Would you say Ireland is more or less class based than England?

Affable

I was just reading an article with an interesting quote-

'
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Anti-establishment[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Both England and Australia have strong left-wing political movements that seek to overthrow the establishment. Although strong in resolve, the left-wingers in England have never been able to realise their objectives because ultimate power resides with the Royal Family and House of Lords, both of which attain their position by birthright. No matter how much political support left wingers can gather, they can not gain ultimate power with any method except armed rebellion. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In the 19th century, armed rebellion looked likely, which in turn led to dissidents being sent to Australia. Today, those in power in England have sufficient intelligence to manage the social sphere in a manner that ensures they can hold power forever.'[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I've started to become frustrated with England. Lowest social mobility ever after 12yrs of Labour. Are there other countries that fit my political ideals?[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Is Ireland more egalitarian, like the France aspire to be or the Aussies are?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Is meritocracy free of snobbery possible there. Introduce me to Irish culture and socisl values?
[/FONT]

T runner

Affable wrote: »

I was just reading an article with an interesting quote-

'
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Anti-establishment[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Both England and Australia have strong left-wing political movements that seek to overthrow the establishment. Although strong in resolve, the left-wingers in England have never been able to realise their objectives because ultimate power resides with the Royal Family and House of Lords, both of which attain their position by birthright. No matter how much political support left wingers can gather, they can not gain ultimate power with any method except armed rebellion. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In the 19th century, armed rebellion looked likely, which in turn led to dissidents being sent to Australia. Today, those in power in England have sufficient intelligence to manage the social sphere in a manner that ensures they can hold power forever.'[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I've started to become frustrated with England. Lowest social mobility ever after 12yrs of Labour. Are there other countries that fit my political ideals?[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Is Ireland more egalitarian, like the France aspire to be or the Aussies are?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Is meritocracy free of snobbery possible there. Introduce me to Irish culture and socisl values?
[/FONT]

Our constitution is more egalitarian being based on republican ideals like the French model. I would say that there is a class of elites who are out of reach
of "normals". (There are still Irish Lords in the Lords who own land here still but Im not counting these)

There is a huge middle ground in Ireland and I would say that we have allowed some of the political class and elites to get their often corrupt way.
We have also neglected the people we should be protecting.

Plenty of complaining, not much honest action by some.

I think there is good will here, we just need to push it through like the French do.

Hopefully the next 10 years will see real change not just by lighting fires under politicians arses but by the average Joe soap taking his/her share of responsibility for our society.

Fratton Fred

i would say that whilst Ireland has less of a "Class" structure as such, who you know and what school you went to is far more important and gets you a lot further than in England.

partyguinness

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i would say that whilst Ireland has less of a "Class" structure as such, who you know and what school you went to is far more important and gets you a lot further than in England.

Ha ha we must stop bumping into each other like this..:D

England is defo obsessed with "Class" and "Oh thats just common". In fact there is no comparison. The so called lower middle/middle classes seem to have a huge chip on their shoulder in England. They are far more bolshie/bitter in England than here.

You even get snobby champagne drinking council road workers in England. I know a grit worker with the Council in England who drives a Porsche Cayanne...

We know our place here...:D. It is a perpetual "Keeping up with the Joneses". The lower middle class snobs in England that are the worst and most horrendous people to be around...constantly feeling left out.

Now thats just my experience.

In fact, trying reading the Sunday Times, every second article seems to be about class this class that.

Affable

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i would say that whilst Ireland has less of a "Class" structure as such, who you know and what school you went to is far more important and gets you a lot further than in England.

Yes. Someone told me they had worked in Ireland and it was more cliquey. However, we are still so snobbish, you can't even make your money becuase you are still viewed as not having 'breeding'. The whole notion is to know your place and you can sense the resentment for people who don't want to. The exact opposite is true of the USA.

Sand

i would say that whilst Ireland has less of a "Class" structure as such, who you know and what school you went to is far more important and gets you a lot further than in England.

Id agree with that. There isnt much class identity in Ireland, but there are definitly schools and institutions (Fianna Fail?) where you can make connections that will serve you far better than any qualification.

partyguinness

Affable wrote: »

Yes. Someone told me they had worked there and it was kind of cliquey.

Yes I spend a lot of time there and even had job interviews. Will prob be working there next year if the job market picks up..but yes...there is defo a very very strong undercurrent re class in England...and social climbing seems to be a favourite pass time.

partyguinness

Sand wrote: »

Id agree with that. There isnt much class identity in Ireland, but there are definitly schools and institutions (Fianna Fail?) where you can make connections that will serve you far better than any qualification.

