The value of a cartell.ie report...

Sleepy

€35 to find out that the car I was going to be picking up on Thursday has been clocked. Money well spent.

To be fair, the dealer seemed fairly upset about it so wouldn't cast allegations against him but still, glad I spent the €35!

CountingCrows

OP - got a link to the car in question?
Always interested to see if there's any tell tale signs of clocking.

budhabob

how does cartell work? and how does a buyer get caught with the previous finance issues? I've read bits and pieces bout it, and i see its importance, i'm just not fully up to speed on the topic. any info would be much appreciated.

Sleepy

http://www.longmilemotors.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=200923192989361

mickdw

Id say with a car of that age, if its had a few owners, its going to be clocked at some stage. Sad but its way too common here.

Gregor Samsa

One thing though, as far as I understand it, for original Irish registered cars, Cartell just gets it's mileage records from people entering it when looking up a car - not from any official database. They call it the "National Mileage Register", but that's just their name for their database to make it sound official. So the mileage is not necessarily verified, and I wouldn't count on it solely to determine that a car had been clocked (or not).

I was checking out a few cars recently, and in the process of getting the report, I was asked if I wanted to enter the mileage for the cars in question. I could have entered anything.

The NCT does keep mileage records on all cars tested, but they won't release them for third party use.

For UK registerd cars, (or I assume, cars previously registerd in the UK), they can check the offical UK records, which is fair enough.

Mr Benevolent

JoePublic wrote: »

how drastically had the car been clocked? thousands or tens of thousands? is the dealer going to correct the mileage on it?

The clocked mileage gives just over 10,000 miles per year, which just doesn't seem right. My brother's Bora is the same age and had 172,000 miles when he bought it a year ago. So it's safe to say it's been underclocked by 30 - 40,000 miles.

Sleepy

Dealer was just on to me there with a similar line phutyle. He's contacted CarTell, the NCT crowd and the original owner to ask them to verify the mileage. Presumably they can issue this to him as he's currently the legal owner of the car?

Mileage listed is 108k and he tells me he's adjusted it on carzone now. The CarTell report shows a record of 130k for the car in 2007.The car would have been mid-way through it's ownership at the time the car showed the different mileage in the Cartell database and he has a service record of the belt and water pump being done at 90,000 since the odd mileage report. Could it be a case of Cartell having the mileage in kilometres for this record rather than miles?

darc

Its good to see the dealer take it seriously - fair play to them and it would give me confidence to buy from them.

Nforce

Don't rely too heavily on Cartell. A very good friend of mine had the full Cartell check (€300+) done on a 530d that he was thinking of buying earlier this year. The check came back clean so my mate bought the car.
A few weeks after buying it the car was suffering some minor electrical issues so he brought it to me to run a diagnostic check. On doing so I noticed that the cars vin# didn't match the number in the ecu. Turns out that the car had been cloned and had been sold as part of a large stolen car ring.
Result?...my mate had the car confiscated by the Gardai and is now down €20+ grand.

Sleepy

Confab wrote: »

The clocked mileage gives just over 10,000 miles per year, which just doesn't seem right. My brother's Bora is the same age and had 172,000 miles when he bought it a year ago. So it's safe to say it's been underclocked by 30 - 40,000 miles.

Funnily enough, I'm actually driving the exact same model and year at the moment which has similar mileage. The one I'm driving at the moment is on loan and I've the option to buy it but it's not as clean inside or out and the owner's looking for 3k for it...

I've told the dealer that if he can get me something from the NCT at that time which shows what he's sure is the correct mileage (i.e. what the clock shows) I'm still happy to take the car off him.

Like darc says, the dealer's taken it seriously and I have to say I'm strangely actually feeling more confident about the car than I was prior to this...

Sleepy

Mental. Just got a call back from the dealer there. He's gotten a copy of the car's previous NCT cert which post-dates the record cartell.ie have of this 130k mileage reading and it has a mileage reading in-line with what's on the odomoter and service history.

Now, I may be making the mother of all assumptions here but given the car's history it seems highly unlikely to me that someone would clock their car a year and a half into a 3 1/2 year ownership of that car.

The girl I spoke to from cartell couldn't tell me the source of this mileage figure they had for the car. How the hell can cartell sell you information when they can't stand over it? It seems that any time you enter a mileage figure for a car with them, they take it as the gospel reading for a car. Provides an awful easy way to screw someone over if you know they're trying to sell a car tbh.

