Here comes the abortion debate!..

The_Minister

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0715/1224250694946.html
3 women are going to the ECHR to try and challange Ireland's ban on abortion.

That means the abortion debate will raise it's ugly head once more, and we all get to hear the fundies argue over whether it is murder or a right.

These debates always sink so low, they tend to scrape the bottom of the barrell.:pac:

My name is URL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJulhGUh8vU

Joe Cool

Abortions for some...miniature American Irish flags for others!!

TheZohanS

We should abort this thread!

enniscorthy

Joe Cool wrote: »

Abortions for some...miniature American Irish flags for others!!

D.E.F.O.

Karl Hungus

I'd be willing to grant that it is extinguishing a life, but the crux of the issue is that we're not exactly at a loss of new lives being born into this world. We've probably got too many. Abortions should be mandatory.

brendansmith

Maybe if they legalised abortion we wouldnt have so many skumbags etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impact_of_Legalized_Abortion_on_Crime

minidazzler

Abort this operation.

The_Minister

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I'd be willing to grant that it is extinguishing a life, but the crux of the issue is that we're not exactly at a loss of new lives being born into this world. We've probably got too many. Abortions should be mandatory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV71QNHnNMQ

If you support abortions on the basis of cost to society, do you support mandatory abortions for those who will give birth to babies with defects which will cost the state hundreds of thousands extra over the child's lifetime?

/grabs popcorn

barleybooley

*Mutters* Not in my back yard I say because that's where I keep my wire hangers. Oh dear.

RandolphEsq

Abortion as an option for all; the stress and burden of a baby must be acknowledged as well as the rights of the living and for me they outweigh the supposed infallible right to life of an unborn child. Look after the living first! New lives aren't exactly tough to create.
Who wants to come over and help me polish off this 1 litre of Captain Morgans?

The_Minister

brendansmith wrote: »

Maybe if they legalised abortion we wouldnt have so many skumbags etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impact_of_Legalized_Abortion_on_Crime

The original paper
Critique of paper
Critique of paper
Critique of the critique by the authors

Brought to you by the Expand Your Horizons Forum!
Located under Soc.

TheZohanS

The_Minister wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV71QNHnNMQ

If you support abortions on the basis of cost to society, do you support mandatory abortions for those who will give birth to babies with defects which will cost the state hundreds of thousands extra over the child's lifetime?

/grabs popcorn

Godwined on 9...not bad.

HalloweenJack

brendansmith wrote: »

Maybe if they legalised abortion we wouldnt have so many skumbags etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Impact_of_Legalized_Abortion_on_Crime

I was just coming onto this thread to post about the chapter in Freakonomics on this subject. I found his explanation fascinating. It was a brilliant argument on his behalf.

Karl Hungus

The_Minister wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV71QNHnNMQ

If you support abortions on the basis of cost to society, do you support mandatory abortions for those who will give birth to babies with defects which will cost the state hundreds of thousands extra over the child's lifetime?

/grabs popcorn

I wouldn't support abortions for those who will give birth to babies with defects because of the physical comedy those babies provide. So there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpRqvCps_MQ

jumpguy

My name is URL wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJulhGUh8vU

I'll add my 2 pence...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKTiwCez6Zs

Biggins

At least we can still have debate.

See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8150616.stm

brendansmith

The_Minister wrote: »

The original paper
Critique of paper
Critique of paper
Critique of the critique by the authors

Brought to you by the Expand Your Horizons Forum!
Located under Soc.

It makes sense though dont you think?

PS: Nice one on the smarmy post, you put me in my box.

The_Minister

brendansmith wrote: »

It makes sense though dont you think?

PS: Nice one on the smarmy post, you put me in my box.

I wasn't being smarmy, the paper was posted in the thread applying for the Expand Your Horizons forum, and several relevant links were also posted.
I thought you might be interested.

And the original figures are wrong, so while the effect seems to be real, it is not as pronounced as originally thought.

