Running and weights

greenplain

Hi,


Just a quick one, in addition to training for the DCM. I am doing weight training 4/5 week mostly for the leg muscles mainly just to try and not get injured (again) this year. My question is when doing the weights am i better off doing light weights with high reps or heavy weight with low reps ?

greenplain

Can this be moved to the main forum.....my mistake

RJM22

I don't know what you want to do but you should be really careful about the assumption you havedoing weights.

If you're doing a marathon adding mass could be suicide. If you want to get stronger, I would concentrate on your core first and do some very good research to make sure what you're about to do is actually beneficial.

ecoli

Muscle weighs more than fat doing that much weights training for a marathon would be ill advised in my opinion.
Agree with the concept of core rather than weights to combat injury

Running Bing

greenplain wrote: »

Hi,


Just a quick one, in addition to training for the DCM. I am doing weight training 4/5 week mostly for the leg muscles mainly just to try and not get injured (again) this year. My question is when doing the weights am i better off doing light weights with high reps or heavy weight with low reps ?

Are you doing the weights solely for the running? That seems like absolute madness to me.

Run on grass/softer surfaces, get fitted for the right shoes, introduce everything gradually, listen to your body, cut back at the first sign of injury and dont be afraid to take time off.

If your an experienced weight lifter doing it for other reasons well then thats different.

RJM22

you probably need to tell us more info but,

try looking at this : bearpowered.com

a rock solid core, powerful hammers and plyometric training will probably make it easier that strapping on some pretty heavy pecs to your torso!

greenplain

Ok, here is a bit of background, running for years now, this is my second marathon, have the correct runners (nimbus 10's love them). The weights session that I am doing is only about ten minutes in total and I am only doing it cause my physio told me to do so just to build up my hamstrings and also my calves, he said this would aid me in not getting injured while training for the marathon. So I take it that the physio is talking through his ass !!!

RJM22

eh yeah well it depends .... firstly stay away from all machines - that includes the leg curl!

what you want to be doing is olympic lifts - if it's calfs and hamstrings then look at cleans and dead lifts. Free weights are better than machines because the range of movement isn't constrained. Now as for your original question I'm not sure how many reps u should do because I'm a sprinter but be careful to research whatever the status quo is (probably light weight / high reps) as this might not actually be what you need. Either way stay out of the 8 rep range as this is body builder territory and remember that muscle doesn't always equal strength.....again strong core will help you to lift more.

A stronger core will help you keep your posture when u run and let your feet strike a sweeter, more powerful spot.

ecoli

greenplain wrote: »

Ok, here is a bit of background, running for years now, this is my second marathon, have the correct runners (nimbus 10's love them). The weights session that I am doing is only about ten minutes in total and I am only doing it cause my physio told me to do so just to build up my hamstrings and also my calves, he said this would aid me in not getting injured while training for the marathon. So I take it that the physio is talking through his ass !!!

Well i wouldnt say that for all we know your weight sessions could actually be working on your core. For these weight sessions if you are to continue i will answer your question lighter wights with more reps as you not doin in for mass building which would be counter productive to running however light stuff can compliment your running training

TheRoadRunner

RJM22 wrote: »

A stronger core will help you keep your posture when u run and let your feet strike a sweeter, more powerful spot.

Not directed at you RJM22 directly so please take no offence but I'm going to be an ar$ehole.

I have a pain in my neck listening to people talking about core work as if it's the be all and end all.

Firstly what is the core ? Is this good old fashioned sit ups, press ups, trunk lifts. Basically sounds like circuit training rebranded to me.

While I'm on a rant, what's the craic with dynamic stretching. Hmmmmm, me thinks another rebranding of basic drills every child I ran with use to do in the 1980s.

greenplain

Thanks lads for the input, I'll going to do the light weights for the hams etc, I will also start doing some work for my core..It could use some!

RealistSpy

Depends on your season. Off season you do light weight and core work, in season you do heavy weights.

