Help with Deadlift and critique my program

Frogdog

I'm 75kg, started weightlifting properly about 6 months ago as a means to add more lean muscle and lose a bit of bodyfat. I had absolutely no strength to start out with and have made some good gains in most of my exercises. I have 2 main issues though; deadlift and where to fit it into my program:

1. My deadlift routine is something like this -

1 x 6 x 60kg
1 x 6 x 70kg
1 x 6 x 75kg
1 x 6 x 80kg
1 x 6 x 80kg

I have a couple of problems and questions though. I have serious issues with my grip from 75kg on. I know/feel I can deadlift more than 80kg, but I'm hanging onto the bar by my fingernails at that stage. I've pretty skinny forearms, and I've been told by a gym instructor that grip is all in the forearms - anything i can do to get better grip? What exercises would be best? I also feel my muscles in my lower back being worked from the deadlift, which is what I always thought was right, however, the same instructor told me I should only feel it in my hamstrings, glutes and generally the whole leg area. Which muscle should feel it more, presuming my technique is correct? And I'm just doing the standard deadlift, not the one where you stand wide-legged (sorry don't know the correct name!).

2. Where do I fit the deadlift into my program? I go to the gym every second day and I have an upper body and lower body routine. So it's like this:

Mon: Upper
Tue: Rest
Wed: Lower
Thur: Rest
Fri: Upper
and so on....

My upper body currently consists of:

Bench Press - 5 x 6 x 45kg (weak I know but I am seeing progress every week)
Lat pull down - 5 x 6 x 100lbs
Deadlift - This is where I fit it in currently
One arm row - 5 x 6 x 24kg dumb bell
Shoulder Press - 5 x 6 x 12kg dumb bells
Bicep Curls - 5 x 6 x 15kg (excl EZ bar weight)
Triceps - 3 x 20 bodyweight dips
Abs - I do planks and crunches for about 5 - 10 minutes.

My lower body day is like this:

Squat - 5 x 6 x 70kg
Hamstring Curl - 3 x 8 x 130lbs
Leg press - 5 x 6 x 160lbs
Leg extension - 5 x 6 x 110lbs
Calf Raise - 5 x 6 x 50kg

Thing is, I feel knackered after my deadlift - it takes a lot out of me and affects my lifts for the other exercises after. I was wondering should I split my workout days into three instead of two? I feel like I have a lot on in my upper body day. Should I do my three core exercises (bench press, squat and deadlift) on separate days??? Are there any benefits to this?

gnolan

I can give you some advice regarding the deadlift - as i have had similar problems with grip.

First thing to try is a mixed grip, with your weak hand facing away from you when gripping the bar, keep your feet at shoulder width with your grip about 1-2 inches wider each side.

Next, buy yourself some liquid chalk, the difference between using chalk and your bare sweaty hands is night and day.

Also quite useful, is using the farmer's walk as an assistance exercise. Grab two pretty heavy dumbells and head off for a walk. They should be heavy enough so that you have to let go after around 30 seconds - i find it an extremely painful experience - but a useful one.

Brian?

The first thing I'd do is make sure you're doing your deadlifts first, that way you haven't tired out your forearms with lat pulldowns etc. As gnolan said, try switching to a mixed grip after your warmups.

What way do you currently deadlift, is it touch and go or do you set the bar down fully between reps?

There also seems to be a lot more volume in your upper day than lower. Maybe split it more to upper push, upper pull and legs or even better a push/pull. Push= Squat, bench, military press etc and Pull= Deadlift, row, lat pull etc.

Frogdog

briankeating wrote: »

What way do you currently deadlift, is it touch and go or do you set the bar down fully between reps?

I let the weight plates barely touch the ground before pulling back up so I guess I deadlift "touch and go". Is there a difference? I guess it'd be easier on the grip to let the bar down fully would it???

cardio,shoot me

i find it easier if i do touch and go, but i find my grip works harder because of it. Id also agree with brian on pretty much all he said

Frogdog

Perfect, thank a million lads.

I'm going to give the alternate grip a go, as well as the farmer's walk. Not too sure if my gym allows chalk, I'll ask them. I presume liquid chalk isn't powdery and is in fact liquid that dries into your hands? Apologies for my ignorance.

Also going to try the Push days and Pull days. Haven't done the military press before, but I've heard it's good and is another compound exercise (correct me if I'm wrong - I'm pretty new to all this stuff and still learning).

cardio,shoot me

Liquid chalk doesnt make a mess, and combine that with mixed grip and you will notice a huge difference. I highly doubt you will have any problem with grip even if you just used mixed.