With such a small counrty and population...it's inevitable..everyone knows everyone...connections are important in all walks of life in every country/social structure so I dont necessary believe that's a class thing.

Dob74

Affable wrote: »

I was just reading an article with an interesting quote-

'
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Anti-establishment[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Both England and Australia have strong left-wing political movements that seek to overthrow the establishment. Although strong in resolve, the left-wingers in England have never been able to realise their objectives because ultimate power resides with the Royal Family and House of Lords, both of which attain their position by birthright. No matter how much political support left wingers can gather, they can not gain ultimate power with any method except armed rebellion. [/font]
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In the 19th century, armed rebellion looked likely, which in turn led to dissidents being sent to Australia. Today, those in power in England have sufficient intelligence to manage the social sphere in a manner that ensures they can hold power forever.'[/font]




[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I've started to become frustrated with England. Lowest social mobility ever after 12yrs of Labour. Are there other countries that fit my political ideals?[/font]


[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Is Ireland more egalitarian, like the France aspire to be or the Aussies are?[/font]
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Is meritocracy free of snobbery possible there. Introduce me to Irish culture and socisl values?[/font]

Ireland the class system is alive and well. But it depends what part of the country your in. Dublin is by far the worst. The state subsidies fee paying schools. Which is a major problem in dividing the classes in Dublin. Pretty much all senior state and private sector jobs are held by ex-students of these schools. Limerick is probably second worst, Cork isnt far behind.
The countryside is probably the best place to escape the class society.

I lived in the states for years and while the class system is there it isnt as pronounced as it is in Ireland, most people go to public schools from the very rich to the very poor.

Sand

With such a small counrty and population...it's inevitable..everyone knows everyone...connections are important in all walks of life in every country/social structure so I dont necessary believe that's a class thing.

Its class by another name - it can and does perpetuate itself through generations, with Daddy introducing you to the right people...

You wont have a title, or anything, but you will have the right connections or at the very least every assistance in making the right connections. Look at out political class - how many of them are successful on merit and how many because they are related to or at the very least know the right people?

Fratton Fred

partyguinness wrote: »

Yes I spend a lot of time there and even had job interviews. Will prob be working there next year if the job market picks up..but yes...there is defo a very very strong undercurrent re class in England...and social climbing seems to be a favourite pass time.

The big "Battle" if you like is new money and old money. The old money, the ones who had family in the diplomatic service, or high ranking army etc take a real dislike to the new working class people who have made big inroads into a company, or work or themselves and earn a fortune and can afford to send their kids to the same school as the old money folks.

In the city/banking world, if you went to a certain school and your father has a knighthood then you have a job for life, whereas people from the local comprehensive struggle more. That said, the biggest snobs of all and I believe this applies to Ireland as well as England, are the ones who have managed to marry a man who earns more money than they can spend and therefore think they are somehow better than you are.

Most countries are, i would guess, pretty much the same. if you have the right stuff, such as Sir Alan Sugar (Or is it Lord Sugar now?) then you can make a success of yourself regardless.

mickeyrooo

I think Ireland has the idea of Class ingrained in its cultural and political psyche. Take Dublin as an example...Dalkey Blackrock Sutton Howth Killiney then theres Finglas Tallaght Ballymun Blanchardstown ect. ect. You don't see low cost housing in the middle of Dalkey but there’s tones of it in Tallaght. Keep the rich 'upper class' in certain areas and the poor 'lower class' in certain areas. I'm in Croatia at the moment. A place many Irish people look down upon as they do all of 'Eastern Europe' (as they call it) and there's no class system here. They have the big Ballymun flats everywhere here but you'll meet people from all walks of life in them, professors nurses housewives you name it. It wouldn't be seen at home. It’s getting worse now, socially I mean, since good ole 'democracy' came along but they have a much better social system than we do.

Hookey

Affable wrote: »

Yes. Someone told me they had worked in Ireland and it was more cliquey. However, we are still so snobbish, you can't even make your money becuase you are still viewed as not having 'breeding'. The whole notion is to know your place and you can sense the resentment for people who don't want to. The exact opposite is true of the USA.

Don't kid yourself; even the US has elites (how do you think the Bush family managed to deliver two useless presidents and a governor?), and there's still an old-money and new-money divide. The only difference is that making money isn't frowned upon, even if it won't get you into the right club.

In the UK, the class thing is less extreme than it was, and strangely I found being Irish granted you a kind of exemption; being Irish is cool.

partyguinness

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The big "Battle" if you like is new money and old money. The old money, the ones who had family in the diplomatic service, or high ranking army etc take a real dislike to the new working class people who have made big inroads into a company, or work or themselves and earn a fortune and can afford to send their kids to the same school as the old money folks.

