Is it normal for cyclists to make their own rules?

Piste

Maybe I'm just being a newbie square, but having started cycling I'm amazed at how most cyclists seem to completely ignore the rules of the road. I pedal along like a good little cyclist and stop at traffic lights with my helmet securely fastened and about 10 cyclists whizz past me, totally bare-headed. As a pedestrian I always hated when cyclists broke lights and gave me filthy looks for trying to cross the road even when I have a green light. Is this normal behaviour or am I just a complete square noob for obeying the rules of the road?

Having cycled around dublin city over the past few days I've realised why people break lights, it can be hard to get back up to speed after being stopped and waiting at lights often takes up most of my journey.

niceonetom

Yes.

DirkVoodoo

You are right to obey lights, I do for the most part (this one time, going over the bridge and taking the right toward the IFSC, the ped light was green but not a soul in sight, so I thought "it's safer to go now rather than with the cars, cuz the cycle lane is two lanes over). As for helmets, please don't start another helmet debate. They are not a legal requirement. Frowning for breaking lights is fine, it's illegal. Frowning for not wearing helmets is also fine, as long as you keep it to yourself.

Breaking lights and not wearing lights, bad.

TheBandit

What are these traffic light thingies your talking about?

Chips Lovell

Yes, it's normal. Most cyclists either don't know or ignore road traffic law.

But helmets aren't mandatory.

Piste

Noo I had a longish post written out but accidently went back a page

I know that helmets aren't mandatory, just recommended by the rules of the road. It doesn't bother me that people don't wear helmets, not to sound cold but it's not really my concern if a complete stranger dashes their brains out on the road! The only person I nag to wear a helmet is my boyfriend as I obviously have a vested interest in his safety. I just find it a bit odd that some people don't wear helmets. Is it a real bone of contention on this forum? I can't see why it would be, if strangers want to disregard their safety then let them at it.

What really bugs me thought is cyclists breaking lights. When I walked to school I was almost hurt a few times by rebellious cyclists ignoring lights.

CDfm

Its perfectly normal. I had a cylclist in dark clothing cross in front of me with no lights/refective clothing last night.

Its accepted as there is no enforcement.

monument

Is there any chance the admins would censor 'helmet' just as they do with **** and **** etc?

adrian522

Yeah but motorists ignore orange and the first 5 seconds of red and pedestrians will cross anywhere anytime if they think they can make it across and never wait for green....don't single out cyclists...

**Timbuk2**

But if we turn on all the lights we don't feel like ninjas anymore

daymobrew

Piste wrote: »

The only person I nag to wear a helmet is my boyfriend as I obviously have a vested interest in his safety. I just find it a bit odd that some people don't wear helmets. Is it a real bone of contention on this forum? I can't see why it would be, if strangers want to disregard their safety then let them at it.

It is a bone of contention because some who favour helmets mistakenly believe that they make cyclists immortal. They don't.
While I wear a helmet, I take steps to avoid ever having to need it. This is the aspect that I would highlight to your boyfriend.

Piste wrote: »

What really bugs me thought is cyclists breaking lights. When I walked to school I was almost hurt a few times by rebellious cyclists ignoring lights.

This is an sentiment that most/all of us here agree on - breaking lights is bad and only serves to increase resentment against cyclists, even those that don't break the lights.

Beasty

I appreciate the desire not to start a further helmet debate, but this is my first opportunity to express my own views on this topic, having spent 3 days in hospital last week, following a crash where my head took the full force of impact with the tarmac.

I was wearing a helmet that almost certainly saved me from a fractured skull, and quite possibly something much more serious. I would therefore encourage all cyclists to wear a helmet (and I know of some people who, having seen my injuries, have gone straight out to buy one), if only to reduce the risk of serious injury in the event of an accident.

CDfm

Beasty maybe you should post your injuries.

Chips Lovell

CDfm wrote: »

Beasty maybe you should post your injuries.

Don't. Injury pics are bad karma.

Piste

daymobrew wrote: »

It is a bone of contention because some who favour helmets mistakenly believe that they make cyclists immortal. They don't.
While I wear a helmet, I take steps to avoid ever having to need it. This is the aspect that I would highlight to your boyfriend.