Picking up the car on Thursday and while I'll be sure to look over the service history and investigate the NCT cert the dealer picked up today, I'll be looking for my cash back from cartell!

Mr Benevolent

Very interesting Sleepy, makes me very very thoughtful about Cartell. They're a private company after all... if they get the mileage from anyone punching in the numbers then it's not a lot of good. Much obliged for your story and I'm glad you got a good resolution and were able to trust the dealer in the end.

Maybe you did get to see the value of Cartell after all!

BigZack

I agree. Taking mileage readings from Joe public is a very dangerous way to build a database. Accusing a dealer of clocking a car is no laughing matter. The consumer association take it very seriously and with dealers going bust up and down the country I'm sure it's all this guy needed.

I know that Motorcheck only take readings from the INMR (Their national mileage register). As far as I know they don't accept readings from the general public, only impartial third parties.

I hope you asked for a refund on your cartell report!

L1011

Motorcheck's owners operate a large 'virtual fleet' for the purposes of letting people who don't have an actual fleet get a Topaz fleet fuel card as if they did - I sincerely hope they don't log the mileage from this in to the INMR as I've had all sorts of random ones put down on my card by service station staff.

BigZack

Interesting! Have you tried looking up the reg?

Santa Claus

BigZack wrote: »

I agree. Taking mileage readings from Joe public is a very dangerous way to build a database. Accusing a dealer of clocking a car is no laughing matter. The consumer association take it very seriously and with dealers going bust up and down the country I'm sure it's all this guy needed.

I know that Motorcheck only take readings from the INMR (Their national mileage register). As far as I know they don't accept readings from the general public, only impartial third parties.

Taken from the INMR website:

Describing the primary objective of the database, Rochford said “THe INMR has been established in an effort to protect a vehicle retailer from inadvertently misleading a consumer regarding a vehicle’s usage. Users will be able to verify the odometer reading of a used car (as recorded by the previous owner) and record his / her own reading before purchasing or selling it on to a third party. Keeping a record in this way creates an verifiable audit trail of the vehicles history and limits the opportunity for ‘clocking’ throughout its second hand life”.


Sounds to me like it'll be the car trade who'll be inputting the mileage, which for the more unscrupulous dealers is their dream situation !

Sleepy

BigZack wrote: »

I hope you asked for a refund on your cartell report!

I will be doing so once I get the proof that their mileage record is inaccurate...

Can't get past the irrationality of developing a database and not leaving some trace record to indicate the data's source. Incredible lack of knowledge of data management.

stratos

I have bought a lot of secondhand cars over the years, I would always treat the likes of cartell in this country with a pinch of salt. We don't have the infrastructure here for this sort of thing. It's like those huge expensive digital signs on the M1, just there to make us look sophisticated, but not really connected to anything.

I always tend do just buy a car on what I see, and listen to nothing the salesman says he should be completly irrelevant to your decision, except on the price. I think sometimes some people think they are buying new cars when buying cheap secondhand cars.

I have bought some cheap cars with obvious problems (one had a door from a different trim level vehicle on one side ) but the price was right and needs must when the devil drives. Whats on the oddometer is not particularily relevant after 100,000 miles. Buying secondhand cars is always a gamble try to stack the odds in your favour.

I always go into a deal on the worst case assumption that if the car goes wrong the dealer will tell me to go jump( he has your money and it's hard for you to force him to do anything in the real world ), that focuses your mind, on the older stuff I reckon the 3 month warranty is not worth anything. I usually forgoe it for a discount.

Off topic a bit I viewed one car and when I turned up it was dirty not filthy but not cleaned either, this struck me as odd who sells a car below it's best. Turned out a wipe with cloth showed very badly scratched paintwork. Another guy had the heater up on full blast during the test drive it was a summers day. When I turned it off the car overheated. I bought this one however it was just a jammed engine thermostat negotiated a good discount. However my biggest walk away is a car that has its engine warmed up when I arrive there is always some excuse..... walk away.

Henry Ford III

Nforce wrote: »

Don't rely too heavily on Cartell. A very good friend of mine had the full Cartell check (€300+) done on a 530d that he was thinking of buying earlier this year. The check came back clean so my mate bought the car.
A few weeks after buying it the car was suffering some minor electrical issues so he brought it to me to run a diagnostic check. On doing so I noticed that the cars vin# didn't match the number in the ecu. Turns out that the car had been cloned and had been sold as part of a large stolen car ring.
Result?...my mate had the car confiscated by the Gardai and is now down €20+ grand.

