[Article] 6,000 learner drivers fined for breaking law

munchkin_utd

THOUSANDS of learner drivers face having to pay fines of up to €1,000 after being caught driving alone or without having an 'L' plate displayed.

The Irish Independent can reveal that gardai have caught almost 6,000 provisional licence holders breaking tough new laws introduced on July 1 last year.

snip.....

The figures show that between July 1 and December 1 last year, 2,966 drivers have been issued with summonses for failing to display 'L' plates.
There is no data available from December 2008 to June 2009.
Another 2,716 drivers have been issued with summonses for driving unaccompanied by a qualified driver.

snip....

Road safety groups criticised the lack of data readily available, and said that enforcing the law would send the message that inexperienced drivers would be prosecuted.

Susan Gray from Public Against Road Carnage said: "Many of these are young male drivers who are involved in so many of our serious and fatal crashes."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/6000-learner-drivers-fined-for-breaking-law-1807392.html

WOW.
I am stunned.
After years of turning a blind eye to this type of thing, the Guards are now coming down like a ton of bricks on people who are breaking the law.

I still expect the offenders to get away with nothing more than 20 euro for the court poor box and a slap on the wrist and a promise not to do it again. "Sure wasnt poor old johnny just driving to work" etc etc.
We'll have to wait and see.

Capt'n Midnight

What do they mean UP to €1,000 ?


http://www.rsa.ie/SERVICES/upload/File/Licensing/Summary%20of%20Changes%20effective%20after%20June%2030th.pdf

Summary of changes as it applies to learner permit holders (the changes also apply to persons holding a
provisional license). All provisional licenses are now considered to be learner permit.
The exemption that allows a second learner permit holder in license category B (car) to drive
unaccompanied ends on 30 June 2008.
After 30 June 2008 all learner permit holder driving cars, trucks, buses and articulated
vehicles must be accompanied by a person who holds a full driving license in the license
category for a continuous period of two years. Driving any of these vehicles without a
qualified person accompanying is a penal offence.
Penal Offences are being created for certain breaches of traffic law by learner drivers. These
offences are punishable by a fine of a minimum of €1,000 for a first offence.

Vorsprung

I know of one such driver who was fined a little over €2000 (friend my girlfriend's)

murphaph

T'is high time the roads were treated a bit more seriously by the powers that be. Hopefully this is the beginning of a realisation by An Garda Siochana that there's more to policing the roads than pointing a radar/laser gun at people on a motorway.

munchkin_utd

Irish journalism sometimes seems to be little more than a press release collation exercise.
And they cant even get that right.

But its good to see the minimum fine there, taking the power away from cranky district court judges to impose minimal poor box contributions.

Another legal measure was being spoken of to help improve driver competance. Was it not planned to make taking driving lessons compulsorary before taking the test?

Does anyone not get the conection between lack of formal driver training and road safety/ high driving test failure rates?

bmaxi

murphaph wrote: »

T'is high time the roads were treated a bit more seriously by the powers that be. Hopefully this is the beginning of a realisation by An Garda Siochana that there's more to policing the roads than pointing a radar/laser gun at people on a motorway.

I doubt it, anything else might involve using initiative.

salonfire

Wow that should make some people think again about driving alone

What is the average wait for driving test now anyone know?

murphaph

Think it's only 6 weeks or so.

Tech3

murphaph wrote:

Think it's only 6 weeks or so.

Yeah waiting lists have been like that for the last year or so now. Theres no excuses for these learners illegally driving on their own. They have been warned several times and even given a year to pass their tests before the law was even enforced.

Vorsprung wrote:

I know of one such driver who was fined a little over €2000 (friend my girlfriend's)

That person must have been caught withouth their L plates displayed and without an accompanied fully licensed driver. If the L plates were displayed in that case the fine would have been 1000 euro.

jhegarty

murphaph wrote: »

Think it's only 6 weeks or so.

9.5 weeks from the RSA figures.

If you live in Tallaght it's 16 weeks.

Guy:Incognito

6,000 and all they managed to show on Traffic Blues is people being let go?

corktina

they should be shouting those figures from the rooftops...I see offenders of this nature every day.

You'd need to see a real breakdown of those figures.... off course there will be some, as there will be instances where someone has no NCT/Tax and is stopped at a checkpoint add in the lack of L plates,also learners who were breaking the law(speeding, breaking a light etc...) and add in the boy racers and i'd say that makes up quite a sizeable figure in that.

I doubt there was too many who were summoned who had everything in order.... i'm on a permit and while i'll drive without a driver i wouldn't dream off driving without plates, tax, insurance or NCT and i personally have no fear with those things in order

I believe these prosecutions have come as a result of added complications the driver brought on themselves

ardmacha

I doubt there was too many who were summoned who had everything in order.... i'm on a permit and while i'll drive without a driver i wouldn't dream off driving without plates, tax, insurance or NCT and i personally have no fear with those things in order

Hopefully you are naive, and there are at least some Gardai willing to do their job.

murphaph

gilberto_eire wrote: »

i'm on a permit and while i'll drive without a driver <snip>

You are not qualified to drive a car and simply should not be doing so gilberto. You may be the best driver in the world for all I know but we have a process for you to prove your ability to drive to the rest of us before we (society) let you drive unaccompanied.

