Irish Combatants in the Spanish Civil War

dennistuam

should there be some sort of commeration for irish solders who joined on franco side in the spanish civil war
i dont want opinions on the rights and wrongs of fighting for mr franco
it just on a basic level they were soldiers who got no recognition of any sort compared to the men they were fighting against

iceage

Yes.

FiSe

They were disastrous bunch of 'soldiers' and have done more harm to themselves than to the enemy of the Franco's fascists.

mikemac

Weren't they involved in a friendly fire incident?

Ok, that was unfortunate but afterwards I believe they were moved back out of the lines and out of the way by Franco's commanders

Trying to remember my Leaving Cert History on Eoin O'Duffy here

therecklessone

dennistuam wrote: »

it just on a basic level they were soldiers who got no recognition of any sort compared to the men they were fighting against

Should that apply to all soldiers?

Morlar

mikemac wrote: »

Weren't they involved in a friendly fire incident?

They were & this is also covered in the book 'Hitler's Irishmen'. I think the men who fought on either side should be remembered. In the same way I think we should have a memorial in Ireland to british soldiers who died during the rising & war of independence in Ireland. You do not have to agree politically with them to acknowledge their sacrifice.

McArmalite

Morlar wrote: »

They were & this is also covered in the book 'Hitler's Irishmen'. I think the men who fought on either side should be remembered. In the same way I think we should have a memorial in Ireland to british soldiers who died during the rising & war of independence in Ireland. You do not have to agree politically with them to acknowledge their sacrifice.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: If that's the case, surely the men in say, the Luftwaffe, should also be commemorated in England for their " sacrifice " in the battle of britain :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

McArmalite

FiSe wrote: »

They were disastrous bunch of 'soldiers' and have done more harm to themselves than to the enemy of the Franco's fascists.

Yes, if you want to commemorate total incompetence then commemorate O'Duffy's bunch of fools. BTW, is it true like in the lyrics of Viva la Quinta Brigada by Christy Moore that they flew the swastika when sailing away from Dun Laoghaire after been blessed by the bishops ?

" When the Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Dun Laoghaire
A s they sailed beneath the swastika to Spain."

Here's the song, it's one of my favorites. ( Hope I'm not breaking the charter, but it contains clips from the war and it is a military song. Apologies if I am)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qypb3JIZN4

neilled

McArmalite wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: If that's the case, surely the men in say, the Luftwaffe, should also be commemorated in England for their " sacrifice " in the battle of britain :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Believe it or not, there have been some joint commemorations between veterans of both sides of the Battle of Britain (edit, formal ceremony probably not the case, although they have had opposing aviators reunited to share memories for documentaries) in the same way that there was a joint commemoration between the Americans and Japanese veterans of Iwo Jima.

therecklessone

neilled wrote: »

Believe it or not, there have been some joint commemorations between veterans of both sides of the Battle of Britain, in the same way that there was a joint commemoration between the Americans and Japanese veterans of Iwo Jima.

Has there ever been any joint commemoration with former Waffen SS?

neilled

McArmalite wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: If that's the case, surely the men in say, the Luftwaffe, should also be commemorated in England for their " sacrifice " in the battle of britain :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

There's nothing inherently wrong with that in my mind. On both sides were young professional aviators who were sent out by their commanders to do a job -namely gaining control of the airspace over the UK. Both sides pushed their bodies and the machines they flew in to the limits and made the terrible sacrifices demanded of them by their superiors and now their two respective countries are at peace and are allies. For the most part, you could describe the luftwaffe as a relatively honourable part of the german military - although we would consider carpet bombing as a war crime, in the day it was considered a perfectly sound and legitimate method of warefare by all parties to the conflict. Similarly they had relatively little involvment in the holocaust itself, although undoubtedly they benefited from the Nazi policy of slave labour.

A number of years ago American and Japanese veterans were able to hold a joint commemoration on the Island of Iwo Jima one of the bloodiest battles of the pacific where virtually the entire defending force was wiped out and made the attackers pay dearly for every inch of ground they captured. If veterans from this battle can gather together to remember their comrades that fell, then I don't see why others can't.

History is multiple shades of grey, not as black and white as some would like to have it portrayed.

neilled

therecklessone wrote: »

Has there ever been any joint commemoration with former Waffen SS?

Not to my knowledge, afaik the rational being that the Waffen SS was an overtly political force, an arm of the Nazi party as opposed to members of the Kreigsmarine, Luftwaffe and Heer which were the three armed services of the german state - professional men at arms, as opposed to Nazi ideologues who truly believed in "the cause".