RJM22

roadrunner, your loss I guess. Your core is where every action your body makes starts at. The tem is used to describe the muscles that act on your spine - your abdominals and your lower back.

Dynamic is the opposite of static - dynamic before / static afterwards...not bothered explaining that one to you.

Reality spy - surely you mean the opposite?

luck greenplain!

RealistSpy

To be specific, light weights+ more reps and heavy weights+light reps.

ecoli

RealistSpy wrote: »

Depends on your season. Off season you do light weight and core work, in season you do heavy weights.

This guy is training for a marathon while this would me conducive to a sprint schedule it wouldnt be beneficial to a marathon runner

RacoonQueen

As a runner your emphasis when doing leg weights should not necessarily be on on the quads, hamstrings and calves. The muscles you don't work in running you adductors and the abduction muscles(glutes etc) are the ones you should concentrate on if you're doing lower body weights. If you have to do hamstring work generally you should be doing about 3 -5 sets of 15 -20 reps. First set should be easy just about feeling it towards the end then the second set will feel tougher, third set the last few reps will be agony. Short rests between sets, remember you're training mostly for endurance, a longer rest between sets will allow glycogen to build up in the muscles again. I do a lot of upper body work when I'm lifting weights and a lot of core work in the gym. Lifting weights does NOT have to add bulk, if you do it right you can regularly do weight training to benefit your running, improve your strength, improve your endurance and reduce your risk of injury.

thirtyfoot

greenplain wrote: »

Ok, here is a bit of background, running for years now, this is my second marathon, have the correct runners (nimbus 10's love them). The weights session that I am doing is only about ten minutes in total and I am only doing it cause my physio told me to do so just to build up my hamstrings and also my calves, he said this would aid me in not getting injured while training for the marathon. So I take it that the physio is talking through his ass !!!

Your physio is possibly on the ball. They are a professional who has seen you, seen problems you have and advised a rehab or prehab programme. We here are punters, who have never seen you and have little or no experience in rehab programs.

10 minute session is not much and won't restrict your running. Most marathon runners are a mess when it comes to their overall body condition and are very weak. Nothing wrong with being an all-round athlete and being generally strong as long as you still get in your level of required running.

Did your physio not suggest intensity of weights or types or exercise?

Running Bing

greenplain wrote: »

Ok, here is a bit of background, running for years now, this is my second marathon, have the correct runners (nimbus 10's love them). The weights session that I am doing is only about ten minutes in total and I am only doing it cause my physio told me to do so just to build up my hamstrings and also my calves, he said this would aid me in not getting injured while training for the marathon. So I take it that the physio is talking through his ass !!!

Discount everything I said in that case:cool:

thirtyfoot

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I have a pain in my neck listening to people talking about core work as if it's the be all and end all.

You come try some lat pulldowns to work on general strength and flexibility in that neck/shoulder/back area:D

Just because something has been fancily rebranded doesn't mean its wrong. Kettlebells are regarded by some as some great new invention. Others mock this and say 'what you on about, kettlebells have been around for years, they are just fashionable again". Does this mean kettlebells are crap? No, it doesn't.

I'd call it all over body conditioning instead of core. Ignore all over body conditioning and you are asking for trouble. I would go as far to say that when it comes to staying fit and strong and being able to race and train as much as you want, that all over body conditioning is pretty close to being the be all and end all.

I used to ignore weights and strength work because I was intimidated by going into the gym because I was as weak as sh*t. I'm still as weak as sh*t compared to regular gym goers but I now have addressed most of the muscles imbalances and weaknesses in my body. Ignore weights/core/s&c/all over body conditioning or whatever you want to call it at your peril.

On dynamic stretching, do you mean dynamic warmups altogether or just specifically dynamic stretching?

RJM22

I think he's refering to the fact that everyone's advocating a dynamic warmup again compared to 10 years ago when it was static stretching.

Gowan tell us your joke Tingle!

thirtyfoot

RJM22 wrote: »

I think he's refering to the fact that everyone's advocating a dynamic warmup again compared to 10 years ago when it was static stretching.