Weird, it's not an attitude that I've ever come across. That said I'm new to the forum and don't know too many cyclists. Everyone I know my age would be pretty shocked if I didn't wear a helmet whereas my dad never wears one. I'm under no illusions that I could easily be killed, even if I wear a helmet, but I suppose wearing the helmet reduces the chances greatly (also cycling painfully slowly and obeying the traffic nights, no matter how long they might delay me)

Chips Lovell

It's one of those things that comes up a lot. More at the Boards Cycling Wiki.

mikemac

I break red lights

But obviously not at busy junctions.
But I would sometimes at pedestrian crossings. You know the ones where the ones where the pedestrian hits and the button and a minute later it still hasn't activated. So the pedestrian crosses the road and I come across a red light and nobody there at all.

It's breaking the ROTR but I'll keep doing it.
As a motorcyclist and well as a cyclist I hope I've enough experience to make that call. Wouldn't break a red right on a motorcycle though

CDfm

el tonto wrote: »

Don't. Injury pics are bad karma.

But a good deterent

Sleipnir

adrian522 wrote: »

Yeah but motorists ignore orange and the first 5 seconds of red and pedestrians will cross anywhere anytime if they think they can make it across and never wait for green....don't single out cyclists...

The amount of motorists who ignore red lights pales in comparison to the number of cyclists who do.
5 seconds my eye, slight exaggeration there. You're almost guaranteed a crash if you go through a red light after 5 seconds.

Beasty

CDfm wrote: »

Beasty maybe you should post your injuries.

No pictures, but I have just had the stitches removed from a skin graft around the corner of my eye. I had another 16 stitches in other head injuries around the eye. The helmet took the main force of the impact, saving me from additional injury in the temple area. I also have a 6 inch graze along my right forearm (which has just stopped oozing today, 10 days after the accident), with other significant grazes to both shoulders the other forearm and knee.

Although I understand I was conscious throughout, I was concussed, and cannot remember anything from around an hour or so before the accident until undergoing a CAT scan at the Beaumont a couple of hours after.

Most of my injuries are upper body, and the only material damage to the bike is on the handlebars. I am informed I basically went straight over the bars, landing on my head.

cyclopath2001

Piste wrote: »

I'm amazed at how most cyclists seem to completely ignore the rules of the road. .

It's odd that you're so amazed. Motorists break the rules all the time. Not indicating, speeding, failing to stop for amber lights, footpath parking, illegal overtaking, using a handphone and much more.

Have you not noticed this too?

Chips Lovell

The proportion of cyclist breaking the rules of the road is far higher. It's rare enough for example to see a car break the lights, but sometimes I've gone to work and not met a single other cyclist who stopped on red.

Piste

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's odd that you're so amazed. Motorists break the rules all the time. Not indicating, speeding, failing to stop for amber lights, footpath parking, illegal overtaking, using a handphone and much more.

Have you not noticed this too?

Not as much, no. I suppose as a pedestrian I'd only notice cars when I'm crossing the road, whereas when cycling I have to be constantly aware of motorists. I'm a bad judge of speed so I cou'dn't tell if they're speeding, and I wouldn't see into a car well enough to notice someone on a phone. The main thing that I notice about cars is the lack of indicating, I imagine it's even more annoying when having to cycle along with a car too.

CDfm

Beasty wrote: »

No pictures,

Sounds very painful. How did it happen.

I saw a cyclist stopped in town for speeding and running a light a while back.

Beasty

CDfm wrote: »

Sounds very painful. How did it happen.

I started a separate thread with the details:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055610775

Lumen

Piste wrote: »

I'm under no illusions that I could easily be killed, even if I wear a helmet, but I suppose wearing the helmet reduces the chances greatly

I'm not sure what you mean by that, as it seems a bit contradictory. If you could easily be killed whether you are wearing a helmet or not, how can it greatly reduce your chances (of being killed)?

The truth is that a helmet will probably help a bit, in certain types of accident, and on that basis it's hard to argue against wearing one.

But if you think you might have an accident you shouldn't really be riding a bike, because that indicates the sort of lack of confidence (often displayed by female cyclists, interestingly*) which will get you killed.

If you understand the hazards, and ride in such a way to mitigate the risks, then you should never have an accident, and therefore the utility of a helmet is almost zero. In the same way, helmet wearing reduces the risk of injury when driving or drinking, but people don't do that because they feel safe in cars and bars.

I wear a helmet when riding fast in groups, and/or out in the country, because when a sheep jumps out at you or a rider goes down in front of you at 70kph you really need all the help you can get. In traffic I don't, because hitting a car will almost certainly kill me regardless of headwear, and a bare head reminds me (and drivers) of my vulnerability.

Enjoy the bike.

* female cyclists get killed more often by left-turning vehicles, because they tend to lack the confidence to "take the lane" appropriately

Canis Lupus

Beasty wrote: »

The helmet took the main force of the impact, saving me from additional injury in the temple area.