Unlike the three regular services, the Waffen SS was one of the organisations identified at Nuremberg as being criminal for involvement in war crimes against civillians, pows and involvement in the holocaust. Its members from what I recall were subject to the various bits of anti nazi legislation that were passed in the aftermath of the war and the only units that got exemptions were the foriegn service units of the Waffen SS who were conscripted into joining.

old boy

can it not be kept on thread, people who have ancestors who fought ? give them their dues.

Zuiderzee

We have a commemoration in place that is not divisive, marks sacrifice, bravery, service and the waste of life in conflicts and respects all traditions, lets stick with that.

There is no need for other official ceremonies.

Since 1986 in the Republic the Sunday nearest July 11 is the National Day of Commemoration Lá Cuimhneacháin Náisiúnta - covers all Irish war dead, in all conflicts - on all sides for all causes.

The official July date in the Republic is designed to be inclusive of all traditions and all conflicts.
Its not devisive or confrontational, it is inclusive and aimed more at reconciling our past.

PS -Title a bit confusing - should it not say Irish soldiers Nationalist side Spanish civil war? I thought it was about the Wild Geese or something, possibly ex Legionaires (who meet informaly round April 30th each year)

Ivory

Sorry pal. Those pesky "rights and wrongs" keep getting in the way don't they? People are always going to express their opinions as to whether soldiers died in a worthy cause before giving props and a war for a fascist dictator just doesn't qualify. The fact that some of the soldiers may have been boneheads and didn't understand that the bishops and the rest of the tools were steering them wrong doesn't make them entitled to any recognition at all except the recognition, to be charitable, that they were dolts and not necessarily bad people. There's a reason the "men they were fighting against' get all the recognition. They were fighting tyranny. Nice try, but forget it.

Zuiderzee

Ivory, I do agree - a lot of people fell into Fascist trap, there were - and are - rights and wrongs. And I do fear history is repeating itself.

There was the legitimate republican Government who were ousted by a military coup on behalf of the landed gentry, establishment and church - supported by Hitler, Musolini.

There was also a lack of aid and assistance from the UK and France.
In fact Franco had a communications relay with North Africa through Gib!
There was also the times they were stabbed in the back by Communists.
The excellent Beevor book 'The Battle for Spain' uncovers a lot of inconvienient truths.

But it was a long time ago - and as with other commemorations that can cause dispute on this Island, the National Day of rememberence is designed to cover all bases.

It was a suggestion for a solution more than anything else.

diverdriver

They remain mostly unremembered because they fought on the wrong 'Fascist' side. They weren't particularly competent either but that's neither here nor there. Franco didn't really want them or frankly need them either. But whatever their motivation their real role was to provide an armed militia for Eoin O'Duffy, who dreamed of returning to Ireland in glory and setting up a fascist regime of his own.

Not surprisingly veterans of the unit kept their heads down in subsequent years.

McArmalite

diverdriver wrote: »

They remain mostly unremembered because they fought on the wrong 'Fascist' side. They weren't particularly competent either but that's neither here nor there. Franco didn't really want them or frankly need them either. But whatever their motivation their real role was to provide an armed militia for Eoin O'Duffy, who dreamed of returning to Ireland in glory and setting up a fascist regime of his own.

Not surprisingly veterans of the unit kept their heads down in subsequent years.

Well since O'Duffy's crowd were on the Franco's side who unfortunately won the war, normally they would be remembered and not the Republicans. As the saying goes, the winners write the history. But I think the reason their largely forgotten about was they were practically a joke. imean their only action was firing at one another in an incident !!! And that's why the vets kept quiet on their return to Ireland, nothing to talk about as they were a joke of an outfit.

McArmalite

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Ivory, I do agree - a lot of people fell into Fascist trap, there were - and are - rights and wrongs. And I do fear history is repeating itself.

There was the legitimate republican Government who were ousted by a military coup on behalf of the landed gentry, establishment and church - supported by Hitler, Musolini.

There was also a lack of aid and assistance from the UK and France.
In fact Franco had a communications relay with North Africa through Gib!
There was also the times they were stabbed in the back by Communists.
The excellent Beevor book 'The Battle for Spain' uncovers a lot of inconvienient truths.

But it was a long time ago - and as with other commemorations that can cause dispute on this Island, the National Day of rememberence is designed to cover all bases.

It was a suggestion for a solution more than anything else.

" There was also a lack of aid and assistance from the UK and France. " And also America.
I vaguely remember watching a documentary on the Spainish Civil War and well basically they said that the outcome of the war was determined by foreign govts. On the fascist side you had Germany and Italy supplying arms and soldiers to the fascists. The Republicans ofcourse sought arms, but the leading arms manufacturers at the time britain and France refused to sell to them giving the excuse they didn't want to interfere etc, though they had no problems selling to other areas and regimes in the world ofcourse. America gave something the same, but it should be pointed out that not wanting to get invovled in Europe's wars was a very strong feeling across all political opinions at the time in the US.
From what I know, Spain did get some support from the USSR, how much I don't know. But the conclusion of the programme was that France, britain and to a lesser extent America wanted to see what they thought as radical leftist Spainish Republicans beaten, regardless if the victors were fascists.

