Corporal Punishment in School 1960-70s

LegacyUser

The titel makes it clear I suppose. I don't want to try to compare to the terrible abuse suffered by children in industrial schools but the recent publicity has brought back many memories of corporal punishment in schools which bordered on abuse.
I had been able to put this in the past and not really think about it. Recently, with work colleagues, many were recalling the beatings they received and they seem to have the view that 'it did them no harm'. For me however, the memory of those punishments reopens memories I would prefer to forget. i cannot treat it like my colleagues. I didn't even talk about it as I feel so ashamed.
I don't know why I seem to be so affected while other s can just let it lie. I know there is probably not too many people who went to school in the 1960s who make use of computers and internet but I wonder if any one else from that era has the same difficulty as me in putting it in the past.
Just to put it in context, i have adult children and would be ashamed to tell them how I was trated as a school child.

LegacyUser

I was born in 1973 and I remember getting beaten with a stick at national school. I also remember my parents slapping us or beating us with a stick or leather belt. I don't think I would describe my feelings on it as shame but it has without a doubt effected my confidence and self esteem as an adult. The school part I have largely forgotten about but the beatings and demeaning comments from my parents still affect me. I think beating a young child in or out of school is going to have an affect on them as adults whether they realize it or not. I can't really give you any advice rather than to try counselling. When you mention that you have feelings of great shame I would think that it is affecting you very badly and that there is a lot of repressed emotions that need addressing. Do you think that the child in you somehow thinks that you deserved this treatment and that's why the feelings of shame? I don't know but if it's affecting you so badly you should definitely talk to somebody professional. There is no shame in that, believe me! Hope you get through it ok!

LegacyUser

I was born in the late 60's.

Being beaten at home with a wooden spoon, hand etc in temper was routine and the same in school.

I dont know why some can shrug it off and some dwell on it. I have mixed feelings on it. I thought it was normal and never questioned it until lately when I see kids misbehaving in public and yet their parents don't clatter them.

This makes me angry. I feel the kids today get away with murder and are not properly disciplined. My nieces and nephews can run amok and speak over their parents and everyone acts as though this is normal.....

When my sister speaks of how we were brought up she says it was borderline abuse and dodgy. But to me it is normal for someone to strike you in anger if you have done something wrong. I have trouble understanding how kids could be brought up without knowing not to cross the line.

I think those were just different days and probably neither now or then is right. Somewhere in between would be a happy medium. This generation being brought up with no discipline have no boundaries in life and are selfish and spoiled. But us lot were polite, seen and not heard and lived in a far less child centric world.

Its gone too far now, but we cant turn back the clock either.....

ManOfMystery

Unregistered wrote: »

But to me it is normal for someone to strike you in anger if you have done something wrong. .

This is the epicentre of the issue, it's not normal. I know that's what you've been exposed to but if the majority of children are being shown that a loss of control/anger is ok, then that's what they'll emulate.

oil painting

Hi i was born in 78, I have no experience in school but was beaten badly at home by my mother and she was beaten by her parents too.

The previous un registered poster is a prime example of how you end up if you do not break the cycle,

Many people who deny the abuse they suffered themselves tend to have the attitude that it is condonable to use physical force to discipline a child.

I personaly believe we have much more skills emotionally within us to deal with children rather than hitting them and loosing control of ourselves,


the future way is to have zero tolerance for it, when you have a problem with an adult you dont strike them to make a point,

Children are smart intelligent beings and if treated with respect you will get respect back.

Having an attitude that a child deserves a good clatter is not respecting a person and their boundaries no matter how old they are.


I had major issues because i was bullied-physically and verbally at home, i was terrified i would hit my own kids so i went to therapy to try and get to the root of my pain so i could be emotionally stable,

It is fairly obvious for anyone who has issues today that there are issues in the past that have been repressed and are having an impact in life now.

Anyone who denies abuse is suffering inside somehow even if they dont admit it,

OP you will find that where you can admit it and acknowledge it to yourself -others find it too painful and develop a defense mechanism, but it is not you who is the weak one for acknowledging it rather they are the weak ones who carry on the deep rooted denial and pain but it can come across as if they are strong.


IMO.

LegacyUser

I was born in 1979 and suffered at the hands of both teachers and parents. Not brutal but still some left physial marks that I still carry today so it's not good really. It's humiliating and degrading and I will never understand why a parent would want their child to feel like that.
In truth I feel they are right, it did no harm, BUT it definitely did no good either so that's where the argument about turning me into what I am today falls down. All I learned was that you simply didn't get caught the next time and that violence is the only way to deal with frustration. It took along time to come to come to terms with that. I think about it more than I should and I have vowed that if I ever have kids in the future, never to resort to hitting to deal with my anger/frustration or whatever.
My mother (who only stopped hitting me when I hit her back once - which I'm not proud of) constantly says that when I have my own I'll be different but somehow I doubt that, my views on this are quite strong and I have yet to change my mind on the issue. There's very little you can do about what happened in the past other than not to let it affect your future. Life is an experience to say the least and I suppose we all need to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and make sure we learn from it.

LegacyUser

hi i think this is a very interesting issue - i was born early 70's, was beaten / caned by the nuns at school and at home we knew not to get on the wrong side of our mother, or the wooden spoon came out - I dont think it did me any harm. I agree with earlier poster that it galls me to see young kids these days behave appallingly and not be corrected properly on it (and interestingly I was listening to radio show last night about how teachers said they have no control on their classrooms anymore because kids 'know their rights' and push the limits with teachers).
This (corporal punishment) is too much of a grey area for it to deemed 100% wrong - like anything, too much too often is not good. I dont understand this thing of trying to 'reason' verbally for example, with an out-of-control, spoilt 5 year old when its throwing a tantrum. At some point, reasoning gets a parent nowhere. A sharp smack on the legs will teach there is pain to be associated with unaccepted bad behaviour. Eventually the child realises.. 'well if i do that, i get a smack that doesnt feel nice..' . I dont know, its a tough debate!