Well.. I prefer to not crash and therefore dont need a helmet.


(jk) least you're alright.

**Timbuk2**

mikemac wrote: »

I break red lights

As Chandler Bing says

"Can... open. Worms... everywhere"

Blazer

CDfm wrote: »

Its perfectly normal. I had a cylclist in dark clothing cross in front of me with no lights/refective clothing last night.

Its accepted as there is no enforcement.

You should have ran him over
Claimed you never saw him etc due to the gob****e not wearing proper clothing.

Húrin

Piste wrote: »

I know that helmets aren't mandatory, just recommended by the rules of the road. It doesn't bother me that people don't wear helmets, not to sound cold but it's not really my concern if a complete stranger dashes their brains out on the road! The only person I nag to wear a helmet is my boyfriend as I obviously have a vested interest in his safety. I just find it a bit odd that some people don't wear helmets. Is it a real bone of contention on this forum? I can't see why it would be, if strangers want to disregard their safety then let them at it.

What really bugs me thought is cyclists breaking lights. When I walked to school I was almost hurt a few times by rebellious cyclists ignoring lights.

You are right to be annoyed at breaking lights and going around invisible in the dark. The law should be enforced against these types. But believe it or not it isn't an established fact that helmets make you safer! Sure wouldn't all pedestrians be safer wearing helmets!

kona

Amatures break lights, If you actually pay attention on your commute you will remember the traffic light sequences.

You just slow down, freewheel(hate that fixies:p) Time your approach then nail it when the lights change.

cyclopath2001

Sleipnir wrote: »

The amount of motorists who ignore red lights pales in comparison to the number of cyclists who do.

But what if amber light offences are included? It always seems to be the case that motorists only mention red-light offences and never mention the more common amber offences.

Front the Irish Times, June 24:
AA survey: 70% of Irish drivers admit speeding
SEVEN OUT of 10 motorists admitted to breaking a speed limit during the last year, according to a survey by AA Ireland.

And that's just the ones who admit to it.

I take it that you accept that there's widespread law-breaking by motorists when it comes to parking, overtaking, indicating and cell-phone offenses.

Beasty

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Well.. I prefer to not crash and therefore dont need a helmet.


(jk) least you're alright.

I prefer not to crash also, but you cannot eliminate all risks. It's the first accident I have ever had on the road, and I have done about 5,000km in the last year or so alone. The only reason I am "alright" is I was wearing a helmet.

Captain Havoc

It's good thing someone brought a can opener!!!!!!!

**Timbuk2**

But what's this here (notice the red light! shocking stuff!) :rolleyes:

monument

Oh, ffs... sorry...

First off, I'm not anti-helmet. I think they may be a good idea of beginners (so would proper cycling training or just reading Cyclecraft, but that's another day's work) and also for sporting type cycling and those who commute in high speeds. My main problem with helmets is State promotion of them while there is only limited and flawed research to back their use and at the same time there is research which say helmets could cause more danger (see below on both points). The reason this is a problem is because:

• It makes cycling appear more dangerous than it is, thus less people cycle, thus cyclists benefit less from the proven safety in numbers factor

• It is a diversion from real safety measures including training cyclists, better training for motorists, making roads safer, lowering speed limits in urban areas etc

Here's a summary of what I've already posted on this thread and elsewhere... there's a lot which goes against the one-size-fits-all idea that cyclists should wear helmets:

• A DCC report found that between 2002-2006 of 11 fatalities in Dublin city "eight of these deaths were of cyclists killed by left-turning lorries. Of the three other fatalities, one involved a vehicle hitting a cyclist when changing lanes, in another a vehicle rear-ended the cyclist while the third was caused by a stolen vehicle driving head on into a cyclist". It is very debatable if a helmet would have been any use with most of these deaths which involved heavy goods vehicles or the other cases.

• "Using estimates suggested in the literature of the health benefits of cycling, accident rates and reductions in cycling, suggest helmets laws are counterproductive in terms of net health. The model serves to focus the bicycle helmet law debate on overall health as function of key parameters: cycle use, accident rates, helmet protection rates, exercise and environmental benefits. Empirical estimates using US data suggests the strictly health impact of a US wide helmet law would cost around \$5 billion per annum. In the UK and The Netherlands the net health costs are estimated to be \$0.4 and \$1.9 billion, respectively." - Evaluating the Health Benefit of Bicycle Helmet Laws, Piet De Jong, Macquarie University - Actuarial Studies.

