Violent clashes in Northern Ireland.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Does anyone want to talk about this ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8148955.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/13/police-ardoyne-orange-order-parade

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0713/breaking69.htm

Rioters clash with police on Ardoyne march route

IRISH TIMES REPORTERS

Three officers came under attack from youths who hurled stones, masonry and six petrol bombs at them in Rasharkin, County Antrim.

A police woman was also hurt tonight in separate disturbances at the nationalist Ardoyne shop-front flashpoint in north Belfast.

Police were attacked by rioters at the sectarian interface ahead of a controversial parade by a local lodge returning from the main Belfast demonstration.

Throughout the evening bricks stones and bottles were intermittently thrown at police lines at Ardoyne shops which are along the contested route.

In the back alleys around the shops young masked men, some carrying iron bars, gathered with bottles to make petrol bombs. At one stage a masked youth was seen arriving with a plastic petrol container so others could fill the petrol bombs.

At about 6.30pm some of these youths began throwing these bombs at the police who were in full riot gear. These and other missiles were hurled at officers in a sustained period of trouble.

Police in full body armour made an assault on some of the rioters gathered at the shops to try to force them back into the side streets shortly before 7pm.

Water canon were also brought to the scene of the disturbances. A police helicopter also monitored the scenes.

Sporadic attacks on homes and properties outside Belfast, mainly in Co Antrim also continued today.

A petrol bomb was thrown at an Orange hall at Main Street in Rasharkin, Co Antrim on Sunday evening but it failed to ignite. A 38-year-old man has since been charged with attempted arson.

Officers also came under further attack today with missiles during a security operation in Armagh.

They were dealing with a bomb which exploded in the Friary Road area of the city earlier. Police said four people were arrested for public order offences and minor disturbances with several petrol bombs thrown but no injuries.

There were two cars stolen but police and local representatives are working to restore calm.

In Derry police officers were on duty on the streets of the city following minor disturbances which followed the first July Orange Order parade to he held in the city since 2005.

The officers were deployed when a group of nationalist youths clashed with loyalist youths as bandsmen returning from the Field following the procession. The incidents took place in the Diamond area of the city centre as the three local lodges walked through the city centre at the end of the day’s parade.

So what's going on then ? A return to days many people thought were over ? Are the same old arguements coming out about territory and all that ? The news reports mention "young males" so is this the cliche of young dissafected males from impoverished areas turning to whatever violence they feel like ?
On RTE's news video clip I saw one young fella throw a rock and then make gesture to himself which would be described as "YES!!!" as if he'd just scored a goal. Has the media just overblown a non-story ?

blackgold>>

Probably only want their country back.

mike65

12th and all that. Tis summer and the living isn't easy.

conchubhar1

dont march to celebrate a 200 odd year old battle.... and you wont have people rioting against you

conchubhar1

conchubhar1 wrote: »

dont march to celebrate a 200 odd year old battle.... and you wont have people rioting against you

When did maintaining a tradition become a defence to criminal acts?

There's a lot of people in this part of the world who celebrate the birth, and mark the crucifixion, of a prophet 2000 years ago. Would it be right and proper to throw petrol bombs and stones to stop such triumphalism as the crowds exit mass next 25th December?

mike65

Of course, republicans can justify pretty much anything when it comes to trumped up, imaginary oppression.

djpbarry

blackgold>> wrote: »

Probably only want their country back.

Here's hoping that someday, in the not too distant future, the Orange lads and the dissident republican lads will realise they are from the same country.

FlutterinBantam

Look, what you have here is recreational rioting orchestrated by a few shadowy figures in the background .

You see, these punters are usually unemployed,or in dead end jobs,quite happy to take the Queen's shilling on the giro.

Gets a bit boring during the summer so what better than bait a few orangemen and peelers,do a bit of damage,the taxpayer will pay,and we will have a good nights crack.

At the end of the day that's what it is,nothing to get too excited about and certainly nothing to do with "getting our country back"

It'll last a week or two.

Joey the lips

I read this thread about an hour after it was posted. I am convinced of 2 things.

The op knows the outcome of this discussion

any poster with genuine comment will stay far away from a riot like this.