BroomBurner

I think there's a big difference between getting a smack if you're out of line, and some cane-happy teacher/parent. Even as a kid in primary school, I knew the difference. We had one teacher who was very physical and every child in the school knew that this teacher was psycho and it wasn't condoned. However, getting a smack from your parents for being disrespectful, or seriously misbehaving, shouldn't have any negative effect.

oil painting

I totally disagree with the previous posters on how children these days are out of hand or more cheeky or they are not disciplined correctly,

Children these days are more confident and stand up for themselves, this is a positive thing, the old ways of hitting or beating have gone out with the stone age,

it is the responsibility of us adults to find better ways to discipline children today, and if physical force of any kind is the answer then there is something seriously wrong, society condoned the cane in schools years ago there seems to be some of that attitude left if anyone that smacks there kids as if everyone is doing it and it ok or something,

Any therapist will tell you there is a zero tolerance for it no a days.
there is never an excuse to hit, smack, or beat a child,


No human has the right to touch another human being regardless of the actions of the child and as adults we should find alternative ways to discipline children,

Super nanny never hits or smacks but she has skills to deal with any disruptive child no matter how dysfunctional, its these skills that need to branch out into society,

It seems that the people who were smacked and say that it never did them any harm are the very ones condoning the act.

keefg

BroomBurner wrote: »

I think there's a big difference between getting a smack if you're out of line, and some cane-happy teacher/parent. Even as a kid in primary school, I knew the difference. We had one teacher who was very physical and every child in the school knew that this teacher was psycho and it wasn't condoned. However, getting a smack from your parents for being disrespectful, or seriously misbehaving, shouldn't have any negative effect.

I agree with you BroomBurner. As another poster has mentioned kids today pretty much do as they please without fear of any punishment. I think teachers have a hell of a job and don't envy it one bit.

All a kid has to worry about now when they misbehave is being told "Don't do it again".....yeah, that'll work :rolleyes:.

oil painting wrote: »

I totally disagree with the previous posters on how children these days are out of hand or more cheeky or they are not disciplined correctly,

Children these days are more confident and stand up for themselves, this is a positive thing, the old ways of hitting or beating have gone out with the stone age,

it is the responsibility of us adults to find better ways to discipline children today, and if physical force of any kind is the answer then there is something seriously wrong, society condoned the cane in schools years ago there seems to be some of that attitude left if anyone that smacks there kids as if everyone is doing it and it ok or something,

Any therapist will tell you there is a zero tolerance for it no a days.
there is never an excuse to hit, smack, or beat a child,


No human has the right to touch another human being regardless of the actions of the child and as adults we should find alternative ways to discipline children,

Super nanny never hits or smacks but she has skills to deal with any disruptive child no matter how dysfunctional, its these skills that need to branch out into society,

It seems that the people who were smacked and say that it never did them any harm are the very ones condoning the act.

Sorry oil painting......I disagree with every single sentence you typed there.

LegacyUser

Unregistered wrote: »

at home we knew not to get on the wrong side of our mother, or the wooden spoon came out - I dont think it did me any harm.

Although I was never really hit with it, there was a time we lived in fear of the wooden spoon. It was more of a symbol, than anything else.

Unregistered wrote: »

interestingly I was listening to radio show last night about how teachers said they have no control on their classrooms anymore because kids 'know their rights' and push the limits with teachers).

Teachers have gotten attacked by kids, but they will be sacked if they hit back.

Unregistered wrote: »

I dont understand this thing of trying to 'reason' verbally for example, with an out-of-control, spoilt 5 year old when its throwing a tantrum. At some point, reasoning gets a parent nowhere. A sharp smack on the legs will teach there is pain to be associated with unaccepted bad behaviour. Eventually the child realises.. 'well if i do that, i get a smack that doesnt feel nice..' . I dont know, its a tough debate!

Agreed. Oil Painting: this "Super Nanny" you speak of... who are they? A person, or a fictional character? Me thinks this "Super Nanny" ensured she only got well behaved kids, and not the social misfits who see nothing wrong with smacking people for silly reasons.

oil painting

keefg wrote: »

I agree with you BroomBurner. As another poster has mentioned kids today pretty much do as they please without fear of any punishment. I think teachers have a hell of a job and don't envy it one bit.

All a kid has to worry about now when they misbehave is being told "Don't do it again".....yeah, that'll work :rolleyes:.



Sorry oil painting......I disagree with every single sentence you typed there.

It is such a generalization to state that kids today pretty much do as they please without fear of any punishment, teachers have a tough job because classrooms are over crowded and their job is not paid or funded well enough. It is not the childrens fault.

Its the old moaning of kids today! there is nothing wrong with kids today!

if a child mis behaves there should be consequences but not punishment, and fear is not an effective way of disciplining a child,



Again we have to open our minds up to alternative methods of discipline.

LegacyUser

I've watched super nanny a couple of times and no she's not fictional. she is very impressive actually. She deals with very disruptive kids and she does a great job of teaching them the consequences of their bad behavior without physical or verbal punishment.
I would hope that if I ever had kids I would be like her(well not in image, just behavior).

We got caned and belted a lot in my family and I would say that we all suffer with lack of confidence these days , whereas my aunt never got physical with hers and they were lovely children who have turned into confident capable adults.