The_Minister

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I wouldn't support abortions for those who will give birth to babies with defects because of the physical comedy those babies provide. So there.

/Slaps forehead

How could I have forgotten to consider the ramifications for spontaneous physical comedy?

genericgoon

The_Minister wrote: »

I wasn't being smarmy, the paper was posted in the thread applying for the Expand Your Horizons forum, and several relevant links were also posted.
I thought you might be interested.

And the original figures are wrong, so while the effect seems to be real, it is not as pronounced as originally thought.

Also, it is important to note the original authors in no way approved abortion as a way to reduce crime. Thats not to say they disapproved either of course.

Treora

That's not an abortion debate - http://www.makenoiseforfreechoice.eu - now that's an abortion debate.


{god, my aussie accent is rustie}

javaboy

Treora wrote: »

That's not an abortion debate - http://www.makenoiseforfreechoice.eu - now that's an abortion debate.


{god, my aussie accent is rustie}

No it's not. It takes two sides for a debate.

K-9

Must be that time of the month again.

PS. I mean time to have an abortion debate on AH AGAIN.

I'm sure this one will sort the matter out for once and for all.

drunkmonkey

Treora wrote: »

That's not an abortion debate - http://www.makenoiseforfreechoice.eu - now that's an abortion debate.


{god, my aussie accent is rustie}

if it's free ones there after, i've got an auld Nilfisk 2000 out the back, do you want to stat lineing them up?

Mr Benevolent

I can convice the government to legalise abortion in 20 seconds. I'll just tell them that they can apply an Abortion Registration Tax. Simple and effective. It'll mean more income and more jobs for Ireland.

Seriously though, the choice should be there.

KnifeWRENCH

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Abortion as an option for all; the stress and burden of a baby must be acknowledged as well as the rights of the living and for me they outweigh the supposed infallible right to life of an unborn child. Look after the living first! New lives aren't exactly tough to create.

That would be my view aswell. I do believe abortion should be legalised in this country, though perhaps with a cut off point (i.e. no potential-baby killing after the thing is x number of weeks old)

As regards the article, I do support those womens' actions. Particularly the poor woman at risk of ectopic pregnancy.

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I wouldn't support abortions for those who will give birth to babies with defects because of the physical comedy those babies provide. So there.

You, sir, are a legend!

K-9

Confab wrote: »

I can convice the government to legalise abortion in 20 seconds. I'll just tell them that they can apply an Abortion Registration Tax. Simple and effective. It'll mean more income and more jobs for Ireland.

There's a flaw in that theory. A little short termist?

Sorry for the pun.

Karl Hungus

Knife-WREEENCH wrote: »

You, sir, are a legend!

Thanks, but I always thought of myself as a myth.

The_Minister

K-9 wrote: »

There's a flaw in that theory. A little short termist?

Sorry for the pun.

No-one's even noticed the one in my OP:(

K-9

The_Minister wrote: »

No-one's even noticed the one in my OP:(

The ugly head or the scrape the.......................you sick b*stard!

grenache

I've learned from experience to never, ever, get into a debate about abortion with a woman. Especially if you don't know her past/background. I also get the feeling (mostly from younger women) that men's opinions on abortions are irrelevant since we're not the ones carrying the child and don't have to bear the mental scars of any potential operation. I've also yet to come across a woman under 30 that is pro-life.

K-9

grenache wrote: »

I've learned from experience to never, ever, get into a debate about abortion with a woman. Especially if you don't know her past/background. I also get the feeling (mostly from younger women) that men's opinions on abortions are irrelevant since we're not the ones carrying the child and don't have to bear the mental scars of any potential operation. I've also yet to come across a woman under 30 that is pro-life.

You may find that a woman may change to pro life when she is physically faced with the predicament.

