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the virgin mary tree stump

  • 09-07-2009 7:50pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭


    treee975698.png
    Is this evidence that you don't need to be a complete moron to believe in religion, but it helps?

    Before you say that this is only a minority who believes this. I was on my lunch break at work the night after this 'miracle' and one of the women I work with is from that village and was amongst the first people to see the 'image' She showed everyone the picture on her mobile phone, and 80% of the people who saw it said "that's amazing, there's no other explanation other than it was a miracle).
    They then went on to discuss Mary's 'house in turkey' and how it's also definitely the real deal because two of them had been there and experienced 'a feeling'


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 645 ✭✭✭StopNotWorking


    Are you posting here just looking for a fight? Because it sounds like it. Let them believe what they want, do other peoples opinions upset you that much?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Akrasia wrote: »
    treee975698.png
    Is this evidence that you don't need to be a complete moron to believe in religion, but it helps?

    Before you say that this is only a minority who believes this. I was on my lunch break at work the night after this 'miracle' and one of the women I work with is from that village and was amongst the first people to see the 'image' She showed everyone the picture on her mobile phone, and 80% of the people who saw it said "that's amazing, there's no other explanation other than it was a miracle).
    They then went on to discuss Mary's 'house in turkey' and how it's also definitely the real deal because two of them had been there and experienced 'a feeling'
    your in wrong section here. loads of threads on this, but not the place to be discussing it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    what in God's name is that post about, because I can't make head nor tails of it tbh.


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,532 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    prinz wrote: »
    what in God's name is that post about, because I can't make head nor tails of it tbh.

    I think they're talking about this case of people seeing what they want to see down in limerick. :)

    http://www.limericknewswire.com/2009/07/07/virgin-mary-image-%E2%80%98appears%E2%80%99-on-tree-in-rathkeale-locals/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 831 ✭✭✭achtungbarry


    Actually, I think I can see it.

    dawkinstree.jpg?t=1247176156


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Akrasia wrote: »
    treee975698.png
    Is this evidence that you don't need to be a complete moron to believe in religion, but it helps?

    It is evidence that the human mind is very easily manipulated into seeing pattern and recognition in nature when none actually exists.

    Religious people who dismiss this as nonsense might like to think a bit about the "signs" they take to mean their religion is real and how different or similar those signs are to this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Wicknight wrote: »
    It is evidence that the human mind is very easily manipulated into seeing pattern and recognition in nature when none actually exists.

    Religious people who dismiss this as nonsense might like to think a bit about the "signs" they take to mean their religion is real and how different or similar those signs are to this.

    Can you explain how this image got onto this cloth? Because nobody else can, not even the best forensic scientists in the world can explain how this image was formed.

    TheShroudofTurin.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Can you explain how this image got onto this cloth? Because nobody else can, not even the best forensic scientists in the world can explain how this image was formed.

    TheShroudofTurin.jpg
    I saw some documentary about this. thats supposed to be some crusader i think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    Can you explain how this image got onto this cloth? Because nobody else can, not even the best forensic scientists in the world can explain how this image was formed.

    TheShroudofTurin.jpg


    God?
    Although this wouldn't ake any sense now would it?
    Or else this is another example of God scattering random evidence of his existence across the universe in the hope that we can somehow logically assemble it? No that doesn't make sense either becasue he has told us to have faith. If then presents us with evidence that 'even scientists' can't figure out then what reprecussions does that have for our faith? It's all rather illogical, nonsensical and messy isn't it. It's as if there is no plan and no God - only pattern seeking mammals with a desperate need for love and understanding who, ironically, casue pain and misunderrstanding by demanding that their view of the universe is inerrant and irrefutable whilst at the same time untestable or observable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    God?
    Although this wouldn't ake any sense now would it?
    Or else this is another example of God scattering random evidence of his existence across the universe in the hope that we can somehow logically assemble it? No that doesn't make sense either becasue he has told us to have faith. If then presents us with evidence that 'even scientists' can't figure out then what reprecussions does that have for our faith? It's all rather illogical, nonsensical and messy isn't it. It's as if there is no plan and no God - only pattern seeking mammals with a desperate need for love and understanding who, ironically, casue pain and misunderrstanding by demanding that their view of the universe is inerrant and irrefutable whilst at the same time untestable or observable.
    http://www.khouse.org/articles/2001/321/
    this is the link. not saying its true.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    Or else this is another example of God scattering random evidence of his existence across the universe in the hope that we can somehow logically assemble it? No that doesn't make sense either becasue he has told us to have faith. If then presents us with evidence that 'even scientists' can't figure out then what reprecussions does that have for our faith?

