I thought it was a good group until....

Jiggy

(Just take the above title and add in your own reason for the shocking discovery that the pug group was not your dream team)

... the mage asked for water
... the rogue "forgot" to stealth before a sap
... the warrior was mortal striking with a stave

(continue)

AaronFitz

Here's a good one, although it's quite sad as it happened to me in a group. The hunter's idea of being a ranged dps class was based on using throwing weapons...

I thought it was a good group until our warrior tank felt the need to dps tank groups clearly only tankable with a sheild on and blamed the priest for running oom and later removed everyone (1 by 1 so as to not just let us attempt to move on without him) god that day made me love Maraudon more than ever:rolleyes: good ol' leveling up day's.

Jiggy

I thought it was a good group until the priest told me to stop getting so much agro, I then informed him I was the tank

TheDoc

I thought it was a good group until

- The group agreed it would be best for my Felguard to tank
- There was a massive row between a warrior and DK for a pair of shoulders, the row was so intense they didn't realise it was a cloth item.
- I realised the level 75 priest was using lesser heal
- I realised Dar was topping dps charts and he was still wearing two level 1 items....

Berns

Jiggy wrote: »

... the rogue "forgot" to stealth before a sap

Done that b4 :">

... There were mobs flyin all over the place cuz the DK Tank was in the wrong presence :P

... Pets were set to aggressive

... Combat rogues using instant poison.

Jiggy

...the hunter Misdirected to the priest

...the death knights wanted to play death grip ping pong

...the mage aoe'd one mob

nix

Berns wrote: »

... Combat rogues using instant poison.

Whats wrong with instant poison ?

DarthWraak

...the warlock soulstoned himself

...the holy paladin didnt have a main hander (true story)

Ino112

I got a worse SS one...Warlock soulstones NE hunter in Gnomeragan instead of priest..

"But I didn't want him to have to walk to his body"..abeit in very bad grammar and after a considerable long time of waiting for them to type the ** answer..

I died a little inside at that time..

Jiggy

since its going warlock friendly :P

...the warlock soulstoned the tank just in case he died so he could get agro again

...the warlock kept asking how to change the color of his voidwalker

AaronFitz

....The warrior felt that using intim shout would help them take less damage in the area of BRD where there is about 20 packs of 5 dwarfs (1 is always a priest) and oddly enough, even though we pulled 3 packs, thanks to my buddy priest friend he MC'ed the priest dwarf and spammed prayer of healing getting the aggro of about 15 mobs straight onto the dwarf he MC'ed and the dwarf was kept alive by it's own healing until it ran oom and was killed by his fellow NPC's however at this stage we had killed about 4 of the other mobs and I had 1 sheeped and all the remaining snared with nova + CoC giving the warrior time to pick up some aggro and my buddy to MC yet another priest

This was a moment that "I though it was a good group until..." and just turned into an epic moment where a priest relyed on my slows and roots and we all relyed on his MC'ed mob taking aggro + healing us. We had only grouped together about 5 times before that and since then we always group up and even joined the same guild and raid together.(The priest and I that is. He remains one of the best healers on the server in terms of PvE and PvP and plays in my 3v3.)

Berns

nix wrote: »

Whats wrong with instant poison ?

From post's i've checked on Elitist Jerks and wow rogue forums Wound MH & Deadly OH seem to be the best. Maybe instant if your mutilate and spec'd into it though. Something to do with proc's,damage or sumfin.

AaronFitz

Berns wrote: »

From post's i've checked on Elitist Jerks and wow rogue forums Wound MH & Deadly OH seem to be the best. Maybe instant if your mutilate and spec'd into it though. Something to do with proc's,damage or sumfin.

This is both accurate and 100% correct.

As the changes made to poisons in 3.1 were one of the bigger part of the Rogue-changes, I thought I might as well make a thread about it so that new Users may find it quickly and so that people stop asking about it in every second thread. (Somehow got tired of quoting myself all the time.)

Quote
# Deadly Poison: The amount of damage this poison generates from the rogue’s attack power has been increased from 8% per application to 12%.
# Instant Poison: Redesigned to have its chance to be applied based on the speed of the weapon (frequency-based).
# Wound Poison: Redesigned to have its chance to be applied based on the speed of the weapon (frequency-based).
Those were the changes made according to the Patchnotes.