Gowan tell us your joke Tingle!

Its the one about the lat pulldowns maybe helping with his neck pain. As I said, not very funny, shouldn't have bothered:o. Lat pulldowns probably wouldn't help, would they.

RJM22

:rolleyes:

Stupid_Private

I love how contradictary everyones opinions can get on something like weights - do them, don't do them, you'll just get all big an muscley,....

If you got injured before and the physio has you on a ten minute routine then go with it. He knows more than us.

I've gone through a stage where I had to strenghten my quads - 3 times a week for a few months, probably no more than 5 to 10 minutes at a go. If I had a gym as close to me now as I did then I'd probably still do them as the results were brilliant.

One thing I was told by my coach at the time - physio recommended weights - was to stay away from free weights. His logic was that squats with a free weight would lead to injury - so all my weight training was done on the leg extention machine (is that what its called? the one where you sit down with your legs bent and extend them out).

Racing Flat

Very little is known for sure in this whole area and most of what we do know is based on anecdote.

What is known is that eccentrric loading exercises have a positive rehabilitative effect on overuse conditions such as Achilles tendinopathy which would be common in runners due to the frequent, repetitive loading inherent to long distance running.

So if one was to spend time on supplementary work, eccentric loading exercises primarily for the lower limb muscles/tendons is what I'd recommend. These are simply things like squats, single leg squats, lunges, deadlifts, nothing fancy. Depending on your point of view or background, you might refer to these as eccentric exercises, dynamic stretches or plyometrics. You will probably also see them in Yoga, Pilates and circut training classes, and probably did them in PE and at football training when younger. But those with a vested interest like to repackage these things. If done with correct posture (as they should be done) you will also be engaging your 'core' muscles (no need to do seperate 'core' work which has been shown not to transfer across to functional activities anyhow).

RJM22

then put abox under your squat and get a spotter - the reason i said cleans and dead lifts is coz u don't need a squat rack or spotter....ARRRHHHHH! :cool:

Racing Flat

Stupid_Private wrote: »

so all my weight training was done on the leg extention machine (is that what its called? the one where you sit down with your legs bent and extend them out).

Probably not ideal. 1) the forces going through the knee joint itself during this exercise are quite large and may have detrimental effects on knee cartilage. 2) these are open chain exercises, ie the knee is relatively fixed while the foot is moving. So working the knee in this way might not transfer across to strength gains needed for injury prevention in running, i.e. that exercise may not be specific enough to your running needs, and specificity of training is fairly important.

another world

Low weight and high reps (anything over 10 should be fine).

I don´t see any problems with increasing your overall strenght, although you shouldn´t be feeling too tired after the sessions, otherwise it could be detrimental to your running sessions.

TheRoadRunner

Tingle wrote: »

You come try some lat pulldowns to work on general strength and flexibility in that neck/shoulder/back area:D

I was expecting a comment like this

Tingle wrote: »

Just because something has been fancily rebranded doesn't mean its wrong. Kettlebells are regarded by some as some great new invention. Others mock this and say 'what you on about, kettlebells have been around for years, they are just fashionable again". Does this mean kettlebells are crap? No, it doesn't.

I wasn't suggesting "core" work was crap. I just hate when people take a simple strengthening program and call it something else in an attempt to confuse us all.
I can recall the first time I heard the term core, and once I heard it every dog on the street was talking about his core. The first time I came across it was on the box of a swiss ball. I'm blaming the swiss ball manufacturers for this core bull. It was around 2002 by the way so if anybody can find me any literature pertaining to the "core" predating this I will readdress my anger from the swiss ball muppets to whoever

RJM22 wrote: »

I think he's refering to the fact that everyone's advocating a dynamic warmup again compared to 10 years ago when it was static stretching.

No I'm not. I have always done dynamic stretching since the age of 10. It just wasn't called dynamic stretching.

