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DAVID ICKE IN DUBLIN 5th SEPTEMBER 2009
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15-07-2009 04:35AM#1
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Does the fact that we're having a second referedum not ring any alram bells in your head?
Lisbon doesn't do anyone any favors.
Ireland was pushed into a Yes vote for the Nice treaty, we were told there would be no jobs in the country and the Celtic Tiger party would come to an abrupt stop. Nice allowed new accession states into the EU, and sure those countries had a right to enter, but it is those countries with their cheaper labour markets and newfound EU membership that have been drawing large footloose international companies out of this country.
In the end the Nice treaty made a huge impact on how this current downturn affected Ireland. With continued direct foriegn investment we could now be in a much better position, but instead the companies that once made our country prosperous are now operating out of eastern euorpean countries with cheaper labour markets.
We got ****ed by the Nice treaty, and in a second referendum.
We priced ourselves out of the market. other countries were happy to accept jobs offered, because Irish people were expecting / demanding wages far above the average. It had nothing to do with Nice. MNC's would have left anyway. It's the nature of business. Do you think if we rejected Nice they would for some reason have stayed here?
Lisbon, if ratified will take away our right to ratify any further treaties.
In anyones language that can only be viewsed in a negative light.
The No campaign last year was seriously shady and the issues they raised were thinly veiled lies. I have no time for Libertas or for Sinn Fein and as far as I'm concerned there are very legitimate reasons for voting No to Lisbon which have been discredited by the involvment of these parties.
Regardless of the bull**** that gets bandied about regarding Lisbon, it is something that should not be ratified.
If you think a Yes vote will make Ireland prosperous again, then you're a very stupid person. If you think that the EU after a Yes vote will be a more democratic place then you're naive to say the least..
I don't think anyone believes we're suddenly going to be prosperous again, but it will have a massive impact on the reputation and standing of the country in the international community, which in the long run can only help/hinder recovery depending on the outcome. A No vote is shooting ourselves in the foot before the race out of recession even begins. The Lisbon Treaty transfers more powers to the Parliament, i.e. the only democratically elected institution....Facts show Lisbon up for what it really is regardless of how many people say otherwise.
What facts and what do they show?
p.s. on topic David Icke's a gobsh!te.0 -
We priced ourselves out of the market. other countries were happy to accept jobs offered, because Irish people were expecting / demanding wages far above the average. It had nothing to do with Nice. MNC's would have left anyway. It's the nature of business. Do you think if we rejected Nice they would for some reason have stayed here?
I don't think anyone believes we're suddenly going to be prosperous again, but it will have a massive impact on the reputation and standing of the country in the international community, which in the long run can only help/hinder recovery depending on the outcome. A No vote is shooting ourselves in the foot before the race out of recession even begins. The Lisbon Treaty transfers more powers to the Parliament, i.e. the only democratically elected institution....
What facts and what do they show?
p.s. on topic David Icke's a gobsh!te.
I understand that we priced ourselves out of the market. But the accession states offered a quick get out for the foriegn companies that previously wasn't present. Footloose companies never stick around forever, but we could have held those jobs for a few more years and given ourselves a chance to steady our ship properly. I'm not naive enough to believe that these companies were going to stay here forever but the accession of new states with cheaper labour markets via the Nice treaty accelerated the process much to our detriment.
The situation we find oursleves in now is almost impossible to solve. Having a good standing in an undemocratic EU system will not change that. In essence there's very little we can do to make our situation worse than it already is or is going to become.
We're a country with no valuable natural resources, we got rich off the back of large multinational companies who took advatage of our cheap labour markets(and who will do the same in every country in which they operate eventually) and we have deluded oursleves into thinking that we can once again become a major economic force. We have nothing that anybody wants, just like we did in the 80's, being realistic we never had anything other than a cheap labour market and a lower rate of corporate tax. We no longer have a cheap labour market and now the EU will have the power via Lisbon to raise our corporate tax rates so we won't have an "unfair" advantage over other EU countries in attracting business. In yet YOU have the great idea that Lisbon will enhance our economic prospects. We only had two tricks up our sleeves to attarct direct foreign investment and we're about to be without either of them. Now that clever isn't it?