Deadly Poison:
The coefficient on Deadly Poison has been increased by 50%, most people won't really be able to see how strong this will be on first glance, so let me help you here:

Every stack fo Deadly Poison on Level 80 atm does 296 + 0.08 * AP of damage.
That means a fully stacked DP does 1480 + 0.4 * AP of damage.
Per tick that comes down to 370 + 0.1 * AP, seeing as DP ticks every 3 seconds. (This is as it is Pre-3.1)

Coming 3.1 it will deal 296 + 0.12 * AP, fully stacked 1480 + 0.6 * AP, per tick it's 370 + 0.15 * AP.

That means that every tick you'll do 1% of your AP per stack of DP more damage.
(We'll stay at 5 stacks for the calculation:)

2000 AP: Every tick will do 100 more damage than before, so instead of 570 (Pre-3.1) you'll do 670 damage. That's an increase of about 17,5%.
3000 AP: Every tick will do 150 more damage than before, 670 ---> 820 damage. Increase of about 22,3%.
5000 AP: Every tick will do 250 more damage than before, 870 ---> 1120 damage. Increase of about 28,7%.

As you can see, the better your equipment is, the bigger the change will be for you.
Thus WP/DP will be better than WP/WP for raiding Combat-Rogues.


Wound Poison and Instant Poison changed to ppm:
Most people are a little confused about the ppm-change, so I will try to clear this up a little.

Although WP and IP have been changed to being ppm-based, they still have a procchance!
Well, "a" procchance is probably not correct, they have various procchances.

The ppm-change was only made so that the poisons are not as weaponspeed-dependent as before. Both poisons still have procchances, the only difference to before is, that the procchance depends on your weaponspeed. (Before 3.1 only the number of procs was different for different weaponspeeds, procchance was always the same. This has been more or less changed now.)

Now, how do those poisons work in 3.1? Let me explain this by using Wound Poison, as it's a little faster and easier to explain than Instant Poison.

Pre-3.1 Wound Poison had a 50% procchance.
In 3.1 WP and IP are changed to being ppm-based, and this change was made for a base-weaponspeed of 1.4

This means the following:
Before 3.1, when using a weapon with speed 1.4, you'd have a 50% procchance and thus 21,428 procs per minute. (Leaving all Haste-Buffs aside.)
The 21,42 ppm are generated by the following formula:
60 seconds * 0.5 (procchance) / 1.4 (weaponspeed) = 21,428.
The problem with this was, that you'd have less procs when using slower weapons:
60 seconds * 0.5 (procchance) / 2.6 (weaponspeed) = 11,54.

Coming 3.1 the procchance has no constant value anymore, the constant number will be the ppm. (Well, more or less... To be true, the procchances[Plural] will have exact values and the ppms will change when haste-effects are included. But when looking at the basic numbers, then there are various procchances but for WP only 1 ppm, for IP 4 ppms, 3 of which I calculated further down.)
Which is, for Wound Poison, 21,428.

Next thing you have to do is calculate the procchance:
21,428 ppm * weaponspeed * 100 / 60 seconds = procchance in %.
When using a weapon with speed 1.4, you'll have a procchance of 50%, when using a weapon with speed 2.8, you'll have a procchance of 100%, whereas the number of procs per minute stays the same.

The important thing that one has to remember is, that with 3.1 the procchance of WP and IP has been changed, everything else stays the same.
That means that Haste-effects affect poisons the same way they did before, the relation between Wound Poison and Instant Poison is still the same as before (meaning that you need 5 points in Improved Poisons and at least 2500 AP for IP to be stronger than WP).

The procchances are also the same for white attacks and for abilities, which means that no matter what speed your weapons have the number of procs from white attacks always stays the same BUT slower weapons will result in more poisonprocs through abilities.

Here are the procchances for various weapons:
Wound Poison:
Weaponspeed: Procchance
1.3 = 46.43% 1.9 = 67,86% 2.5 = 89,29%
1.4 = 50% 2.0 = 71,43% 2.6 = 92,86%
1.5 = 53.57% 2.1 = 75% 2.7 = 96,43%
1.6 = 57,14% 2.2 = 78,57% 2.8 = 100%
1.7 = 60,71% 2.3 = 82,14%
1.8 = 64,29% 2.4 = 85,71%


Instant Poison:
(As a combat-rogue should not use IP, I'll only use weaponspeeds for which there are daggers existent.)
Instant Poison without talents, Envenombuff not active: ppm is at 8,571
1.3 = 18,57%
1.4 = 20%
1.5 = 21,43%
1.6 = 22,86%
1.7 = 24,29%
1.8 = 25,71%