Zuiderzee

In fairness to the Americans there was an active purist pursuit of an isolationist policy at the time.

France and Britain indeed would not support the Republican side until it was far too late, mainly due to the fact that on one hand the anglophile King Alfonso had been deposed, and on the other, a conservative French Government did not want a leftist neighbour - and Republicanism in Spain was associated with the Communists.

marco murphy

I wouldn't say no, but I for one would not take part or want to know anyone taking part.

FiSe

I can imagine, that Britain have seen it as a pure Spanish interim war and they didn't want any escalation of the conflict, this policy of 'peace keeping no matter what the cost' latter led to the Munich crisis.
I don't think that France was able to support Spanish republicans more then they did as french military equipment and army in general was still on the level of 1918. Nevertheless they have supplied aircraft and equipment to the republicans.
But lend and lease was not in place at the time and the money was the main obstacle for the republicans.
Soviet Union supplied tanks, aircraft, arms and troops but not as many as I can imagine the logistical problems. I'm pretty sure there will be some article on it somewhere.

From the other hand Italy and mainly Germany saw this war as a perfect opportunity to test newly developed weapons and military strategy and gain first hand combat experience for their soldiers and officers. Something you can't get on the training field.

neilled

The soviet union also insisted on payment in gold reserves for training and supplies given to the republic.

cyrusdvirus

Ivory wrote: »

Sorry pal. Those pesky "rights and wrongs" keep getting in the way don't they? People are always going to express their opinions as to whether soldiers died in a worthy cause before giving props and a war for a fascist dictator just doesn't qualify. The fact that some of the soldiers may have been boneheads and didn't understand that the bishops and the rest of the tools were steering them wrong doesn't make them entitled to any recognition at all except the recognition, to be charitable, that they were dolts and not necessarily bad people. There's a reason the "men they were fighting against' get all the recognition. They were fighting tyranny. Nice try, but forget it.

Ok, i was gonna stay quiet until i saw this.......

But your attitude and bonehead comments about the men who fought for Franco being dolts is symptomatic of the thought processes in this country today.

60 years ago the catholic church was not the church it is today, it was the power behind the state. If the church said do it, then you went out and did it. There was a real power in the catholic church in those times and to be honest, I find comments like yours to be insulting.

The church was backing Franco, as a result of the attacks on clerical orders by the (Stalin backed) left wing Popular front, and the church played on the catholic ethos of most Irish people at the time. There were over 4000 clerics/priests murdered in the first weeks of the war and this is what gave the church the ability to motivate the 7000 men who volunteered.

Remember, Ireland is one of the few countries where the supporters of Franco outnumbered the supporters of his republican opposition.

neilled

gatecrash wrote: »

Ok, i was gonna stay quiet until i saw this.......

But your attitude and bonehead comments about the men who fought for Franco being dolts is symptomatic of the thought processes in this country today.

60 years ago the catholic church was not the church it is today, it was the power behind the state. If the church said do it, then you went out and did it. There was a real power in the catholic church in those times and to be honest, I find comments like yours to be insulting.

The church was backing Franco, as a result of the attacks on clerical orders by the (Stalin backed) left wing Popular front, and the church played on the catholic ethos of most Irish people at the time. There were over 4000 clerics/priests murdered in the first weeks of the war and this is what gave the church the ability to motivate the 7000 men who volunteered.

Remember, Ireland is one of the few countries where the supporters of Franco outnumbered the supporters of his republican opposition.

There is a certain irony that at the time, more people in Ireland would have backed franco and the blueshirts than those who fought on the republican side and latter became commemorated in song and in story. without wanting to undermine the sacrifices made, the amount of literature about the Irish contribution to the International Brigades would make you think there was a battalion or so rather than the connolly column and others scattered throughout the rest. The Roman catholic church in spain saw itself as being synonymous with the state.

McArmalite

neilled wrote: »

There is a certain irony that at the time, more people in Ireland would have backed franco and the blueshirts than those who fought on the republican side and latter became commemorated in song and in story. without wanting to undermine the sacrifices made, the amount of literature about the Irish contribution to the International Brigades would make you think there was a battalion or so rather than the connolly column and others scattered throughout the rest. The Roman catholic church in spain saw itself as being synonymous with the state.

