Team for the Autumn Internationals.

danthefan

Can anyone see any changes to the starting lineup? I'd say DK will most likely stick with the winning formula of the 6N. In theory you'd think ROG and Horan would be under threat from Sexton and Healy but I can't see either change being made, unless ROG continues on at the start of next season playing like he did in that fateful 10 minutes. There could be a lot of change on the bench though, we don't know if TOL will be fit or what form he'll be in, Sexton has to be on the bench, Ross will have a good chance to show what he can do, MOD should be gotten rid of once and for all, Earls should come onto the bench, and Leamy needs to find some form to fend off SO'B/Jennings/Best.

Edit - this is really just for SA and Aus, I hope we see changes for Fiji.

mr socco

In recent years I think Kidney has had a good record of throwing young players in for important matches ie. Hurley/O'Leary in Heineken semi. The two changes I hope he makes are Sexton and Healy. There is possibly an argument to be made if ROG plays well at the start of the season to start him in the Autumn internationals so he doesn't feel victimised etc. :mad: (a photo of ROG on the bench). We do still kind of need him for the foreseeable future in case Sexton is injured. I think he will give one a go against Australia and one a go against South Africa.

Healy being brought straight in is touch and go. Horan was pretty good last season but this is one selection I feel Kidney will make if Healy keeps up his form from the end of last season.

sm.org

danthefan wrote: »

Can anyone see any changes to the starting lineup? I'd say DK will most likely stick with the winning formula of the 6N. In theory you'd think ROG and Horan would be under threat from Sexton and Healy but I can't see either change being made, unless ROG continues on at the start of next season playing like he did in that fateful 10 minutes. There could be a lot of change on the bench though, we don't know if TOL will be fit or what form he'll be in, Sexton has to be on the bench, Ross will have a good chance to show what he can do, MOD should be gotten rid of once and for all, Earls should come onto the bench, and Leamy needs to find some form to fend off SO'B/Jennings/Best.

Edit - this is really just for SA and Aus, I hope we see changes for Fiji.

I could see him start Healy,Mushy,Sexton,Earls and Reddan against Fiji. He's going to start all the establised players against OZ and SA with maybe a few 20 minute run outs for the above.

Just because Ross is a Leinster player doesn't mean he's now international standard. He'll do well to force his way into the Leinster XV to start with.

I really hope this doesn't become another anti ROG thread.

Amabokke

For some reason or poor excuse I believe Kidney will stick with ROG as the starting flyhalf, which is a shame as Sexton would need some gametime against some of the toughest teams if he is going to take over in future.

I think Ireland will have a well balanced backrow and 3 great backs where the attacks will come from.

buck65

Amabokke wrote: »

For some reason or poor excuse I believe Kidney will stick with ROG as the starting flyhalf, which is a shame as Sexton would need some gametime against some of the toughest teams if he is going to take over in future.

I think Ireland will have a well balanced backrow and 3 great backs where the attacks will come from.

I actually feel the wheel has come around and he will alternate a bit almost like O Sullivan did with Humphreys and O Gara.
Despite O Gara's poor showing in the test game he did play some decent stuff in the earlier games and really could still do a job in some games. However despite all this I agree that his form is inconsistent, even for Munster for the past year or so. I don't see him on the Irish team for the World Cup 2011, maybe it would be better to develop Sexton or even Keatley a bit more in the AIs. Kidney can be ruthless - ask A Foley, P Stringer.
If he feels the change is needed he will drop O Gara. O Gara is what 33 now? he really doesn't owe us much.
Also Warwick will push hard for the 10 jersey in Munster over the next 2 seasons.
Healy is def worth a look.
My team for the Boks.
1.Healy 2. Flannery 3. Hayes 4. DOC 5. POC 6. Ferris 7. Wallace 8. Heaslip 9. O Leary (if fit/ Stringer) 10. Sexton 11. Luke 12. Darcy 13. O Driscoll 14. Bowe 15. Kearney - Best, Horan, Earls, ROG, Reddan, Leamy, Cullen

danthefan

I like the look of that side but we've no tighthead cover. If Hayes got injured things would get very messy.

Amabokke

buck65 wrote: »

My team for the Boks.
1.Healy 2. Flannery 3. Hayes 4. DOC 5. POC 6. Ferris 7. Wallace 8. Heaslip 9. O Leary (if fit/ Stringer) 10. Sexton 11. Luke 12. Darcy 13. O Driscoll 14. Bowe 15. Kearney - Best, Horan, Earls, ROG, Reddan, Leamy, Cullen

Good and strong Irish squad. Should be a cracker against the boks and Aus. O'Leary just need to learn to be quicker at the breakdown and his passing better.

danthefan

For me anyway Sexton is ready to play an international. A HEC SF and Final are about as close to test rugby as you can possibly get and he proved himself in both.

buck65

danthefan wrote: »

I like the look of that side but we've no tighthead cover. If Hayes got injured things would get very messy.