Brian?

Frogdog wrote: »

I let the weight plates barely touch the ground before pulling back up so I guess I deadlift "touch and go". Is there a difference? I guess it'd be easier on the grip to let the bar down fully would it???

Touch and go is a lot harder on the grip I find. The best way I've found to strengthen my grip for deadlifting is more deadlifting though, so maybe you should try varying your deadlift between touch and go and setting the weight down fully. As said before as well, try using a mixed grip when your grips starts giving way, I personally don't see anything wrong with changing grip mid set. I could well be wrong about that though.

d'Oracle

Im confused OP.

Firstly, I dont see Deads as an upperbody exercise.
I you do get hit in the lats if you do it right, but its mainly lowerbody: hams, glutes, lower back, hips.... You should really feel it in you back, ass to lats, if you are doing it right.

Are you doing machine or standing shoulder press? I would be inclined to do standing SP before Deads. Mainly cos Deads kick all kinds of hell out of your back.

Finally, dips are far from just a tricep workout.

Aw hell I'm just gonna do it.
Try Starting Strength (http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki)

There is a book which is great.
I'm doing it and have learned a lot and am really happy with my progress...

If you havent seen it already.

Frogdog

d'Oracle wrote: »

Im confused OP.

Firstly, I dont see Deads as an upperbody exercise.
I you do get hit in the lats if you do it right, but its mainly lowerbody: hams, glutes, lower back, hips.... You should really feel it in you back, ass to lats, if you are doing it right.

Are you doing machine or standing shoulder press? I would be inclined to do standing SP before Deads. Mainly cos Deads kick all kinds of hell out of your back.

Finally, dips are far from just a tricep workout.

Aw hell I'm just gonna do it.
Try Starting Strength (http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki)

There is a book which is great.
I'm doing it and have learned a lot and am really happy with my progress...

If you havent seen it already.

Thanks d'Oracle.

You've cleared the whole "deadlift - upper or lower body exercise?" issue for me.

I'm doing a seated shoulder press with dumb bells, not a machine. Standing would be better for my back? Sound.

As for dips, yes I know they don't just work triceps, but it's the exercise my triceps fatigue the easiest.

As for Starting Strength, I've heard of it, but haven't looked into it before. Will do now. Thanks again.

Roper

Frogdog wrote: »

I have a couple of problems and questions though. I have serious issues with my grip from 75kg on. I know/feel I can deadlift more than 80kg, but I'm hanging onto the bar by my fingernails at that stage. I've pretty skinny forearms, and I've been told by a gym instructor that grip is all in the forearms - anything i can do to get better grip? What exercises would be best? I also feel my muscles in my lower back being worked from the deadlift, which is what I always thought was right, however, the same instructor told me I should only feel it in my hamstrings, glutes and generally the whole leg area. Which muscle should feel it more, presuming my technique is correct? And I'm just doing the standard deadlift, not the one where you stand wide-legged (sorry don't know the correct name!).

Your instructor doesn't seem to have deadlifted before or has a beast of a lower back. You should feel it mainly in your lower back the day after. yes it helps your glutes and hams but the DOMS generally won't manifest there.

Regarding the grip, it's a funny one. Slipping at 80kgs would be quite a weak grip, so you definitely need to work on that. Your forearms do have a part to play but by and large, grip is a neural concern, that is to say that your grip will improve as your CNS adapts to lifting heavier weights. You can mix the grip as stated above but it really shouldn't be going at 80kg, that's only 5kg above your bodyweight. To reverse the plane, wouldn't it be strange if you couldn't hang out of a bar for a while? Actually, that's a good idea for working the grip too, hang out of a bar, or just pull up.

2. Where do I fit the deadlift into my program? I go to the gym every second day and I have an upper body and lower body routine. So it's like this:

Mon: Upper
Tue: Rest
Wed: Lower
Thur: Rest
Fri: Upper
and so on....

My upper body currently consists of:

Bench Press - 5 x 6 x 45kg (weak I know but I am seeing progress every week)
Lat pull down - 5 x 6 x 100lbs
Deadlift - This is where I fit it in currently
One arm row - 5 x 6 x 24kg dumb bell
Shoulder Press - 5 x 6 x 12kg dumb bells
Bicep Curls - 5 x 6 x 15kg (excl EZ bar weight)
Triceps - 3 x 20 bodyweight dips
Abs - I do planks and crunches for about 5 - 10 minutes.