Instant Poison with 5/5 Imp. Poisons(ppm increased by 50%), Envenombuff not active: ppm is at 12,857
1.3 = 27,86%
1.4 = 30%
1.5 = 32,14%
1.6 = 34,29%
1.7 = 36,43%
1.8 = 38,57%

Instant Poison with 5/5 Imp. Poisons(ppm increased by 50%), Envenombuff active(+75%): ppm is at 22,5
1.3 = 48,75%
1.4 = 52,5%
1.5 = 56,25%
1.6 = 60%
1.7 = 63,75%
1.8 = 67,5%

What those Procchances I've listed here mean, is, that no matter how much Hasterating, Hastebuffs, Hastedebuffs, etc. you have, you'll always have the same procchance.
Of course you'll have to keep in mind that the IP-procchance with Envenombuff active is only correct when the Envenombuff is actually on you.
Procchances in 3.1 are going to be calculated as if you'd put your poison on a weapon that's lying around somewhere, that means the only things that are factored in are the basic speed of your weapon, the poison you use and, if you use Instant Poison, whether you have points in Improved Poisons and whether the Envenom-Buff is active.
Please keep in mind, that Haste does NOT affect the Procchance!



What Poisons to choose for 3.1?
Combat:
7/51/13: As a 7/51/13 Combat-Rogue you'll do best if you run with Wound Poison on mainhand and Deadly Poison on offhand in most cases. If you have a fight such as Gothik, where you wouldn't have any time for DP to tick, then use WP/WP. (Same goes for AoEing Trash.)
15/51/5: Same as 7/51/13.
18/51/2: Seems like WP/DP Evis is the way to go, followed by IP/DP Envenom and then WP/DP Envenom in last place.

Mutilate:
No questions here, always run Instant Poison on mainhand and Deadly Poison on offhand.

HaT:
I don't usually play HaT-rogues, so I'm not too sure about this, but I'll try my best.
a) Envenom-HaT: I believe IP/DP would be the way to go, as to maximize the number of IP-procs from finishers/abilities.
b) Eviscerate-HaT: WP/DP should be best, not too sure about this though. Might aswell be as strong as WP/WP, can't really say anything definit here.

(If anyone could provide accurate information on HaT-poisons it'd be much appreciated.)

Gunmonkey

......... I realised there was a hunter in the group.

AaronFitz

Gunmonkey wrote: »

......... I realised there was a huntard in the group.

Zing! C wat I did dar?

nix

Berns wrote: »

From post's i've checked on Elitist Jerks and wow rogue forums Wound MH & Deadly OH seem to be the best. Maybe instant if your mutilate and spec'd into it though. Something to do with proc's,damage or sumfin.

I understand deadly would be superior in raiding, but instant poison when your doing a ****ty pug 5 man instance is hardly reason enough to make you think the rogue is crap or the group is gonna be fail.

Its like mocking a DK for using cinderglacier over FC, people have their own preferences

Drakar

Im even starting to (grudgingly) accept discipline healing priests *shudder*.

Anti

Drakar wrote: »

Im even starting to (grudgingly) accept discipline healing priests *shudder*.

As opposed to the dps kind ?

Splinter

Anti wrote: »

As opposed to the dps kind ?

i take offence to this

(shadow main/disc off)

Drakar

Everyone knows spriests are win

Damn you Yogg

nix

Anti was commenting on disc priests, as if to say a dps disc priest is non existent.

Originally Posted by Drakar View Post
Im even starting to (grudgingly) accept discipline healing priests *shudder*.

as opposed to discipline dps priests

:pac:

Drakar

Well most people would have said healing for raids, disc for pvp, and shadow for fun (yeah yeah). Disc for raids (as healing) used be quite rare, but now provided you have only one of them people seem to accept it far easier than before. (I mean people used come to pug raids as disc pvp = lols).

nix

From my understanding of the game through my close friend who is one of the top geared priests on my server.

Holy = Best for aoe healing
Disc = Best for single target healing

The disc tree has been revamped since tbc, making it alot more raidworthy. Penance = amazing healing spell.

Id love to get my priest from 70 to 80, but im tired of leveling :P

Splinter

we did mimiron 25 last night with 3 disc priests,1 holy (who died at the start of p2) and 2 holy paladins (1 who died at the start of p3 ) :pac:

disc ftw

JackieChan

A level 70 hunter asked what a 'freezing trap' was! *
*back in a BC heroic when that soon to be forgotten art of CC was required!