Could Horan step in there? Or Healy switch to make room for Horan

danthefan

buck65 wrote: »

Could Horan step in there? Or Healy switch to make room for Horan

I have never seen either play at TH.

remus808

They are both too slight to be able to cover tighthead IMO, and Healy definitely isn't experienced enough to cover the other side I'd imagine, mind you Cheiks might have introduced it to him when he was benching for Leinster

dub_skav

For me Horan starts or doesn't make the bench. Court is decent cover for both sides IIRC.

Horan still has a lot to offer ireland but I don't think it's as a sub for the AIs.

LeinsterMagic

Team for Autumn series: TONY BUCKLEY, JERRY FLANNERY, CIAN HEALY, DONNCHA O'CALLAGHAN, PAUL O'CONNELL ©, STEPHEN FERRIS, SEAN O'BRIEN, JAMIE HEASLIP, EOIN REDDAN, JOHNNY SEXTON, KEITH EARLS, FERGUS MCFADDEN, LUKE FITZGERALD, ROB KEARNEY, TOMMY BOWE.

Amabokke

LeinsterMagic wrote: »

Team for Autumn series: TONY BUCKLEY, JERRY FLANNERY, CIAN HEALY, DONNCHA O'CALLAGHAN, PAUL O'CONNELL ©, STEPHEN FERRIS, SEAN O'BRIEN, JAMIE HEASLIP, EOIN REDDAN, JOHNNY SEXTON, KEITH EARLS, FERGUS MCFADDEN, LUKE FITZGERALD, ROB KEARNEY, TOMMY BOWE.

Just one issue with that, where's the experience?? POC, Flannery are the only ones with decent experience and game time. If the young and inexperienced ones get unsettled in a match and panic where is your game breakers or players to keep cool heads?

thomond2006

LeinsterMagic wrote: »

Team for Autumn series: TONY BUCKLEY, JERRY FLANNERY, CIAN HEALY, DONNCHA O'CALLAGHAN, PAUL O'CONNELL ©, STEPHEN FERRIS, SEAN O'BRIEN, JAMIE HEASLIP, EOIN REDDAN, JOHNNY SEXTON, KEITH EARLS, FERGUS MCFADDEN, LUKE FITZGERALD, ROB KEARNEY, TOMMY BOWE.

Are you for real? :eek::eek::eek:

No BOD, no Wallace, no Stringer?

LeinsterMagic

Bench: BOD, DARCY, ROG, HAYES, BEST plenty of experience to bring on if things go badly!

Amabokke

LeinsterMagic wrote: »

Bench: BOD, DARCY, ROG, HAYES, BEST plenty of experience to bring on if things go badly!

Against the boks if you are 15 points down? Have you seen the intensity of the Lions matches. Ireland will never recover quick enough if they're falling behind. WC07 reminder.

Anyway, this is just speculation by you, Kidney is no fool.

LeinsterMagic

After watching the Churchill Cup and building towards the world cup why not blood players and see how they get on build up a large squad of player and god knows BOD and others like him could do with the rest. Does it matter if we win or loose the Autumn internationals??

Amabokke

LeinsterMagic wrote: »

After watching the Churchill Cup and building towards the world cup why not blood players and see how they get on build up a large squad of player and god knows BOD and others like him could do with the rest. Does it matter if we win or loose the Autumn internationals??

And what happens if you loose every match in the next WC, then all this "rebuilding" was for nothing. What's the point of losing all your matches between WCs if you are not 100% sure you can take the trophy in the end. If Ireland starts losing ratings will drop, spectators will loose interest and sponsorships will question it.

It's good to rebuild but you need to do it with a combination of old/experienced and young newcomers.

Riskymove

LeinsterMagic wrote: »

After watching the Churchill Cup and building towards the world cup why not blood players and see how they get on build up a large squad of player and god knows BOD and others like him could do with the rest. Does it matter if we win or loose the Autumn internationals??

I am all for giving players match time but I would also like to do well, preferably winning, especially against the boks given they are (a) world champions and (b) the Lions tour still lingering

while insisitence on the same group for too long is an issue, too many changes at once is as big a problem, the WC is still two years away and we need not panic

I am sure some other players will come along and some will not progress as we expect; its the natural way of things.


