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Proving to people in Paranormal forum that they can be tricked

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    #92
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Grimes wrote: »
    I dont really have an interest in people sneering and jeering while im trying to have some fun on an investigation.

    I was going to say, you guys need to have to think about what is the priority here.

    Having a sceptic along on an investigation I imagine is like having a historian sitting beside you when watching Braveheart. Grand if the purpose of you watching Braveheart is a greater understanding of medieval Scotland (you obviously want to know if something is incorrect), but annoying if you just want to enjoy the damn movie.

    So while I hope that a sceptic would not sneer or jeer at anyone if the priority is to have fun on an investigation and that involves buying into all the paranormal stories, a sceptic may not be to everyone's liking.


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    #93
    Riamfada
    Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I was going to say, you guys need to have to think about what is the priority here.

    Having a sceptic along on an investigation I imagine is like having a historian sitting beside you when watching Braveheart. Grand if the purpose of you watching Braveheart is a greater understanding of medieval Scotland (you obviously want to know if something is incorrect), but annoying if you just want to enjoy the damn movie.

    So while I hope that a sceptic would not sneer or jeer at anyone if the priority is to have fun on an investigation and that involves buying into all the paranormal stories, a sceptic may not be to everyone's liking.

    I think, like i am sure iamhunted feels, that this thread is like talking to a self assured brick wall. Your logic is so flawed but you cant see it its actually hilarious but also frustrating.Im out after being stupid enough to post on this thread in the first place. There is a good 30 minutes of my life I wont be getting back

    /chow


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    #94
    iamhunted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    i think thats how they lure you in mr grimes ... entice you with pointless, circular 'arguments' where they say 'science' a lot and hope by saying it that we believe they are 'scientific'.

    Im convinced they are at this stage. All hail the armchair scientists once more! Especially Wicknight who seems to have difficultly in grasping the simpliest ideas! (going by the last few posts anyway)


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    #95
    iamhunted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Having a cynic along on an investigation ....

    Fixed that for you.


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    #96
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Grimes wrote: »
    I think, like i am sure iamhunted feels, that this thread is like talking to a self assured brick wall. Your logic is so flawed but you cant see it its actually hilarious but also frustrating.Im out after being stupid enough to post on this thread in the first place. There is a good 30 minutes of my life I wont be getting back

    /chow

    This is such a bizarre forum.

    I go to Grimes yeah that is a good point, no one wants a sceptic along with them unless that is the point, otherwise it just gets annoying. And I get a torrent of abuse back about how my "logic" is so flawed that it is hilarious.

    What "logic"? Are you saying that it isn't actually annoying to have a sceptic along? :confused:

    Are you guys insane or are you just so defensive about your beliefs that no matter what anyone says you feel that the whole world is out to attack and ridicule you?


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    #97
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    iamhunted wrote: »
    Fixed that for you.

    Buy a dictionary for the love of God ...


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    #98
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    TaxiManMartin wrote: »
    I posted this in After Hours (actually it looks like i posted it by accident in Paranormal ... duh ) so i could get some people together for an experiment.

    But mysteriously it was closed without warning.

    I guess anyone interested can still PM me but i dont see why it would be closed. I guess they are not interested in an experiment like this.


    After reading and answering some threads in the paranormal forum it looks like some people just want to believe in the supernatural. They cant help it. They dont really have any proof, but are willing to say any experience they cant explain is supernatural. They arent even open to the idea that they could be mistaken at all.

    I suggested in one thread that some of us go and set up the next "Ghost hunt" to give them some false positives. Basically what i am proposing is to get there before them and set up some experiences for them.

    Let them find their "proof" and let them come back here and talk about it for a few days. Then we post what they actually experienced and how we set it up. And see if they believe that they are capable of being tricked into seeing ghosts after that.

    I have had a few people contact me about it already. And have someone on the inside who can give us advance warning of a "hunt". They will also help lead the "hunters" into our little experiment. Its someone who doesnt really believe, but they go on the "hunts" for the craic.

    We have some very good ideas. Ive written to James Randi too but he hasnt answered yet smile.gif

    I think this would be an interesting experiment to see just how objective people who claim to experience the supernatural really are.

    Anyone else who wants in let me know via PM or otherwise.


    Is anyone in Skeptics interested? I think it would be a really worthwhile experiment to do. And it might show some people that their need to believe is effecting their judgment in a bad way.