Well the reason most people may have supported Franco etc was because the Catholic Church were to the fore supporting the fascists " When the Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Dun Laoghaire, As they sailed beneath the swastika to Spain." Ofcourse the media, Irish Indepenent,Times etc ofcourse supported the right wing. Not that sure about Fainna Fail, they probably supported Franco but they were lukewarm enough about it ( pretending to hold onto their 'Republican' party bit ), though ofcourse Fine Gael where all for them, hence their still tainted with the blueshirts tag.

FiSe

Is that 7000 men correct?
It's a quite a lot of people by any standard and even in today's Ireland, 7000 is a large army.

Fascist parties are, or were, on the right wing of political spectrum, so no surprise, that catholic church were supportive to this movement as opposed to left wing Republicanism.

Ironically, left wing National Socialist Part of Germany was supportive of this movement as well...

cyrusdvirus

FiSe wrote: »

Is that 7000 men correct?
It's a quite a lot of people by any standard and even in today's Ireland, 7000 is a large army.

Fascist parties are, or were, on the right wing of political spectrum, so no surprise, that catholic church were supportive to this movement as opposed to left wing Republicanism.

Ironically, left wing National Socialist Part of Germany was supportive of this movement as well...

7000 volunteered, 700 were selected.

diverdriver

For those interested in subject. I recommend this book, which I read recently ^ Othen C. Franco's International Brigades (Reportage Press, London 2008) pp.111-112. It covers the Irish role quite well and the fact that Franco didn't want them really but used their presence to to help bring on side rival 'Carlist' groups. In fact the Wikipedia article on the subject seems to rely heavily on that book. But as ever books are better than the internet. So go read it.

In contrast I read another book at the same time, which detailed the experiences of a veteran of the Republican side, whose name escapes me. (The book was a loan.) It was a bit tedious as left wingers books tend to be. But based on the both books it is clear that there was greater support for Franco in Ireland than for the Republic. Something which may be a little uncomfortable for many since. Considering later history with fascism and all. But then again the left were always better at dressing up their 'history'.

Incidentally why the title change? OP

Hagar

I changed the title because it was misleading.
"Franco Irish Soldiers" would be Irish Soldiers associated with France not Spain.
"Hispano Irish indicates" would be Irish Soldiers associated with Spain.
Either way they were Irish combatants as opposed to Irish Soldiers ie not Irish Army.

Perhaps a better title would be "Irish Combatants in the Spanish Civil War". I'll change it to that for clarity.

Ivory

gatecrash wrote: »

Ok, i was gonna stay quiet until i saw this.......

But your attitude and bonehead comments about the men who fought for Franco being dolts is symptomatic of the thought processes in this country today.

60 years ago the catholic church was not the church it is today, it was the power behind the state. If the church said do it, then you went out and did it. There was a real power in the catholic church in those times and to be honest, I find comments like yours to be insulting.

The church was backing Franco, as a result of the attacks on clerical orders by the (Stalin backed) left wing Popular front, and the church played on the catholic ethos of most Irish people at the time. There were over 4000 clerics/priests murdered in the first weeks of the war and this is what gave the church the ability to motivate the 7000 men who volunteered.

Remember, Ireland is one of the few countries where the supporters of Franco outnumbered the supporters of his republican opposition.

Not sure I understand your argument here. Is it supposed to be some sort of clincher that Nationalist supporters outnumbered Republicans in Ireland and that the church was all-powerful therefore support for Franco was justfied? Both weak claims. And for somebody with no compunction about getting personally nasty, you demonstrate remarkably thin skin. "Insulting" to denigrate fascists indeed. What sort of person are you?

cyrusdvirus

Ivory wrote: »

Not sure I understand your argument here. Is it supposed to be some sort of clincher that Nationalist supporters outnumbered Republicans in Ireland and that the church was all-powerful therefore support for Franco was justfied? Both weak claims. And for somebody with no compunction about getting personally nasty, you demonstrate remarkably thin skin. "Insulting" to denigrate fascists indeed. What sort of person are you?

Personally nasty? Show me where i got personally nasty in my post.

As for your point about support for Franco being justified, i was pointing out that they were different times, and the disdain that the church is regarded wth now was non existant. For a family to have a priest in the family was a big thing, for a priest to make a call to arms from the altar was a big thing....this was regarded almost as a crusade by the men who went across to fight.

The men who did go over were not facists, just men who were answering a call from the church....ill informed, maybe, naive, possibly......no need to call them dolts though......

They were fighting against a communist backed force, and facism wasn't seen as the big bad dog it is seen as today. You have to remember, this was 60 years ago, and whether we like it or not, people thought differently then.

I think you are looking through rose tinted galsses at the republican forces, purely because of their name....if they had won, Spain would have become a communist country. Not too much that's republican about that form my way of looking.

