Pro just dont listen

xgtdec

Howdy Lads

Slight moan of a post but hopefully end up really positive, i went to my local pro 12 months ago playing off 26 and basically told him that i wanted to start from the very start and build a good swing, get rid of bad habits etc, well 1 year down the line and 8 lessons later.......im now off 27:mad:

Still scoring 90 up wards and getting real angry. From the lessons i actually do have a decent grip and swing, but i seem to hit 90 - 100 shots a round but none of them are put down, i mean before lessons i would hit 3 ft in front of me, i dont do that anymore but the scores remain the same, in practice i am comfortable with 9i and PW but when i get to a 7i one is great 2 are bad 1 is ok, i guess the problem is consistency and confidence and i have told the pro this but i get the feeling that i am another easy 40 quid for 20 mins of instruction that in theory sounds great but its just not coming together. Is there such a thing as a bad PGA pro, do i need to change pro, has anyone been in the same situation and come through it, my kit is callaway big bertha 2008 4-sw, vokey 60 wedge, wilson smooth driver 10.5, odyssey crimson putter, any help is so very much appreciated

A Frustrated "golfer"

DU.LLAHAN

how often do u practice or play?

xgtdec

when i practice its generally wednesday and saturday for 2-3 hours sticking to 9i and wedge and some putting. i'm lucky that my club has a grass range so no mats for me, then i play sunday and do a good hours warm up beforehand, but the pro doesnt give me set drills or anything like that even though ive asked, as in go there put hands here make sure hips do this etc. so even though i have a decent grip and swing practice is very inconsistent ball after ball kinda thing!

jimmystars

Id say change your pro if your not happy. Sounds like your putting in a nice bit of practice so should expect to see some improvement.
Do you play with better players often as i found that a massive help to me as you tend pick up lots of good pre shot routines and habits. That definetly helped me with consistency.

conno16

ditch him
if ur asking for drills and he doesn't know what ur talking about sounds like he may not be qualified sufficiently
ask him to show you his certs / qualifications
to be still playing at 25+ after one full here is not on, particularly when you consider the type of commitment you have given to the game

xgtdec

yeah i actually play with some real good players, but the trouble is they are real good with their own setup and swing, like they never got a lesson and they dont swing the way a pro would teach you, they would be really good self taught golfers, besides im always obsessed with what the heck im trying to achieve for the next shot to be lookin at the gits taking €2-2-2 off me...some day i'll be taking the cash, just gonna see what the boardies come up with!!

jimmystars

Im saying study the way they approach the ball and set up exactly the same for each shot. If you have the same way of approaching the shot every time it will improve your consistensy. It is a way of getting your mind into automatic when you approach a ball and should help you stop obsessing about every shot. You should be trying to relax over the ball and not worry about your swing. Find your own routine that your comfortable with or ask your pro to give you one and make him earn his 40 bucks.

stockdam

jimmystars wrote: »

Im saying study the way they approach the ball and set up exactly the same for each shot. If you have the same way of approaching the shot every time it will improve your consistensy. It is a way of getting your mind into automatic when you approach a ball and should help you stop obsessing about every shot. You should be trying to relax over the ball and not worry about your swing. Find your own routine that your comfortable with or ask your pro to give you one and make him earn his 40 bucks.

Pretty good advice. The difference between me when I'm playing poorly and when I'm playing well is often a tiny thing like my setup routine.

When I'm playing badly I tend to take a practice swing, plonk myself down and quickly lash at the ball.

When I'm playing well I "remember" to line up correctly and take about five more seconds to visualise my target and ball flight and then I just let go and swing. To be honest it sounds trivial but in that extra 5 seconds I seem to do an unconscious check to make sure I'm really ready. It seems to relax me and to start the swing in the same way each time. It seems to give me the confidence that I have chosen the right shot and that I can make it. Hard to explain but the difference can be huge.

xgtdec

Yeah i see where this is going, a pre shot routine.......

Thats sounds like a plan, but i think i have it in my head that a change of pro would be a good start, but i actually feel guilty about changing, i kinda saw it as a partnership, a team if you will that would get me the results i wanted, but it aint worked out so i guess i should push on, do people change pro's often? I'm in tallaght and i know that Martin Toner comes with a good reputation for both swing and the mental side of things, anyone ever been to him?

Par72

You shouldn't feel guilt about changing pros. People do it all the time. If you didn't feel you were getting the best from your hairdresser or dentist you wouldn't have any problem changing. It should be the same for your golf pro.

xgtdec

Good Logic!!