On a seperate note I cannot see players like McFadden, Toner etc getting game time with ireland until they get some appropriate time as provincial/club level. Maybe 6N, AIs next year if they get good time this season


My suggestions for the AI:


1 Hayes; Buckley on bench, start v fiji
2 Flannery/Best interchange
3 Horan v Boks/ Healy vs Fiji, wallabies
4 POC Ryan, Cullen as back-up, perhaps Toner
5 DOC
6 Ferris
7 Wallace
8 Heaslip Jennings, Leamy, O'Brien to get some time

9 O'Leary/Reddan interchange
10 ROG; Sexton to come on, start v Fiji

11 Fitz
12 D'Arcy
13 BOD Earls, Wallace
14 Bowe

15 Kearney

LeinsterMagic

it's a fair point but i honestly believe that we have strength in dept we should try and develop this maybe a more softer approach is needed but i think that starting lineup would give any South African or Australian team a run for its money!

premierstone

LeinsterMagic wrote: »

it's a fair point but i honestly believe that we have strength in dept we should try and develop this maybe a more softer approach is needed but i think that starting lineup would give any South African or Australian team a run for its money!

Well then you either seriously over rate some of them Irish players or you seriously under rate the SA and AUS teams

LeinsterMagic

These players have helped Munster and Leinster to Heineken Cup successes Ireland to a first ever Churchill Cup have faith in the squad they might just surprise you

Riskymove

LeinsterMagic wrote: »

These players have helped Munster and Leinster to Heineken Cup successes Ireland to a first ever Churchill Cup have faith in the squad they might just surprise you

7 of the players you propose to start have hardly any or little international experience.

some of them are not even starters for club/province

stephen_n

Kidney won't go for whole sale changes IMO and nor should he, maybe against Figi he might satrt with Sexton, Healy and Earls but in the other two matches he should start with our 6n winning team and bring on those lads in the last 20 minutes!

Amabokke

LeinsterMagic wrote: »

These players have helped Munster and Leinster to Heineken Cup successes Ireland to a first ever Churchill Cup have faith in the squad they might just surprise you

International rugby is a completely different game and the intensity will be raised by at least 10 bar and not just 1 or 2. Some players don't have enough experience for that even if they did well in the HC.

nosco

Leinstermagic - are you for real?

To be honest i'm not sure that Sexton is even up to it, never mind the likes of mcfadden, and o'brien. I can only assume you're viewing this through a pair of blue lens glasses!!!(I'm a leinster man myself)

Now, back to the sexton point cos i'm sure i will have risen a few heads here. He seems to be the next messiah according to some of you. I genuinely just don't think he's top quality. To me he looks decidedly average. Who am i to judge you might say, and fair enough but i'm just interested to hear if anyone has the same opinion? I'm sure we've all been there before where th majority rate someone, but you just can't see it and so if someone could enlighten me then i'd be grateful.

Granted he performed well in a few big matches at the end of the season, and fair dues to him, but to me he looked very much like a man playing above his station. I think people's assumptions that he'll be 10 for years to come could be well off the mark. Unfortunately, we don't have much option again at 10. A perenial problem it seems, (In saying that I haven't seen an awful lot of keatley).

premierstone

nosco wrote: »

Leinstermagic - are you for real?

To be honest i'm not sure that Sexton is even up to it, never mind the likes of mcfadden, and o'brien. I can only assume you're viewing this through a pair of blue lens glasses!!!(I'm a leinster man myself)

Now, back to the sexton point cos i'm sure i will have risen a few heads here. He seems to be the next messiah according to some of you. I genuinely just don't think he's top quality. To me he looks decidedly average. Who am i to judge you might say, and fair enough but i'm just interested to hear if anyone has the same opinion? I'm sure we've all been there before where th majority rate someone, but you just can't see it and so if someone could enlighten me then i'd be grateful.

Granted he performed well in a few big matches at the end of the season, and fair dues to him, but to me he looked very much like a man playing above his station. I think people's assumptions that he'll be 10 for years to come could be well off the mark. Unfortunately, we don't have much option again at 10. A perenial problem it seems, (In saying that I haven't seen an awful lot of keatley).

While I wouldnt quite go as far as saying that he is decidedly average I do agree that the hype and praise is completely overboard, and the assumption that he will seemlessly adapt to international rugby is quite frankly laughable, and apart from that it is also putting undue pressure on the guy himself, I think its out of desperation more than anything though in ht efact that we have had no cover at 10 for so long.