• "Bicyclists who wear protective helmets are more likely to be struck by passing vehicles, new research suggests... Drivers pass closer when overtaking cyclists wearing helmets than when overtaking bare-headed cyclists, increasing the risk of a collision, the research has found... Dr Walker, who was struck by a bus and a truck in the course of the experiment, spent half the time wearing a cycle helmet and half the time bare-headed. He was wearing the helmet both times he was struck... He found that drivers were as much as twice as likely to get particularly close to the bicycle when he was wearing the helmet". -- from Wearing a helmet puts cyclists at risk, suggests research

• Pro-helmet wearing research (ie that which says all cyclists should wear helmets) is of a very limited type of research, and most note such. Furthermore, all such research I've seen is flawed as it lumps in commuters with higher risk cycling such as racing and extreme sport cycling like mountain biking. It's the same as comparing motor sport or F1 to driving around town - highly flawed.

Piste wrote: »

Weird, it's not an attitude that I've ever come across. That said I'm new to the forum and don't know too many cyclists. Everyone I know my age would be pretty shocked if I didn't wear a helmet whereas my dad never wears one.

All of these are linked. Your non-cycling friends likely think there is a need for a helmet because they likely think cycling is far, far more dangerous than it is.

Piste wrote: »

I'm under no illusions that I could easily be killed, even if I wear a helmet, but I suppose wearing the helmet reduces the chances greatly

That's debatable as above the vast majority of deaths are caused left-turning heavy goods vehicles.

CDfm

Beasty wrote: »

I started a separate thread with the details:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055610775

Sounds very painful and Im glad you are alright

Piste

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by that, as it seems a bit contradictory. If you could easily be killed whether you are wearing a helmet or not, how can it greatly reduce your chances (of being killed)?

The truth is that a helmet will probably help a bit, in certain types of accident, and on that basis it's hard to argue against wearing one.

But if you think you might have an accident you shouldn't really be riding a bike, because that indicates the sort of lack of confidence (often displayed by female cyclists, interestingly*) which will get you killed.

If you understand the hazards, and ride in such a way to mitigate the risks, then you should never have an accident, and therefore the utility of a helmet is almost zero. In the same way, helmet wearing reduces the risk of injury when driving or drinking, but people don't do that because they feel safe in cars and bars.

I wear a helmet when riding fast in groups, and/or out in the country, because when a sheep jumps out at you or a rider goes down in front of you at 70kph you really need all the help you can get. In traffic I don't, because hitting a car will almost certainly kill me regardless of headwear, and a bare head reminds me (and drivers) of my vulnerability.

Enjoy the bike.

* female cyclists get killed more often by left-turning vehicles, because they tend to lack the confidence to "take the lane" appropriately

That's an interesting point, and not something I'd thought of before. By "easily be killed" I mean that if I was hit by a fast-moving vehicle without a helmet it's unlikely I'd survive. It's not that I *think* I'd have an accident, it's just I'm very aware that not everyone is as concerned for my safety as I am, and no matter how vigilant I am there's always the possibility of a driver not watching where they're going and running me over before I've time to swerve. So I guess the helmet is not protecting me from my own actions, but the unpredictable accidents of others. Also as I'm new to cycling I think it'd be irresponsible of me to take that risk.

Interestingly enough, I read somewhere (I can't remember when or where) that motorists will drive closer to a cyclist if they wear a helmet. EDIT: ^seems like another poster has the source up there. Knew I wasn't making it up!

Sorry if I've opened a can of worms here, I'm not trying to persuade people to wear helmets or anything, as I don't really know any of you so don't care if you die or not :pac: I am sort of glad we're having this discussion though, because I've never heard anyone argue against wearing helmets and the points people are making are very interesting!

Harrybelafonte

Piste wrote: »

That's an interesting point, and not something I'd thought of before. By "easily be killed" I mean that if I was hit by a fast-moving vehicle without a helmet it's unlikely I'd survive. It's not that I *think* I'd have an accident, it's just I'm very aware that not everyone is as concerned for my safety as I am, and no matter how vigilant I am there's always the possibility of a driver not watching where they're going and running me over before I've time to swerve. So I gues the helmet is not protecting me from my own actions, but the u8npredictable accidents of others. Also as I'm new to cycling I think it'd be irresponsable of me to take that risk.

Interestingly enough, I read somewhere (I can't remember when or where) that motorists will drive closer to a cyclist if they wear a helmet.