Listen lads I don't give a hoot what you call it. You can all work on your core. I'll pound the miles and do my weekly circuit training and usual conditioning. I'm just on a rant.

ss43

ecoli wrote: »

Well i wouldnt say that for all we know your weight sessions could actually be working on your core. For these weight sessions if you are to continue i will answer your question lighter wights with more reps as you not doin in for mass building which would be counter productive to running however light stuff can compliment your running training

another world wrote: »

Low weight and high reps (anything over 10 should be fine).

I don´t see any problems with increasing your overall strenght, although you shouldn´t be feeling too tired after the sessions, otherwise it could be detrimental to your running sessions.

RacoonQueen wrote: »

As a runner your emphasis when doing leg weights should not necessarily be on on the quads, hamstrings and calves. The muscles you don't work in running you adductors and the abduction muscles(glutes etc) are the ones you should concentrate on if you're doing lower body weights. If you have to do hamstring work generally you should be doing about 3 -5 sets of 15 -20 reps. First set should be easy just about feeling it towards the end then the second set will feel tougher, third set the last few reps will be agony. Short rests between sets, remember you're training mostly for endurance, a longer rest between sets will allow glycogen to build up in the muscles again. I do a lot of upper body work when I'm lifting weights and a lot of core work in the gym. Lifting weights does NOT have to add bulk, if you do it right you can regularly do weight training to benefit your running, improve your strength, improve your endurance and reduce your risk of injury.

There's been a few recommendations of low weight and high rep exercises. Would this not just be to build endurance? Would running not do this? I would have thought the need for weights in distance runners was to build strength. Running training takes care of the endurance side of things.

Poncherello

RacoonQueen wrote: »

As a runner your emphasis when doing leg weights should not necessarily be on on the quads, hamstrings and calves. The muscles you don't work in running you adductors and the abduction muscles(glutes etc) are the ones you should concentrate on if you're doing lower body weights. If you have to do hamstring work generally you should be doing about 3 -5 sets of 15 -20 reps. First set should be easy just about feeling it towards the end then the second set will feel tougher, third set the last few reps will be agony. Short rests between sets, remember you're training mostly for endurance, a longer rest between sets will allow glycogen to build up in the muscles again. I do a lot of upper body work when I'm lifting weights and a lot of core work in the gym. Lifting weights does NOT have to add bulk, if you do it right you can regularly do weight training to benefit your running, improve your strength, improve your endurance and reduce your risk of injury.

Agree

But I would include sets of squats. Starting off with the heaviest weight that you can do 20 reps with. Then drop the weight by say 10Kg and do another 20. Drop weight again and do a 3rd set. Take very short breaks between sets 15 secs maybe. You will be destroyed after it but great workout and really strengthens the knees/legs. Also helps to rebuild the muscle that you are burning during your training.
Dont run the day after

ss43

Poncherello wrote: »

Agree

But I would include sets of squats. Starting off with the heaviest weight that you can do 20 reps with. Then drop the weight by say 10Kg and do another 20. Drop weight again and do a 3rd set. Take very short breaks between sets 15 secs maybe. You will be destroyed after it but great workout and really strengthens the knees/legs. Also helps to rebuild the muscle that you are burning during your training.
Dont run the day after

How much muscle do you burn in training???

Racing Flat

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I can recall the first time I heard the term core, and once I heard it every dog on the street was talking about his core. The first time I came across it was on the box of a swiss ball. I'm blaming the swiss ball manufacturers for this core bull. It was around 2002 by the way so if anybody can find me any literature pertaining to the "core" predating this I will readdress my anger from the swiss ball muppets to whoever