In the city/banking world, if you went to a certain school and your father has a knighthood then you have a job for life, whereas people from the local comprehensive struggle more. That said, the biggest snobs of all and I believe this applies to Ireland as well as England, are the ones who have managed to marry a man who earns more money than they can spend and therefore think they are somehow better than you are.

Most countries are, i would guess, pretty much the same. if you have the right stuff, such as Sir Alan Sugar (Or is it Lord Sugar now?) then you can make a success of yourself regardless.

Yes that has very much sprung up in Ireland over the last 10 years escpecially.

With the construction boom, you have plumbers, builders, etc driving in Mercs, buying second homes and generally living the high life with the new found money. They have passed out a lot of middle class in terms of wealth and that grates.

Why even bother going to Blackrock College, doing a BComm in UCD and then having a nice banking job in Baggot Street if the local builder who left school at 16 can afford to have his children doing the exact same thing..

This is what Sean Dunne was complaining about in relation to the development in Ballsbridge that was refused planning.

He felt that the local objections in Ballsbridge was just old fashioned/old money snobbery. He was/is seen as an uneducated upstart labourer from Carlow who left school at 16 trying to muscle in on leafy Ballsbridge...they want to remind him who is boss..he is only 'new money'...not good enough.

worldrepublic

It's not about blue blood, it never really was -anywhere. It's about how much money you have. The more money you have, the more power you have. Ireland is just any other Western country -a tiny number of super-rich controlling vast wealth and resources. By the same token, western societies taken as a whole control vast and disproportionate wealth, versus an underclass that is the rest of the world. So we're all guilty in that sense.

Under the current monetary system (fractional banking etc.) inequality is foundational and endemic. However, the relatively high standard of living in the West is wholly based (in material terms) on cheap, abundant energy. Enter a debate over "Peak Oil". If energy becomes too expensive for most -it still won't be too expensive for the tiny minority (within a minority) who can afford just about anything. So, in the near future, very few indeed will be laughing.

Enter carbon tax as a political means of curtailing energy consumption. It is a lot easier for politicians to force us to reduce our standards of living if they can can sell it as saving the planet. But, of course, from the perspective of a moneyed elite (do people still deny the existence of such an elite? Even in our "progressive" and "enlightened" western civilisation?) it is about oil and money, period. In sum, we can talk about democracy and equality in conceptual terms, but it's a myth (or a massive hoax?) in material terms.

This is all the main premise upon which the so called "conspiracy theories" are based, but for the most part who really disagrees with it? Of course, calling the moneyed elitists reptilians or whatever does not help the case!

ChocolateSauce

Lol, where'd you get that quote, Affable? Anyone who actually thinks that power in the UK rests with the Lords and Monarchy is tool....but I gathered that also from the "overthrow the establishment" bit.

Anyway, we're somewhat egalitarian, except there is a strong country/Dublin divide, and within Dublin a strong North/South divide, and I mean that last one culturally, not geographically, with the south being the wealthy middle and upper class and the north being the poorer working class.

prinz

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Lol, where'd you get that quote, Affable? Anyone who actually thinks that power in the UK rests with the Lords and Monarchy is tool....but I gathered that also from the "overthrow the establishment" bit.

Was wondering that myself... but it's easier to just knock something down than any learn anything about it... add that to the comment about America being the very opposite..... Hmm someone has a lot homework to do.

The problem in this country is not the class divide etc, it's psychological. It's the total pervasiveness of apathy in our country. Apathy to everything, bad service in a restaurant, bad service in a shop, bad service by the councils, bad service by the government. People accept crap service with a shrug and a 'sure that's the way...'. Look to France as an example, not advocating rioting on the streets but if the government does something unpopular there they know it pretty lively with the "upper classes" and the scumbags side by side looting a supermarket, the same thing happens here and all that happens is Paddy Murphy has something extra to bitch about down a the pub tonight. Just in a barber shop listening to a couple of old fellas complaining about the government, the state of the country, how easy politicians have it, sure they have no work at all and get paid to do nothing, politics in general, I felt like screaming.......if it's so bloody easy get off your arse and do it yourself. But no, this is Ireland, the country where second best (if you're lucky) is always acceptable in all walks of life.

Most people are content to do nothing and blame the 'system', the 'system' is always wrong, whether it's because of the classes or this or that. Every one is content to sit around and blame someone else, begrudgery is rife... sure he's only there because he's related to x, or because his family is y. BS. Make your own luck.