I agree that many kids today have no respect for their parents, but that's their parents fault for not starting with proper discipline from day one and only realizing when they are 6 or 7 that they are naughty. Many parents are lazy when it comes to disciplining small children. They get fed up trying and find it easier to let them have their way, and that's where the problem is. How are you suddenly going to change a child who doesn't listen to the word NO.

There are certainly better ways to discipline a child than with physical punishment, but not all parents are prepared to put the work in.

deisemum

I was born in 1964 and went to primary school in the late 60's/mid 70's.

I went to a rural school that had the "Mrs" who "taught" junior infants to second class and the "Master" who was a paedophile and taught 3rd to 6th class.

I cannot remember a day when some pupil wasn't caned or punched. Most girls from 3rd class up were sexually assaulted by the master. Back then teaching was seen as a profession unlike nowadays where it's just seen as a job, teachers were seen as "the pillars of the community" which were meant to be respected.

It was also a time if you went home and told your parents that you were caned even in the wrong then most pupils got walloped from their parents. Most parents would have torn strips of their children if they admitted to being hit in school. Those that didn't were the exception, my brother in law told his mother how he was hit in school one day, well his mother tore up to the school and walloped the teacher (principal) with the sweeping brush around the classroom. None of her children were ever hit by a teacher again. My husband also remembers a similar case.

I hated primary school but enjoyed secondary school. I was still in secondary school when the ban of corporal punishment was introduced but it did not stop the violent teachers from hitting or punching pupils. I witnessed a male teacher punch a boy in the face and split his mouth open with blood pumping everywhere. This "pillar of the community" is a vice principal these days and still teaches and punches pupils but nowadays when he loses it and punches a pupil he gives them money afterwards.

The day the ban on corporal punishment came info force one of the boys stuck the newspaper article about it on the school noticeboard but he was spotted doing it by one of the nuns who then proceeded to wallop him all the way down to the staffroom.

Wheneven I hear the phrase "pillar of the community" I automatically think what is this so called "pillar of the community" guilty of because there have been so many of these pillars found guilty of all sorts of abuse or dodgy dealings.

Legally corporal punishment is banned in schools it's still going on in a number of schools.

Oh The Humanity

I dont feel modern discipline works at all. I think as said above society is far too child centric to a ridiculous degree.

I see parents struggling trying to emulate the naughty step etc but unless you have all day to do nothing else only try to reason with a tiny undeveloped mind in reality its just showbiz magic. Supernanny herself has no kids of her own. You would wonder why.

I think a mixture of reasoning but with the threat of a slap if they are way out of line. For example if a child tries to run out on a road or bites another kid etc those to me are examples of when a sharp slap is justified.

I was always slapped by parents if I was out of line and it did me good, I copped onto myself much quicker and did not grow up spoiled. So in school I was good as gold and listened to what was required and expected.

You see 'kids today' (cant believe Im using that phrase) running around restaurants and pubs ruining it for everyone else unchecked. The parents don't understand this is wrong. Then you get kids left try to dictate their own bedtime and screaming the house down all night demanding to come into bed with the parents.

It seems every whim is indulged and I think this is wrong. Kids should know to fear their parents and teachers to a healthy degree, but discipline should be fair and kids should understand that.

They should also understand that adults supercede them and their wishes. I dont agree that they are just confident and standing up for themselves I think they have become like little Gods in themselves and everyone is expected to put them first. No, adults come first in my book and thats the end of it.

As a kid thats the way we were raised and it does not do you any harm to understand you dont get your own way on demand.

I was in a Kylemore cafe there recently and a man was holding up the whole queue for ages while his two pre-school age kids picked their food. There was two old women behind one on a walking stick and the other was obviously suffering in the heat too. The man was totally oblivious passing the plates back and forth changing the items at the whimsy of the kids.

I thought that was disgraceful but all too common. It does kids no harm at all to be given something to eat that the parents choose. If they dont like it they dont get something else. Simple as.

I think kids have become little Gods these days and that why they are attacking teachers in schools and running riot everywhere, they think their own ego is king.

deisemum

Oh The Humanity wrote: »

I dont feel modern discipline works at all. I think as said above society is far too child centric to a ridiculous degree.

I see parents struggling trying to emulate the naughty step etc but unless you have all day to do nothing else only try to reason with a tiny undeveloped mind in reality its just showbiz magic. Supernanny herself has no kids of her own. You would wonder why.

I think a mixture of reasoning but with the threat of a slap if they are way out of line. For example if a child tries to run out on a road or bites another kid etc those to me are examples of when a sharp slap is justified.

I was always slapped by parents if I was out of line and it did me good, I copped onto myself much quicker and did not grow up spoiled. So in school I was good as gold and listened to what was required and expected.

You see 'kids today' (cant believe Im using that phrase) running around restaurants and pubs ruining it for everyone else unchecked. The parents don't understand this is wrong. Then you get kids left try to dictate their own bedtime and screaming the house down all night demanding to come into bed with the parents.

It seems every whim is indulged and I think this is wrong. Kids should know to fear their parents and teachers to a healthy degree, but discipline should be fair and kids should understand that.

They should also understand that adults supercede them and their wishes. I dont agree that they are just confident and standing up for themselves I think they have become like little Gods in themselves and everyone is expected to put them first. No, adults come first in my book and thats the end of it.

As a kid thats the way we were raised and it does not do you any harm to understand you dont get your own way on demand.

I was in a Kylemore cafe there recently and a man was holding up the whole queue for ages while his two pre-school age kids picked their food. There was two old women behind one on a walking stick and the other was obviously suffering in the heat too. The man was totally oblivious passing the plates back and forth changing the items at the whimsy of the kids.

I thought that was disgraceful but all too common. It does kids no harm at all to be given something to eat that the parents choose. If they dont like it they dont get something else. Simple as.

