RTE admits digital TV launch delay

The Cush

From todays Independent.ie

Independent.ie

RTE admits digital TV launch delay

IT's been widely whispered for months, but the director general of RTE has now publicly admitted that launching Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) in September is no longer a "reasonable" prospect.

When the consortium originally charged with rolling out the commercial arm of DTT walked away from the project in April, sources close to Communications Minister Eamon Ryan insisted the development would have no impact on RTE's plans to launch public service DTT in September. The position baffled many, who couldn't see how a new digital platform that had just the four public service stations could be a viable proposition for RTE, or for the consumer who'd have little enticement to switch.

At a briefing last week, RTE boss Cathal Goan confirmed it was his view that the new commercial player and RTE should "all jump together" into the new television frontier.

They won't be jumping in September. "[We aimed for September] in anticipation that whoever won [the commercial contract] was going to go live in September as well," he said. "Clearly that didn't happen.

"It wouldn't be reasonable to assume you could have both public service DTT and commercial DTT up and running in September."

At the same briefing, Mr Goan also confirmed that RTE's continued €300,000 annual investment in DAB digital radio was a "live question" being considered as part of cost cuts designed to combat a predicted €68m shortfall in the national broadcaster's 2009 revenue.

But he added that DAB's support would be viewed in light of the expense of establishing the platform, and the benefit to the public of the four extra radio stations that are available through DAB in the Greater Dublin area, the North East Coast and Cork and Limerick cities, as well as online and on NTL and Chorus Digital.

watty

The BCI and Government are THICK.

Since 1999 they have held RTE back on DTT. They need to admit that a PayTV operator isn't happening, and if it does it shouldn't as it is a waste of money and spectrum and will go bust.

Announce this month that DTT is going ahead with PBX mux only. A payTV operator is a pipe dream.

They should also close down DAB. It's pointless without 100% coverage and is extra expense with no value at present.

Mossy Monk

Yeah. They should launch the damn PSB mux and leave the commercial ****e to its own devices.

watty

watty wrote: »

The BCI and Government are THICK.

Since 1999 they have held RTE back on DTT. They need to admit that a PayTV operator isn't happening, and if it does it shouldn't as it is a waste of money and spectrum and will go bust.

Announce this month that DTT is going ahead with PBX mux only. A payTV operator is a pipe dream.

They should also close down DAB. It's pointless without 100% coverage and is extra expense with no value at present.

The government's/BCI's problems are Watty -
They are not members of boards.
They've never read this site apart from the odd glance.
They are content in their ivory towers.
They've no Grá for the subject.

marclt

Well... you'll never convert people if they can't access the service.

If they powered up DAB from Mt. Leinster - then they'd increase coverage dramatically, bringing in Waterford, and commuter routes between Dublin and Cork.

The extra radio services are being funded by licence payers countrywide. RTE should be making them available to the people from at least all of the main sites in the first instance. If RTE withdraw, they need a back up plan. It's time they started to talk tough with the BCI and the Govt over getting their act together on this.

watty

These are joke extra Radio services. Automation costing nearly nothing. At home people could get it at lower cost via Internet or Satellite.

Mt. Leinster isn't enough. Either you do a whole network with all the existing stations and proposed extra ones or else it's a fail. The current service makes no sense.

Either Really do National Digital Radio, or don't at all.

byrnefm

It really is annoying that they are (most-likely) postponing the launch of DTT - I lived in Ringsend for a few months and did not have cable. My apartment got really poor analogue TV (nearly unwatchable) but on the trial DTT signal, I got very watchable, clear TV.

They should be stressing that part of the point of DTT is that DTT can greatly improve your picture, especially in the countryside, where it is MUCH harder to find areas that have crystal clear RTÉ. And many don't get TV3 at present, which is also carried on DTT.