As for what sort of person am i? No idea what you are on about.

MarchDub

McArmalite wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: If that's the case, surely the men in say, the Luftwaffe, should also be commemorated in England for their " sacrifice " in the battle of britain :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

LOL!!!But so true - let's all just get together and celebrate very soldier, every war, every "blood sacrifice" - jeez would we get busy or what???

Sure would be a cure for unemployment...

Ivory

"Personally nasty? Show me where i got personally nasty in my post."

Here:

"your attitude and bonehead comments "

cyrusdvirus

Ivory wrote: »

"Personally nasty? Show me where i got personally nasty in my post."

Here:

"your attitude and bonehead comments "

that wasn't personally nasty....just factual!

Hagar

Would you two stop fighting or flirting, I'm not sure which is going on.

Ivory

Alright. Fair enough. Gatecrash, let's call it quits. The grown ups will send us to bed without our supper, we're not careful.

cyrusdvirus

Ivory wrote: »

Alright. Fair enough. Gatecrash, let's call it quits. The grown ups will send us to bed without our supper, we're not careful.

Fair enough.... I'm a growing boy, i need my food!!

We'll agree to disagree.

skooterblue

McArmalite wrote: »

Yes, if you want to commemorate total incompetence then commemorate O'Duffy's bunch of fools. BTW, is it true like in the lyrics of Viva la Quinta Brigada by Christy Moore that they flew the swastika when sailing away from Dun Laoghaire after been blessed by the bishops ?

" When the Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Dun Laoghaire
A s they sailed beneath the swastika to Spain."

a bit of a technicality there, a song is just that, its not primary source of history. Written by a man who wasnt even there at the time so he didnt even witness it. This man's time would be served getting his shovel if he wanted to go to work instead of other shennigans, he has been associated with

gizmo555

McArmalite wrote: »

Yes, if you want to commemorate total incompetence then commemorate O'Duffy's bunch of fools. BTW, is it true like in the lyrics of Viva la Quinta Brigada by Christy Moore that they flew the swastika when sailing away from Dun Laoghaire after been blessed by the bishops ?

" When the Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Dun Laoghaire
A s they sailed beneath the swastika to Spain."

Coming late to this thread, but it is true that at least one of the vessels used to transport these men, the SS Urundi, was German and accordingly flew the German flag of the time, which included the swastika. To be accurate, the Urundi picked up O'Duffy volunteers in Galway Bay not Dún Laoghaire, where they were transferred from a smaller vessel in a hair raising operation during strong gales.

If you are interested in the details check out RA Stradling's The Irish and the Spanish Civil War, 1936-39. You can access the first 60 odd pages online at Google Books, which include full details of the recruitment and embarkation of O'Duffy's brigade:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=_1tDg4TxhsQC&dq=r.a.+stradling+civil+war&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=avfAzUSeNo&sig=r2ihq_rJP3bpHaOTJHgFC3q8oxE&hl=en&ei=kuBmSoiUEd6NjAfmxPibAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

As Stradling (Professor of History in the University of Wales) makes clear, most of these men joined up in a good faith response to accurate reports of murderous suppression of the Catholic church in Republican areas. Using the benefit of a highly distorted hindsight to characterise them all as fascists and Nazis is grossly unfair.

dennistuam

i did nt hear cristy singing about the only state leader offering his symapies to the german people after lossing the furher
or the the ss ascot turned away with Jews

McArmalite

gizmo555 wrote: »

Coming late to this thread, but it is true that at least one of the vessels used to transport these men, the SS Urundi, was German and accordingly flew the German flag of the time, which included the swastika. To be accurate, the Urundi picked up O'Duffy volunteers in Galway Bay not Dún Laoghaire, where they were transferred from a smaller vessel in a hair raising operation during strong gales.

If you are interested in the details check out RA Stradling's The Irish and the Spanish Civil War, 1936-39. You can access the first 60 odd pages online at Google Books, which include full details of the recruitment and embarkation of O'Duffy's brigade:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=_1tDg4TxhsQC&dq=r.a.+stradling+civil+war&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=avfAzUSeNo&sig=r2ihq_rJP3bpHaOTJHgFC3q8oxE&hl=en&ei=kuBmSoiUEd6NjAfmxPibAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

As Stradling (Professor of History in the University of Wales) makes clear, most of these men joined up in a good faith response to accurate reports of murderous suppression of the Catholic church in Republican areas. Using the benefit of a highly distorted hindsight to characterise them all as fascists and Nazis is grossly unfair.