On a side issue I find it very funny that when Munster won the HC, and Munster fans, being biased addmittedly, well calling for certain players to be given a shot with Irealnd and also when the whole ROG debate was at its worst people pointed out that he had performed excellently in the HC, this was dismissed as ''club rugby'' and nowhere near test standard, but now suddenly Sextons two above average performances in the same competition have elevated him to the new saviour of Irish rugby and he is guaranteed according to some here to start in the most pivotal role in WC '11

buck65

I doubted him and even after he came on in the HCup semi final I said that until he started a big game and played well I wasn't convinced. He had a good first 30 minutes in the HCup final and took his points. To me he can handle the big day alright - how good is he? Time will tell, definitely worth a shot. Actually he is in a good position because he has his old buddy ROG there to mentor him through the next 2 seasons before O Gara retires (surely!).
I would expect to see him or Keatley get some game time over the next season.
Saying that , personally I don't like the guy, he is petulant and oponents will wind him up easily , he reminds me of Mike Philips on the field - i.e an annoying ****er but he is worth his chance.

twinytwo

danthefan wrote: »

I like the look of that side but we've no tighthead cover. If Hayes got injured things would get very messy.

like thats ever going to happen

Stev_o

The new season hasn't even started yet for all we know many of those players may suddenly have a huge slump in form and other players that have been under the radar may start putting their hands up. Way too soon for speculation come back in October and we should have a better perspective on matters.

twinytwo

LeinsterMagic wrote: »

Team for Autumn series: TONY BUCKLEY, JERRY FLANNERY, CIAN HEALY, DONNCHA O'CALLAGHAN, PAUL O'CONNELL ©, STEPHEN FERRIS, SEAN O'BRIEN, JAMIE HEASLIP, EOIN REDDAN, JOHNNY SEXTON, KEITH EARLS, FERGUS MCFADDEN, LUKE FITZGERALD, ROB KEARNEY, TOMMY BOWE.

that team would get steam rolled by the boks... Earls at 12 McFadden at 13??.. he would be slaughtered.. people yak on about how Wallace protects OGara imagine what the likes of burger would do to Sexton without Wallace there... and explain why you would leave our cap and biggest weapon on the bench

as for you question as to is it important as to wether we win or lose the AI's....... what kind of rugby fan are you?

spoon

twinytwo wrote: »

like thats ever going to happen

AAGGH! don't tempt fate!

Riskymove

premierstone wrote: »

On a side issue I find it very funny that when Munster won the HC, and Munster fans, being biased addmittedly, well calling for certain players to be given a shot with Irealnd and also when the whole ROG debate was at its worst people pointed out that he had performed excellently in the HC, this was dismissed as ''club rugby'' and nowhere near test standard, but now suddenly Sextons two above average performances in the same competition have elevated him to the new saviour of Irish rugby and he is guaranteed according to some here to start in the most pivotal role in WC '11

indeed, Hurley to start for ireland at 15 a notable one

But that's life and media hype! It will always happen

Riskymove

Stev_o wrote: »

Way too soon for speculation come back in October and we should have a better perspective on matters.

well, we know that, but to be fair but on that basis we could never speculate on a team until a couple of days before each match

thomond2006

To LeinsterMagic:

Please log on and try to defend your team selection.

danthefan

thomond2006 wrote: »

To LeinsterMagic:

Please log on and try to defend your team selection.

Thomond, with all due respect, I can still remember your selection for the 6N and it was a lot worse than that. He's said it's a team for the future, no need to crucify him.

siltirocker

Leinstermagic - why would you have the best outside centre of the professional era, playing in the season of his life on the bench?

dude wtf?

Riskymove

thomond2006 wrote: »

To LeinsterMagic:

Please log on and try to defend your team selection.

see his other thread on RWC 2011 for further views

Eoin

I think that winning the grand slam has given Kidney a lot of breathing space. I can't think of any reasons not to develop the squad a good bit in the next 6N let alone the Autumn Internationals - other than possible impacts on world rankings / seedings.

Amabokke wrote:

And what happens if you loose every match in the next WC, then all this "rebuilding" was for nothing. What's the point of losing all your matches between WCs if you are not 100% sure you can take the trophy in the end. If Ireland starts losing ratings will drop, spectators will loose interest and sponsorships will question it.

It's not all about "rebuilding", it's about getting some depth. Ireland has probably had 15 players that could win the world cup for a number of years. However, we haven't had a 22 to 30 players that could, and that's crucial.

Amabokke wrote:

It's good to rebuild but you need to do it with a combination of old/experienced and young newcomers.