As for your point about democracy, do you not think that the people should have a voice? Do you trust politicians to always have the best interests of the people at heart?
When you take the people out of the political equation you hand free reign over to those in power and after all, if we've learned anyting from our species history it is that we are incredibly fair and just when given absolute power, or maybe not, perhaps you could enlighten me on that issue.Glazers Out!
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As for your point about democracy, do you not think that the people should have a voice?
Yes, and the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty allow more powers and competencies to the Parliament... which is more democratic, since that is elected by the people.. I agree the EU is not perfect, Lisbon is not perfect, but it is a step in the right direction. It's a lot better than the present set up. You argue that the EU is undemocratic, but yet you won't vote for change? . All the no campaigners have had the same angle on this, the EU is x, y and z boo boo boo. Yet they will vote no, and nothing will change, which means the EU stays exactly the way it was before and they can complain about it more. Circular argument.Do you trust politicians to always have the best interests of the people at heart?
In Europe, yes.When you take the people out of the political equation you hand free reign over to those in power and after all, if we've learned anyting from our species history it is that we are incredibly fair and just when given absolute power, or maybe not, perhaps you could enlighten me on that issue.
The Lisbon Treaty gives the average person more of a hand in running the EU not less. It also allows for more democratic decision making at state level. 0 -
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Yes, and the provisions of the Lisbon Treaty allow more powers and competencies to the Parliament... which is more democratic, since that is elected by the people.. I agree the EU is not perfect, Lisbon is not perfect, but it is a step in the right direction. It's a lot better than the present set up. You argue that the EU is undemocratic, but yet you won't vote for change? . All the no campaigners have had the same angle on this, the EU is x, y and z boo boo boo. Yet they will vote no, and nothing will change, which means the EU stays exactly the way it was before and they can complain about it more. Circular argument.
In Europe, yes.
The Lisbon Treaty gives the average person more of a hand in running the EU not less. It also allows for more democratic decision making at state level.
There is no point in debating with you. You're mind is made up.
You're entitled to your opinions but believing that all MEP's have the wishes of the people at heart all the time and that by signing away our right influence the power stucture we gain MORE control then you must have a screw loose.
I notice that you didn't respond to the points I made about Nice and the accession states and their affect on our current economic dilema.
Perhaps it's because I used facts and not half baking opinions. But then you can prove anything with facts cant you?Glazers Out!
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There is no point in debating with you. You're mind is made up.
You're entitled to your opinions but believing that all MEP's have the wishes of the people at heart all the time and that by signing away our right influence the power stucture we gain MORE control then you must have a screw loose.
No. Having problems with the current set up. And rejecting improvements on the same grounds as the problems you already have, that is having a screw lose. If you want to blame the ills of the world on the NWO and elites etc go ahead.I notice that you didn't respond to the points I made about Nice and the accession states and their affect on our current economic dilema.
Perhaps it's because I used facts and not half baking opinions. But then you can prove anything with facts cant you?
What facts exactly? The accession states were already there. MNC's didn't relocate because we passed Nice. They would have gone anyway Your argument doesn't stand up whatsoever. Most MNC's are relocating beyond the accession states now, India, China etc. What EU Treaty are you going to blame for that? The accession states would have helped our economy if the minimum wage had not of been brought in incidentally. As basic wages would have been brought down by labour arriving into Ireland willing to work the same jobs for less. Which would have brought costs down etc. You think all the companies went east because of Nice? Half baked opinions is right. By the way I didn't see any facts in your posts care to point them out? Saying that all politicians don't have the best interests of the people at heart is not a fact. 0 -
No. Having problems with the current set up. And rejecting improvements on the same grounds as the problems you already have, that is having a screw lose. If you want to blame the ills of the world on the NWO and elites etc go ahead.
What facts exactly? The accession states were already there. MNC's didn't relocate because we passed Nice. They would have gone anyway Your argument doesn't stand up whatsoever. Most MNC's are relocating beyond the accession states now, India, China etc. What EU Treaty are you going to blame for that? The accession states would have helped our economy if the minimum wage had not of been brought in incidentally. As basic wages would have been brought down by labour arriving into Ireland willing to work the same jobs for less. Which would have brought costs down etc. You think all the companies went east because of Nice? Half baked opinions is right. By the way I didn't see any facts in your posts care to point them out? Saying that all politicians don't have the best interests of the people at heart is not a fact.