    It wouldn't have any reprecussions for our faith. Faith is where we lack proof for a proposition but do see enough evidence to lead us to a conclusion.

    Your argument would only be valid if faith were 'blind' - a straw man that atheists wave on this forum with depressing frequency.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    God?
    Although this wouldn't ake any sense now would it?
    Or else this is another example of God scattering random evidence of his existence across the universe in the hope that we can somehow logically assemble it? No that doesn't make sense either becasue he has told us to have faith. If then presents us with evidence that 'even scientists' can't figure out then what reprecussions does that have for our faith? It's all rather illogical, nonsensical and messy isn't it. It's as if there is no plan and no God - only pattern seeking mammals with a desperate need for love and understanding who, ironically, casue pain and misunderrstanding by demanding that their view of the universe is inerrant and irrefutable whilst at the same time untestable or observable.

    I don't know what it is. All I know is that it is the most scientifically scrutinize artifact in history and has been subject to the most thorough scientific tests and they still cannot explain how the image got onto the cloth. That's all I'm saying. I don't need it in order to have a faith in God, I gots that already without it. I just love sitting back and watching scientist getting befuddled over it. If it is not the genuine article then I am dying to find out how a medieval fake like this was done. If it is truly a fake surely they would have been able to shows us by now. The only thing they had going for them was the carbon dating results which came back false because the sample they used was contaminated with newer fabric which was added to the cloth at a later time. Every other test that was done shows it to be a genuine cloth from Palestine around the time of Jesus, so if its not Him then who is it? And how did they create this negative image hundreds of years before photography was invented? And how did they know to put certain types of bloodstains on the head area which only show up under ultraviolet light that nobody would have been able to see until modern times when we can use ultraviolet light in forensics and what not? If it is a fake it is the best fake ever, not even Da Vinci himself could have produced such a masterpiece of fakery. But like I said I don't need it to have a faith in God even if it is genuine, plus it leaves that stump in the happeny place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    doh

    there's a similar thread on a&a - thought I was posting there. That comment was a bit strong for here - apologies

    @pdn

    My point about faith is that it is not necessary if God gives us evidence of his existence. To which respect he either is or is not giving us evidence. I am baffled that God would give us 'cryptic evidence'. That's essentially confusion, no?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭LeotheLion


    Can you explain how this image got onto this cloth? Because nobody else can, not even the best forensic scientists in the world can explain how this image was formed.

    TheShroudofTurin.jpg


    The turin shroud


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    All I know is that it is the most scientifically scrutinize artifact in history and has been subject to the most thorough scientific tests and they still cannot explain how the image got onto the cloth. That's all I'm saying. I don't need it in order to have a faith in God, I gots that already without it. I just love sitting back and watching scientist getting befuddled over it.

    Has it ever occurred to you that science is not infallible and does not claim to be? There are loads of things science cannot explain (yet?) but the difference is they admit it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    doh

    there's a similar thread on a&a - thought I was posting there. That comment was a bit strong for here - apologies

    @pdn

    My point about faith is that it is not necessary if God gives us evidence of his existence. To which respect he either is or is not giving us evidence. I am baffled that God would give us 'cryptic evidence'. That's essentially confusion, no?

