are the norm all across Europe. I'm currently in a city with a population of less than 1/2 a million which has at least 10 different private operators running buses, trams, trains and even ferries but you'd never know it because there is a single brand and a single ticketing system (translated, the public transport authority's catch phrase is "one ticket for everything"). The bus system in London is far better now being run by various private operators than it was 15 years ago when it was publicly owned and run to the extent that it is my preferred mode when I'm visiting the city. Most agree that the Luas in Dublin (privately operated) is managed far better than anything IR do. When Dublin had one of the most extensive tram systems for a city of it's size in the world, it had all been built and operated by private companies. Since nationalisation under CIE, the Dublin tram system was dug up and the rail system went into decline for decades. Amtrak in the US is another example of a woeful nationalised transport operator.

It's not about ideology, it's about what works. The evidence all over Europe and our experience in Ireland of public transport nationalisation supports the very opposite conclusion to the one you've arrived at.

Zoney

gjim wrote: »

It's not about ideology, it's about what works. The evidence all over Europe and our experience in Ireland of public transport nationalisation supports the very opposite conclusion to the one you've arrived at.

I would suggest you aren't considering the incompetence of those who would set up and organise this here in Ireland.

AlekSmart

I would suggest you aren't considering the incompetence of those who would set up and organise this here in Ireland

I would heartily endorse Zoney`s suggestion.

Before we go anyplace we need to first ditch this "Bord Snip Nua" business.
There is absolutely nothing Tabloid about the workings and findings of the Expenditure Review Committee`s report and the laughy-jokey moniker only serves to trivialize what is one VERY important body.

In realistic terms the ERC`s transport suggestions are designed to allow the introduction of a Full Road Tolling scheme countrywide on ALL National Primary routes.
The initial moves to ensure a sufficient "return" on this have already been made with the Bus Atha Cliath "Survival" Plan cuts and the impending Bus Éireann service reductions.
Both of these "survival" plans have little actual focus on the Public Transport activities of the companies themselves,but are rather well crafted to ensure a small but significant drift BACK to private car use.

Surely the easiest way to implement road pricing is to increase the tax on petrol and diesel? Pay as you use, and all that.

As anotherlostie points out the ERC and it`s commissioning editors Mssrs Cowen and Lenihan draw back from accepting the simpler and easier methodoligies as practiced in places such as New Zealand (For Road Traffic liability cover)

There is one very good reason for this....The need to provide sufficient trough space for the usual collection of Consultancy Proffessionals and Approved Tenderers to operate and new hi-tech Road Pricing system.

Don`t anybody fret too much though cos most of the actual leg-work is long done,all thats required is i`s dotted and t`s crossed.

I do not believe that the populace-at-large has woken up to the reality of just how rotten to the core our last 20 years of Public Administration has been.

Dáil Éireann is largely a caricature of itself as it enters what could well the last picture show for a democratically elected Government in this country.

There is a significant hardening of public opinion regarding the situation now and this Republic`s interesting but largely unproductive flirtation with self-governance may well be coming to an end.

If I were a Politician I would be VERY careful of my public pronouncements over the next 6 months as all it takes is one stray spark to light a bushfire...and in the current climate these Political chancers should perhaps wonder if they will have any Police Force or Army to enforce the "Will Of Parliament" on a VERY disgruntled citizenry..... :mad:

godtabh

From off the record discussions with DCC I've been told that there is a congestion charge in the pipe line for Dublin for a while. They are just waiting for the right time politically to introduce it.

It was always gona happen at some stage. This might just bring it closer