That's scandalous.

xt40

i think it was a waste of 35 euro to check out a 2500 10 year old car.
at that age, it wouldnt be on finance and how it clean it looks and how it drives are all you should be concerned about. whether or not it has been clocked or even crashed and repaired is irrelevant at that point.

BigZack

Yeah. But if a genuine dealer has already put a reading in, what can they do? They wont want to be the ones identified as the clocker.

Nforce

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That's scandalous.

Yep....it was a very professional outfit that stole the car. They even had a copy of the vehicle registration certificate for the car! Vin numbers on the strut and windscreen were changed too.
I can't go into too much detail as there's an ongoing Garda investigation. One thing that I'd recommend for anyone buying an expensive car privately is to get a main dealer to run a check on it before purchase and ask them to verify the vin numbers through a diagnostic check.

Sleepy

xt40 wrote: »

i think it was a waste of 35 euro to check out a 2500 10 year old car.
at that age, it wouldnt be on finance and how it clean it looks and how it drives are all you should be concerned about. whether or not it has been clocked or even crashed and repaired is irrelevant at that point.

When it's a car change that you can't afford but are forced into by a jeep totalling your car, you have to be as cautious as you can because if this car starts to fall apart in 3 months, I've no idea how I'll afford another.

Two and a half grand ain't a lot of money but when you've taken a 20% hit on your salary and are stretched badly, there's not a lot of room for error...

Henry Ford III

Nforce wrote: »

Yep....it was a very professional outfit that stole the car. They even had a copy of the vehicle registration certificate for the car! Vin numbers on the strut and windscreen were changed too.
I can't go into too much detail as there's an ongoing Garda investigation. One thing that I'd recommend for anyone buying an expensive car privately is to get a main dealer to run a check on it before purchase and ask them to verify the vin numbers through a diagnostic check.

It also highlights one of Cartell's biggest shortcomings compared to HPI. No warranty if the report is factually innaccurate.

Sleepy

HPI?

Theta

I thought milage was now recorded at the NCT and added to a national database??

r3nu4l

Henry Ford III wrote: »

It also highlights one of Cartell's biggest shortcomings compared to HPI. No warranty if the report is factually innaccurate.

Sleepy wrote: »

HPI?

HPI is badly flawed too, don't rely on that chaps!
See here for more.

smash

Sleepy wrote: »

The girl I spoke to from cartell couldn't tell me the source of this mileage figure they had for the car.

A friend got a report from HPI before and the car had 17,000 on it - he accidentally typed in 71,000 and got his report. When he went back to get a 2nd report and typed in 17,000 he got a message saying it had altered mileage and that the previously recorded mileage was 71,000.... He called HPI and got it sorted but maybe cartell take previously entered mileage on report requests too, so maybe someone type in KM instead of miles on a previous report.

Sleepy

irlmarc wrote: »

I thought milage was now recorded at the NCT and added to a national database??

If that's happening, cartell ain't using that database or are suplementing it with something else. Haven't seen the cert myself yet but the dealer has the previous NCT cert with the correct mileage on it.

Scarlett68

I did a Cartell check today on a car that I was very interested in buying.....it was marketed as an "irish" car which is what drew me to it. Anyway the report informed me it was not an Irish car but it was a Japanese import that spent 2 years in Japan, and was then imported to the UK where it spent 4 years before finally making its way here. All in all it has had 6 owners but the dealer lead me to believe it only had 2. I have walked away from pursuing the car. So I dont know about the mileage issue but Cartell has proved most useful in this circumstance

I dont know if the dealer is aware of the situation.....should I be telling him??

Sleepy

I would. In my case it turned out that it was cartell that was wrong...

If the dealer's unaware of it he should be grateful to you for pointing it out. The market is tough enough for them without getting their name dragged through the mud for something that wasn't their fault (though tbh, it sounds far less likely that the dealer in your case is acting in good faith!

Nicolaa

Cartell does hold the National Mileage register NMR in Ireland, like our counterparts and partners HPI in the UK. HPI started the NMR in the UK in the late 1990’s. It is a privately run database to help decrease and ultimately prevent clocking in the UK. We at Cartell have had the benefit of their knowledge through our partnership with HPI. Our NMR like HPI’s has many different data sources including consumers and dealers. We do however have other third parties contributing to the NMR. Incidentally, less than 10% of readings in Cartell’s NMR are from consumers. For some vehicles there are many mileage readings from the various contributors – this of course helps to see where an incorrect mileage reading may have been entered addressing the KM/Miles dilemma mentioned by steve06.