Josef Pilates was around in the 30s I think when he came up with his exercises, but don't know what he termed them at the time. And Yoga afficionados will probably argue that their founders have been practising 'centreing' exercises for thousands of years. In rehabilitation there would be literature from the early 80s with people putting forward theories that increasing activity of the 'core' muscles might increase support of the spine. From there people started to look at these exercises as a means of prevention or treatment for back pain in the 90s. The thing is the aim was to increase the activity of these muscles - to get them working more often as endurance/postural muscles as opposed to strengthening them - the key was to get these muscles working as they should, i.e. to stabilise the spine. So they were referred to as stabilising exercises (as opposed to strengthening, big difference) and rather than referring to the specific muscles by their Latin names, not to mention the fact that there's a handful of different ones, somebody must have coined the phrase core muscles for the sake of brevity, and then people referred to the exercises as core stability exercises. It was probably at this point that gyms started to take an interest, after which the gymball people also took their oppurtunity. Note it's a gymball, not necessarily a swiss ball . But I too finds the word 'core' hard to stomach (no pun intended) and hence have to use ' '.

ss43 wrote: »

I would have thought the need for weights in distance runners was to build strength.

Building strength if done in such a way involving recruitment of Type 2B muscle fibres could possibly be a waste of time or maybe even counterproductive for marathon runners who would predominantly use Type 1 fibres. But I suppose no matter how far you run, you might always need a sprint finish, whereby your Type 2B fibres might be called into action. But I'm not too sure how beneficial weights would be, as you said running might be better. Also, the 400m runners don't seem to do any endurance training - I think Tingle said before that his longest run last year was 600m and he only did 15 of them in the whole year. So maybe they're a step ahead of us sloggers in terms of specificity of training.

tergat

greenplain wrote: »

Hi,


Just a quick one, in addition to training for the DCM. I am doing weight training 4/5 week mostly for the leg muscles mainly just to try and not get injured (again) this year. My question is when doing the weights am i better off doing light weights with high reps or heavy weight with low reps ?

greenplain,

I have mentioned this on here before but I believe most runners are stuck on plateaus because they lack leg strength and power. They work and work and work on intervals and tempos and race-pace or faster than race-pace, but they don't move off a plateau; until they do hill reps, which improve power output.

I would use hills rather than weight training and plyometrics, its more specific to the marathon. I'd rather you run hill reps, after tempo runs, to develop specific running strength. My experience reveals hill reps are the very best (first) choice to improve specific leg strength for running and overall capacity to sprint. Lydiard was on the ball here.

Run more hills! Your legs will become stronger and you'll naturally have more push-off. Once leg strength raises from short hill running, all running becomes easier; on the hills and on the flats. Later, longer hill reps can be used. By the way, I don't think running long hills works well until your legs are strong.

My point is, leg power is one thing that holds runners back from hitting a new performance level; often. There is no reason to isolate hill work. You can integrate hill reps during the middle of your racing season if you need more leg strength. The only thing I recommend is not doing hills in the last 4-6 days prior to a big race. The last hill workout should be about 10-12 days before an important race. The reason; it takes several days to recover. I figure the effects of strength training or hill work, which is specific strength training, takes about 10 days to acquire.

I recommend that you do a twice weekly hill workout (3-4 days apart) (shown below) for 6 weeks to develop your running strength:

2 miles warm up, 30 minutes of controlled Tempo running + 100m hill reps at a strong effort (about 1500m race effort). Start with 3-4 hills and add 1-2 per week until you hit 8. Run 2 miles warm down, including 4, building to 6 x 60m quick strides (about 800m speed) (jog 100m between each).

Order of workout:

a) 2 miles warm up (or about 15 minutes);

b) 30 minutes at Tempo effort (current 5km pace per km + 45-50 secs)

c) immediately after the 30 minutes Tempo, run 100m hill reps:

Hill reps probably should start at about 3k to 1500m race effort
and progress to about 800m effort as you become tired.

* The recovery for 100m hill reps is a slow jog down the hill - slow enough to prevent your shins from taking a beating. Immediatly after reaching the bottom of the hill, run right up the hill again.

d) 2 miles or 15 minutes warm down, including some 60m quick strides, as previously stated.

Also do your long runs on hills.