When a party member asks how do you roll !!?
-Come on! How can you get to level 80 without having ever rolled!

Berns

JackieChan wrote: »

When a party member asks how do you roll !!?
-Come on! How can you get to level 80 without having ever rolled!

Jesus, had that too. Seen some asking can they have the gear but tell em to roll for it like the rest, clueless :rolleyes:


Tried 2 groups of 10 in Ulduar last night. Off spec tank tankin in our group. Seemed ok in first few boss's we did. Others , didn't have a clue. Even though our MT basically walked him through ignis & council, didnt listen, knew better, wipe, wipe, wipe..... u get the picture :P

Then he started to blame one of the other guildies on one of the bosses who dc'd & couldnt blame him tbh. Looked at the guys spec (Death Knight). For tankin u usually get 5 points in each tree initially in sumfin like Anticipation, Toughness and cant remember one in blood. Only had the 5 in the frost tree Stopped using buff food etc when noticed he hadnt a clue and was gonna be a wipefest.

Splinter

mine is more a funny raiding story than anything else..

we were on mimiron25 last week and called pull on vent and one of the hunters pressed the button thinking thats how you start the event... cue fire, laughs, and death...

(hitting the big red button activates hard mode and its NASTY)

Dcully

Im dual specced disc and holy.
I simply go holy when raid healing and disc when tank healing.
I find disc more fun to play than holy,its simply awesome for keeping a tank up.
When not raiding i often heal mates on heroic runs as they gear up and i rarely ever have to heal the main tank on the bosses thanks to pain supression and shield,he usually sits at 100% with the odd spike to 95%
Penance is my fav spell in the game along with mind sear
If only we could have tri-spec i miss shadow.

][cEMAN**

I'm thinking unlimited spec tbh (or at least 4). For certain classes dual spec means they can setup their PvE build and their PvP build.

For hybrid classes, i'd need 4. Prot, Ret, Holy, PvP.

For some it means they can just pvp, but for others they're expected to dual spec to backup heal or backup dps or backup tank. So where's our pvp option? And what if you're like me and you've been gearing all 3 tree specs since hitting 80? I've spent over 6k in respecs. Still having to respec now even though I have dual spec...

Ivan

You do like I've done and you role an alt

TheDoc

ok lols of today


I was in a voa group, and realised I'd very little soulshards, so I was just doing average damage to the opening trash and soulsharding. The raid leader stopped before boss, and made a comment " Furyio you ****ing noob, your not fighting this, bye bye" and kicked me

So literally I'm furios.... no amount of say chat is helping, until I get a whisper from someone saying " were you doing what i think you were" to which i reply " i was gathering soulshards"

A few seconds later im invited back, seemingly the tank asked for raid leader, to mark targets ( in voa) the raid leader bought it, gave him lead, and then tank then proceeded to kick the leader and invite me back. Simply grabbed another dps and i summoned, whilst your man was yelling outragous comments. It was total lol.

Still havnt seen one warlock drop in voa though

samurai kebab

So figure I'll ask this while it's being talked about this whole dual spec business when people talk about having to pay for it do they mean paying blizzard to have to specs or just were it says I want to unlearn my talents at the trainer? Now I put 1 talent point into the wrong talent tree and on a useless talent so if I do that unlearn my talent thing do I get to re-do all my talent points? Also if the dual spec thing is something you pay blizz for what does it entail? Sorry for so much questions but didnt want to start a whole new thread just on this.

Cheers.

P.s on the group thing on my first instance I soulstoned myself the group were not impressed:o cant blame them though reallt haha.

][cEMAN**

Ivan wrote: »

You do like I've done and you role an alt

Before dual spec this would have meant for eg. Warlock, if you wanted PvE and PvP you would have needed to roll a second Warlock. Unrealistic.

Is it so strange to offer unlimited or a high limit number of combinations? You still have to glyph for each one. In reality if they can store multiple spec setups already along with multiple alts, it wouldn't take much more storage to store multiple builds. Even if they charged 1k gold for each extra build option (and all the glyphs you buy afterwords), i'd gladly take that gold drain.

samurai kebab wrote: »

So figure I'll ask this while it's being talked about this whole dual spec business when people talk about having to pay for it do they mean paying blizzard to have to specs or just were it says I want to unlearn my talents at the trainer? Now I put 1 talent point into the wrong talent tree and on a useless talent so if I do that unlearn my talent thing do I get to re-do all my talent points? Also if the dual spec thing is something you pay blizz for what does it entail? Sorry for so much questions but didnt want to start a whole new thread just on this.