As stated, the deadlift is not an upper body exercise, but the good news is that you've actually stumbled on a much better format for your strength training. Upper/lower body splits don't favour newbies, and I would argue that they're not much good for intermediates either. You basically have several planes of motion that you can work with so what I would do is rather than doing the day on/day off thing and going upper-lower is I would break it into blocks of 3 sessions.
Day 1- Heavy upper body pushing (eg bench, dumbell press)/heavy lower body hip dominant (eg deadlift, RDL)
Day 2- Heavy Lower body pushing (Squats, leg press etc.)/heavy upper body pulling (pull ups, inverted rows, pulldowns)
Day 3- Heavy lower body hip dominant/heavy overhead pushing (Overhead press, dumbell press etc.)
And in between, stick in your assistance exercises like your dips and curls and planks. It's basic and crude but it should give you an idea of where things fit into a schedule.

The main thing that's going to wreck you is not resting and eating effectively.

Frogdog

Thanks a million for your help Roper, I appreciate the time you gave to have a look at what I'm doing and offering your advice.

I'm going to change my program, and from reading introductions etc. into Starting Strength and yours and other posters' recommendations it seems that three separate days work best.

As for rest, I get between 7 or 7.5 hours uninterrupted sleep a night. I'd like to increase that by an hour in an ideal world. I wake about 6:30am and usually run a few miles most mornings. I'm not going to give up the running, it's something I need to do to keep fit and alert, although I also hear it eats into your muscle. I'd like to be lean and hard, not so much stocky and bulky. I think my body type would be more Bruce Lee than Arnie!

Diet wise a normal day would be:

7:30am - Big bowl of porridge with loads of low fat milk, a big spoonful of golden linseed and a little drizzle of honey. Cod liver oil tablet. Handful of mixed nuts.

11am - A banana and a low fat, natural youghurt.

1pm - 2 grilled chicken breasts/big steak, wholewheat pasta/brown rice/quinoa, 2 portions of steamed veg.

4pm - An apple and a can of tuna.

6pm - Grilled fish of some sort and 2 portions of steamed veg.

10pm - Just before bed I have another low fat natural yoghurt and a glass of milk.

I've cut all bread out of my diet and I feel way better for it.
I'd drink about 3-4 litres of water throughout the day on a rest day. On a gym day about 4-5 litres.
On a gym day I'd have a protein shake (no carbs, made with water) straight after the gym and also one in the morning when I wake up.

If anyone can critique my diet/rest that would also be greatly appreciated!

Kev M

Frogdog wrote: »

Thanks a million for your help Roper, I appreciate the time you gave to have a look at what I'm doing and offering your advice.

I'm going to change my program, and from reading introductions etc. into Starting Strength and yours and other posters' recommendations it seems that three separate days work best.

As for rest, I get between 7 or 7.5 hours uninterrupted sleep a night. I'd like to increase that by an hour in an ideal world. I wake about 6:30am and usually run a few miles most mornings. I'm not going to give up the running, it's something I need to do to keep fit and alert, although I also hear it eats into your muscle. I'd like to be lean and hard, not so much stocky and bulky. I think my body type would be more Bruce Lee than Arnie!

Diet wise a normal day would be:

7:30am - Big bowl of porridge with loads of low fat milk, a big spoonful of golden linseed and a little drizzle of honey. Cod liver oil tablet. Handful of mixed nuts.

11am - A banana and a low fat, natural youghurt.

1pm - 2 grilled chicken breasts/big steak, wholewheat pasta/brown rice/quinoa, 2 portions of steamed veg.

4pm - An apple and a can of tuna.

6pm - Grilled fish of some sort and 2 portions of steamed veg.

10pm - Just before bed I have another low fat natural yoghurt and a glass of milk.

I've cut all bread out of my diet and I feel way better for it.
I'd drink about 3-4 litres of water throughout the day on a rest day. On a gym day about 4-5 litres.
On a gym day I'd have a protein shake (no carbs, made with water) straight after the gym and also one in the morning when I wake up.

If anyone can critique my diet/rest that would also be greatly appreciated!

I won't beat about the bush here, the secret mass-building meal is noodles, chicken, and eggs with curry sauce. The MacDonalds halfpounder with cheese is also very effective. These meals alone will develop your deadlift grip strength.


From looking at your diet I'd push for more protein in the morning meals, protein in nuts and oats is fairly low grade (although lots of people think it's fine). It's funny because your diet is just so clean, it almost seems ridiculous to be making a comment about it. All I'd say is a shake in the morning is a good idea, and don't be afraid of carbs if you want to grow.