    If it is genuine then I fail to see how you would regard it as cryptic. The image fits perfectly with the narrative of the scourging, the crown of thorns, the pierced side and nail marks in the hands in the New Testament. Maybe God forsaw the need in certain individuals like Thomas who need tangible evidence for His existence in order to have faith in Him, and that He provided that for them in the shroud. Of course not everyone will believe it is genuine and not every believer needs it in order to have faith but it just might be the thing that will tip the scale for certain people into believing in Him, especially the scientific types.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    If it is genuine then I fail to see how you would regard it as cryptic. The image fits perfectly with the narrative of the scourging, the crown of thorns, the pierced side and nail marks in the hands in the New Testament. Maybe God forsaw the need in certain individuals like Thomas who need tangible evidence for His existence in order to have faith in Him, and that He provided that for them in the shroud. Of course not everyone will believe it is genuine and not every believer needs it in order to have faith but it just might be the thing that will tip the scale for certain people into believing in Him, especially the scientific types.

    This highlighted doesn't add up becasue

    1) why give some people an advantage
    2) why not just make thomas different
    3) tangible proof - no need for faith


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    The image fits perfectly with the narrative of the scourging, the crown of thorns, the pierced side and nail marks in the hands in the New Testament.

    The only thing it doesn't fit with is the fact that if you wrap or cover an actual three dimensional person in cloth it will not leave an imprint like this. It's most likely some kind of relief imprinted on the fabric with some unknown technology. I haven't even read any of the Turin Shroud stuff, it's just logical.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    herya wrote: »
    Has it ever occurred to you that science is not infallible and does not claim to be? There are loads of things science cannot explain (yet?) but the difference is they admit it.

    Oh I know that it can't explain the origin of the universe or why the constants that make it possible for life to exist were right there in the initial conditions of the big bang and that they can't prove that God doesn't exists, but this is a piece of cloth with an image of a crucified man on it? Surely that's no big deal? Well it obviously is because they can't explain how it got on there. Even if it is only as old as the the carbon dating test show, which place it in the 11th to the 12th centuries, it still doesn't explain how someone in that time could have known about photography and ultraviolet light technology. For one they can't even tell you how the image was produced,then even if they do they can't explain how someone in that time could produce a negative image,because that is what it is, and wholly apart form the image who ever made it also knew how to place certain types of blood stains around the head area that only show up under ultraviolet light. If it is a fake then the faker was a genius who would cause Da Vinci and Michaelangelo to blush with embarrassment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    This highlighted doesn't add up becasue

    1) why give some people an advantage

    Maybe because they are at a disadvantage and need it more than others.

    2) why not just make thomas different

    Thomas was an individual who had his own traits, some were weak and some were strong. Why make everyone the same?

    3) tangible proof - no need for faith

    Jesus provided tangible proof all the time in the New Testament but still they had to have faith. You make the mistake that most people make about faith. When you think of faith you think of blind faith. That is not what is required. God left enough proof in order to have faith, faith being defined as trust, not just blindly believing that He exists. It is a lifestyle.
    .


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya


    Oh I know that it can't explain the origin of the universe or why the constants that make it possible for life to exist were right there in the initial conditions of the big bang

    If the constants were different there would be a different form of life, breathing nitrogen, based on silicon etc (some of them would probably believe that the fact that they exist and are silicon-based proves there is a God). Yawn.
    If it is a fake then the faker was genius who would cause Da Vinci adn Michaelangelo t blush with embarrassment.

    Why fake? Just a piece of art referring to the act of crucification. Technology not yet established but honestly there are loads of ancient art objects people have no clue how to reproduce or imitate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    This should be removed immediatly from church property before it turnes itself into a cult.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0710/1224250387596.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Its ridiculous. Its a tree stump.

    Maybe the church should put it up for sale on eBay and it could go to a good home in Las Vegas beside the ham sandwich or pickle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Religious people who dismiss this as nonsense might like to think a bit about the "signs" they take to mean their religion is real and how different or similar those signs are to this.