I think kids have become little Gods these days and that why they are attacking teachers in schools and running riot everywhere, they think their own ego is king.

What you've described there especially the restaurant scenario is not the childrens fault, it's the parents who are not stepping up to the plate and parenting.

One thing I've noticed so often is parents threatening a child that they can't have something or go somewhere if the child doesn't do as requested yet when the child ignores the parent's request the parent will often give in and not follow through. The child is only doing what it knows will work.

oil painting

Oh The Humanity wrote: »

I dont feel modern discipline works at all. I think as said above society is far too child centric to a ridiculous degree.

I see parents struggling trying to emulate the naughty step etc but unless you have all day to do nothing else only try to reason with a tiny undeveloped mind in reality its just showbiz magic. Supernanny herself has no kids of her own. You would wonder why.

I think a mixture of reasoning but with the threat of a slap if they are way out of line. For example if a child tries to run out on a road or bites another kid etc those to me are examples of when a sharp slap is justified.

I was always slapped by parents if I was out of line and it did me good, I copped onto myself much quicker and did not grow up spoiled. So in school I was good as gold and listened to what was required and expected.

You see 'kids today' (cant believe Im using that phrase) running around restaurants and pubs ruining it for everyone else unchecked. The parents don't understand this is wrong. Then you get kids left try to dictate their own bedtime and screaming the house down all night demanding to come into bed with the parents.

It seems every whim is indulged and I think this is wrong. Kids should know to fear their parents and teachers to a healthy degree, but discipline should be fair and kids should understand that.

They should also understand that adults supercede them and their wishes. I dont agree that they are just confident and standing up for themselves I think they have become like little Gods in themselves and everyone is expected to put them first. No, adults come first in my book and thats the end of it.

As a kid thats the way we were raised and it does not do you any harm to understand you dont get your own way on demand.

I was in a Kylemore cafe there recently and a man was holding up the whole queue for ages while his two pre-school age kids picked their food. There was two old women behind one on a walking stick and the other was obviously suffering in the heat too. The man was totally oblivious passing the plates back and forth changing the items at the whimsy of the kids.

I thought that was disgraceful but all too common. It does kids no harm at all to be given something to eat that the parents choose. If they dont like it they dont get something else. Simple as.

I think kids have become little Gods these days and that why they are attacking teachers in schools and running riot everywhere, they think their own ego is king.

its sounds like you think children are second class citizens, and you are resentful that children now a days are confident and expressive, they are like this because they are not afraid and are being hit/slapped/beaten, they have higher self esteem,

TBH from your post you sound like you have been effected by your upbringing, and it has done you some harm, self esteem involves not thinking you deserved a good slap.

If you dont have the respect for yourself and your experience as a child then you wont have it for anyone else- hence the opinion you now have of children's rights.

Wibbs

Lets all please keep on the original topic. If some want to discuss the wider debate about children and parenting, please take it to the Humanities forum. Not here. Thanks.

Oh The Humanity

Sorry for going off topic there.

I guess what I was trying to illustrate is that the Corporal punishment that went on years ago was severe abuse. No one can deny that.

And I think a sad result of that Corporal punishment is that things have gone in the opposite direction in order to avoid such abuse ever happening again. The balance and sensible-ness is lost. People are so afraid of not abusing kids they now do the opposite.

keefg

oil painting wrote: »

It is such a generalization to state that kids today pretty much do as they please without fear of any punishment

But a very true generalisation.

oil painting wrote: »

teachers have a tough job because classrooms are over crowded and their job is not paid or funded well enough. It is not the childrens fault.

Can you please explain the direct link between a persons salary and the behaviour of a child?

Do you think children (and I'm talking all ages here from primary to secondary) behave well if they know a teacher is on a good salary?

Or that they misbehave even more than normal if they know a teacher is on a low salary?

In my experience a badly behaved kid is just that....regardless of what salary their teacher is on.

oil painting wrote: »

Its the old moaning of kids today! there is nothing wrong with kids today!

Kids are the same now as they have been since the 60's, the difference is in the social climate where we live in a nanny society and in constant fear of litigation.

Kids today exploit this nanny state and behave any which way they like without fear of punishment.

Ask any joy rider under 18 are they worried about the consequences of their action, I'd bet they say no because there are no consequences to face.

There have been regular reports from many countries over the last 20 years of violence toward teachers in the work place. Some have been subjected to horrendous beatings and even sexual assault and rape.

If this is this "new confidence" you speak of then I think I prefer the "old" days where there were real punishments that worked.

oil painting wrote: »

if a child mis behaves there should be consequences but not punishment, and fear is not an effective way of disciplining a child,

Would you care to give us some examples? And please don't spout on about "Supernanny"....it's just a tv show which is heavily edited and broadcast for the purpose of entertainment.

Are you telling me that if a 5ft 10in, heavy built 15 year old boy is acting violently or aggressive toward his teacher because he doesn't want to follow the rules will back down with a threat of "5 mins on the naughty step"?

Oh The Humanity wrote: »

I guess what I was trying to illustrate is that the Corporal punishment that went on years ago was severe abuse. No one can deny that.

Whilst I sympathise with your case I do think it's an exception to the behaviour of most modern schools.

I think there is a big difference between the abuse you suffered/witnessed to the more accepted corporal punishment methods (cane, slipper etc)

I left school in 1987 so I was there to witness the transition and I remember how happy my friends & I were when corporal punishment was banned.