    It doesnt really matter if they know we plan to do this experiment. Just the very nature of their need to believe in the supernatural will override any suspicion they have that they are being experimented upon. They wont actually know when we have set this up anyway, until after they reveal their results, and then we reveal our results.

    I might bring this up at an Irish skeptics meeting too. Havent been to one in ages.

    are you going to refund them all the money they paid to go on the trip?


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    #99
    iamhunted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Wicknight wrote: »
    This is such a bizarre forum.

    I go to Grimes yeah that is a good point, no one wants a sceptic along with them unless that is the point, otherwise it just gets annoying. And I get a torrent of abuse back about how my "logic" is so flawed that it is hilarious.

    What "logic"? Are you saying that it isn't actually annoying to have a sceptic along? :confused:

    Are you guys insane or are you just so defensive about your beliefs that no matter what anyone says you feel that the whole world is out to attack and ridicule you?

    we are obviously insane, as proved by the fact we have a differing opinion from your fine self. Thats insanity if ever there was any.

    Now, is there any kind of salute or anything we're meant to be doing when Hailing you?


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    #100
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    iamhunted wrote: »
    i think thats how they lure you in mr grimes ... entice you with pointless, circular 'arguments' where they say 'science' a lot and hope by saying it that we believe they are 'scientific'.

    Point out how I'm not scientific. Or shut up about it. Its pretty easy. I'm being so cynical and non-scientific and fraudulent it should be very simply to show this. Demonstrate how I'm wrong or stop saying I'm wrong. Demonstrate why my arguments are circular or stop claiming they are.

    Continuously saying I'm wrong and calling me a "cynic" (seriously dictionaries are free on the Internet) without ever once putting forward support for that (ie a charge that I can actually defend against) is just being silly.

    It makes you look like you have nothing but hot air to be blowing.

    I'm this close to reporting you for abuse. You never back up any of the charges you make against people including myself. You just keep making them ad nausea and any time you are challenged you just ignore calls to back your statements up and continue spouting the same abuse at other posters.

    You are a bully. If you are an example of the modern state of paranormal research no wonder you guys haven't found anything.


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    #101
    iamhunted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    what? abuse?

    So lets get this clear - you take part in a debate, you make absolutely no new points whatsoever and repeat the same old same old thats in every other thread and when you realise you're getting nowhere, you report me for abuse.

    You know what? If all threads are going to be a banal as this one then please, get me banned. It'd probably save my mind.


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    #102
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Wicknight wrote: »
    So while I hope that a sceptic would not sneer or jeer at anyone if the priority is to have fun on an investigation and that involves buying into all the paranormal stories, a sceptic may not be to everyone's liking.
    I have been on an investigation or two. Sceptics are not only welcome, they run the damn thing. To the point that I *never* speak up from my side of things. (Spiritualism). I always feel that information is irrelevant to them, they want evidence. Facts.

    Paranormal stories around an area are entertaining yes, and are the reason sometimes that an investigation is done, but by and large they are taken with a pinch of salt.


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    #103
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    iamhunted wrote: »
    So lets get this clear - you take part in a debate, you make absolutely no new points whatsoever and repeat the same old same old thats in every other thread and when you realise you're getting nowhere, you report me for abuse.

    Indeed :rolleyes:

    Like I said -

    Point out how I'm not scientific. Or shut up about it. Its pretty easy. I'm being so cynical and non-scientific and fraudulent it should be very simply to show this. Demonstrate how I'm wrong or stop saying I'm wrong. Demonstrate why my arguments are circular or stop claiming they are.

    Put up or shut up.

    Explain how I'm being unscientific and cynical or stop claiming I am. Otherwise I'm reporting you for abuse.


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    #104
    iamhunted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Possibly, but I suspect that if what goes on was vastly different and more scientific than what I suspect goes on from reading the IPIC and PIGs web page you would have already explained the details I'm apparently missing

    By the way, if you want to harass me about websites, then at least have the courtesy to find faults in our own LeinsterParanormal site and the info on it (besides obviously the news section as that has all sorts of stereotypical crap in it), and not two other sites I am not connected with.


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    #105
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Oryx wrote: »
    I have been on an investigation or two. Sceptics are not only welcome, they run the damn thing. To the point that I *never* speak up from my side of things. (Spiritualism). I always feel that information is irrelevant to them, they want evidence. Facts.

    Paranormal stories around an area are entertaining yes, and are the reason sometimes that an investigation is done, but by and large they are taken with a pinch of salt.

    That is good to hear. I will try not to let my experiences with certain posters cloud my view of those who partake in paranormal research trips.