    IMO this has very little to do with religion and faith, and more to do with superstition, particularly evident in certain groups in our society who are prevalent around Rathkeale.
    herya wrote: »
    It's most likely some kind of relief imprinted on the fabric with some unknown technology.

    Unknown technology :rolleyes: Now you're starting to sound like an episode of Stargate ;)
    This should be removed immediatly from church property before it turnes itself into a cult

    You mean before some clowns from Dublin go down with a hammer and chisel and destroy it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    prinz wrote: »
    IMO this has very little to do with religion and faith, and more to do with superstition, .

    Too right
    You mean before some clowns from Dublin go down with a hammer and chisel and destroy it?

    Going a bit off topic here.

    There was a giant redwood in Phoenix Park which exploded cartoon style a few years back.Truly amazing.

    It was given to some artist as material for a sculpture and he carved a ball. Redwoods are filled with water so it was truly awesome and its timber doesnt rot as its fibres are so dense and it had taken 3 or 400 years to grow so it wouldnt rot. Mindless vandalism.

    Maybe the lumberjack is a fraustrated artist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    CDfm wrote: »
    It was given to some artist as material for a sculpture and he carved a ball. Redwoods are filled with water so it was truly awesome and its timber doesnt rot as its fibres are so dense and it had taken 3 or 400 years to grow so it wouldnt rot. Mindless vandalism.

    Maybe the lumberjack is a fraustrated artist.


    I was referring more to the yahoos who attacked the statues at Ballinspittle "for religious reasons", for fear people were pracitising idolotry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    prinz wrote: »
    I was referring more to the yahoos who attacked the statues at Ballinspittle "for religious reasons", for fear people were pracitising idolotry.

    Thes things happen. The lunatic fringe and you dont need it. Many people go to see these things not for any religious motive but curiousity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    It looks like with a bit of work it could make a nice chair ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    CDfm wrote: »
    Thes things happen. The lunatic fringe and you dont need it. Many people go to see these things not for any religious motive but curiousity.

    Maybe somebody in the tourism industry down there had an epiphany and decided to carve up a tree. Good ingenuity.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 718 ✭✭✭stmol32


    There's a very interesting quote from one of the people keeping vigil in todays times article.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0710/1224250387596.html


    “My eyes are showing me what my heart wants to see,” said pensioner Annie O’Reilly who was leading prayers yesterday morning.

    I know she didn't mean to but she's pretty much illustrated the skeptics point beautifully.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    I suppose praying around a tree stump is harmless tbh especially when you conisder what people could be getting up to

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0710/breaking28.htm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 718 ✭✭✭stmol32


    "Down with this sort of thing"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    must be the virgin mary on the tree stump a white christian--wait a minute shouldent she look like a jewish arab ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    getz wrote: »
    must be the virgin mary on the tree stump a white christian--wait a minute shouldent she look like a jewish arab ?


    Mate, if you can make out the ethnicity of a tree stump more power to you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    i know its got me stumped


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    If it is genuine then I fail to see how you would regard it as cryptic. The image fits perfectly with the narrative of the scourging, the crown of thorns, the pierced side and nail marks in the hands in the New Testament. Maybe God forsaw the need in certain individuals like Thomas who need tangible evidence for His existence in order to have faith in Him, and that He provided that for them in the shroud. Of course not everyone will believe it is genuine and not every believer needs it in order to have faith but it just might be the thing that will tip the scale for certain people into believing in Him, especially the scientific types.

    Reminds me of a cartoon I once saw. Jesus is up in heaven saying to himself: "There's so much suffering the world. How can I show people I care about them?"