There are many reasons why a specific data source is not disclosed, the main one being data protection, which we must adhere to.

A car check and a mileage check is a tool to help you make an informed choice prior to purchase. The more information you have to hand before buying a car puts you in a beneficial position to decide whether to go ahead with the purchase or
indeed get a better price, whether you are the consumer or a dealer taking a trade in.

Like the AA inspection, Cartell pre purchase inspections are carried out by fully qualified Automotive Engineers only. I would be very interested in the vehicle you mentioned NForce. You might be so kind as to send it to me on the Contact Cartell link on www.cartell.ie

C.D.

Nicolaa wrote: »

Like the AA inspection, Cartell pre purchase inspections are carried out by fully qualified Automotive Engineers only.

I doubt they are Engineers accredited by Engineers Ireland. They are no doubt fully qualified mechanics however- just using misleading and ill-informed titles.

dsane1

Just a side line on Cartell. I had an issue with them about a car that they showed as nct expired when it was'nt . It seems they're information maybe a bit like wikipedia ,needing to be verified .

Nforce

Nicolaa wrote: »

I would be very interested in the vehicle you mentioned NForce. You might be so kind as to send it to me on the Contact Cartell link

Thanks, Nicolaa. I'll contact the buyer of the car and let him take it from there.As I've mentioned previously, this car, along with the rest of the vehicles sold and held by the crime ring are subject to an ongoing criminal investigation by the Gardai so he may not be at liberty to divulge the car's registration number's (both real and fake). I believe the car had also been linked to an armed robbery prior to my mate purchasing it.

Regards,
Nforce

L1011

stratos wrote: »

It's like those huge expensive digital signs on the M1, just there to make us look sophisticated, but not really connected to anything.

http://www.nratraffic.ie/vms/default.asp

Not only are they connected to something, the drivetime is relatively accurate except when sudden delays appear. The NRA actually have a fairly decent networked system of traffic counters, signs, traffic sensors and weather stations which are all publically available on that site.

Sleepy

Nicolaa wrote: »

There are many reasons why a specific data source is not disclosed, the main one being data protection, which we must adhere to.

I'd almost laugh if the issue at hand wasn't so serious. The data protection act in no way covers the level of detail requested - a generic source could be provided easily without contravening the Act e.g. 'Online Report Request Entered Value', 'NCT Cert', 'Mileage at Sale Date' etc. could be given without coming within a whisker of the Data Protection Act, which is designed to protect the personal information of an individual.

An internet forum is a bad place to try and bull**** someone Nicolaa. You've no knowledge of who you're talking to. For what it's worth, I work with Credit Card and Direct Debit Mandate processing systems so am very well versed in the Data Protection Act, PCI-DSS compliancy etc.

Cartell should not be issuing such an unreliable (and manipulable) source of data as fact when dealing with something that could have a devastating impact on someone's profession. If I hadn't been reasonable with the dealer in question I could have had a severely negative impact on his business.

ninty9er

I'm making an assumption, but I doubt anything has changed since I posted this:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56258379&postcount=1

That is a quote VERBATIM from the report.

Leon1812

Hi, I have used Cartell on a number of occasions in the last three years, twice on importing Mercs from the UK and once here from a SIMI accredited garage. In the first instance the UK seller also provided a HPI report which matched up with what Cartell had supplied and this gave me confidence, the Irish garage also showed me their report and it to matched what cartell had provided me with also. If crooks and/or anyone else is determined to cheat you of your money its well acknowledged that the good/ successful ones are generally one step ahead of the authorities however what purchasing a report from Cartell did give me was some level of peace of mind and the knowledge that in conjunction with my own checking was that I was making the most informed decision that I could in purchasing a car, whether it was for 10, 20 or €30,000. To date, what has been purchased has been what it was suggested it was - Money well spent in my opinion!

Fishtits

I bought a motor for herself that was an insurance write off, panel damage only, nil recorded on Cartell.

My own car has 20 odd records against it on initial query. Have owned it for over ten years, no penalty points etc, was bought for cash, ie no finance, I wonder what the history they are trying to sell me is?

NCT records?

stratos

MYOB wrote: »

http://www.nratraffic.ie/vms/default.asp

Not only are they connected to something, the drivetime is relatively accurate except when sudden delays appear. The NRA actually have a fairly decent networked system of traffic counters, signs, traffic sensors and weather stations which are all publically available on that site.