Your place is what you make it. You got dealt a crappy hand in life....... get over it call someones bluff.

Plus Ireland is far far worse for people concerned with branding, labels, what you drink, what you drive etc than anywhere I have ever been. Nothing to do with classes. Again all psychological.

andrew

People on boards always bandy the word elite about, but I've always wondered whether Bertie Ahern be considered an 'elite.' Given his upbringing was pretty normal (didn't go to private schools etc), if he can become an elite then pretty much anyone can!

getz

Hookey wrote: »

Don't kid yourself; even the US has elites (how do you think the Bush family managed to deliver two useless presidents and a governor?), and there's still an old-money and new-money divide. The only difference is that making money isn't frowned upon, even if it won't get you into the right club.

In the UK, the class thing is less extreme than it was, and strangely I found being Irish granted you a kind of exemption; being Irish is cool.

it came as a big supprise to me when finding the class thing in the republic,many irish people have told me about it,the first time i came across it myself,was when i was talking to a cleaner in a shopping centre in killkenny,a well dressed buisness man said something i dare not repeat to her when walking passed,she told me that a lot of people in ireland think they are above everyone else now.and its something she has to live with, but like you are in england,i find that in ireland as irish people hear my english accent they are nice to me

thebman

There is definitely a class structure but I don't think its a big deal here.

Its just people looking down on those with more or less than them.

Then you have people that don't ever seem to get done for their crimes like politicians which is the real problem the country has IMO but its something the people have to sort out. We need to demand better standards from our politicians representing us than we have to date.

I can't believe when I see people stick up for people like Bertie in this country still. I'm sure there are still people that think Charlie was mistreated by the media too

djpbarry

Affable wrote: »

Although strong in resolve, the left-wingers in England have never been able to realise their objectives because ultimate power resides with the Royal Family and House of Lords, both of which attain their position by birthright. No matter how much political support left wingers can gather, they can not gain ultimate power with any method except armed rebellion.

That’s a pretty outlandish statement; the British royal family has been reduced to little more than a tourist attraction.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

i would say that whilst Ireland has less of a "Class" structure as such, who you know and what school you went to is far more important and gets you a lot further than in England.

Adding people to the “who you know” list (or ‘networking’ as they call it these days) exists everywhere, but I’d agree that it is particularly prevalent in Ireland. I’m not sure about the latter half of your statement – having a degree from say, Oxford, will open up certain doors for you in the UK.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Most countries are, i would guess, pretty much the same. if you have the right stuff, such as Sir Alan Sugar (Or is it Lord Sugar now?) then you can make a success of yourself regardless.

I’d agree with that sentiment – I think there’s little in the difference between the UK and Ireland in terms of ‘opportunity’. Anyone can do pretty much anything they want (within reason) if they put their mind to it.

djpbarry

Dob74 wrote: »

The state subsidies fee paying schools. Which is a major problem in dividing the classes in Dublin. Pretty much all senior state and private sector jobs are held by ex-students of these schools.

Got anything to back that up?

Dob74 wrote: »

I lived in the states for years and while the class system is there it isnt as pronounced as it is in Ireland…

Hmmm.. would W. have become president without Senior’s ‘network’?

Dob74 wrote: »

…most people go to public schools from the very rich to the very poor.

Most wealthy Americans send their kids to non-private schools? Are you kidding?

Fratton Fred

The House of Lords has very little real power these days, other than as the highest court in the country. I don't know the actual numbers, but there aren't many, if any, hereditary peers now either, so birthrite has little to do with it. Even the Queen only has a few powers and tbh, she would never use them because if she did, the country would be a republic pretty quickly.

GeeNorm

Affable wrote: »

Is Ireland more egalitarian, like the France aspire to be or the Aussies are

Like many an Irishman, I spent a few years in Australia and was immediately struck by how working class the whole place was. I.e. everyone (even the mega-rich) were working class 'blokes.'

That got me thinking and I have noticed since that although Ireland has tiny working class enclaves and the odd posh niche, we are middle-class to the core. I think our political parties mirror this.

mega man

Affable wrote: »

I was just reading an article with an interesting quote-

'
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Anti-establishment[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Both England and Australia have strong left-wing political movements that seek to overthrow the establishment. Although strong in resolve, the left-wingers in England have never been able to realise their objectives because ultimate power resides with the Royal Family and House of Lords, both of which attain their position by birthright. No matter how much political support left wingers can gather, they can not gain ultimate power with any method except armed rebellion. [/font]
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In the 19th century, armed rebellion looked likely, which in turn led to dissidents being sent to Australia. Today, those in power in England have sufficient intelligence to manage the social sphere in a manner that ensures they can hold power forever.'[/font]




[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I've started to become frustrated with England. Lowest social mobility ever after 12yrs of Labour. Are there other countries that fit my political ideals?[/font]


[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Is Ireland more egalitarian, like the France aspire to be or the Aussies are?[/font]
[font=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Is meritocracy free of snobbery possible there. Introduce me to Irish culture and socisl values?[/font]

ya more or less

worldrepublic

andrew wrote: »

People on boards always bandy the word elite about, but I've always wondered whether Bertie Ahern be considered an 'elite.' Given his upbringing was pretty normal (didn't go to private schools etc), if he can become an elite then pretty much anyone can!