Sorry if I've opened a can of worms here, I'm not trying to persuade people to wear helmets or anything, as I don't really know any of you so don't care if you die or not :pac:

Just do what you want to do. That's what everyone else does.:rolleyes:

Piste

I am going to continue doing what I want to do! Doesn't mean that I find anyone else's opinions less interesting or valid.

DirkVoodoo

Piste wrote: »

I am going to continue doing what I want to do! Doesn't mean that I find anyone else's opinions less interesting or valid.

That is exactly the kind of thinking we like on this forum. If you want to wear a helmet, wear it. If you don't, then don't wear one. Just do what you feel comfortable with on the bike (excluding law breaking here).

Konas point about light sequences is handy, I know pretty much all the lights on my route. Just wait for it to go green and check the junction as you pass through it. Using common sense on your commute is far more valuable than a piece of expanded foam. I've seen cyclists with and without helmets behave like absolute lemmings on the road, education is needed!

Piste

By light sequences do you mean knowing how much time is between traffic lights turning read at various junctions? Hehe I'd never heard of people learning off traffic light sequences before! I'm liking this forum more and more, it's a goldmine of information!

uberwolf

Piste wrote: »

By light sequences do you mean knowing how much time is between traffic lights turning read at various junctions? Hehe I'd never heard of people learning off traffic light sequences before! I'm liking this forum more and more, it's a goldmine of information!

you wouldn't learn them, so much as just know them - if that makes sense, making it intuitive rather than conscious.

cyclopath2001

Piste wrote: »

I'm a bad judge of speed so I cou'dn't tell if they're speeding, and

Next time you're in a car, take a peek at the speedometer in front of your driver, I think you'll be amazed.

Spiritoftheseventies

CDfm wrote: »

Its perfectly normal. I had a cylclist in dark clothing cross in front of me with no lights/refective clothing last night.

Its accepted as there is no enforcement.

not enough cycle lanes. thats the problem. In Amsterdam there are loads of them.. And thing is there is very little traffic over there compared to here. Bike city i would call it.

c0rk3r

I raced a guy the other day to work. He broke every single light on the journey whereas i stopped then busted a lung getting back onto his wheel only for the circle to be restarted at the next set of lights. The tragic thing is other than the fact i was cheated out of a decent commuter race was i found out the guy works for the RSA.

Beasty

bayviewclose wrote: »

not enough cycle lanes. thats the problem. In Amsterdam there are loads of them.. And thing is there is very little traffic over there compared to here. Bike city i would call it.

The Netherlands has a completely different attitude to cycling. Basically any accident involving a motor vehicle is assumed to be the fault of the motorist, unless he/she can prove different. Everyone respects cyclists over there. I have a couple of Dutch colleagues who came to work in Ireland a couple of years ago who are amazed at the poor quality of roads, lack of specific cycling lanes, and the attitude/behaviour/ignorance of a significant proportion of motorists over here.

billbond4

Simply put most road users in Ireland dont obey the rules of the road pedestrians, cyclists and motorists are all the same.
Just the Irish mentality of, sure if his breaking the lights or speeding I can do it too.
Over in Finland with work at the moment and everyone follows the rules over here, people cross at junctions only when the green man lights up, cyclists cycle on the footpath over here and you cycle on the right hand side of it.
Motorists don't abandon their cars to pop into the shop like they do in Ireland, they park in car park, and from what i have seen dont seem to speed.
We have sooooo much to learn with regards road/footpath use in Ireland.

Spiritoftheseventies

billbond4 wrote: »

Simply put most road users in Ireland dont obey the rules of the road pedestrians, cyclists and motorists are all the same.
Just the Irish mentality of, sure if his breaking the lights or speeding I can do it too.
Over in Finland with work at the moment and everyone follows the rules over here, people cross at junctions only when the green man lights up, cyclists cycle on the footpath over here and you cycle on the right hand side of it.
Motorists don't abandon their cars to pop into the shop like they do in Ireland, they park in car park, and from what i have seen dont seem to speed.
We have sooooo much to learn with regards road/footpath use in Ireland.

who abandons cars to go into shop. Any examples

cyclopath2001

bayviewclose wrote: »

who abandons cars to go into shop. Any examples

Fairview outbound: either partly or wholly in the cycle lane. Dollymount: outside the OddBinns off license, parked on double yellows beside a single white line on a dangerous bend (near the flowers for the most recent accident victim). Andrew street: in the cycle track outside the tourist office.....

kenmc

mikemac wrote: »

I break red lights
....<snip>..... Wouldn't break a red right on a motorcycle though

Why not? Bit hypocritical really to break the rules of the road sometimes, but not all the time no? What stops you doing it on the motorbike?