I have nothing to ad but leave it to you to argue about nothing!

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

Scien

Scien wrote: »

Never, but no doubt we'll see scenes like this every year as long as this "tradition" of Bigotry, Provocation & blatant Triumphalism continues.

It's still no defence to thuggery, violence and blatant criminality.

There is an old saying about sticks and stones doing a lot more damage than words or gestures, and it seems particularly apt when comparing the wrongs last night.

FlutterinBantam

Scien wrote: »

Never, but no doubt we'll see scenes like this every year as long as this "tradition" of Bigotry, Provocation & blatant Triumphalism continues.

One man's bigotry and provocation is another man's tradition.

All depends on from where you are standing friend.

devereaux17

i seen some images of the riots and quite simply they were just northern irelands version of scumbags.

Hagar

Deleted User wrote: »

When did maintaining a tradition become a defence to criminal acts?

Exactly, well said. Nationalists also have a long standing tradition of hurling bricks at triumphalist sectarian bigots.

LordSutch

I saw some images of the riots on the TV last night, and I got the impression that it was just an excuse on the part of just (a few) so called nationalist scumbags to attack the police, on what would have been an otherwise trouble free & enjoyable 12th.

P.S. I hesitate to use the term 'nationalist', because they 'the rioters' are an insult to the true meaning.

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

Exactly, well said. Nationalists also have a long standing tradition of hurling bricks at triumphalist sectarian bigots.

You missed the most important word.

Criminal acts?

Bit of a difference between hurling bricks on one hand and 'triumphalism' on the other. I might come out of Catholic mass next Sunday looking very smug indeed and strut right past my Protestant neighbours in my best suit. I'm not committing any crime that I know of. But if responds by throwing a brick, well you know who commits the offence.

Hagar

Isn't "incitement to commit violence" a crime in the North? "Let's go down and goad the Paddys"

How else would a sane person describe those marches?

FlutterinBantam

Since when is doing something others may object to, like cycling through red lights, marching behind the Artane band in Croke Park, walking three abreast on a narrow footbath be termed as "goading"

Objectionable to some perhaps, but "goading"

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

Isn't "incitement to commit violence" a crime in the North? "Let's go down and goad the Paddys"

How many arrests do you envisage at the next Corpus Christi procession through your town as they goad the "Proddies" by marching up and down main streets?

I would have thought the first requirement of incitement to commit violence is to encourage the crowds to use violence? Did this happen at any of the parades or any of the speeches yesterday. I'm really not sure that manifestation of a pseudo-religious allegiance, even if it seems nonsense to most, is incitement per se.

LordSutch

Hagar wrote: »

Isn't "incitement to commit violence" a crime in the North? "Let's go down and goad the Paddys"

How else would a sane person describe those marches?

Were this years 12th parades sanctioned by the parades commission, or were they not?

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

LordSutch

With respect, the parades did seem to have massive support along the main marching routes (apart from some areas), and this new idea of giving the 12th a 'carnival feel' is a very good move. Its a family day out, and its now attended by people from all over the world, who incidentally, witnessed the stone throwing yobbos from the nationalist side (not good for their image).

The 12th is the Orange culture, its not hurting anyone, they love their marching, they love their bands, and its been there for hundreds of years, what would you have them do? ban all parades? ban the culture?

Biggins

Right, lets cut to the chase.
There are a number of things that stick out for me concerning both sides.

1. The Orange order wants to parade. Fair enough.
2. Some of the Orange order want to parade in order to try and preserve their ancient history and traditions in the mind of todays population. Fair enough, I can understand that.
3. There is a small element in the Orange order that wants to march to just to antagonise the Catholics. Thats the minority scumbag element creeping in.
4. On the Catholic side, those that have caused the latest trouble too are in the vast minority and are not wanted - again the scumbag element.
The troublemakers want to portray the image that ALL Catholics feel the same way and might want to resort to this behaviour. The vast peace liking majority DON'T I suspect.
5. There is a small element in the Catholic side that wants to riot to just to antagonise the protestants.
6. The Catholics up the north also want to see that their way of life, history and traditions are preserved too. Fair enough, that too is quite understandable.