Bertie does not have to be super-rich to be "influenced" by rich individuals or lobbies! Super-rich individuals do not run for election.... they just buy elected officials -it's more efficient. Same goes for professional or lay trade union reps -everyone has their price? If you have vast sums of money you can even buy human organs, or children etc. So it is hard to ignore all of this, albeit what can we do about it? Seems like if there is a "New World Order", or neo-colonialism, or an oligarchy or whatever language is appropriate to a particular discussion, it's a fait accompli. Only a tiny number of people are willing to go to jail or be shot for their beliefs, so nothing really changes. I keep waiting for a news headline along the lines of "Celebrating the world's first woman dictator!", or gay dictator, etc. Then we will all coo and purr and say: look at how progressive and politically correct we are!

Kalashnikov_Kid

I think Ireland is far more of a parochial society rather than a class-based one. So many issues there ultimately come down to where you live/who your family are etc. I spent 3 years in Dublin and the amount of people there who literally wouldn't look twice at me when they heard where I was from (Im Irish) was laughable.

thebman

I never had that problem :-/

Where are you from?

I've been made fun of for where I'm from but I usually brush it off and have a go back. I've never had someone refuse to speak to me because of where I'm from though :-/

Kalashnikov_Kid

thebman wrote: »

I never had that problem :-/

Where are you from?

I've been made fun of for where I'm from but I usually brush it off and have a go back. I've never had someone refuse to speak to me because of where I'm from though :-/

I'm from Dundalk. Well put it this way, after hearing where I'm from they made it very clear of their new opinion towards me and choose when/when not to acknowledge my presence. I think its a 'D4' or UCD thing in general. I'm living in 'stockbroker' Surrey, and I havent received as much hostility as a result of my Irishness. Would potentially put me off returning. Though I remember getting friendly with a girl because she thought Dundalk was a suburb of Dublin

I guess what I'm getting at is there is a huge Dublin v rest of country culture that pervades into business and society in general, as apposed to purely class-based assumptions. Like as someone has said previously, dont think University attendance has as much standing here, as there's only 7 of them and they cover a wide social base.

Kalashnikov_Kid

Actually, this question could be answered better if you compare the political composition of both countries:

UK - Labour: generally speaking urban, working class, state-orientated.

Tories: generally speaking non-urban, middle/upper class, 'free-market' orientated.

This dichotomy has largely existed for throughout the 20th Century and continues today.

However, in Ireland, the political composition is, as someone else I think has mentioned, largely middle-class. Heck, even Irish Labour largely fall into this category.

Then you can compare the media structure of each nation:

UK - Well, you obviously have the tabloids who are perceived as being more 'working class'. But the disparities dont end there with other papers e.g.

On the left, theres the Guardian

On the right there's the Daily Mail (*spits*), the Daily Express and the Daily Tory, I mean Telegraph, who always aligned themselves to a more Tory persuasion.

In the centre are perceived as more middle class 'liberal' publications, like the Times and the Independent.

However, again in Ireland, we just have a large blanket of middle-classness. Irish Times/Independent - essentially the same re: political/social outlook. Was not the case all the time, obviously, but certainly in the last 10 years.

Could Irish tabloids in recent times even be considered 'working class'? I dunno...

Sorry, I'm extremely bored atm

googlefan

England by far. They have a large and long established working class population. Going to University wouldn't enter their mindset, and they would react to you immediately if you told them you were a professional.

Ireland has a more equal setup. First class education at third level is accessable to anyone who wants to work hard enough to attain it. Snobbery isn't an issue in most parts of the country, begrudgery on the other hand is alive and well.

djpbarry

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Irish Times/Independent - essentially the same re: political/social outlook.

Is that a joke?

brianthebard

andrew wrote: »

People on boards always bandy the word elite about, but I've always wondered whether Bertie Ahern be considered an 'elite.' Given his upbringing was pretty normal (didn't go to private schools etc), if he can become an elite then pretty much anyone can!