Tergat

RJM22

Racing Flat wrote: »

Also, the 400m runners don't seem to do any endurance training - I think Tingle said before that his longest run last year was 600m and he only did 15 of them in the whole year. So maybe they're a step ahead of us sloggers in terms of specificity of training.

I'm in Base building phase of 400m training at the moment and that isn't true for all 400m runners. There are two types of 400m runner: anaerobic background (200m) or aerobic background (800m). I did a 24 min run today and have 3x800m on sunday, and I'm coming from a 200m background. Look at my log if you're interested.

TheRoadRunner

Racing Flat wrote: »

Note it's a gymball, not necessarily a swiss ball .

Are you suggesting this is even more rebranding ?

Racing Flat

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Are you suggesting this is even more rebranding ?

More a case of it's a vacuum cleaner, not a hoover.:)

Slogger Jogger

tergat wrote: »

greenplain,

I have mentioned this on here before but I believe most runners are stuck on plateaus because they lack leg strength and power. They work and work and work on intervals and tempos and race-pace or faster than race-pace, but they don't move off a plateau; until they do hill reps, which improve power output.

I would use hills rather than weight training and plyometrics, its more specific to the marathon. I'd rather you run hill reps, after tempo runs, to develop specific running strength. My experience reveals hill reps are the very best (first) choice to improve specific leg strength for running and overall capacity to sprint. Lydiard was on the ball here.

Run more hills! Your legs will become stronger and you'll naturally have more push-off. Once leg strength raises from short hill running, all running becomes easier; on the hills and on the flats. Later, longer hill reps can be used. By the way, I don't think running long hills works well until your legs are strong.

My point is, leg power is one thing that holds runners back from hitting a new performance level; often. There is no reason to isolate hill work. You can integrate hill reps during the middle of your racing season if you need more leg strength. The only thing I recommend is not doing hills in the last 4-6 days prior to a big race. The last hill workout should be about 10-12 days before an important race. The reason; it takes several days to recover. I figure the effects of strength training or hill work, which is specific strength training, takes about 10 days to acquire.

I recommend that you do a twice weekly hill workout (3-4 days apart) (shown below) for 6 weeks to develop your running strength:

2 miles warm up, 30 minutes of controlled Tempo running + 100m hill reps at a strong effort (about 1500m race effort). Start with 3-4 hills and add 1-2 per week until you hit 8. Run 2 miles warm down, including 4, building to 6 x 60m quick strides (about 800m speed) (jog 100m between each).

Order of workout:

a) 2 miles warm up (or about 15 minutes);

b) 30 minutes at Tempo effort (current 5km pace per km + 45-50 secs)

c) immediately after the 30 minutes Tempo, run 100m hill reps:

Hill reps probably should start at about 3k to 1500m race effort
and progress to about 800m effort as you become tired.

* The recovery for 100m hill reps is a slow jog down the hill - slow enough to prevent your shins from taking a beating. Immediatly after reaching the bottom of the hill, run right up the hill again.

d) 2 miles or 15 minutes warm down, including some 60m quick strides, as previously stated.

Also do your long runs on hills.

Tergat

I'm glad I leave in the hills so. Forest trail next to house so I can do short or longer hill loops or reps to beat the band and long runs out the backroads with hills, hills and more hills. Oh yeah, theres hill races too with imra which I quite like. I've never been one for weights and my weedy arms tell the tell of a no. of years running. My task now is to try to incorporate the good advice from yourself Tergat into a program for the Dublin marathon. Cheers.

Quacksalber

Hmm I've been wondering about this myself lately. I'm (theoretically) doing the marathon this year though am a bit behind on training. I did 8.5k or so yesterday (having done the same the day before). I pushed it a little more than usual but really felt tired at the end. The thing is - my mind was willing to go, the body was just unwilling to cooperate - the legs really just felt ....weak. Upper body was good and I put that down to the upper body weight training I do about once a week, but I really feel that if I had been doing some sort of lower body weights I would have had a bit more zip in the legs. Today I feel totally knackered - particularly the right leg (I really think weights might help address this natural imbalance as it has done with my injured shoulder - the reason I do the upper body weights to being with).