Screed

I'd start by breaking down your round. Putts, chips, fairways hit etc, I bet your putting is costing you. If you can remember the last round or on the next round count your putts (1 inch off green do not count) must be on the green to count. Bet its over 36 and closer to 40. If you can 2 putt all greens then your on a winner an immediate 4 strokes of hcp. You say you do most practice with 9i or pw. Decide what your favorite distance from the green is or a club you like hitting into greens it maybe say 100y 9i or 7i 150y then on the tee subtract this distance at hit a club that suit the remainder. In others words drive to your preferred distance from a green.

xgtdec

Breaking down the round seems a good idea and could pinpoint a few things all right, and getting into a position where you can hit your fav club is good but a lot of the trouble is that the pw 9i is good in practice, out on course its as liable as any other club to let me down!!

GreeBo

Drop your driver, 4,5 iron and LW and get a 5W.

There is no reason in the world why someone having trouble getting a least a triple bogey on every hole needs a driver or a LW. If you are no longer chunking every second shot then you are hitting them into worse trouble than you started in, this is because you dont have any course management.

Describe a couple of holes for us if you can remember how you played on them and what shots/clubs you hit.

Play a round with only your 5W, 7,9,PW and putter and see what score you have. If often amazed myself with my scored using only 3 clubs.

alxmorgan

Well if TinCup was an accurate film (and I believe everything I see in movies ) then you should be able to play a good round using nothing other than a 7 iron !!

No seriously GreeBo is right and has given me similar advice elsewhere.
I didn't even have a driver for the first while I played.
And if you can't hit a good shot with a club then the driving range is the place to practice.

I'd say forget the clubs you can hit and practice with the ones you can't on the range.

A tip someone gave me once was to take a club I am confident hitting - 7 iron for example and hit a few balls.
Now take out a club you're not as confident with - say a 4 or 5 and hit the ball, pretending you still have the 7 in your hand.
It worked. I think the main reason was mental as as soon as I'd pick up the club I wasn't confident with I got all tense which of course made the chances of a good shot even more remote.

Give it a try and see how it goes for you.

xgtdec

Will do, next round is sunday, possibly sat morning, ill keep track and see what i come out with, will have to buy a 5 wood though, never had a 3 or 5 wood, always deemed them to hard to hit off the floor, now off a tee may be a different game!!!!

GreeBo

xgtdec wrote: »

always deemed them to hard to hit off the floor

:eek:
Why on earth would you be trying to hit them off the deck? You are off 27, there is never, EVER a reason for you to try this. 99/100 you will hit it somewhere that will end up costing you more shots than two 7i's would have.


You can probably play 17 of the holes on your course without any woods, just a 5/6i (unless you have some that have a huge carry over water or something?)


I reckon you need to book a playing lesson with a pro and you will shave off 5 shots per round easy.

who_ru

i rarely if ever hit driver off the tee, i always go with 3 wood because i'm comfortable with it. i remember one particular round where i had to hit 5 wood off the tee because i wasn't hitting the 3 well that day, on 1 or 2 occasions i was within 20 yards of the guys hitting driver(although they didn't hit it great). :pac:

the game is all about chipping and putting, everything is won and lost on the green.

xgtdec

I can fully agree the game is won and lost on chipping and putting, but when your trouble is getting there in the first place its a bit tougher, but i do have my notepad ready for sunday, full stats should follow

GreeBo

So, what did u learn from your last round?

xgtdec

well in total i scored 95 so minus 27 thats a 68, i found that i lost 12 shots playing 3 off the tee and most of the rest were lost on the scoring game of 100 and in. i have ditched my pro and sighed up with a coach who fits the bill of setting targets and drills and i had a really good conversation with him monday night for an hour. Im actually happy with everything he has given me and im actually looking forward now that i have some perspective instead of just concentratin on swing mechanics. I'll update as we go!!!!:D

kingshankly

Maybe your not meant to be a golfer

JCDUB

kingshankly wrote: »

Maybe your not meant to be a golfer

Everybody who enjoys a game of golf is meant to be a golfer.

xgt, sounds like there was a good improvement in your last round, keep it up and develop a relationship with your new pro and you'll definitely see results.

I do think you'll need more than 8 lessons in a year though, not frequent enough IMO.

One more piece of advice, given by me and many others on here regularly, but the best you will get:

ROUTINE, ROUTINE, ROUTINE.