This just shows that most people on this thread/boards don't really understand how a class system works. On the bertie point as an accountant (qualified if not practising) he would be seen as a white collar and therefore middle class worker, and he qualified at a time when that was less common, which made the position slightly more prestigous. His position as a politician is also a white collar job. Although he did rise to the top of that 'industry', fundamentally there's little difference between the accountant and politician in terms of relationship to the class structure.

Dob74 wrote: »

The countryside is probably the best place to escape the class society.

Dunno where you got that idea from but its completely misguided.

I lived in the states for years and while the class system is there it isnt as pronounced as it is in Ireland, most people go to public schools from the very rich to the very poor.

I assume you never went near poor inner city areas in any fair sized city in the US then?

Ostrom

andrew wrote: »

People on boards always bandy the word elite about, but I've always wondered whether Bertie Ahern be considered an 'elite.' Given his upbringing was pretty normal (didn't go to private schools etc), if he can become an elite then pretty much anyone can!

'Elite' is mostly used here in a 'thems over dere' context as an excuse not to think through class as both a measure of relative affluence/poverty, and as a concept for understanding broader conflicts of interest groups.

'Elite' is usually a tidy precursor to a non-sequitur, recognizable as a general possibility, while eliminating the need to research the historical emergence and development of class conflict.

Kalashnikov_Kid

djpbarry wrote: »

Is that a joke?

No, I honestly cant see much difference, within the last 10 years like. Maybe the Indo is more reactionary against FF but I havent read either much in the last year, so Im not sure

Salvelinus

brianthebard wrote: »

This just shows that most people on this thread/boards don't really understand how a class system works. On the bertie point as an accountant (qualified if not practising) he would be seen as a white collar and therefore middle class worker, and he qualified at a time when that was less common, which made the position slightly more prestigous. His position as a politician is also a white collar job. Although he did rise to the top of that 'industry', fundamentally there's little difference between the accountant and politician in terms of relationship to the class structure.


Dunno where you got that idea from but its completely misguided.



I assume you never went near poor inner city areas in any fair sized city in the US then?

He's a qualified accountant now?

Mother says

Ireland's a queer bird. If you look at our constitution you will see that about 80% is dedicated to describing the powers and architecture of the state. The rights of the people are tacked on almost as an after-thought. They aren't even described. We have what are called unenumerated rights which essentially means that judges decide what our rights are depending on what their mood is that day.
We essentially have a two teir class system. A civil service ruling class who are the ideological decendants of DeValera and an underclass that constitutes anyone who is not in the civil service or a friend of Fianna Fail (the caretakers of Devalera's ideology).
We are provided with state education and shoes for our kids to keep us grateful to the fat teat of the state but are essentially treated as witless children that must be shaped and moulded into a 'proper' society.

andrew

Mother says wrote: »

Ireland's a queer bird. If you look at our constitution you will see that about 80% is dedicated to describing the powers and architecture of the state. The rights of the people are tacked on almost as an after-thought. They aren't even described. We have what are called unenumerated rights which essentially means that judges decide what our rights are depending on what their mood is that day.

As far as constitutions go that's not really queer, most constitutions are like that. Describing the powers and architecture of the state is one of the main functions of a constitution after all.

We essentially have a two teir class system. A civil service ruling class who are the ideological decendants of DeValera and an underclass that constitutes anyone who is not in the civil service or a friend of Fianna Fail (the caretakers of Devalera's ideology).
We are provided with state education and shoes for our kids to keep us grateful to the fat teat of the state but are essentially treated as witless children that must be shaped and moulded into a 'proper' society.

What's DeValera's ideology?

djpbarry

andrew wrote: »

What's DeValera's ideology?

I don't think he would have approved of 'Mother' wasting her time on an internet forum when there's housework that needs doin'.

ninty9er

Sand wrote: »

Id agree with that. There isnt much class identity in Ireland, but there are definitly schools and institutions (Fianna Fail?) where you can make connections that will serve you far better than any qualification.

IMO Ireland has a wealth divide, but a class divide doesn't really exist at all. There is no "political elite". Every TD is elected from the masses and would be one of them otherwise, the majority are freely available to meet constituents at a bit of notice, they may only spend a small level of funding (I know it's not small, but it is comparatively if you've any bit of cop on and had planned for an election). This is unlike the States wehre it takes hundreds of millions of dollars to be elected President, millions to be elected to the Senate and it can take 6-8 months to get an appointment with a Senator or Congressman. There is no "bankers elite", their kids are subject to the same CAO as someone from Ballymun, there is no "developers elite". These are all media myths. These developers are people who took a chance (the typical Irish chancer if you will) and did well for themselves. Hell, Bill Whelan's kids were in my primary school, and I don't even breach the ceiling on upper working class on the ABC1 scale.