" most of these men joined up in a good faith response to accurate reports of murderous suppression of the Catholic church in Republican areas. Using the benefit of a highly distorted hindsight to characterise them all as fascists and Nazis is grossly unfair. " Well you’ve made a fair point their gizmo. Undoubtably their motivation was reports of murderous suppression of the Catholic church etc. Their motivation was a lot more well meaning than supporting Fascism.

McArmalite

dennistuam wrote: »

i did nt hear cristy singing about the only state leader offering his symapies to the german people after lossing the furher
or the the ss ascot turned away with Jews

No, and he didn't sing about the atrocites like Dresden and Cologne or the mass murders and rapes of the Red Army or the conduct of the Japanese to the POW's in the east or whether the German's interned here like the Guinness or the women, or who may have killed Micheal Jackson or the.... or the.....or the....:rolleyes:

gizmo555

McArmalite wrote: »

Well you’ve made a fair point their gizmo. Undoubtably their motivation was reports of murderous suppression of the Catholic church etc. Their motivation was a lot more well meaning than supporting Fascism.

To clarify my response to your original question, the answer is no, the O'Duffy volunteers did not "fly the swastika" as they left Ireland - the German ship they sailed on did, but this does not make them Nazis any more than any one else who traveled by German ship in the pre-war era.

The reference in the song is at best ignorant and at worst mischievous. You also have to remember that in 1937 the swastika did not carry all the negative historical connotations it does now. At the time in Dublin, for example, you had the Swastika Laundry, whose logo including a swastika which was still visible on their chimney in Ballsbridge well into the 1980s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika_Laundry

McArmalite

gizmo555 wrote: »

To clarify my response to your original question, the answer is no, the O'Duffy volunteers did not "fly the swastika" as they left Ireland - the German ship they sailed on did, but this does not make them Nazis any more than any one else who traveled by German ship in the pre-war era.

The reference in the song is at best ignorant and at worst mischievous. You also have to remember that in 1937 the swastika did not carry all the negative historical connotations it does now. At the time in Dublin, for example, you had the Swastika Laundry, whose logo including a swastika which was still visible on their chimney in Ballsbridge well into the 1980s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika_Laundry

Excellent gizmo.

Morlar

This website lists many of the priests and nuns killed by the leftists/ communists in this war ;

http://newsaints.faithweb.com/martyrs/MSPC01.htm

Apparently among the spanish leftist groups the only one to restrain from attacking the church were basque seperatists.

This wiki article also has some information on this The Red Terror

Toll on Clergy

In the course of the Red Terror, 6,832 members of the Catholic clergy, 20% percent of the nation's clergy[26], were killed.[4] The figures break down the as follows: Some 283 women religious were killed. Some of them were badly tortured.[6] 13 bishops were killed from the dioceses of Siguenza Lleida, Cuenca, Barbastro, Segorbe,Jaen, Ciudad Real, Almeria, Guadix, Barcelona, Teruel and the auxiliary of Tarragona.[6] Aware of the dangers, they all decided to remain in their cities. I cannot go, only here is my responsibility, whatever may happen, so said the Bishop of Cuenca.[6] In addition 4,172 diocesan priests, 2,364 monks and friars, among them 259 Claretians, 226 Franciscans, 204 Piarists, 176 Brothers of Mary, 165 Christian Brothers, 155 Augustinians, 132 Dominicans, and 114 Jesuits were killed.[27] In some dioceses, the number of secular priests killed are overwhelming:

* In Barbastro 123 of 140 priests were killed[6], about 88 percent of the secular clergy were murdered, 66 percent
* In Lleida, 270 of 410 priests were killed.[6] about 62 percent
* In Tortosa, 44 percent of the secular priests were killed.[4]
* In Toledo 286 of 600 priests were killed.[6]
* In the dioceses of Malaga, Menorca and Segorbe, about half of the priests were killed"[4] [6]

In 2001 the Catholic Church beatified hundreds of Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War[28] and beatified 498 more on October 28, 2007.[29]

In October 2008, the Spanish newspaper La Razon published an article on the number of people murdered for practicing Catholicism."[30]

May 1931: 100 church buildings are burned while firefighters refuse to extinguish the flames.

1932: 3000 Jesuits expelled. Church buildings burned with impunity in 7 cities.

1934: 33 priests murdered in the Asturias Revolution.

1936: just a day before July 18, the day the war started, there already have been 17 clergymen murdered.

From July 18 to August 1: 861 clergymen murdered in 2 weeks.

August 1936: 2077 clergymen murdered, more than 70 a day. 10 of them bishops.

Septiembre 14: 3400 clergymen murdered during the first stages of the war.

1939: end of the war; a total of 7000 clergymen and 3000 religious people murdered for practicing Catholicism.