Long story short. We have now two ancient, historical communities that have traditions, history and a common link. The island of Ireland.
We should in this modern age be coming together to shake hands and talk about our ancient past, put any ill will behind us and together (as some are trying to do in the north now) also come together to form a peaceful celebration of our complete history.

We can show the world that for all that we have been though, we as a modern nation and as a people of different sides and thought, can still come together in understanding of the others position, shake hands, create peaceful festivals which to the rest of the world can only portray us in good stead.

There is the minority scumbag element in both sides. They are doing what they are doing I feel primarily for their own twisted, out of date reasons. The world can see them for what they really now are. Stuff the rioters. My children and I got a future to live. We chose to live our future - not live in the past! We can remember our past, all sides can - but that don't mean it also decides our future.

We do that alone by our actions and I and my children are opting for the peaceful route.
It will bare us better fruit!

Hagar

Deleted User wrote: »

How many arrests do you envisage at the next Corpus Christi procession through your town as they goad the "Proddies" by marching up and down main streets?

Two points

1) CC processions would be entirely a religious affair not political

2) When was the last CC procession up the Shankhill?


We have no CC marches where I live. They went out with the Indians.

hedgeh0g

Why did the chicken cross the road?
Becuase his father did, and his fathers father, and his fathers father father :rolleyes:

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

1) CC processions would be entirely a religious affair not political

So you think triumphalism is fine as long as it's grounded in religion only?

Hagar wrote: »

2) When was the last CC procession up the Shankhill?

Ah you know the Catholic Church on this island. Famed for its respect and toleration!

I'm not sure about getting too bogged down in the analogy. I still say there is a difference between triumphalism, which one can ignore, and criminality like throwing bricks, which may be more difficult to ignore if they are raining down. And I'm not even sure that marching per se merits that response, the Corpus Christi procession is not an exact comparison.

hedgeh0g

hedgeh0g wrote: »

Why did the chicken cross the road?
Becuase his father did, and his fathers father, and his fathers father father :rolleyes:

And why would people throw petrol bombs at the chicken for such outrageous and provocative road crossing?

Hagar

There's nothing wrong with celebrating a culture and tradition. I've only ever attended one Orange March on the Shankhill. It was a great spectacle as a tourist. There was a great party atmosphere. There were refreshments being served to anybody and everybody. The kids were involved there was music and general good craic. But this was all in their own neighbourhood were there were like minded people.

I just can't see the sense or need to then take the banners and flags and parade the through neighbourhoods who didn't share the heritage or want to have any part in the event. Typically it caused trouble, typically, the RUC as they were, a totally sectarian force at the time, waded into the protestors and basically helped enforce this "other" culture on them.

Madness utter madness.

March in your own neighbourhoods, enjoy it, it's a great day out, just let people who don't share the same culture live in peace in their neighbourhoods.

Is that too much to ask?

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

I just can't see the sense or need to then take the banners and flags and parade the through neighbourhoods who didn't share the heritage or want to have any part in the event.
...
March in your own neighbourhoods, enjoy it, it's a great day out, just let people who don't share the same culture live in peace in their neighbourhoods.

I agree. It does seem like nonsense, there is a big 'why would you bother' question the Orange Order really can't answer logically, only bleat about traditions and the like. But still think ignoring it is a much better response than hurling petrol bombs.

Biggins

Hagar wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with celebrating a culture and tradition. I've only ever attended one Orange March on the Shankhill. It was a great spectacle as a tourist. There was a great party atmosphere. There were refreshments being served to anybody and everybody. The kids were involved there was music and general good craic. But this was all in their own neighbourhood were there were like minded people.

I just can't see the sense or need to then take the banners and flags and parade the through neighbourhoods who didn't share the heritage or want to have any part in the event. Typically it caused trouble, typically, the RUC as they were, a totally sectarian force at the time, waded into the protestors and basically helped enforce this "other" culture on them.

Madness utter madness.

March in your own neighbourhoods, enjoy it, it's a great day out, just let people who don't share the same culture live in peace in their neighbourhoods.