Oh well... Here's hoping one of them reads boards.ie soon :rolleyes:

mrdtv

Alas, as I predicted to some opposition, this is going to be 'long-grassed'. Again. Its all about short-term economics which are dire. The next step will be to shut down the test transmissions to save on operating costs and mothball the DTT transmitters.
Goan and Co at Donnybrook have four straight choices:

a) Stall for time.
b) Bite the bulllet and roll out the system
c) Shut it down and just focus on satellite and cable
d) Use the current UK MPEG2 system which is cheaper if technically inferior.

The logical least cost option is d).

However I predict that a) will be selected which has been the usual option in Ireland since 2001 and this will over time morph into c) through loss of customers and inertia.

watty

Actually that's pretty mythical (DTT vs analogue Rural).

At same power level there is not much difference. DTT won't be in the areas that don't have TV3 for quite a while.

An outdoor aerial will greatly improve picture in Rural areas and most Rural DTT reception will need outdoor aerial too.

c) Nothing to do with RTE, Cable & Satellite have Digital RTE already.
d) Saves RTE no money and costs them a lot more for backhaul. MPEG2 is actually nearly twice as expensive per channel for a broadcaster.

Mayo Exile

If the launch of the PSB Mux is put back, say a full year, what are the chances of the DVB-T2 standard being adopted, with transmissions in the UK due to start in December?

mrdtv

watty wrote: »

Actually that's pretty mythical (DTT vs analogue Rural).

At same power level there is not much difference. DTT won't be in the areas that don't have TV3 for quite a while.

An outdoor aerial will greatly improve picture in Rural areas and most Rural DTT reception will need outdoor aerial too.

c) Nothing to do with RTE, Cable & Satellite have Digital RTE already.
d) Saves RTE no money and costs them a lot more for backhaul. MPEG2 is actually nearly twice as expensive per channel for a broadcaster.

You are missing the point about overall business risk: that's what is clearly troubling them at Donnybrook. The least cost low risk option in these trading conditions is : do nothing.

The second least cost solution is to use the current MPEG2 system and UK receivers: in any networked system the cost of the receivers is the critical element, not transmission or backhaul !

These are a commodity in the UK at £15. This could be introduced in September 2009 with ZERO technical or commercial risk.

Only transmit one MUX in MPEG2, then switch to DVB-T2 if this is a success in the UK. There is no clear business model or commercial demand for anything else in Ireland at this time. (This is like a French DTT 2.0 strategy, use T1/MPEG2 and T2/MPEG4)

This kind of commercial pragmatism as opposed to technical perfection is sorely missing in the DTT strategy in Ireland: it has been engineering led rather than being commercially driven. Its failure is the gift that keeps on giving to Freesat, Sky and the forthcoming high power UK DTT transmissions which will inevitably materialise from Presely, Arfon, Divis, Limavady and Brougher which will also all be DVB-T2 stations with the same HRP patterns

As to DAB, its dead and buried. Poor codecs, no scale, poor error correction, high transmission costs, and no international economies of scale. When the Tories win the election in the UK it will be quietly buried there.

However I still think nothing is going to happen with Irish DTT as a) RTE have no money b) the economy is in dire straights c) there is no business plan for commercial DTT d) there is a lack of clear thinking in Government and regulatory circles e) its motivated by a desire to be seen to be different from the UK: 405 vs 625, System B vs System I, VHF vs UHF, MPEG2 vs MPEG4. A lot of previous there! There'll be more discussion for another eight years whereas what's really needed is either to ditch terrestrial altogether or line up the strategy with the UK in a low cost, low risk solution which recognises scale economies, consumer costs and can cash in on somebody else's HD strategy downrange. I think that RTE's next step will be to either a) pull the plug b) ask the Government for money or c) review their distribution options. This is the usual paralysis by analysis condition!

mrdtv

Mayo Exile wrote: »

If the launch of the PSB Mux is put back, say a full year, what are the chances of the DVB-T2 standard being adopted, with transmissions in the UK due to start in December?

Very good timings question!