Not because we thought it was barbaric or abusive but because we knew then that we could do anything we wanted knowing the teachers were powerless to stop us. Of course we still had to worry about getting a slap of mum or dad if the teacher contacted them but that's frowned upon as well today, so back to my original point.......that kids today pretty much do as they please without fear of any punishment.

melekalikimaka

after reading this... you have to wonder how much our country will change once the new generation of abuse free children, with high self esteem and respect will effect it. The attitude where he who is in charge rules all is out the window... i can only see this as a good thing. Its actually sadding to see people defend, actually defend the practice of beating defencless children... I really feel on a completely other level with the previous generation

techdiver

melekalikimaka wrote: »

after reading this... you have to wonder how much our country will change once the new generation of abuse free children, with high self esteem and respect will effect it. The attitude where he who is in charge rules all is out the window... i can only see this as a good thing. Its actually sadding to see people defend, actually defend the practice of beating defencless children... I really feel on a completely other level with the previous generation

Went to school in the 80's and was subjected to Corporal punishment and it did me no harm what so ever. It should be brought back in to deal with the little s**ts that run wild in the streets today with no consequences!

melekalikimaka

techdiver wrote: »

Went to school in the 80's and was subjected to Corporal punishment and it did me no harm what so ever. It should be brought back in to deal with the little s**ts that run wild in the streets today with no consequences!

i'm afraid i have been brought up with the mindset where violence isnt a solution.

techdiver

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i'm afraid i have been brought up with the mindset where violence isnt a solution.

Well unfortunately violence and disorder is a bi-product of our lack of proper discipline in schools and in the home over the past 15 or so years. We have invented disorders to excuse behavioural problems among children. The latest doozy is ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). What a laugh. What about maybe calling a spade a spade and saying that the child in question is a brat and needs a clip around the ear!

melekalikimaka

techdiver wrote: »

Well unfortunately violence and disorder is a bi-product of our lack of proper discipline in schools and in the home over the past 15 or so years. We have invented disorders to excuse behavioural problems among children. The latest doozy is ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). What a laugh. What about maybe calling a spade a spade and saying that the child in question is a brat and needs a clip around the ear!

because hitting a defencless child is wrong...morally wrong my modern standards... we have evolved socially past the point where hitting someone is an answer to a problem... do ou honestly think that smacking a child... or anyone who is not in a position to defend him or herself it right???

techdiver

melekalikimaka wrote: »

because hitting a defencless child is wrong...morally wrong my modern standards... we have evolved socially past the point where hitting someone is an answer to a problem... do ou honestly think that smacking a child... or anyone who is not in a position to defend him or herself it right???

In certain scenarios ........... yes! I'm not advocating beating children senseless or anything of the sort. It should be used as a deterrent. We have gone from one extreme to the other in this country and in the grand scheme of things I want to be able to walk home at night without being attacked at knife point by some little scumbag with no raring!

I suppose it's better to molly coddle them and qualify the opinion that they are only doing what they are doing because of some fashionable, fantastic disorder!

keefg

melekalikimaka wrote: »

after reading this... you have to wonder how much our country will change once the new generation of abuse free children, with high self esteem and respect will effect it.

Erm....respect for who/what exactly? Teachers? Gardai? the judicial system?

melekalikimaka wrote: »

The attitude where he who is in charge rules all is out the window... i can only see this as a good thing.

So the alternative is what? Anarchy?

melekalikimaka wrote: »

Its actually sadding to see people defend, actually defend the practice of beating defencless children... I really feel on a completely other level with the previous generation

There is a big difference to "beating defenceless children" and corporal punishment. I'm not talking about teachers beating a 5 year old girl/boy black & blue but you take a wander into a secondary school in Blanchardstown, Limerick, Finglas etc etc and tell me how many defenceless children you meet.

"Kids" nowadays (12-18) have a very different attitude toward authority than kids of the same age who grew up during the 70's & 80's.....to put it crudely, most of them couldn't give a f**k about any type of authority including, sadly, their own parents.

I know from personal experience that a kid who is seen as a tearaway/gurrier/scumbag (call them what you will) at school rarely goes on to make a positive contribution to society once they leave school.

melekalikimaka

keefg wrote: »

I know from personal experience that a kid who is seen as a tearaway/gurrier/scumbag (call them what you will) at school rarely goes on to make a positive contribution to society once they leave school.

I'm not gonna answer the other points... your answers dont make sense to me, so i cant see hitting back with a response will go anywhere.

on the last point tho, i understand, i suppose my experiences in school have been with good students and mutual respect between students and teachers.

i'll repeat my previous question, i'll reword tho to match your comments.

do you think its right for a teacher to hit a child... up to the age of leaving school? to punish him or her for misbehaving. if you had a child you would allow another man or woman to cause your own child pain... based on his or her opionion that your child is doing something wrong?

Das Kitty

I was born in 1980 and a teacher dislocated my shoulder when I was in primary school, it was an unintentional dislocation but he meant to hurt me by lifting me suddenly by the arm out of my seat, the headmaster knocked it back into its socket afterwards and said nothing to my mother.

Nothing was done, when I told my mother what happened she assumed I was exaggerating. The searing screaming pain however and the audible pop, in retrospect it was unmistakable.

I will be making a point of telling my kids about this incident and the countless incidents of caning that my mother and aforementioned headmaster told me about their schooldays, they need to know that it's wrong.

OP, I really think it would be cathartic for you to tell your adult children about it, you say you feel ashamed but you are the last person who should feel ashamed.

keefg

melekalikimaka wrote: »

because hitting a defencless child is wrong...morally wrong my modern standards... we have evolved socially past the point where hitting someone is an answer to a problem... do ou honestly think that smacking a child... or anyone who is not in a position to defend him or herself it right???

Even if I don't agree with your view I do respect it. I know a lot of parents who feel the same way you do about physically punishing their children (and most of them have kids who are right little sh1ts, go figure:rolleyes:).