Interesting tip about the hill work. Hmmmm where to find some hills - I suppose a treadmill on incline might work. Even so, I think I'll add in once a week lower body weight training.

RacoonQueen

Racing Flat wrote: »

Note it's a gymball, not necessarily a swiss ball

I tend to call it a stability ball.:p

Quacksalber

I usually just go with 'ball thingy'

bo-sco

tergat wrote: »

greenplain,

I have mentioned this on here before but I believe most runners are stuck on plateaus because they lack leg strength and power. They work and work and work on intervals and tempos and race-pace or faster than race-pace, but they don't move off a plateau; until they do hill reps, which improve power output.

I would use hills rather than weight training and plyometrics, its more specific to the marathon. I'd rather you run hill reps, after tempo runs, to develop specific running strength. My experience reveals hill reps are the very best (first) choice to improve specific leg strength for running and overall capacity to sprint. Lydiard was on the ball here.

Run more hills! Your legs will become stronger and you'll naturally have more push-off. Once leg strength raises from short hill running, all running becomes easier; on the hills and on the flats. Later, longer hill reps can be used. By the way, I don't think running long hills works well until your legs are strong.

My point is, leg power is one thing that holds runners back from hitting a new performance level; often. There is no reason to isolate hill work. You can integrate hill reps during the middle of your racing season if you need more leg strength. The only thing I recommend is not doing hills in the last 4-6 days prior to a big race. The last hill workout should be about 10-12 days before an important race. The reason; it takes several days to recover. I figure the effects of strength training or hill work, which is specific strength training, takes about 10 days to acquire.

I recommend that you do a twice weekly hill workout (3-4 days apart) (shown below) for 6 weeks to develop your running strength:

2 miles warm up, 30 minutes of controlled Tempo running + 100m hill reps at a strong effort (about 1500m race effort). Start with 3-4 hills and add 1-2 per week until you hit 8. Run 2 miles warm down, including 4, building to 6 x 60m quick strides (about 800m speed) (jog 100m between each).

Order of workout:

a) 2 miles warm up (or about 15 minutes);

b) 30 minutes at Tempo effort (current 5km pace per km + 45-50 secs)

c) immediately after the 30 minutes Tempo, run 100m hill reps:

Hill reps probably should start at about 3k to 1500m race effort
and progress to about 800m effort as you become tired.

* The recovery for 100m hill reps is a slow jog down the hill - slow enough to prevent your shins from taking a beating. Immediatly after reaching the bottom of the hill, run right up the hill again.

d) 2 miles or 15 minutes warm down, including some 60m quick strides, as previously stated.

Also do your long runs on hills.

Tergat

Hi tergat
Is current 5km pace per km + 45-50 secs not a little slow?
I would currently run what I call tempo much quicker than this - probably 5km pace per km + 30 secs.

Is the idea to run a bit slower to leave something for the hills?

Cartman78

Interesting thread. As a previous poster mentioned everyone seems to have their own unshakeable opinions on the subject.

Anyway, remember reading somewhere (vague I know, but it was prob Runners World or similar) about the benefits of tricep and bicep weight training for arm swing during running to increase momentum, and also chest exercises to increase the size of the chest cavity, air intake etc.

I do 2-3 sets of high rep/low weight arm & chest exercises (push ups & bench) about 3 times a week, along with various 'core strength/stability and lower back exercises. Generally feel a lot stronger in races now and no longer look like a skeleton with hair like I did in my first 2-3 years of proper distance running

tergat

bo-sco wrote: »

Hi tergat
Is current 5km pace per km + 45-50 secs not a little slow?
I would currently run what I call tempo much quicker than this - probably 5km pace per km + 30 secs.