This would make sense if a) only one mux was MPEG2: compatible with Northern Ireland straightaway, b) no further muxes were launched until T2 becomes widespread. Note that T2 will initially come on the UK PSB3 muxes which will have considerable overspill into Ireland as these are the old analogue allocations (see Presely and Divis for example...) This would be like an updated version of French TNT which started with MPEG2 and used MPEG4 for pay. The longer the delay the more likely T2 will eventually be used.

GerardKeating

mrdtv wrote: »

a) Stall for time.
b) Bite the bulllet and roll out the system
c) Shut it down and just focus on satellite and cable
d) Use the current UK MPEG2 system which is cheaper if technically inferior.

The logical least cost option is d).

However I predict that a) will be selected which has been the usual option in Ireland since 2001 and this will over time morph into c) through loss of customers and inertia.

Acutally D would bea very expenisive option, since they have msiotly already built and tested and MPEG-4 network.

Onikage

mrdtv wrote: »

You are missing the point about overall business risk: that's what is clearly troubling them at Donnybrook. The least cost low risk option in these trading conditions is : do nothing.

What business conditions? They are a public service broadcaster. If you own a tv, you are obliged to pay the tv license, their source of income.

mrdtv wrote: »

The second least cost solution is to use the current MPEG2 system and UK receivers: in any networked system the cost of the receivers is the critical element, not transmission or backhaul !

RTE don't pay for the receivers, which are a low one-off cost anyway. Transmission and backhaul are both expensive and recurring.

mrdtv wrote: »

These are a commodity in the UK at £15. This could be introduced in September 2009 with ZERO technical or commercial risk.

See last comment.

mrdtv wrote: »

Only transmit one MUX in MPEG2, then switch to DVB-T2 if this is a success in the UK. There is no clear business model or commercial demand for anything else in Ireland at this time. (This is like a French DTT 2.0 strategy, use T1/MPEG2 and T2/MPEG4)

Need to buy new, expensive transmission equipment. Already feeling the sting from having to buy the existing MPEG-4 equipment (which they thought would be part subsidised by a commercial partner)

mrdtv wrote: »

This kind of commercial pragmatism as opposed to technical perfection is sorely missing in the DTT strategy in Ireland: it has been engineering led rather than being commercially driven. Its failure is the gift that keeps on giving to Freesat, Sky and the forthcoming high power UK DTT transmissions which will inevitably materialise from Presely, Arfon, Divis, Limavady and Brougher which will also all be DVB-T2 stations with the same HRP patterns

Again, public service broadcaster. Not commercial.

mrdtv wrote: »

As to DAB, its dead and buried. Poor codecs, no scale, poor error correction, high transmission costs, and no international economies of scale. When the Tories win the election in the UK it will be quietly buried there.

Well, DAB is dead.

Parser

I'd say the next step is to stop the tests.
Pity, my Mvision HD combo just arrived today and the picture quality is superb.

byte

If we switched to DVB T2, that'd mean the ever growing number of MPEG4 tuner televisions coming into the country would also now be redundant.

I'd guess a lot of the new MPEG4 transmission gear already bought by RTÉ would be redundant too, before anything even gets launched!

Thinking of the commercial side, how much longer do OneVision have to mess about before they give a definitive Yes/No answer?

SRB

watty wrote: »

Actually that's pretty mythical (DTT vs analogue Rural).

At same power level there is not much difference. DTT won't be in the areas that don't have TV3 for quite a while.

An outdoor aerial will greatly improve picture in Rural areas and most Rural DTT reception will need outdoor aerial too.

Watty - don't know what power Kippure was putting out when it first launched but from Easter Sunday through to the first week of May, it was a putting a perfect DTT signal into Portaferry, Co Down.

Three Rock analogue is unwatchable there apart from "lift" conditions, but the DTT signal is present. Assuming the power levels will be higher than the analogue ones, then the public perception will be "much better pictures", which is a good selling point.

watty

The fact is the exist analogue network is very poor by European/UK standards and RTE have never admitted it.

I'm measuring almost 100x more power on DTT than Analogue here. Still need an outdoor aerial for reception.

watty

mrdtv wrote: »

The second least cost solution is to use the current MPEG2 system and UK receivers: in any networked system the cost of the receivers is the critical element, not transmission or backhaul !