GreeBo

xgtdec wrote: »

well in total i scored 95 so minus 27 thats a 68, i found that i lost 12 shots playing 3 off the tee and most of the rest were lost on the scoring game of 100 and in. i have ditched my pro and sighed up with a coach who fits the bill of setting targets and drills and i had a really good conversation with him monday night for an hour. Im actually happy with everything he has given me and im actually looking forward now that i have some perspective instead of just concentratin on swing mechanics. I'll update as we go!!!!:D

well thats a good bit better than last time.
So you "lost" 6 balls off the tee, probably you dont need to hit driver on these holes and an iron or 5wood will be less risky.

Also, how many putts did u take?
You should be taking no more than 33 putts (unless you are hitting every green in regulation!)

alxmorgan

GreeBo wrote: »

well thats a good bit better than last time.
So you "lost" 6 balls off the tee, probably you dont need to hit driver on these holes and an iron or 5wood will be less risky.

Also, how many putts did u take?
You should be taking no more than 33 putts (unless you are hitting every green in regulation!)

Why 33 GreeBo ?
I mean I'd always be happy two-putting on every green so 36 would be my minimum aim - just wondering how the 33 is worked out.

GreeBo

You should only really be 2 putting every green if you are on every green in regulation, thus 2 putts for a par.
Most of the time you are going to miss the green and so have a pitch, chip, etc.

I reckon that at the very least you should get this close enough that so that you hole the next putt 1/6 times?
If you are taking more putts than this it might not be you putting thats at fault (assuming you are not having loads of 3 putts) it could be that you are leaving yourself too much to do each time and so need to work on your pitching, chipping, etc.

alxmorgan

Good point.
Must start taking stats on my rounds to see where I'm losing shots.
Fairways, Greens in reg, putts - any other stats that are useful ?

kingshankly

short game is where you can make up your shots.
mate of mine started playing a year ago and has struggled but is gradually getting better,starting to hit a big ball,but his best score is 110.
last week we took another mate out who never played the game before but was a regular pitch and putter,struggled of the tee but saved some amount of strokes around the green on his way to shooting 108.
needless to say my other mate wasnt too happy after his year of playing,and going to the driving range,to be beaten.
just shows that you can limit a lot of damage with a good short game.

alxmorgan

I know this is gonna sound like a stupid question but what exactly is a good short game.
I mean how would you define it ?
Also how short is short ? 100 yards in ? 50 yards in ? Less ?

GreeBo

They are the 3 stats that I record for every round.

To me short game is anything thats not taken with a full swing, i.e you are looking for accuracy rather than distance (or rather, you are looking for a specific distance, not the longest!)


The closer you get to the hole the more accurate you need to be, thats why par 3's are usually harder than par 4s and par5s are the easiest. In a one off you might score better on the par3 but long term bad shots on a par 3 are harder to make up.


Think of it this way, you can be 25% off on your drives and still be ok; if you are 25% off on your putting you will never get off the first green!

G1032

alxmorgan wrote: »

I know this is gonna sound like a stupid question but what exactly is a good short game.
I mean how would you define it ?
Also how short is short ? 100 yards in ? 50 yards in ? Less ?

Pitching it close from 100 yds and inwards. Chipping and putting from the surrounds of the green 70 - 75% of the time . Getting close with your greenside bunker shots. Holing all (or nearly all ) of your putts from 4 foot and closer. Not 3 putting.
That is where you need to be at IMO.
Thought I had a fairly good short game and was reasonably happy with it until I played Barton Shield a few weeks ago and saw how it is really done. Came away from it realising how far behind the scr and 1 handicappers I actually am. And my long game was just as good as theirs.

alxmorgan

ronaldochokes wrote: »

Pitching it close from 100 yds and inwards. Chipping and putting from the surrounds of the green 70 - 75% of the time . Getting close with your greenside bunker shots. Holing all (or nearly all ) of your putts from 4 foot and closer. Not 3 putting.
That is where you need to be at IMO.
Thought I had a fairly good short game and was reasonably happy with it until I played Barton Shield a few weeks ago and saw how it is really done. Came away from it realising how far behind the scr and 1 handicappers I actually am. And my long game was just as good as theirs.

So what was the main difference that you saw between them and you - putting, chipping it real close, pitching it to within 10 ?