Not meaning to be a PITA, but Ireland is just one of those places where who you know can help a lot, but anybody can get to know the "who you know"....and you know what, I'm perfectly okay with that. If anything it helps to break down what minimal class barrier there is.

Also "what school you went to" is a little mythical apart from having attended UCD if you're looking for a job in one of the professions on the Southside of Dublin.

Schools get reputations based on results, not on class. There were people from the richest and poorest backgrounds in Limerick in my secondary school as well as plenty in between.

There are the nuveau riche who aren't really a class, just a load of public servants who have done well out of the Celtic Tiger and see fit (ironically) to send their kids to private and grind schools, but it's not a preserve of class. Your bank balance and not your "breeding" qualifies your entry to such schools here.

Ireland, for all the complaining we do about it, has no airs and graces about itself in general, but like Mr. Tayto says...there's always one!

dvpower

Ireland's 'class system' goes about as far as the phony northside / southside nonsense.

Ostrom

dvpower wrote: »

Ireland's 'class system' goes about as far as the phony northside / southside nonsense.

There aren't any poor outside of Dublin? Or on either side of the 'divide'?

dvpower

efla wrote: »

There aren't any poor outside of Dublin? Or on either side of the 'divide'?

Who's talking about poverty? I thought this was about class.

Ostrom

dvpower wrote: »

Who's talking about poverty? I thought this was about class.

You cant discuss class without encountering poverty/affluence

I dont understand what you mean, can you explain (North/South)?

ninty9er

efla wrote: »

You cant discuss class without encountering poverty/affluence

That's where the argument falls. You can and it has and will continue to be done. This argument isn't about class on the ABC1 scale, it's about class on the breeding scale.

The former exists in every country and is established by economists. The latter exists in colonial countries mainly, but doesn't have a huge base in Ireland.

Ostrom

ninty9er wrote: »

That's where the argument falls. You can and it has and will continue to be done. This argument isn't about class on the ABC1 scale, it's about class on the breeding scale.

The former exists in every country and is established by economists. The latter exists in colonial countries mainly, but doesn't have a huge base in Ireland.

Sorry, my bad. I didn't read the OP

Affable wrote: »

Both England and Australia have strong left-wing political movements that seek to overthrow the establishment. Although strong in resolve, the left-wingers in England have never been able to realise their objectives because ultimate power resides with the Royal Family and House of Lords, both of which attain their position by birthright.

On topic, the distinct friends and neighbours political geography of Irish candidates, and the family/educational lineage of TD's would suggest some sort of exclusive 'class', but nothing along the lines of the visibility of Britiain imo. I'm not sure you could consider Australian and English leftism a real challenge to establishment.

Affable wrote: »

No matter how much political support left wingers can gather, they can not gain ultimate power with any method except armed rebellion

Left alternatives becomes more centred with power, as with green successes in Europe. The British electoral system doesn't serve minority parties well, as in Ireland (debatable...).

brianthebard

ninty9er wrote: »

IMO Ireland has a wealth divide, but a class divide doesn't really exist at all. There is no "political elite". Every TD is elected from the masses and would be one of them otherwise, the majority are freely available to meet constituents at a bit of notice, they may only spend a small level of funding (I know it's not small, but it is comparatively if you've any bit of cop on and had planned for an election). This is unlike the States wehre it takes hundreds of millions of dollars to be elected President, millions to be elected to the Senate and it can take 6-8 months to get an appointment with a Senator or Congressman. There is no "bankers elite", their kids are subject to the same CAO as someone from Ballymun, there is no "developers elite". These are all media myths. These developers are people who took a chance (the typical Irish chancer if you will) and did well for themselves. Hell, Bill Whelan's kids were in my primary school, and I don't even breach the ceiling on upper working class on the ABC1 scale.

Not meaning to be a PITA, but Ireland is just one of those places where who you know can help a lot, but anybody can get to know the "who you know"....and you know what, I'm perfectly okay with that. If anything it helps to break down what minimal class barrier there is.

Also "what school you went to" is a little mythical apart from having attended UCD if you're looking for a job in one of the professions on the Southside of Dublin.

Schools get reputations based on results, not on class. There were people from the richest and poorest backgrounds in Limerick in my secondary school as well as plenty in between.

There are the nuveau riche who aren't really a class, just a load of public servants who have done well out of the Celtic Tiger and see fit (ironically) to send their kids to private and grind schools, but it's not a preserve of class. Your bank balance and not your "breeding" qualifies your entry to such schools here.