Wrong!

Sky / Satellite proves that RTE perceives THEIR costs as the cost to the licence fee payer. MPEG2 would now almost double their costs.

In terms of ASO and public buying sets/Setbox, long before ASO, the MPEG4 will be the default in all receivers and is already heading toward a similar price.

reslfj

byte wrote: »

I'd guess a lot of the new MPEG4 transmission gear already bought by RTÉ would be redundant too, before anything even gets launched!

The MPEG-4 compression and stat-muxing has little or nothing to do with DVB-T2.

DVB-T2 also uses the same TX antennas and RF power amps.
Only the modulator module needs to change. There may be some changes in the signal distribution chain, too.


The real problem is timing and cost for consumers -

• Can the DVB-T2 receivers be ready in time?
• At what cost in 2009, 2010, 2011....?
• How much older equipment can no longer be used?

In a few months we will know much more, when the first UK FreeviewHD equipment reach the (UK)market.

Ireland will need models with a CI/CAM and not the UK FreeviewHD models, I guess.

Lars

scath

I wonder will Top-up TV go for T2 and MPEG4. You would think they would and then onevision could agree on set top boxes models with both logos for both markets. But Onevision of course have to sign off yet. I imagine RTE should have an answer by August from Onevision as if they say yes and sign then marketing budgets and promotion, Digital Ireland grouping, websites etc all have to be done which is why I reckon we're talking March next year for launch. On a tight timeframe Christmas could be a good time for launching, what with the time of year etc...but it would be tight. March sounds more comfortable. Hope Onevision sign off and keep the €9.99 offering given the current economic situation people would go for it I'd say.

mrdtv

watty wrote: »

Wrong!

Sky / Satellite proves that RTE perceives THEIR costs as the cost to the licence fee payer. MPEG2 would now almost double their costs.

In terms of ASO and public buying sets/Setbox, long before ASO, the MPEG4 will be the default in all receivers and is already heading toward a similar price.

Its the cost to the consumer which is critical in the deployment as reslfj also noted this morning, not RTE's transmission costs. Unfortunately MPEG2 currently has much higher volumes than MPEG4. The issue is now what spec is the box going to be, who pays the CA royalties, the MHEG5 licences, sets up the verification etc. I think this will be delayed for another year because of RTE's economic position, the failed BCI business structure (this was ditched in the UK, Spain and has had marginal success in Sweden.), the downturn in TV advertising revenues which is probably permanent. When in doubt delay over at Donnybrook... The longer its delayed the more likely its either T2 or just analogue lingering on.

watty

The consumer costs in the next few years, not today. No one HAS to change today. The Transmission and distribution costs are the ONLY difference and the only cost RTE or Government cares about.Those are for always x2 to x3 for MPEG2, every year.

There is no significant consumer cost over the roll-out / ASO time frame anyway.

SRB

watty wrote: »

The fact is the exist analogue network is very poor by European/UK standards and RTE have never admitted it.

I'm measuring almost 100x more power on DTT than Analogue here. Still need an outdoor aerial for reception.

Agreed ! In fact the analogue signal from Kippure has dropped drastically in the last few weeks where I am. Have had watchable pictures for the last 8 years or so, now it's very poor. Does anyone know if they are using the same TX antenna for both analogue and DTT - at a guess if they've nulled the DTT, the analogue has also been hit. Then again, they could just be working on the mast.
Anyway - back on topic, I can't see them runnning the DTT service on their own, too costly, I agree it'd probably be turned off shortly, with no launch likely soon...

slegs

So they install the equipment, put all the transmission in place and test succesfully and then turn off.

Sorry, but I don't see this happening. If they already have all this is place it would not make sense to turn off based on power (these are not independent sites - there is already power bills so they wont save that much) and transmission (there are significant build costs that are spent - will the monthly backhaul costs save them that much?).

I imagine the likely outcome is a soft launch (no press, no advertising no certifcation) but that the transmissions will continue until a finalised PAY TV partner is in place when the official launch and marketing investment will happen.