Surley sudden delays are when you need the reports, not slow obvious ones. Telling you there is delays achieves nothing you are already on the motorway. The M1 is too short and has too few interchanges for this info to be of any use. Imho it's just window dressing. These signs in the uk suggest alternative routes for miles ahead. Use of hard shoulder as a lane. and mandate speed limits to avoid motorway stop, Over hundreds of miles of motorways. ah that little laneway we call the M1. My tax Euros well spent .

Nicolaa

The Automotive Engineers that carry out Cartell pre purchase inspections are registered with the IMI www.imi.ie in Ireland. Interestingly, some of the Automotive Engineers carrying out work for Cartell used to carry out inspections for the AA. https://www.cartell.ie/moreinfo4star.jsp

Santa Claus

Nicolaa wrote: »

The Automotive Engineers that carry out Cartell pre purchase inspections are registered with the IMI www.imi.ie in Ireland.

The IMI as in the Irish Management Institute ? My brother has a masters from the IMI in management so can he carry out pre-purchase inspections for cartell ??

I hope you spend more time checking your sources of information for car reports than you do checking links you post!!!!

Nicolaa wrote: »

Interestingly, some of the Automotive Engineers carrying out work for Cartell used to carry out inspections for the AA.

The AA have their own staff engineers to carry out inspections in Dublin/Leinster and they sub-contract the service outside of there (I think it's a firm based in Cork that cover the rest of the country).
I know they review these sub-contractors each year so saying they USED to work for them could well mean they were found not to be of an acceptable standard for the AA.....that's interesting alright !

C.D.

Nicolaa wrote: »

The Automotive Engineers that carry out Cartell pre purchase inspections are registered with the IMI www.imi.ie in Ireland. Interestingly, some of the Automotive Engineers carrying out work for Cartell used to carry out inspections for the AA. https://www.cartell.ie/moreinfo4star.jsp

I think you might mean http://www.simi.ie. I'm sure that they are qualified to carry out inspections etc., that they are fully qualified mechanics etc. etc.. BUt everybody seems to be an "engineer" these days even if they are doing no engineering or have any formal qualification in engineer. IMO "Engineer" should be a protected title, not just "Chartered Engineer" as it leads to too much confusion amongst the general population.

For example, I have talked to people who think that somebody who has a degree in automotive engineering fixes cars or works for cartell.. They don't, they would be the people who design cars- the engineers who work for VW, BMW etc. Huge difference. One is a mechanic, the other is an engineer.

Barr

I cant see the point of checking milage from Cartell - do the NCT keep a record of milage and can you get access to it ?

Santa Claus

C.D. wrote: »

For example, I have talked to people who think that somebody who has a degree in automotive engineering fixes cars or works for cartell.. They don't, they would be the people who design cars- the engineers who work for VW, BMW etc. Huge difference. One is a mechanic, the other is an engineer.

There are motor engineers however which are engineers as opposed to mechanics and carry out damage assesments for insurance companies etc.

Nicolaa

Apologies to all, I entered the incorrect URL,
IMI stands for the The Instititue of the Motor Industry, please visit http://www.motor.org.uk/ for more information.
I'm a newbie w.r.t. posting on forums so please bear with me, I promise to get better, I will try to answer your questions and address any queries you may have.

Nicolaa

Santa Claus,
You are correct. All Cartell engineers work or have worked as insurance assessors, so they know exactly what they are looking for. On several occasions our engineers have been asked to inspect a car that they have themselves written off only a few months beforehand.

Santa Claus

Nicolaa wrote: »

On several occasions our engineers have been asked to inspect a car that they have themselves written off only a few months beforehand.

Shouldn't a write off be flagged on the cartell database before you send an engineer out to do an inspection. I thought even the most basic cartell report should tell you if it was an insurance write off ??

C.D.

Santa Claus wrote: »

There are motor engineers however which are engineers as opposed to mechanics and carry out damage assesments for insurance companies etc.

Ahh this is exactly what I'm getting at! Engineering is defined as the application of maths, science and technology through design to improve the quality of life in society. Having had a look at the SIMI website they do not offer Level 7/8 degrees (nor do they accredit engineers or even mention them) which is the generally accepted minimum educational qualification to be accredited as an engineer either here or abroad. I'm not saying assessors/mechanics etc. are unskilled, I'm merely pointing out that the term has become watered down beyond recognition- everywhere I look I see "engineers"- e.g. "waste disposal engineer" (mostly binmen..)

In all other EU countries (apart from us and the UK) engineer is a protected title that has is awarded after 3rd level education, several years of experience and CPD. In Ireland, the protected term is Chartered Engineer.