G1032

They never, not once, missed from 6 foot and in. We did!! Most of the time they chipped it dead from the side of the green where as we were only doing this half of the time. The couple of times they didn't, they holed the 10 foot putts anyway. They never 3 putted. Sure, they hit a couple of poor putts from 25-30 foot but holed the second one. Their pitching from 60-80 yards was just totally unreal. Where I would always get par from 80-100 yds away, these guys always gave themselves very makeable birdie putts. I suppose their ability to recover from a poor shot around the green was very impressive also.

Screed

For those interested in stats you can keep a track of your own using software from the site below. I have been using it for years and it turns out that I drive it worst than my handicap suggests. You can download a free trial but must purchase software to continue.
http://www.scoresaver.co.uk/

G1032

Screed wrote: »

For those interested in stats you can keep a track of your own using software from the site below. I have been using it for years and it turns out that I drive it worst than my handicap suggests. You can download a free trial but must purchase software to continue.
http://www.scoresaver.co.uk/

Have my own spreadsheet done out for the last 2 years. Highly recommend keeping a track of your stats

xgtdec

Well given the 2 very simple drills i got last monday i have being doing them all week for the 20 minutes suggested, and i have to say that one major thing i notice is that already my balance is much better, i dont wobble or fall of on the last 30% of the follow through, i actually finish my swing in one balanced solid position......positivly cant wait to get out on sunday...but not expecting anything major just sticking to the plan and implementing the drills on the course.

PeterJamesDoyle

Do you feel that you have a fairly good swing? If so, I find that working on ball position and alignment help me if my game is a little out of sync.

Golf is like every other game involving hand eye co-ordination, so if you're pointing the right way, and ball is where it should be in your stance, you won't be a mile out at the moment of contact.

Some pro's are cat like that. You're just income for them. I think its very Irish of them as there ego's are so big, they'd hate to see anyone become good at the game. Begrudgery. A good teacher is a rare commodity.

Finally, do you have a mate who is a low handicap golfer? You can learn a lot from them, just by watching their game, strategy and set up routines.

golfbgud

kingshankly wrote: »

Maybe your not meant to be a golfer

That's a bit harsh!

I played with several 18 handicappers who were worse than I was (20+) and it was their ego that kept them off 18 (couldn't bear to tell anyone that they were greater than 18 and avoided club comps so that the handicap wouldn't change).

Golf is for everyone that wants to try and play and as long as they are enjoying it and playing by the rules with no slow play etc then happy days! Go for it!

clickhere

Golf is for everyone that wants to try and play and as long as they are enjoying it and playing by the rules with no slow play etc then happy days! Go for it! Well said.

xgtdec

Nightmare yesterday....kept the head down, swept the grass and finished still looking at the tee. Only differance is now i cant see the ball heading for s**t

Ground was very soggy and i seemed to catch the ball very early in the sweep resulting in a lot of duffed shots, took notes on a spare card for the coach to look at tonight....but trying to stay optamistic after a bad round is a tough number....i imagine its worth it in the end

Ichiro

Xgt where are you playing and where is your pro?

Im in the same boat as yourself, I honestly believe I can play better golf but at present I am playing off 25 for the last 6 months (started off 24) But I've being playing about 3 times a week (summer time) before then only twice a week, I try the range once a week, but feel I'm getting worse!
And this drives me nuts!
I've been told to take a small break from the game which I'll do this week I reckon!

I've just read Bob Rotella's 'The Golf of your Dreams' where he puts a large emphasis on the reletionship a golfer has with their pro, and know I have come to the belief that he is right, that goals etc etc should be set.
(This may not be needed by all golfers)

But I honestly now feel I would love to at least lower my handicap to 24/23 in the closing month of the season, in a way this would single some steps of progress, where I am no longer hitting in the high 90's!

I have gone for a few lessons but the pro has his mind elsewhere so I think its time to move on and progress!

any thoughts would greatly be appreciated!

xgtdec

now far be it from me a 27 handicapper to sole out any sort of advise but i found that i went to a pro and he gave me grip swing etc and nothing improved, now i go to a coach and he seems 100% more interested in me and my game then the pro ever did which in turn boosts my confidence, now granted i have not seen the benefit of this yet but i feel like i have goalls and direction in my game rather than just working on the mechanicas of the swing..so maybe look at a coach rather than a pro?

This is the guy i go to
http://www.martintonergolf.com/dynamicdata/default.asp

And so far i have found him very good!