I don't see anywhere comments about switching off the transmissions. They have only been talking about delays in completing the rollout and officially launching at this point. I expect this is all that will happen.

John mac

hope they wont turn it off. (doubt they will ) as i have just bought a combo box for the olds.

marclt

The real problem in all this, is the BCI. They are trying to push on with an outdated model that is simply not going to deliver any form of profit - which must be their key driver.

The BCI should be concentrating on developing content policy for DTT, ensuring Irish content not making money on the govt's behalf by selling the space to more foreign broadcasters selling ad space and providing no content!

So how long will it be until they realise that continued discussion on the matter is of no value, and knock the whole thing on it's head. There simply isn't the consumer base for a pay tv service. Perhaps there is more mileage with a topuptv style add-on service...

Scottish paddy

There is no reason why DTT could not be launched on all the main transmitters and leave the relays to a later date. Analogue could even be turned off at the main transmitters as people are reporting improved reception on DTT.

Mossy Monk

It would be an absolute waste if they turned off the whole network. Where I live there is no TV3 unless you use a booster for Mount Leinster or a regular aerial for DTT

watty

Missing Random and offtopic and general Broadcast musings moved here

Rippy

John mac wrote: »

hope they wont turn it off. (doubt they will ) as i have just bought a combo box for the olds.

Looks like the worst has happened .
Ass holes :mad::mad:

s_gr

Seems to be gone off in Dublin....complete Joke RTE, spend all the money on tx sites...then turn the whole system off. Well they can sing for the licence fee........

byte

Yeah, must be down nationwide. Of course, we know that they're still "tests" but do tests really need testcards?

snaps

Yeah they could have left the channels on for us with mpeg 4 equipment. Its all a joke. Rte should just fold and perhaps let an Irish BBC takeover (Dare i say it), we may even get 4 regional variations then!!!

Mossy Monk

snaps wrote: »

we may even get 4 regional variations then!!!

The only that could be worse than RTÉ from Dublin is RTÉ from Cork.

Ghost Train

So anyone know what the story is with the test channels or are things on perminent hold?

Anyway pity to see things going backwards

Mossy Monk

Nothing is going backwards. These were always tests and nothing more.

JHMEG

I don't understand the need for engineering tests when every other national broadcaster in the EU has been down this road before RTE. The Germans pretty much have DTT licked, with 90% market penetration. Can't RTE just ask them for a copy of their notes? Of if they don't understand German they could ask Brits?

watty

There are no trials. The trial that there was on east coast last year was Political, not technical.

The current transmissions are ordinary Engineering tests. Not at all trials.

Once all their tests are done the network could have regular channels, test cards or be shut down till the Public Launch.


RTENL have made it clear on the website from the beginning that these transmissions are not a Public Service.

We have said on boards that buying equipment before the Public launch was at your own risk.

Charles Slane

What is a trial? What is a test? (Genuine question)

watty

Actually there are Trail Licences, Test Licences and Service Trials and Engineering Tests.



A trial is usually involves a group of people using the service. You can get various kinds of Trail licences from ComReg for Broadcasting or Wireless Broadband. There can be technical and/or non-technical reasons for a trial. In Ireland you can't charge people involved in a Trial. It can be used to evaluate Technology or kind of service. It need not use actual frequencies or even equipment that would eventually be deployed. A Trail does not mean there will be a service or even a licence.


An Engineering test need not involve the public at all. It's used to make sure the final equipment for a Public Service is all working and installed properly, aerials are pointing correctly, no co-channel interference, signal/power levels are correct etc. It can be using a Comreg Trail Licence, Test Licence or Service Licence. There is no requirement for anyone to be actually using the service and in fact it would reduce test flexibility it there was any users.

A ComReg "test" licence is used to evaluate equipment or a service (broadcast or Wireless Broadband) without any public involvement. It does not mean any commitment by ComReg or the Provider to ever launch a service.

Charles Slane

Thanks for that clarification Watty.