Is that to much to ask?

You make a good point.

Both sides in the early stages of trying to bridge the divides, should literally chose "common ground".
In other words, if there is markets and stalls exhibitioning their cultures, history etc, they should display, play and speak of such things in a town/city central location to their community. Accessed by all on neutral ground.
Given time, education and further understanding I'm sure the better minded will eventually invite those from another way of life, to further enter their individual communities and tell/portray another side to a neighbouring community that more often than not, is unseen as much.

I for one wouldn't mind someone (at my invitation which I would have no problem issuing) from the Orange order coming to me and explaining a bit about their ancient history. Whats past is just that, the past.
Its time to move on.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

Biggins

Scien wrote: »

It's easy to say that though, as someone that has lived in a peaceful Country, assuming you've lived in Ireland all your life.

The NI Tourist Board should write off this 'Orangefest' as an unfortunate misjudgment of progress.
There isn't Peace in the North, only a cessation of violence & hostilities.

Yes, its easy to say it. However I live amid a community that has it strong traditions and guess what, I still am choosing a peaceful route to getting things sorted. Those that don't like that, tuff.

The NI T.B. can spin it anyway they want. Those with half a brain will see it for what it is.
* A bunch of "living in the past a-holes" wishing to drag down with them, the rest of the community. Well the communities is choosing to live in peace, wants the scumbags to go get stuffed and sod off.

As for "There isn't Peace in the North, only a cessation of violence & hostilities." - that might be your view, to others peace has broken out only to be occasionally interceded by the wasteful, idiotic, moronic useless violent actions of scumbags. Those wishing to live in the past will obviously spin it any way they can to justify their stupid actions. Only to be expected by idiots who will always get nowhere in the long run.
A brick through someones window or a burned out car/bus never solved any problems, only created more.

Guess what, some of us have decided to use our brains instead of our fists!

Fr Tod Umptious

blackgold>> wrote: »

Probably only want their country back.

they would not known their country if it came up a bit them in the ass.

An orchestrated excuse to throw stuff at cops, that's all the was

FlutterinBantam

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

they would not known their country if it came up a bit them in the ass.

An orchestrated excuse to throw stuff at cops, that's all the was

I think Tod you will find I came to that conclusion about 30 posts ago;)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61130699&postcount=8

Bunch of scummers looking for a bit of diversion, egged on by the "hardmen" who would fight and die to claim the dole from the ROI rather than the Queen(or both if they could get away with it):rolleyes:

get real lads.

turgon

Perhaps Derek Mahon said it best;

"this is your country, close one eye and be king."

For some people up there, they will never open both eyes, and never " feel called upon to understand and forgive but only to speak with a bleak afflatus". As biggins said they are only a minority and we are all the worse from even thinking of them; them criminals that would have themselves in the guise of freedom fighters.



Quotes from the poem Ecclesiastes, btw.

LordSutch

Biggins wrote: »

We can show the world that for all that we have been though, we as a modern nation and as a people of different sides and thought, can still come together in understanding of the others position, shake hands, create peaceful festivals which to the rest of the world can only portray us in good stead.

Very good post that #23, but one thing stands out is the, "we as a modern nation and as a people of different sides and thought, can still come together in understanding of the others position" which I agree is also a very admirable & appealing aspiration, but surely Unionism by its very nature, is not of this nation, nor does it wish to be ...........

Just a thought.

RiverWilde

It seems to me that there is a residual section of NI society that just can't handle the notion of a peaceful prosperous province. It reminds me of the quote from Batman that some men just like to see the world burn.

Riv

FlutterinBantam

RiverWilde wrote: »

It seems to me that there is a residual section of NI society that just can't handle the notion of a peaceful prosperous province. It reminds me of the quote from Batman that some men just like to see the world burn.

Riv

And did you ever ask yourself why??

Well I'll tell you, because in a peaceful NI these people have no place.Uneducated,unemployable,totally dependent of the state like their forefathers before them,they see their wheeling and dealing in the black economy compromised by law and order and of course it's in their interest to ferment as much unrest as possible to keep the police stretched while the oil tankers swing over the border late at night.