G1032

xgtdec wrote: »

now far be it from me a 27 handicapper to sole out any sort of advise but i found that i went to a pro and he gave me grip swing etc and nothing improved, now i go to a coach and he seems 100% more interested in me and my game then the pro ever did which in turn boosts my confidence, now granted i have not seen the benefit of this yet but i feel like i have goalls and direction in my game rather than just working on the mechanicas of the swing..so maybe look at a coach rather than a pro?

This is the guy i go to
http://www.martintonergolf.com/dynamicdata/default.asp

And so far i have found him very good!

Had a quick look at that site. Look at the individual lesson price plan. http://www.martintonergolf.com/dynamicdata/IndividualGolfLessons_details.asp

He states he uses 'Muscle Memory Technique'. There is no such thing as muscle memory technique. Your muscles do not remember the last good swing you had and repeat it. I wouldn't be overly confident about improving my golf after going to this guy. Look also at the testimonials page. I don't see any 5/6 handicappers getting down to 2/3 after the 'Muscle Memory' lessons
I understand xgtdec that you find him helpful, but I could never get tuition from a guy who believes in Muscle Memory Technique.

alxmorgan

Well muscle memory is what you effectively use to learn to play guitar so in theory it could work for golf.
It would require you to swing over and over in the correct fashion though which seems much harder than the guitar.
But I'm wondering if like in guitar where you start off with 2-3 easy chords he starts by working on sections of the swing until they are right and then builds up to the full one ?

GreeBo

alxmorgan wrote: »

Well muscle memory is what you effectively use to learn to play guitar so in theory it could work for golf.
It would require you to swing over and over in the correct fashion though which seems much harder than the guitar.
But I'm wondering if like in guitar where you start off with 2-3 easy chords he starts by working on sections of the swing until they are right and then builds up to the full one ?

The point is that your muscles cant remember squat.
Your brain and CNS are what control your muscles, train your brain to remember not your muscles.

Patrick_K

Think you're being a bit harsh here lads by ruling out a guy because he uses 'Muscle Memory Technique'.

If you think about it all golf (and other sports) coaching uses the same methodology. You teach your body to put the club/racquet/hurl into a certain position and then hit the ball, no matter what you call this it's the same idea really.
You need to be able to remember and sense when the club is at the top of your backswing - call it muscle memory, 'a feeling', kinesthetic awareness or whatever you like but its really all the same.

BTW - muscles do actually have the ability to remeber when they are being stretched or contracted to or past a point which they dont like - thats how they converse with the brain. I dont think we need to get into that here though ! ;-)

Just my 2 cents .....
PK

xgtdec

Well ive been to 2 seessions so far and i aint done anything on muscle memory, ive just being concentrating on sweep and look for tee and also correct breathing and pre shot routine. Next week will be on the range so interesting to see what happens out there!!

gerp

To say that muscle memory is not important is just stupid if that is the case why do you see tour players practicing diffferent movements and positions on the practice fairways.

All low handicappers have a position on there minds that they want to get the club into.

G1032

gerp wrote: »

To say that muscle memory is not important is just stupid if that is the case why do you see tour players practicing diffferent movements and positions on the practice fairways.

All low handicappers have a position on there minds that they want to get the club into.

Your brain remembers what you do/did, not your muscles. Thats all i'm saying. Muscles don't remember anything

xgtdec

Well here we are back again and when i last posted i was giving out about my pro and i had taken on a new coach to see if i could get some results, well before i go on let me just say that that i liked playing golf, i enjoyed my game and the craic and all that goes with it, but now i am on the verge of hating the sport thanks to my new golf coach 3 half hour lessons of sweep the grass and look for the tee, sweep and tee, sweep and tee, well i am fed the **** up with sweep and tee, i now can not hit anything at all out of my way and woods off the tee are now a source of suicidal misery only alliviated by the facr that in anger ill walk after nine thinking that golf coach's are full of **** and help 1 in 10 with their sweep and tee crap, my game is gone and worse yet i dont really want to go back, pointless to post here i hear ya say but i just wanted to put up what happens at the other end of the golfing scale, pro's and coach's feel free to jump in and save me!!!!!

GreeBo

Did the pro give any indication as to what he was trying to fix?
As a 27 handicap you are quite likely to get worse before you get better. Obviously you have swing flaws and changing these is going to feel terribly awkward (if it doesnt then you arent changing anything)

I would go back to the Pro and ask why is he teaching you sweep and tee..what movement is he trying to correct. If you know why you are doing something you will be able to see if you are actually improving or not.