I was talking about the EU, not the far east in regards to direct foreign investment leaving our country as it was in the context of the debate.
I do not see how Lisbon improves the EU, it does change it in as much as it centralizes power and reduces the amount of people who have influence over it, which is the opposite of what you seem to believe.
If you don't see any facts in what I'm saying then it's because you wish not to. I don't see many in your posts but I'm not arrogant enough to believe that everything I say is 100% correct.
If you want to believe that the EU is a nice cuddly institution be my guest. As I said before your mind is closed and you believe that everything you say cannot be challenged. It is impossible to have a discussion with somebody with such narcissism inherint in their personality.
There is huge amounts of evidence to support the NWO conspiracy, more than I could be bothered to quote here, or what you would be bothered to read.
I understand that you believe yourself to be my intellectual superior, you're a very egotistocal person and those things go hand in hand.
I used to have beliefs very much like yours, but I had to question the world around me, and my opinions shift with each new piece of information I come across that challenges my beliefs.
If you go through life believing in the same set of ideals you're closing yourself off from ever really learning anything because you will warp the facts in front of you to fit your own beliefs. I used to be like that myself, but I had to reailse that I didn't have the answers, and I never would have claimed to have known everything, much like I'm sure you don't, in yet I found it was my right to bad mouth other alternative opinions when I had no right to do so.
I'm sure you will come back at me and refute whay I have said and paint me in a negative light and that is your right if you feel the need to do so.
However I must congratualte you on taking the thread completely off topic and castigate myself for allowing you to bait me in such a manner.Glazers Out!
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I was talking about the EU, not the far east in regards to direct foreign investment leaving our country as it was in the context of the debate.
And I responded to your point about the accession states, and asked you a question about MNC's relocating further afield...I do not see how Lisbon improves the EU, it does change it in as much as it centralizes power and reduces the amount of people who have influence over it, which is the opposite of what you seem to believe.
It gives the democratically elected Parliament more power.....fact.If you don't see any facts in what I'm saying then it's because you wish not to. I don't see many in your posts but I'm not arrogant enough to believe that everything I say is 100% correct.
Simply because you haven't given any facts..If you want to believe that the EU is a nice cuddly institution be my guest. As I said before your mind is closed and you believe that everything you say cannot be challenged. It is impossible to have a discussion with somebody with such narcissism inherint in their personality.
I already made clear that the EU, IMO, is not perfect and has a long way to go before being "nice and cuddly". Once againThere is huge amounts of evidence to support the NWO conspiracy, more than I could be bothered to quote here, or what you would be bothered to read.
I could be bothered to read anything of worth.I understand that you believe yourself to be my intellectual superior, you're a very egotistocal person and those things go hand in hand.
How do you come to that understanding?I used to have beliefs very much like yours, but I had to question the world around me, and my opinions shift with each new piece of information I come across that challenges my beliefs.
So basically you're easily led and influenced, believing what people tell you to believe. Hmm.If you go through life believing in the same set of ideals you're closing yourself off from ever really learning anything because you will warp the facts in front of you to fit your own beliefs. I used to be like that myself, but I had to reailse that I didn't have the answers, and I never would have claimed to have known everything, much like I'm sure you don't, in yet I found it was my right to bad mouth other alternative opinions when I had no right to do so..
You're voting no on an EU Treaty you obviously are having difficulty (a) understanding and (b) accepting is not part of some NWO elitist lizard-man conspiracy. I don't know everything, I never claim to. I am always open to challenging my own beliefs.I'm sure you will come back at me and refute whay I have said and paint me in a negative light and that is your right if you feel the need to do so.
However I must congratualte you on taking the thread completely off topic and castigate myself for allowing you to bait me in such a manner.
If you're going to call me an egotistical narcissist then yes I feel the need to do so. So much for taking in new information and 'challenging' your beliefs.. you're obviously completely closed off to reality. If David Icke is, as I expect he is, here to give a talk on the EU and the Lisbon Treaty then no I haven't taken it off topic. Given the OP that's exactly what he is doing.0 -
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