___________

Hardly surprising in this context that some Irish people signed up to fight against the communists. What would be surprising to me is that more did not do the same. That fact does not mean they were 'fascists' just trying to redress the balance back in favour of law and order and against persecution by communists of the church.

Dyr

Given that most of O'Duffy's lot spent a good deal of their time in Spain laid up with the galloping trots could we dedicate a public toilet to their memory?

Be interesting to see what backgrounds o'duffys' volunteers had though.

neilled

Morlar wrote: »

This website lists many of the priests and nuns killed by the leftists/ communists in this war ;

http://newsaints.faithweb.com/martyrs/MSPC01.htm

Apparently among the spanish leftist groups the only one to restrain from attacking the church were basque seperatists.

This wiki article also has some information on this The Red Terror

Toll on Clergy

In the course of the Red Terror, 6,832 members of the Catholic clergy, 20% percent of the nation's clergy[26], were killed.[4] The figures break down the as follows: Some 283 women religious were killed. Some of them were badly tortured.[6] 13 bishops were killed from the dioceses of Siguenza Lleida, Cuenca, Barbastro, Segorbe,Jaen, Ciudad Real, Almeria, Guadix, Barcelona, Teruel and the auxiliary of Tarragona.[6] Aware of the dangers, they all decided to remain in their cities. I cannot go, only here is my responsibility, whatever may happen, so said the Bishop of Cuenca.[6] In addition 4,172 diocesan priests, 2,364 monks and friars, among them 259 Claretians, 226 Franciscans, 204 Piarists, 176 Brothers of Mary, 165 Christian Brothers, 155 Augustinians, 132 Dominicans, and 114 Jesuits were killed.[27] In some dioceses, the number of secular priests killed are overwhelming:

* In Barbastro 123 of 140 priests were killed[6], about 88 percent of the secular clergy were murdered, 66 percent
* In Lleida, 270 of 410 priests were killed.[6] about 62 percent
* In Tortosa, 44 percent of the secular priests were killed.[4]
* In Toledo 286 of 600 priests were killed.[6]
* In the dioceses of Malaga, Menorca and Segorbe, about half of the priests were killed"[4] [6]

In 2001 the Catholic Church beatified hundreds of Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War[28] and beatified 498 more on October 28, 2007.[29]

In October 2008, the Spanish newspaper La Razon published an article on the number of people murdered for practicing Catholicism."[30]

May 1931: 100 church buildings are burned while firefighters refuse to extinguish the flames.

1932: 3000 Jesuits expelled. Church buildings burned with impunity in 7 cities.

1934: 33 priests murdered in the Asturias Revolution.

1936: just a day before July 18, the day the war started, there already have been 17 clergymen murdered.

From July 18 to August 1: 861 clergymen murdered in 2 weeks.

August 1936: 2077 clergymen murdered, more than 70 a day. 10 of them bishops.

Septiembre 14: 3400 clergymen murdered during the first stages of the war.

1939: end of the war; a total of 7000 clergymen and 3000 religious people murdered for practicing Catholicism.

___________

Hardly surprising in this context that some Irish people signed up to fight against the communists. What would be surprising to me is that more did not do the same. That fact does not mean they were 'fascists' just trying to redress the balance back in favour of law and order and against persecution by communists of the church.

Yes but to quote Anthony Beevor (not really a tree hugging lefty) "Liberal Catholics abroad were to state that the killing of priests was no worse than the rights killing of left wingers in the name of God" and the bishops murmered not a peep when "the nationalists shot sixteen of the Basque Clergy including the arch priest of Mondragon".

And the purging of "reds and atheists" continued for years afterwards.

It should also be noted that the Catholic Church weren't only religious, they were also extremely tied up in politics, having openly backed Giles Robbles in 1931 and received substantial state subsidy despite the fact that 20% of the population went to mass (as low as 5% in some areas) and the bishops kicked up a fuss when the separation of church and state was threatened.

Thus the concept of innocents being persecuted solely for their faith is not entirely true and out of a total eclesiastical population of around 115,000 or so, only 7000 were killed. Note, this is much higher than the 20,000 than the nationalists touted during the war.

I'm not condoning what happened, far from it, however if you play in politics and civil war breaks out and you choose sides, then you become a target. Thats what happened.

gizmo555

neilled wrote: »

Yes but to quote Anthony Beevor (not really a tree hugging lefty) "Liberal Catholics abroad were to state that the killing of priests was no worse than the rights killing of left wingers in the name of God" and the bishops murmered not a peep when "the nationalists shot sixteen of the Basque Clergy including the arch priest of Mondragon".

And the purging of "reds and atheists" continued for years afterwards.