Whatever excuse there used to be about year long waiting lists are long gone mate and you should have no more than about 2 months to wait for a test. For your sake I hope you pass your test before you're stopped and summonsed to court (driving without a licence is a court appearance, not an on the spot matter) but if you are summonsed I'm afraid to say I won't shed any tears.

Our driving test isn't even that demanding in comparison to most EU states.

Capt'n Midnight

gilberto_eire wrote: »

i'm on a permit and while i'll drive without a driver i wouldn't dream off driving without plates, tax, insurance or NCT and i personally have no fear with those things in order

self certification eh ?

judging by driving test pass rates it's 50:50 that a learner who thinks they can drive can pass what must be the easiest test in the OECD. And the standard of Irish drivers who have passed the test !

What's that thing called where someone who is learning thinks their competance is greater than it actually is ?


Government could make a lot of money if they enforced this fully

Alun

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

self certification eh ?

Indeed. I don't understand why these people don't understand what nonsense this is.

[sarcasm mode]
In fact, reflecting on it for a moment, that's such a great money and time saving idea, we really should be looking at extending it to other skills such as doctors, surgeons, nurses and airline pilots as well. Think of the money we'd save
[/sarcasm mode]

dowlingm

Ontario graduated licencing

G1

• vision and rules/signs exam (40 multichoice q's)
• must be accompanied (front seat) by licenced driver 4 years exp and <0.05 blood alcohol
• no motorway driving
• no driving from midnight to 05:00
• zero blood alcohol

G2

• must pass G1 Exit Road Test
• can drive unaccompanied
• can drive on motorways
• zero blood alcohol
• cannot carry more passengers than working seatbelts
• from midnight to 0500 G2s under 19 years old can only carry one passenger aged 19 or under.
• After the first six months, and until the G2 driver earns a full G licence or turns 20, they can carry only three passengers aged 19 or under.
• G2 status expires so you can't just not bother going on

G

• full licence
• must pass G2 Exit Road Test to get it
• Blood alcohol - if you’re caught driving with a blood alcohol concentration from 0.05 to 0.08 (the "warn range"), the police can immediately suspend your licence up to three days for a first occurrence, seven days for a second occurrence and 30 days for a third or subsequent occurrence. >0.08 is a criminal offence.

munchkin_utd

The law quoted in an earlier post shows that its a minimum of 1000Euro fine for breaking these rules.

Penal Offences are being created for certain breaches of traffic law by learner drivers. These
offences are punishable by a fine of a minimum of €1,000 for a first offence.

From a quick search of the local newspapers, the judges are issuing much lower fines that the statutory minimum.
example:

Fined for driving unaccompanied

A MAN WHO was driving without a qualified driver beside him has since passed his test Wicklow District Court heard last Tuesday.

Luke Day ( 19), 197 Season Park, Newtownmountkennedy was charged with failing to be accompanied by a qualified driver, failing to display L plates and driving without a driving licence at Rosanna, Ashford on February 16, 2009.

Appearing before Judge Murrough Connellan, Day said that the car had since been scrapped and he had passed his test.

He told Judge Connellan it was hard to have a qualified driver in the car at all time.

Judge Connellan fined him €150 for failing to be accompanied, € 150 for failing to display L plates and took the matter of driving without a driving licence into account

http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/fined-for-driving-unaccompanied-1933888.html
Theres other cases with similar fines if you search around at the end of last year. Only in repeated cases does it seem that you get a higher fine.

No doubt I am opening a can of worms here, but if you can get away with a mere 150 euro fine, then driving on your own is still a perfectly valid option across the praries of Ireland to consider if you need a way to get to work or college and dont have a public transport or other alternative.

Cookie_Monster

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The law quoted in an earlier post shows that its a minimum of 1000Euro fine for breaking these rules.


From a quick search of the local newspapers, the judges are issuing much lower fines that the statutory minimum.
example:

http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/fined-for-driving-unaccompanied-1933888.html
Theres other cases with similar fines if you search around at the end of last year. Only in repeated cases does it seem that you get a higher fine.

No doubt I am opening a can of worms here, but if you can get away with a mere 150 euro fine, then driving on your own is still a perfectly valid option across the praries of Ireland to consider if you need a way to get to work or college and dont have a public transport or other alternative.

WTF, what's the point in having a minimum fine if its not going to be imposed :mad:

The reason the fine is so high is to discourage all the idiots from driving by themselves, if you know it only going to be 100 or 150 thats not that big a deal.

whosedaddy?

A disgrace, but what do you expect.. more of the same. judges handing down those lenient fines (or sentences in other cases).