Debating an issue and actually being faced with it are totally different things.

devereaux17

just allow them, its a very backward custom imo which is portrayed as being 'progressive' but for the love of zeus irish people who want abortions will have them anyway, going to london or now i hear helsinki or whatever i presume is not what it used to be like in the past anyway, if someone says u bring shame for having an abortiont tell them to **** off simply.

CathyMoran

grenache wrote: »

I've learned from experience to never, ever, get into a debate about abortion with a woman. Especially if you don't know her past/background. I also get the feeling (mostly from younger women) that men's opinions on abortions are irrelevant since we're not the ones carrying the child and don't have to bear the mental scars of any potential operation. I've also yet to come across a woman under 30 that is pro-life.

I am 35 now but I was always pro life, though I do agree to abortion in limited circumstances such as if the mothers life is at risk (physical health), if the baby would die just after birth or if the mother needs serious medical treatment such as chemo that would damage the baby so badly that it would be seriously ill/die. I did not read the article but surely a woman who has an ectopic has a right to an abortion? I should also state that I have a lot of sympathy for those who do have an abortion.

Edit: I do feel that the father has rights too - not to stop a pregnancy but to stop an abortion unless it was a case of rape - I may be in the minority there...

midlandsmissus

Anyone else shown the horrific abortion video in school?

I'm actually really angry that I was made watch it as it was the most horrifying video ever.

It showed the baby while it was being aborted.Not sure how old it was, it was very small, but it was old enough to move about.
The video showed a long needle going into the womb and piercing the waters. The baby starts flailing around. Then a vacuum goes in and actually sucks the baby into it. All the time the baby was fighting and flailing around and you could see that it was in EXTREME pain. Honestly it was the worst thing I ever saw.
Stupid religious school showing us the most shocking thing they could find to put us off abortion.

Well it worked.After seeing that baby in pain,there's no way I agree with it.

studiorat

Moot point whether it's legal or illegal here in Ireland. It would probably be cheaper to travel to the UK or Mainland Europe for one anyway...

Abi

Midlandmiss - I'd be pretty angry with that video you were shown too. Were you given the option of seeing it?


This I agree with:

Medical abortion treatment
Medical abortion or the abortion pill (also known as ‘early abortion’) is an alternative to surgical abortion and is available before nine weeks of pregnancy. This type of abortion means taking two sets of pills (orally) over two visits (24 or 48 hours apart) which causes the passing of the pregnancy.

You may experience discomfort, very strong cramps and heavy bleeding with medical abortion (the abortion pill). This normally lasts for a few days until the pregnancy has passed.

The abortion starts within four to five hours after taking the second set of tablets and is usually completed within one to two days of taking the tablets. Very occasionally it can take up to two weeks to pass the pregnancy.

This I do not:

Surgical abortion
Surgical abortion is the most common type of abortion and is a simple procedure where gentle suction is used to empty the uterus. It is possible to have a choice of anaesthetic although in the early stages of pregnancy many women choose to have no anaesthetic or light sedation.

Some discomfort may be experienced by women who opt for surgical abortion which can be like a very strong period pain. As everyone experiences pain differently it is impossible to generalise on how you may feel. Most women who choose to have no anaesthetic report that any pain is bearable, only lasts a very short time and quickly subsides once the procedure is over.

Handsome Bob

I hate this debate, I really do.

Firstly, I do feel uncomfortable with the idea of extinguishing a life. I cannot shake the feeling that if abortion became legal, we're not upholding our duty to protect children from serious harm. I don't want to hear any talk directed at me about "when life begins" as for me, the moment you become pregnant you are carrying a life.

That being said, my quaker-like (I'm not religious) attitude doesn't allow me to pass judgement. I cannot tell someone else what to do with their body, that's not my place.

As I said, I hate this debate.

Fozzie Bear

CathyMoran wrote: »

I am 35 now but I was always pro life, though I do agree to abortion in limited circumstances such as if the mothers life is at risk (physical health), if the baby would die just after birth or if the mother needs serious medical treatment such as chemo that would damage the baby so badly that it would be seriously ill/die. I did not read the article but surely a woman who has an ectopic has a right to an abortion? I should also state that I have a lot of sympathy for those who do have an abortion.