Ireland, for all the complaining we do about it, has no airs and graces about itself in general, but like Mr. Tayto says...there's always one!

Nonsense for the most part. You mentioned Ballymun but moved away from that example quite quickly. Probably because it should be clear that those who live in the area are disadvantaged, are lower earners, are living in subpar conditions, have higher levels of disease, crime, etc, etc. All markers of a lower class area. Do you really think there isn't a class divide between the people in Ballymun and D4? What about Moyross, I'm sure this is actually a little egalitarian community of rich and poor people and the media has just spun a load of myths around it, right? There is more to a class system than just education you know; health, food, job security, income, housing, and many other markers. by focussing on the state run education system and depending on personal examples you haven't proven anything.

djpbarry

brianthebard wrote: »

Do you really think there isn't a class divide between the people in Ballymun and D4?

That depends what you mean by “class divide”. There’s certainly a ‘wealth divide’, in that the average inhabitant of Dublin 4 is likely to be substantially better off than a member of the Ballymun community.

But I actually have relatives in Ballymun and I’m not sure they’d appreciate being referred to as “lower class” or “disadvantaged”.

prinz

brianthebard wrote: »

Nonsense for the most part. You mentioned Ballymun but moved away from that example quite quickly. Probably because it should be clear that those who live in the area are disadvantaged, are lower earners, are living in subpar conditions, have higher levels of disease, crime, etc, etc. All markers of a lower class area. Do you really think there isn't a class divide between the people in Ballymun and D4? What about Moyross, I'm sure this is actually a little egalitarian community of rich and poor people and the media has just spun a load of myths around it, right? There is more to a class system than just education you know; health, food, job security, income, housing, and many other markers. by focussing on the state run education system and depending on personal examples you haven't proven anything.

A proper class structure only exists when movement up through the classes etc. is prevent by things being unavailable to you...

Health, food, job security, income, and housing etc are all readily available to anyone who wants them in this country. Your attitude is actually quite patronising as you assume people in these areas don't have the capabilities or wherewithall to take advantage of what's on offer... if they don't that's their problem tbh. All those things you mentioned are available to people in Ballymun or Moyross or anywhere else, with the exception perhaps of job security but that's gone everywhere.

I was in the car recently with my boss going to a client in north Dublin. He pointed out the Ballymun tower block he grew up in. He's a professional, and a partner in a successful professional practice. To all intents and purposes he would be written off as "middle to upper class" if you saw him now, house in Dublin, house in the country, nice car, kids in private schools etc.

Ostrom

prinz wrote: »

A proper class structure only exists when movement up through the classes etc. is prevent by things being unavailable to you...

Health, food, job security, income, and housing etc are all readily available to anyone who wants them in this country. Your attitude is actually quite patronising as you assume people in these areas don't have the capabilities or wherewithall to take advantage of what's on offer... if they don't that's their problem tbh. All those things you mentioned are available to people in Ballymun or Moyross or anywhere else, with the exception perhaps of job security but that's gone everywhere.

I was in the car recently with my boss going to a client in north Dublin. He pointed out the Ballymun tower block he grew up in. He's a professional, and a partner in a successful professional practice. To all intents and purposes he would be written off as "middle to upper class" if you saw him now, house in Dublin, house in the country, nice car, kids in private schools etc.

Can we at least agree that for some reason those of (lower income? realtively limited means? limited mobility?) do seem to be geographically concentrated in certain areas?

irish_bob

prinz wrote: »

A proper class structure only exists when movement up through the classes etc. is prevent by things being unavailable to you...

Health, food, job security, income, and housing etc are all readily available to anyone who wants them in this country. Your attitude is actually quite patronising as you assume people in these areas don't have the capabilities or wherewithall to take advantage of what's on offer... if they don't that's their problem tbh. All those things you mentioned are available to people in Ballymun or Moyross or anywhere else, with the exception perhaps of job security but that's gone everywhere.

I was in the car recently with my boss going to a client in north Dublin. He pointed out the Ballymun tower block he grew up in. He's a professional, and a partner in a successful professional practice. To all intents and purposes he would be written off as "middle to upper class" if you saw him now, house in Dublin, house in the country, nice car, kids in private schools etc.

the left,s apparent concern for the working class often masks a profoundly elitists and deeply patronising attitude , they see them as too inherintly weak , disadvantaged or stupid to make it in life without the state nannying them at all times , hence the screams whenever the issue of reducing wellfare comes up , an overly generous wellfare state robs people of the incentive to better themselves through a solid work ethic and personal ambition