Btw, I was wondering what is the penalty for repeat offenders?
It's not in the "summary of changes doc" attached to the thread.

getting caught unaccompanied should get your license suspended (taken off you by the guards) for 6 weeks. repeat offenders should resit the test.... that should sort it.

Cookie_Monster

whosedaddy? wrote: »

repeat offenders should resit the test.... that should sort it.

the haven't sat the test in the first place, thats the problem :pac:

whosedaddy?

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the haven't sat the test in the first place, thats the problem :pac:

true - I see the flaw in my argument

Davidth88

it's quite simple isn't it ?
if you don't have a valid licence you should not be insured.

No insurance , thanks we will have that car thank you , and crush it.

Capt'n Midnight

Davidth88 wrote: »

it's quite simple isn't it ?
if you don't have a valid licence you should not be insured.

No insurance , thanks we will have that car thank you , and crush it.

Learners on Daddy's or Mommy's car
Learners with a banger
not as easy as you think


Car should be stopped there and then, person told it will be a criminal offence to move it unless they get an accompanying driver, other options are call a tow truck or have it lifted and pay the resulting fines.

Capt'n Midnight

Davidth88 wrote: »

it's quite simple isn't it ?
if you don't have a valid licence you should not be insured.

No insurance , thanks we will have that car thank you , and crush it.

"Here are your messages: 'You have 30 minutes to move your car', 'You have 10 minutes', 'Your car has been impounded', 'Your car has been crushed into a cube', 'You have 30 minutes to move your cube'".

munchkin_utd

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

"Here are your messages: 'You have 30 minutes to move your car', 'You have 10 minutes', 'Your car has been impounded', 'Your car has been crushed into a cube', 'You have 30 minutes to move your cube'".

Slightly different matter, but seeing as you were speaking of impounding learner drivers cars, it can happen in Northern Ireland as southern learners/ provos aren't ever valid up there in the first place.
The threat of impounding sure has its dramatic effects!

A woman from the Belturbet area who went shopping in Northern Ireland last week and was driving on a provisional licence accompanied by a full licence holder had an interesting experience after being stopped her in the Derrylin area at a multi-agency checkpoint.

The lady was informed that they had the right to seize her car due to the fact that she was driving in the jurisdiction without a full licence. She had to pay over a few hundred sterling to retrieve her car, as they were going to take it away.

The Anglo-Celt understands that the gardaí do not have the power to seize a car under similar circumstances.

Published: Wednesday, 22nd April, 2009 11:57am
http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2009/04/22/38721-provisionals-banned-from-northern-ireland/print

EDIT:
I would contrast this with the Africian woman on the RTE programme Blue Patrol(??).
On a provisional with no accompanied driver, and a car with more children than seats,nor any belted in (let alone having proper child seats as is required) shes heading down the motorway.
The guard pulled her over. Said "Careful now", and sent her on her way down the motorway with children bouncing all about the car.

Comedy. You couldn't make it up.

Davidth88

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Learners on Daddy's or Mommy's car
Learners with a banger
not as easy as you think


Car should be stopped there and then, person told it will be a criminal offence to move it unless they get an accompanying driver, other options are call a tow truck or have it lifted and pay the resulting fines.

Learners with a banger , not a problem , they make a nice cube, 1000 euro fine.

Learners with parents ( or whoever car ) , get out of the car please , impound until someone with valid licence/insurance picks it up , 1000 Euro fine .

I really don't understand why these people are covered by insurance , after all they don't have a valid licence .

Cookie_Monster

Davidth88 wrote: »

I really don't understand why these people are covered by insurance , after all they don't have a valid licence .

This is the real problem, if people knew they wouldn't be insured most of them wouldn't drive. Insurance companies should refuse cover unless accompanied, or at least refuse to payout for anything other than 3rd party and seek that back off the learner via courts

Mitch Connor

Davidth88 wrote: »

Learners with a banger , not a problem , they make a nice cube, 1000 euro fine.

Learners with parents ( or whoever car ) , get out of the car please , impound until someone with valid licence/insurance picks it up , 1000 Euro fine .

I really don't understand why these people are covered by insurance , after all they don't have a valid licence .

they are and they aren't.

If you remove the insurance from them, it is not just them that suffer in a crash (that is their fault) - the victim then has no insurance to claim off, and would have to go to the Uninsured Drivers fund, which can be a pain in the ass.

The law states, basically, that once someone pays for insurance it can not be taken away to the determent of a third party.

What will happen is that the insurance company will pay out like normal, and can then go after the learner driver for the money paid out. So the victim gets their compensation through the learner driver's insurance, and the learner driver ends up paying the insurance company back.

Davidth88

Mitch Connor wrote: »

they are and they aren't.



What will happen is that the insurance company will pay out like normal, and can then go after the learner driver for the money paid out. So the victim gets their compensation through the learner driver's insurance, and the learner driver ends up paying the insurance company back.

Thats illuminating . So technically they are not covered .

So why are they not done for this too ?

Mad isn't it