Is the idea to run a bit slower to leave something for the hills?

bo-sco,

The idea behind the pace is:

1) Because it is a longer tempo run anything from 4-10 miles depending on ability, pace is slower
2) As you said to leave some room for the hills afterwards also

Your pace would be about what I would call LT workout pace e.g. 3*10-15 mins with 2 mins jog rec OR maybe 20 mins continuos tempo. Longer tempos work better early season and shorter tempos later. Also longer tempos better suited for those running longer races 10km + and shorter tempos/LT work better suited to those racing shorter races 800m-8km.

Tergat

tunguska

Hi
Im just wondering if you guys weight train aswell as your regular running training? love weight training and I also love running but Ive noticed that ever since ive taken my running training up a notch the weights that I can lift have taken a nose-dive.
Can you weight train and run at a high level? Or will I have to choose one or the other?
Taks

thirtyfoot

tunguska wrote: »

Hi
Im just wondering if you guys weight train aswell as your regular running training? love weight training and I also love running but Ive noticed that ever since ive taken my running training up a notch the weights that I can lift have taken a nose-dive.
Can you weight train and run at a high level? Or will I have to choose one or the other?
Taks

You can do both once you have the time and you plan your time well.

I assume you mean distance running so it isn't as good a fit as say sprinting. But if you love doing both then there is no reason why you can't do both. As you are seeing your weights may suffer but once you are ok with that and are still happy just to do them at a lower intensity then its all good. Weights will be beneficial to your running too and will help keep problems at bay if you have a good rounded weights program.

I do weights 3 times a week and always after my running. Sometimes in the winter I'll be wrecked after the run but will recover fairly quick and then do my weights. My weights aren't as heavy as they might be if I did them fresh but I still get benefit and with my lifestyle its the only time I can fit them in.

RacoonQueen

There was a thread on this last week. I weight train regularly 3ish times a week, I try to keep running as my priority which is hard sometimes as I love being in the gym.

tunguska

RacoonQueen wrote: »

There was a thread on this last week. I weight train regularly 3ish times a week, I try to keep running as my priority which is hard sometimes as I love being in the gym.

Sorry mustve missed that thread..........I wonder if the top guys like Bekele weight train?

Running Bing

tunguska wrote: »

Sorry mustve missed that thread..........I wonder if the top guys like Bekele weight train?

Hicham El Guerrouj and Seb Coe did loads of weight training.

Im planing to start a weights programme in a couple of weeks just to up the strength a bit but running is my absolute priority. From doing a bit of research online it seems low reps (3-6) are the way to go to build strength without mass (I always thought it was the other way around).

meathcountysec

Running Bing wrote: »

From doing a bit of research online it seems low reps (3-6) are the way to go to build strength without mass (I always thought it was the other way around).

I had believed that low weight, high rep was the way to go. But, and don't tell the OH, I may be wrong;)

Running Bing

meathcountysec wrote: »

I had believed that low weight, high rep was the way to go. But, and don't tell the OH, I may be wrong;)

I think that increases muscular endurance meathcountysec and lots of people say weight training for this is not a very efficient use of time as the running training you do pretty much takes care of it.

Its the low reps that really build muscle strength which lots of runners would be lacking.


The classic 8-12 reps per set range is optimal for building muscle mass.

Thats what I have gleamed from some brief research online. Id love to hear the thoughs of somebody with more experience though, especially with respect to weight training for middle distance runners.

Peckham

I have a 45-min gym routine that was devised for me by a gym trainer with my running in mind. I like it and feel it's a good balance to my running on rest days as my leg work is just enough to loosen things out, but not overstrain them, and then a focus on upper body and core.

Most of the stuff is done as 2 x15 reps on what would best be described as medium weight, but am interested to hear that low reps could be more beneficial:

It goes something like this:
Legs
- Calf stretches
- Lunges (with weights)
- Squats (with weights)
Upper body
- Bicep curls
- Pullovers
- Triceps
- Shrugs
- Lats
Core
- Back raises
- Prone holds
- Russian twists
- Crunches
- Exercise ball between legs, raising legs up and down (ouch!)

Am not as disciplined as I should be. Twice a week on rest days is my objective.