So would you care to enlighten us barbarians as to how unruly children should be disciplined?

Perhaps you can break it down into age groups...

5-8 years old.
9-12 years old.
13-17 years old.

I'd be really glad to hear some credible suggestions that teachers can put to use.

keefg

melekalikimaka wrote: »

I'm not gonna answer the other points... your answers dont make sense to me, so i cant see hitting back with a response will go anywhere.

Meh....what a cop out! You can't think of a suitable argument to support your view so you blame it on me not making sense.

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i'll repeat my previous question, i'll reword tho to match your comments.

do you think its right for a teacher to hit a child... up to the age of leaving school? to punish him or her for misbehaving. if you had a child you would allow another man or woman to cause your own child pain... based on his or her opionion that your child is doing something wrong?

Yes.

melekalikimaka

keefg wrote: »

Meh....what a cop out! You can't think of a suitable argument to support your view so you blame it on me not making sense.

no i just realised from your post that perhaps its pointless to argue this point with someone who supports hitting children... Its so unfathomable to me that I find it difficult to rationalise the agruement for it... so argueing it isnt gonna go anywhere

keefg wrote: »

Yes.

I peronally find that a bit sickening... but I know that that mentality is a result of your experiences, and I know that its a dying mentality, my generation from discussions in school/socially lead me to believe that, so as much as it worries me that people can think like that, I know it wont be for much longer

keefg

melekalikimaka wrote: »

I peronally find that a bit sickening... but I know that that mentality is a result of your experiences, and I know that its a dying mentality, my generation from discussions in school/socially lead me to believe that, so as much as it worries me that people can think like that, I know it wont be for much longer

I can only assume from your posts that you have been lucky enough to only have met/taught well behaved little angels and have absolutely no idea what it's like for a teacher to be subjected to verbal, mental & physical abuse on a daily basis and can't do a thing about it.

What a joyous future for teachers you are looking forward to.

Oh The Humanity

melekalikimaka wrote: »

after reading this... you have to wonder how much our country will change once the new generation of abuse free children, with high self esteem and respect will effect it.

Generation of abuse free children? The pendulum has swung so far the other way these Little monsters have become free to abuse all around them with impunity. Some are little more than thugs.

High self esteem I would translate as having an aggressive sense of entitlement.

The attitude where he who is in charge rules all is out the window... i can only see this as a good thing.

Yes and good riddance. I agree with that.

Its actually sadding to see people defend, actually defend the practice of beating defencless children... I really feel on a completely other level with the previous generation

I dont think anyone is conding 'beating'. But if a child strikes their parent or bites another or does something life endangering then all the 'getting down to their level with eye contact and reasoning' in the world is not going to get through to them. That actually re-inforces to them the idea that they can do anything they want with no consequences other than a wishy washy talking to.

keefg

melekalikimaka wrote: »

its pointless to argue this point with someone who supports hitting children... Its so unfathomable to me that I find it difficult to rationalise the agruement for it... so argueing it isnt gonna go anywhere

OK, that's fair enough.....how about answering my earlier question VVV

I would love to hear your suggestions.

keefg wrote: »

So would you care to enlighten us barbarians as to how unruly children should be disciplined?

Perhaps you can break it down into age groups...

5-8 years old.
9-12 years old.
13-17 years old.

I'd be really glad to hear some credible suggestions that teachers can put to use.

melekalikimaka

keefg wrote: »

I can only assume from your posts that you have been lucky enough to only have met/taught well behaved little angels and have absolutely no idea what it's like for a teacher to be subjected to verbal, mental & physical abuse on a daily basis and can't do a thing about it.

What a joyous future for teachers you are looking forward to.

not at all. there was a fair share of cheeky misbeaved litle feckers in school with me... but they were never punished by abuse, well i saw it twice and all hell broke loose with parents, not even a punch, and shove against a wall and threats, that was it.

children can be controlled by other methods of punishment, using your fists to deal with a bold child, its bullying of the highest order, public humiliation, damaging self esteem, creating an atmosphere of fear... really do you think a developing mind should be subjected to this. it instills a mentality that physical violence solves issues... it doesnt, it merely turns one negative feeling ( acting the cheeky feck) to any other less expressive one (fear). I would never wish that upon anyone, let alone a child. In my opinion that attiude will filter into the child and could become a a solution for problems for that child in the future, in domestic situations. Negativity breeds negativity

melekalikimaka

keefg wrote: »

I would love to hear your suggestions.

I cant answer them, honestly I dont know, personally the current method worked from my experiences in the education system, so i have never given them much thought.

I would be interested in ideas on it also to deal with more troublesome students. My issue is not with disipline, its with hitting a child... and the effects it has on it, i feel the effects far outweigh any short term benifits it may have

deisemum

I will never support a teacher hitting a pupil even under the guise of corporal punishment if it was ever re-introduced. It's already banned but it still hasn't stopped some teachers abusing children.

My own mother in law was a teacher and admitted it was easy to get a set on a child often without any reason so I could well imagine what a teacher of that mentality would be like if they were allowed to use corporal punishment.

I can remember scumbags running wild back in the 70's, 80's and 90's so it's nothing new.

I still have memories of teachers caning pupils and the look of glee on the teachers faces will stay with me forever. Some of them got off on it. I've seen scares left on some people as a result of being caned by teachers.

keefg

melekalikimaka wrote: »

not at all. there was a fair share of cheeky misbeaved litle feckers in school with me... but they were never punished by abuse, well i saw it twice and all hell broke loose with parents, not even a punch, and shove against a wall and threats, that was it.

Parents will always react differently to corporal punishment. In my experience (which I will tell you about in a moment) every parent thinks their child is a little angel and it's the teachers who are some kind of beast.