Pretty much sums up my feeling about it to the word.

An Fear Aniar

This is good timing. With any luck we'll get another NO vote on the Lisbon Treaty. That would be sweet.

Also, this just in: abortion is killing people, it's bad. It's one of the few things I agree with the Catholics about.


.

Dyr

Look, all the gubberment. has to do is hold repeated referenda until we vote the right way and allow abortion. It's standard operating procedure at this stage .

upmeath

The end of the article offers a bit of hope, saying Poland was brought to offer abortion in some cases. I think it's about time the people of Ireland took their heads out of their ar5e5 and offered people choice instead of dictating how others should lead their lives because they're on a moral high horse.

Dragan

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I'd be willing to grant that it is extinguishing a life, but the crux of the issue is that we're not exactly at a loss of new lives being born into this world. We've probably got too many. Abortions should be mandatory.

The usual, "life is sacred" thing will be trotted out by those who like to make that argument, while they sit on their ass while millions around the world diet of hunger and poverty and disease.

Life is NOT sacred, their argument is just convenient.

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Also, this just in: abortion is killing people, it's bad. It's one of the few things I agree with the Catholics about.


.

As in "abortion killed my family...and raped my dog".....or as in "I'm privy to some serious scientific/religious quasi data here" or as in "I believe the unborn feteous is a person"?

I assume the later?

all_smilz

upmeath wrote: »

The end of the article offers a bit of hope, saying Poland was brought to offer abortion in some cases. I think it's about time the people of Ireland took their heads out of their ar5e5 and offered people choice instead of dictating how others should lead their lives because they're on a moral high horse.

sure, if it was made legal wouldnt the pro lifers actually have something to do?( ie protest outside a clinic).

ShooterSF

CathyMoran wrote: »

Edit: I do feel that the father has rights too - not to stop a pregnancy but to stop an abortion unless it was a case of rape - I may be in the minority there...

Under the right circumstances I feel the father should have the right to stop or wash his hands of a pregnancy. I have made it quite clear that I never want children and take the precaution of wearing a condom when having sex. I'd also be very wary of having sex with someone who claimed they wanted a child and I always managed to bring this up in gentle conversation.
If I got someone pregnant and they refused to abort it I shouldn't be forced to support the child. I think if abortion became legal here I would need little pre-sex contracts to agree to terminate any mishaps.

tolosenc

The fact that anti-choice groups see the need to enforce laws against abortion makes it very clear that the will of the people is for the option of a legal abortion, as, if it wasn't our will, then the law wouldn't be necessary.

ShooterSF wrote: »

I have made it quite clear that I never want children and take the precaution of wearing a condom when having sex.

Snip snip, no?

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

994

RandolphEsq wrote: »

Abortion as an option for all; the stress and burden of a baby must be acknowledged as well as the rights of the living and for me they outweigh the supposed infallible right to life of an unborn child. Look after the living first! New lives aren't exactly tough to create.
Who wants to come over and help me polish off this 1 litre of Captain Morgans?

In what sense is a foetus not alive?

Chinafoot

One term I absolutely despise in these abortion debates is "pro-abortion". It gets trotted out by the pro-life side constantly. I don't know anyone who would describe themselves as "pro-abortion". I don't know of anyone who thinks abortions are great and would be a fantastic new form of contraception. I'm all for having the option in this country, therefore I'm "pro-choice". Abortion is not something I think I could ever do but it sickens me that the option isn't available to those who need it.

994

Scien wrote: »

Wow.

Form a orderly queue Ladies...

So a woman is not responsible for any child she produces - she can abort or leave it for adoption - but a man is always responsible, despite having very few rights to the child? If woman want full choice, with that choice comes full responsibility.