Let's talk some sense folks,these people are no more freedom fighters than Doran's ass

Rb

It's merely scumbags being scumbags because...well...they've very little else going on in their lives. They leap at such an opportunity and such a worthy cause it is too :rolleyes:

The same lowlife, bottom dwelling poster boys for abortion came out in force when they had the parade here, as we all know. Any excuse really.

It's unfortunate because the peaceful Catholics up north seem to have learned to turn the other cheek, yet amongst them lies a minority who'll not only not turn the other cheek, but go out and throw petrol bombs at the police.

And yet...the state still pays their way.

conchubhar1

Deleted User wrote: »

When did maintaining a tradition become a defence to criminal acts?

There's a lot of people in this part of the world who celebrate the birth, and mark the crucifixion, of a prophet 2000 years ago. Would it be right and proper to throw petrol bombs and stones to stop such triumphalism as the crowds exit mass next 25th December?

if they march though israel - they might get that reaction yes

they march looking for trouble - that march is there to cause trouble

conchubhar1

djpbarry wrote: »

Here's hoping that someday, in the not too distant future, the Orange lads and the dissident republican lads will realise they are from the same country.

yes - i hope they get a vote on that in the future then this would be a reality

upthedub

conchubhar1 wrote: »

if they march though israel - they might get that reaction yes

they march looking for trouble - that march is there to cause trouble

Exactly.

How can it be right to allow this "march":rolleyes:go on through catholic areas knowing that this is and ALWAYS causes trouble.Why dont they just go to the uk or something with it???;)

conchubhar1

Deleted User wrote: »

And why would people throw petrol bombs at the chicken for such outrageous and provocative road crossing?

because it celebrated an outdated, bigoted and wrong acts of the past

conchubhar1

upthedub wrote: »

Exactly.

How can it be right to allow this "march":rolleyes:go on through catholic areas knowing that this is and ALWAYS causes trouble.Why dont they just go to the uk or something with it???;)

no - they can march where they are wanted to march and wont cause trouble

---

the same things said here about this being an excuse to be ''scumbags'' was what is said many times before

people will not sit back when provaked - and yes it is provaked - people all know which area would welcome the marchers and which would not

upthedub

conchubhar1 wrote: »

no - they can march where they are wanted to march and wont cause trouble

They are NOT wanted to march in ardoyne or any other places as that was seen on tv as they are just causing trouble as always.

It should not be allowed!

djpbarry

conchubhar1 wrote: »

yes - i hope they get a vote on that in the future then this would be a reality

I'm not sure what you mean?

conchubhar1

someone stated they both live in the same country - which is technicaly true

my point is in a few years when a referendum is held on irish unification this will become a reality (island of ireland - ironically eneough is ireland/irish - no matter if it was split 88 years ago, with an artificial majority in certain areas)

GuanYin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

All depends on from where you are standing friend.

Or maybe which was you're facing.

Hagar wrote: »

Isn't "incitement to commit violence" a crime in the North? "Let's go down and goad the Paddys"

How else would a sane person describe those marches?

Two wrongs and all that. Hagar.... just to be clear, you're not justifying the violence, because that would be against the charter and I don't want to go down this road again. /mod friendly warning.

This happens every year, I don't understand how, at this stage, the Police haven't identified the ringleaders and acted. Northern Ireland is under UK rule and if the UK can jail a woman for being too loud during sex because she had an anti social behavior order, I'm not sure why they can't also view the parties on either side of this debacle as "anti social".

conchubhar1

the ringleaders would not act in this way if:

they didnt have to see bigots marching down an area which they know they are enciting reaction in by marching there

GuanYin

conchubhar1 wrote: »

the ringleaders would not act in this way if:

they didnt have to see bigots marching down an area which they know they are enciting reaction in by marching there

There are many ways to protest. Plenty of effective peaceful ways to do so. Their way is the wrong way. They're criminals and they deserve no sympathy or leniency. Quite frankly, everyone who lifted even a pebble should get a criminal sentence.

djpbarry

conchubhar1 wrote: »

someone stated they both live in the same country...

They do - it's called the UK. That someone was me.