I do agree with this - maybe introduce 3/4/5 players who wouldn't normally start, and have the big guns on the bench. Do that across the games, and it's a good start.

buck65 wrote: »

Could Horan step in there? Or Healy switch to make room for Horan

I doubt it. There aren't a huge amount of international props out there that can play either side of the scrum that I am aware of, and at the risk of angering people I don't think Horan is a solid enough scrummager to give tighthead a go.

LeeroyJones

premierstone wrote: »

On a side issue I find it very funny that when Munster won the HC, and Munster fans, being biased addmittedly, well calling for certain players to be given a shot with Irealnd and also when the whole ROG debate was at its worst people pointed out that he had performed excellently in the HC, this was dismissed as ''club rugby'' and nowhere near test standard, but now suddenly Sextons two above average performances in the same competition have elevated him to the new saviour of Irish rugby and he is guaranteed according to some here to start in the most pivotal role in WC '11

Whatever people's opinion on Sexton is, the fact is ROG will be 34 come NZ 2011 - it is reasonable to think that at 34 ROG won't be able to play 80 minutes 7 times over 6 weeks, and that's what the bigger picture is for a team aspiring for the World Cup title. Because of all this we need to give our young lads a chance, particularly if they are performing well in the H Cup.

premierstone

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Whatever people's opinion on Sexton is, the fact is ROG will be 34 come NZ 2011 - it is reasonable to think that at 34 ROG won't be able to play 80 minutes 7 times over 6 weeks, and that's what the bigger picture is for a team aspiring for the World Cup title. Because of all this we need to give our young lads a chance, particularly if they are performing well in the H Cup.

I accept that Leeroy, but I dont think it can be taken as a certainty that Sexton will be our starting OH in 2011, I never once mentioned ROG, If sexton has so suddenly jumped to the top of the queue who is to say someone else wont do the same in the interim or conversley that Sexton wont dissapear as quickly.

Im not for one second suggesting that Sexton definitely wont but I do find it strange that so many people here are taking it a forgone conclusion and are accepting it as set in stone when the guy hasnt even been in a senior 22 yet - serioulsy only in Ireland :rolleyes:

Eoin

premierstone wrote: »

If sexton has so suddenly jumped to the top of the queue who is to say someone else wont do the same in the interim or conversley that Sexton wont dissapear as quickly.

The only reason I can see not to give him a run is if there is someone right now who is likely to succeed O'Gara. Is there such a player? Paddy Wallace is hardly the long term option.

premierstone

eoin wrote: »

The only reason I can see not to give him a run is if there is someone right now who is likely to succeed O'Gara. Is there such a player? Paddy Wallace is hardly the long term option.

By all means give him a crack at it and he deserves a go my point is everyone is just assumming he will be a success and automatically be Irelands starting OH at the next world cup, which is optomistic to say the least, I guess im just too cynical but I have seen too many players burst on to the scene just to dissapear as quickly, I know he has'nt exactly come from nowhere but would anyone here 6 months ago have been so willing to state as fact that he was going to be our first choice OH in th enext WC?

Eoin

No, but hopefully he will be given the chance, which I think it's fair to say he hasn't really had to date.

Absolutely nobody is a given starter what with injuries and all that - but we're getting to the stage where we have to look at alternatives - and so far he appears to be the most likely.

premierstone

Yes he does look the most likely and deserves a go, but in fairness saying he hasnt been given a chance previously is unfair he hadnt merited it and infact DK probably gave him a better chance than Cheika did until Cheika's hand was forced, DK had him involved with the senior squad when he wasnt gettin a look in with Leinster.

Eoin

I don't think Nacewa deserved to start at 10 ahead of him, which he seemed to for a good bit of Leinster's campaign whenever Dr Phil wasn't available.

lobber

In terms of the whole ROG/Sexton debate running through this thread it is vital that we don't cast ROG aside based on a 'brainfart' 10 minute spell in SA. He had a good tour and would probably have started in the tests were it not for his weakness in defense. Once back to munster he will get back to his usual self.
However there is an urgent need to expose Sexton and Keatley to International level as soon as possible both from an Irish point of view and even from their own need to nail down the 10 jersey for their respective provinces. both go hand in hand. blooding them as early as possible for Ireland is an absolute must as coaches need to know now there is a viable replacement to ROG at 10

Chucky the tree

I'd like to see BOD rested for the AI.

1. Healey
2. Flannery
3. Ross
4. DOC
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. Wallace
8 Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. ROG
11. Earls
12. D'arcy
13. Fitz
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

danthefan

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I'd like to see BOD rested for the AI.

Why?

Stev_o

danthefan wrote: »

Why?

He doesn't need to be involved in pointless internationals, needs to be rested for the defence of the 6N title which he'll play a huge part in.