In a lot of these cases the child in question is a little f*cker who knows how to exploit the system to their own benefit.

melekalikimaka wrote: »

children can be controlled by other methods of punishment, using your fists to deal with a bold child, its bullying of the highest order, public humiliation, damaging self esteem, creating an atmosphere of fear... really do you think a developing mind should be subjected to this. it instills a mentality that physical violence solves issues... it doesnt, it merely turns one negative feeling ( acting the cheeky feck) to any other less expressive one (fear). I would never wish that upon anyone, let alone a child. In my opinion that attiude will filter into the child and could become a a solution for problems for that child in the future, in domestic situations. Negativity breeds negativity

melekalikimaka wrote: »

I cant answer them, honestly I dont know, personally the current method worked from my experiences in the education system, so i have never given them much thought.

I would be interested in ideas on it also to deal with more troublesome students. My issue is not with disipline, its with hitting a child... and the effects it has on it, i feel the effects far outweigh any short term benifits it may have

So you think corporal punishment is unacceptable but you have not one suggestion how to deal with unruly children?

deisemum wrote: »

I can remember scumbags running wild back in the 70's, 80's and 90's so it's nothing new.

Your right.

I was certainly no angel growing up but (for me & my mates anyway) there was a line you didn't dare cross for fear of getting the cane, and I think having that "line" was a positive effect on my upbringing.

Today there is no such line to cross, kids know that and therefore do as they please without fear of any (suitable) punishment.

Edit: Personal details deleted.

melekalikimaka

keefg wrote: »

That's the difference I see between the two generations and if you think my brother is an isolated case then you would be very much mistaken.

Very sorry to hear about your situation. perhaps i have lived in a more sheltered segment of society... I can ( as everyone here) speak from their on experiences

keefg

melekalikimaka wrote: »

Very sorry to hear about your situation. perhaps i have lived in a more sheltered segment of society... I can ( as everyone here) speak from their on experiences

Which is why we have such very different views on the subject.

I just told you guys about my situation at home because I really do believe that had my brother been at school during the same period as me he would have turned out a very different man.

He went to the same school as I did and I'd met teachers who lived locally years later who could not believe that we were related.

So many people (teachers, family & friends) said to my parents all those years when his behaviour was bad at a young age "what that boy needs is a good kick up the arse/clip 'round the ear"

And do you know what? I think they were right.

And I think it's that namby pamby "Oh don't hit the children" attitude that has put my brother where his is now (as well as his own behavioural attitude of course).

melekalikimaka

I dont wanna be nasty, you situation is horrible... but blaming the lack of corporal punishment is a little scapegoatish... thats highly isolated, if that was the case the whole country would be up in a state. very few countries in the world allow it now... they cant ALL be wrong

keefg

melekalikimaka wrote: »

I dont wanna be nasty, you situation is horrible... but blaming the lack of corporal punishment is a little scapegoatish... thats highly isolated, if that was the case the whole country would be up in a state. very few countries in the world allow it now... they cant ALL be wrong

Do you really think my brothers behaviour toward authority is "highly isolated"?

If so, then you really do live a sheltered life.

And as for the country being in a state.......look a little further afield than your immediate surroundings........those new laws to combat gangs in Ireland weren't introduced just for the craic.

And it's the same situation in the UK regarding gangs and violence and abusive behaviour toward has become more frequent.

oil painting

It is a good point made that there is not another way presented to parents in society to handle children, many people just do what their parents did.

The point is that a whole new structure needs to be presented to society and slowly this is happening, to me its like how issues in society come forth and progress, for example the sexual abuse scandal, ireland is only now ready to deal with it, to me its the same with Physical force being used on children, it will progress and the new methods will become widespread in society.

The best way to raise children is to start with yourself, once you are a responsible adult who is able to handle your emotions and you have self awareness you are then able to have perspective and control over children. Anytime a person or child in this case makes you feel angry or pissed off you have to realizer these are your emotions and your feelings and it has nothing to do with what the child has done.

Responsible adults = balanced children.


The point i made earlier about the teachers is that it is the system that the teacher is teaching in that is the problem and not the children fault, with overcrowded classrooms and massive pressures on teachers they are stretched to the gills.

What needs to happen is smaller class room and maybe 2 teachers in the class rooms to give the class the attention and monitoring it needs.


Children are always going to be unruly but having one teacher to a class of 25 is ridiculous. It is widespread across the world that governments do not put money into schooling institutions, they stay the same year after year, teachers are under paid and undervalued.

So what i am saying is that Adults have to be in control of themselves to raise children effectively.

keefg

I have seen plenty of post here about people who disagree with corporal punishment - which is fair enough, their opinion and all that.

I have yet to see any of these posters suggest one credible deterrent that a teacher (or parent) can use in the real world.

Not one.

LegacyUser

all this corporal punishment only made me resent the authority even more. i never had any respect for people who went around hitting me, they were the scum of the earth and years later it turns out i was right too for the most part. outside of school teachers seemed fairly decent but as soon as they walked into a school they turned into right cnuts.

i cant say it ever did me any good but its over now. these days i don't think much of todays over-regulated society with little laws governing every aspect of our lives but if you live isolated enough people won't take any notice. i dunno if i think this way because of the **** that went down in school or something else.

oil painting

keefg wrote: »

I have seen plenty of post here about people who disagree with corporal punishment - which is fair enough, their opinion and all that.

I have yet to see any of these posters suggest one credible deterrent that a teacher (or parent) can use in the real world.

Not one.

I think it says a lot that you have to be told ........

but here are a few examples... your argument that there are not enough examples does not make your way right either, point is we have to create new ways and let go of the old.