If you pay 1000g you can train to have 2 changeable spec setups. If you mess up putting the points in 1, and want to start over, you still have to pay to respec (that's why wowhead talent calculator is a good place to decide what you want before you start putting points in). You can change between either spec though anywhere you want except in a BG/Arena, or when in combat.

magicianz

Just to add to icemans post, you have to be 40+ to be able to get dual specs.

Splinter

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;61180971']Before dual spec this would have meant for eg. Warlock, if you wanted PvE and PvP you would have needed to roll a second Warlock. Unrealistic.

Is it so strange to offer unlimited or a high limit number of combinations? You still have to glyph for each one. In reality if they can store multiple spec setups already along with multiple alts, it wouldn't take much more storage to store multiple builds. Even if they charged 1k gold for each extra build option (and all the glyphs you buy afterwords), i'd gladly take that gold drain.



If you pay 1000g you can train to have 2 changeable spec setups. If you mess up putting the points in 1, and want to start over, you still have to pay to respec (that's why wowhead talent calculator is a good place to decide what you want before you start putting points in). You can change between either spec though anywhere you want except in a BG/Arena, or when in combat.

theres an option in interface where you have to confirm before it saves the talent tree making it exactly like the wowhead one

dubhdara3

I thought it was a good group until....
The Group leader despite my objections told everyone I was tanking.... I'm a healer

][cEMAN**

splinter wrote: »

theres an option in interface where you have to confirm before it saves the talent tree making it exactly like the wowhead one

Cool. I had no idea they added that.

Splinter

yup. came in with the ulduar and dual spec patch

de5p0i1er

dubhdara3 wrote: »

I thought it was a good group until....
The Group leader despite my objections told everyone I was tanking.... I'm a healer

I've had that problem only been told to heal when I',m a dps Pally I don't have enough mana to heal for a whole boss fight.

dubhdara3

The Shaman we got in to fill a dps slot, didn't know what buff food was, and refused to eat it.

He didn't use any totems and then popped his spectral wolves on the first adds we met, ensuring he couldn't use them when we got to a boss in VH hc.

Splinter

got a great one from the weekend... went and healed the new heroic and noticed the tank was getting slaughtered by the adds.. crits galore on him, i asked him was he defence capped and his reply was "i duno, how much do i need?"...

Notorious

I thought it was a good group until everyone insisted I tank, even though I'm DPS.

Berns

Notorious wrote: »

I thought it was a good group until everyone insisted I tank, even though I'm DPS.

Or end up tankin, even though your rogue dps as the tank can't hold aggro :P

More than likely end's up wipin then if multiple mobs and evasion has wore off :rolleyes:

magicianz

It was a good naxx 10 raid til i had to tank the boss that teleports up to a balcony, summons skellies and back again. Pretty much tanked the boss from 2700k to 700k on my boomkin with average dps >.>

][cEMAN**

I thought it was a good group until...the four horsemen

Anti

I thought i was in a good group untill i looked at the dps meters, any my lock in lvl 70 welfare epics was top on dps...

mayordenis

dubhdara3 wrote: »

The Shaman we got in to fill a dps slot, didn't know what buff food was, and refused to eat it.

He didn't use any totems and then popped his spectral wolves on the first adds we met, ensuring he couldn't use them when we got to a boss in VH hc.

it's like a 3min cooldown - should of had the time to pop them again, and even then you shouldn't be relying on spectral wolves tbh.

Polar101

I thought i was in a good group until the three DKs and a paladin all said they are DPSing.

TheDoc

Anti wrote: »

I thought i was in a good group untill i looked at the dps meters, any my lock in lvl 70 welfare epics was top on dps...

It was a good group, your just a warlock , your better

Hobbes

(happened before)

- Level 80 Hunter asks "How do you make your bow better?"

- Team leader says that you must follow their orders to the letter to complete the instance and didn't even know where Deadmines was (where we were going).

- Healer in the team 3/4 of the way into the instance says "I'm going to level up tailoring now" and hearths out.

- Three members of the team run for an Ore node while in the middle of the fight.

Berns

Hobbes wrote: »

- Three members of the team run for an Ore node while in the middle of the fight.

lol, usually happens in pugs Same for skinnin. Sucks when ur the tank and while mobs comin u gotta pick em up and others in party takin all the leather