    Then it cuts to a newspaper with the headline "Jesus appears in toasted cheese sandwich" :D


    Bottom line, if God put that pattern in the shrowd to provide tangible evidence of his existence then he failed quite badly. Billions of old pieces of cloth have patterns in them and one of them happens to resemble a person (assuming it wasn't put there deliberately). Big whoop


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    prinz wrote: »
    I suppose praying around a tree stump is harmless tbh especially when you conisder what people could be getting up to

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0710/breaking28.htm


    Just 'cos they're from Limerick, doesn't mean they would be off beheading people if they weren't praying around the tree stump.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭bokspring71


    ... Every other test that was done shows it to be a genuine cloth from Palestine around the time of Jesus, so if its not Him then who is it? ....

    Oh dear.

    Even if it were ( which is questionable) a cloth from around the time of jesus, you seem to infer that thats enough evidence for us all to believe that therefore the image which we see must be jesus. What does "around the time of jesus" mean? How do we know the age of the image is contemporary with the cloth and not made in the 1600's? How do we know who the "image" is? We simply don't know and you don't say either.

    We have no idea what jesus looked like as there are no paintings or likenesses of him takes when he was alive and handed down to us. Just as we have no images as to what the bvm looked like either.

    How anyone can claim to have seen her likeness ( when no one knows what she looked like) in a tree stump, is beyond comprehension, and worthy of another episode of Father Ted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm



    We have no idea what jesus looked like as there are no paintings or likenesses of him takes when he was alive and handed down to us. Just as we have no images as to what the bvm looked like either.

    Oh dear - why so pedantic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    dvpower wrote: »
    Just 'cos they're from Limerick, doesn't mean they would be off beheading people if they weren't praying around the tree stump.

    :pac: are ya shur abut dat der boss? I meant "religious" people, not shannon-siders. I love Limerick me.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    They worship a lump of bark today, come Sunday they'll be praying to and worshipping lumps of stone in their church.

    Whats the difference?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭bokspring71


    CDfm wrote: »
    Oh dear - why so pedantic.

    Because I dislike sloppy thinking.

    If someone wants to believe this is the image of the BVM in a tree stump, they should go right ahead and believe it.

    For the rest of us, we require a little more evidence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Because I dislike sloppy thinking.
    If someone wants to believe this is the image of the BVM in a tree stump, they should go right ahead and believe it.
    For the rest of us, we require a little more evidence.


    So why are you questioning it :confused: Each to their own, so what's your interest in anything?

    I love that about some of the "atheists" on boards, they show much more interest in all these things than most of the faithful do tbh. I have 0 interest in aliens and UFO's so why would I spend my time looking for evidence etc...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    I saw some documentary about this. thats supposed to be some crusader i think.

    It's 2000 years old, that would be a seriously early crusader!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    stmol32 wrote: »


    “My eyes are showing me what my heart wants to see,” said pensioner Annie O’Reilly who was leading prayers yesterday morning.

    I know she didn't mean to but she's pretty much illustrated the skeptics point beautifully.

    Why wouldnt she mean exactly what she said?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭herya




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Because I dislike sloppy thinking.

    For the rest of us, we require a little more evidence.

    "A Man who has been brought up among Books, and is able to talk of nothing else, is what we call a Pedant. But, methinks, we should enlarge the Title, and give it to every one that does not know how to think out of his Profession and particular way of Life."Joseph Addison, Spectator 1711


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭Overblood


    Can you explain how this image got onto this cloth? Because nobody else can, not even the best forensic scientists in the world can explain how this image was formed.

    TheShroudofTurin.jpg

    So nobody can explain how the image got onto the cloth. How does that mean that it's jesus' image?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    prinz wrote: »


    You mean before some clowns from Dublin go down with a hammer and chisel and destroy it?
    Proper order, thats exactly what happened to the statue in Ballenspittal which put an end to all the nonsense at the time. The Catholic Church should do its part by removing it iimmediatly, if not they are only cheer leading the problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    There aren't enough :rolleyes: emoticons to express my feelings about this latest 'vision'. Be it the Turin Shroud, bits of the cross, Mary's House, whatever. Not even getting into the nonsense of this latest 'vision', but these things actually 'Don't matter'.


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