If you've read Beevor's excellent work you'll know that the Spanish Civil War was very far from the black and white, pure good vs pure evil conflict it's often simplistically viewed as these days (not least by Christy Moore!) I would urge you to go back and read carefully Beevor's introduction to his book - I give some relevant extracts below (emphasis is mine).

“It is difficult for younger generations to imagine what life was really like in that age of totalitarian conflict. Collectivist ideals, whether those of armies, political youth movements or of trade unions have virtually all disintegrated. The passions and hatreds for such an era are a world away from the safe, civilian environment of health and safety in which we live today. The past is indeed ‘another country’. . . . This perhaps is why it is unwise to try to judge the terrible conflict of 70 years ago with the liberal values and attitudes we accept today as normal.”

“Republican propaganda during the civil war always emphasized that that its government was legally appointed one after the elections of February 1936. This is true, but one has to pose an important question. If the coalition of the right had won those elections would the left have accepted the legitimate result? One strongly suspects not. The socialist leader Largo Caballero threatened openly before the elections that if the right won, it would be open civil war.”

“One must also not forget Largo Caballero’s declaration that he wanted a Republic without class warfare, but to achieve that a political class had to disappear. This was an obvious echo of Lenin’s openly stated intention to eliminate the bourgeoisie. But would a victory of the left in say 1937 or 1938 have led to a comparable scale of executions as under Franco? It is of course impossible to tell, and one cannot judge entirely by the Russian civil war but it is still a question which cannot be brushed aside. The winner in any civil war . . . is bound to kill more because of the cycle of fear and hate.”

To come back to the OP's question, in this context, the men who volunteered with O'Duffy do deserve our respect, judged by the standards of their times. Certainly, much more so than, say, Irishmen of today who volunteer to fight with the British army in an illegal war in Iraq becaue the Irish army doesn't happen to be recruiting now and they fancy a military career. By comparison, these guys are mere mercenaries.

neilled

gizmo555 wrote: »

If you've read Beevor's excellent work you'll know that the Spanish Civil War was very far from the black and white, pure good vs pure evil conflict it's often simplistically viewed as these days (not least by Christy Moore!) I would urge you to go back and read carefully Beevor's introduction to his book - I give some relevant extracts below (emphasis is mine).

“It is difficult for younger generations to imagine what life was really like in that age of totalitarian conflict. Collectivist ideals, whether those of armies, political youth movements or of trade unions have virtually all disintegrated. The passions and hatreds for such an era are a world away from the safe, civilian environment of health and safety in which we live today. The past is indeed ‘another country’. . . . This perhaps is why it is unwise to try to judge the terrible conflict of 70 years ago with the liberal values and attitudes we accept today as normal.”

“Republican propaganda during the civil war always emphasized that that its government was legally appointed one after the elections of February 1936. This is true, but one has to pose an important question. If the coalition of the right had won those elections would the left have accepted the legitimate result? One strongly suspects not. The socialist leader Largo Caballero threatened openly before the elections that if the right won, it would be open civil war.”

“One must also not forget Largo Caballero’s declaration that he wanted a Republic without class warfare, but to achieve that a political class had to disappear. This was an obvious echo of Lenin’s openly stated intention to eliminate the bourgeoisie. But would a victory of the left in say 1937 or 1938 have led to a comparable scale of executions as under Franco? It is of course impossible to tell, and one cannot judge entirely by the Russian civil war but it is still a question which cannot be brushed aside. The winner in any civil war . . . is bound to kill more because of the cycle of fear and hate.”

To come back to the OP's question, in this context, the men who volunteered with O'Duffy do deserve our respect, judged by the standards of their times. Certainly, much more so than, say, Irishmen of today who volunteer to fight with the British army in an illegal war in Iraq becaue the Irish army doesn't happen to be recruiting now and they fancy a military career. By comparison, these guys are mere mercenaries.

That is part of the point I'm trying to make - the post that I replied to was wailing about the poor religious orders "persecuted for their faith" - these organisations were heavily involved in politics and openly backed the right in the politics of the day and the nationalists wrapped themselves in Catholicism. When war broke out it was obvious what was goin to happen.

I have read beevors book however my intention was to address the specific point about the suffering of the religious orders during the civil war, nothing else, however I do agree with the concept that it was far from the "good vs bad" that its portrayed as. However, people are simplistic and need a simple collective memory and history that they can tell.

Michael P

dennistuam wrote: »

should there be some sort of commemoration for irish solders who joined on franco side in the spanish civil war

Just to get back to the original question, I don't know of any memorials to anyone on Franco's side, but there is a memorial to Kit Conway, who was killed at the Battle of Jarama fighting with the International Brigade. It's at Burncourt, Co. Tipperary - see: http://www.irishwarmemorials.ie/html/place-details.php?show=231
Michael P.