Step
1
Raising and disciplining children is not an easy task. Children are supposed to respect their parents and do their best to uphold the values in which they were taught. However, sometimes children make mistakes and need to be punished. Centuries ago, punishment was almost always met with hitting, spanking or some kind of physical contact. I am not an advocate of hitting because I don’t believe it really works.

Step
2
One way to discipline your child is deprivation. Basically, when the child needs to be punished instead of hitting, take something away from them for a period of time. By taking away a favorite game, video, telephone privileges etc, the child tends to think twice before doing something wrong in the future. Children seem to learn better self-control and discipline when they are punished in this particular manner. However, the parent must stick to their decision and not give into the child under any circumstances.

Step
3
Finally, self control, respect, and lessons learned are all a part of life. It is best that a parent disciplines the child at a young age. When the child is young they are learning right from wrong and they need a strong parent to enforce certain rules and regulations.

deisemum

My children are now in their teens/preteens but when they were younger I did occasionally smack them but not too often because I was the one left very upset that I did something I swore I'd never do. Thing is it didn't work anyway and I was only doing what I learnt as a child.

I decided to do some parenting and childcare courses and learnt new skills in how to discipline in an age appropriate way and that has been far more effective.

Things like positive reinforcement, distraction, time out, verbal instruction and reason why such instruction is to be followed, setting rules, grounding and withdrawing privileges worked much better.

Different techniques are more appropriate to certain ages ie grounding, withdrawing privileges work better on older children where as time out wouldn't.

Following through is very important though and that's one thing I've done 99% of the time, 100% of the time when is was something important. When mine were younger if they misbehaved if we were visiting or at a party they were given a warning and if they continued to misbehave then I followed through and brought them home. I only had to do this twice and they soon learnt that they'd miss the fun things if they continued.

I also try to raise my children to have empathy for others and to treat others in the same way they'd like to be treated. So far they are well rounded polite children and my husband and I often get compliments on how well behaved they are. Same on school reports.

I work with children now and I'd never slap them.

I've also got several family members who are teachers and over the years they've commented on how some teachers have much better authority in a class where as other teachers may have the same class and have no control and their work life is difficult.

BroomBurner

oil painting wrote: »

I think it says a lot that you have to be told ........

but here are a few examples... your argument that there are not enough examples does not make your way right either, point is we have to create new ways and let go of the old.


Step
1
Raising and disciplining children is not an easy task. Children are supposed to respect their parents and do their best to uphold the values in which they were taught. However, sometimes children make mistakes and need to be punished. Centuries ago, punishment was almost always met with hitting, spanking or some kind of physical contact. I am not an advocate of hitting because I don’t believe it really works.

Step
2
One way to discipline your child is deprivation. Basically, when the child needs to be punished instead of hitting, take something away from them for a period of time. By taking away a favorite game, video, telephone privileges etc, the child tends to think twice before doing something wrong in the future. Children seem to learn better self-control and discipline when they are punished in this particular manner. However, the parent must stick to their decision and not give into the child under any circumstances.

Step
3
Finally, self control, respect, and lessons learned are all a part of life. It is best that a parent disciplines the child at a young age. When the child is young they are learning right from wrong and they need a strong parent to enforce certain rules and regulations.

They're all very good tips for parenting, but not for teachers. How can a teacher ensure the child's attention for things the child might not particularly like, and keep said child from being disruptive to others? You can't very well "deprive" a child in a classroom from anything, as a teacher, what can you take away from them?

One other use we had in school was the "bold circle", where you stood in front of the class as a punishment. That was quite effective in that the possible humiliation kept you quiet.

I don't think anybody today would ever suggest that corporal punishment was good and should be brought back. However, there needs to be a balance. Where is the fear going to come from? Kids will always try to get away with the most they can. Only fear holds them back. Respect is only a word to them, it means something only to adults.

OP, I think what a previous poster had said about talking about it with your own children might help. Once spoken, bad feelings have a way of becoming less enveloping.

Nevyn

BroomBurner wrote: »

They're all very good tips for parenting, but not for teachers. How can a teacher ensure the child's attention for things the child might not particularly like, and keep said child from being disruptive to others? You can't very well "deprive" a child in a classroom from anything, as a teacher, what can you take away from them?

Punishment work, lines, removing of stars/merits, time out, bold table beside the teacher, being made to stay with the teacher at year time, not allowed to do arts and crafts.

There are many many ways, hte same with keeping a child on track you just have to keep checking in on them to make sure they are focused.

Respect has to start at home, kids have to be taught respect and earn it and be told to respect their teachers

I was born in 1975 I got beated up in school by teachers and at home between the wooden spoon and the belt some where along the way my defiance at home and refusing to accept such punishments which escalated lead my parents to look for another way of parenting and they got help took on a series of parenting classes and in the end ran such calsses in 3 of the local schools.

Times have thankfully changed but we need to teach parenting skills to parents on how to intercept behaviour and how to curtail negative behaviour.

Yes I have told my kids that I was beaten with dusters and rulers in school and being made to write out the classroom rules 3 to 5 times then doesn't seem to bad.

Just because we no longer hit children do discipline them does not mean they should not be disciplined.

DublinWriter

When I first saw this thread a number of days ago, I really had to restrain myself from going into 'type-first, think-later' mode as I was born in 1970 and saw and experienced a lot of grim stuff going on at my local primary school.

Even now, if I ran into certain ex-teachers at my school on the street, I don't think I could be held responsible for my actions.

One particular teacher in third-class chain-smoked in the classroom all day and used a piece of hardwood on us that we nicknamed 'The Yorkie' for obvious reasons.

Punishment was typically meted out for getting answers/sums wrong and not just for 'naughty' behaviour.