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    #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wicknight wrote: »
    That is good to hear. I will try not to let my experiences with certain posters cloud my view of those who partake in paranormal research trips.


    If you ever meet the people in person you might have more in common with them then you think.


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    #107
    iamhunted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Indeed :rolleyes:

    Like I said -

    Point out how I'm not scientific. Or shut up about it. Its pretty easy. I'm being so cynical and non-scientific and fraudulent it should be very simply to show this. Demonstrate how I'm wrong or stop saying I'm wrong. Demonstrate why my arguments are circular or stop claiming they are.

    Put up or shut up.

    Explain how I'm being unscientific and cynical or stop claiming I am. Otherwise I'm reporting you for abuse.

    click that report button, cus then I wouldnt be able to reply anymore. You'd be doing me a favour. You ARENT being scientific and talking about being scientific doesnt make you so. You have shown absolutely no idea of what cynic/skeptic means in a real world sense, outside of a dictionary definition but regardless you still dont seem to have any time for parnormal claims. This makes you cynical. The idea that you arent cynical because if someone showed you the proof is questionable at best as I have no reason to believe that if someone showed you 'proof' that you would disbelieve it anyway. You already told me you cant even trust your own perception.

    End. Of. Story. But feel free to report me anyway.


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    #108
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Wicknight wrote: »
    That is good to hear. I will try not to let my experiences with certain posters cloud my view of those who partake in paranormal research trips.
    The reason that people get irritated here I think, are the sweeping assumptions that are made about what paranormal researchers do. These assumptions can often be completely wrong. An interest in the paranormal does not preclude the ability to think rationally and scientifically and to dismiss nonsense. :)


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    #109
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Oryx wrote: »
    The reason that people get irritated here I think, are the sweeping assumptions that are made about what paranormal researchers do. These assumptions can often be completely wrong. An interest in the paranormal does not preclude the ability to think rationally and scientifically and to dismiss nonsense. :)

    I agree entirely, sweeping assumptions are bad. But at the same time that is not a reason to ignore genuine points under the banner of we are under attack backs up against the wall lads (not directed at you but other posters).

    There is an awful lot of nonsense that goes hand in hand with the paranormal. Which is fine if it is just a bit of fun. Not fine if those pushing this nonsense make genuine claims to being scientific.

    Pointing this out is not the same thing as making sweeping assumptions about all those who are interested in the paranormal. I'm sure a lot of these people recognise that there is a lot of nonsense going around. But others don't.

    Likewise pointing out the supported nonsense is not the same as jeering and mocking. It should be possible to have discussion on these topics from a sceptical position without people feeling that just because I'm sceptical to their claims I'm not trying to insult them.

    As if often said on the A&A forum, attack the belief not the believer.

    Having said that most of my annoyance in this thread stems from the "you're not a sceptic you're a cynic" nonsense. Overblood is a sceptic, he is not cynical. He may be more sceptical that some people like, but that does not make him cynical.


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    #110
    iamhunted
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭iamhunted


    funny thing is, thats what gets me - when cynical people pretend they're skeptical.


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    #111
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    TaxiManMartin wrote: »
    After reading and answering some threads in the paranormal forum it looks like some people just want to believe in the supernatural. They cant help it. They dont really have any proof, but are willing to say any experience they cant explain is supernatural. They arent even open to the idea that they could be mistaken at all.
    We talking about paranormal people here, or the christains (with the "holy" ghost, aka the "holy" spirit)?


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    #112
    grimsqueaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭grimsqueaker


    I dont think this experiment is valid, at all.

    In order for the believers to be tricked, the supposed set up need to be plausible. In a "haunted" place something paranormal is actually a more reasonable answer than "there are a load of w**kers in teh bushes deliberately setting stuff up to make it look like there are ghosts!!!" what sort of paranoid freak would naturally come to that conclusion!?!?

    So teh experiemnt is invalid

    Aside from that, A/ ur "experiement" is childish and mean, id hate to have my weekend fun spoiled by someone else with a chip on his shoulder

    and B/ an experiement requires controlled environments, u need to prove the place is NOT haunted first and that ur misleading "ghosts" are clearly NOT shosts, cause if theyre believable u again end up with no data u can use.

    so go to Trinity, get some funding, do some research, a proper test group (u need control people aswell as targets, once again can we say it IN VALID DATA!!!!!), and a local u know for certain has 0% spiritual activity. Then present ur findings


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