SFIV - Switching from Ryu to Ken - How to adjust?

Leprekaun

Hey lads! I've been very curious as to know why I'm basically cr@p with Ken now . I know that sometimes it could be that certain moves shouldn't be applied when using Ken (i.e.: multi-hadoukens) because he takes a bit longer to recover. I find his tatsumaki also quite frustrating to use because he covers less distance compared to Ryu. So that leaves only 1 move which is his shoryuken which needs a bit of muscle memory training to remember to anti air with the M. Shoryuken rather than using H. Shoryuken with Ryu. I just feel almost completely useless with Ken and most other shotokan characters too. Its interesting the way they have the same moves, the slight variations make all the difference.

So what kind of style of play should I use with Ken? More specifically, rushdown strategies as I'm mostly a rushdown player.

Owwmykneecap

you should play with someone else.

Azza

Don't know why you would want switch. Ryu is a much more solid character than Ken.

All I know about Ken is that his foward medium kick is good for applying pressure and closing down distance, seems to beat out some pokes.
He's also the only fighter with a worthwhile kara throw. I'd learn to take advantage of this. Again its his foward medium kick that cancels into the throw.
His shoryuken/ultra seems to have decent range, more so than Ryus. Alot of Ken players like mashing out shoryuken during block strings and that seems reasonable effective.

His fireball game is pooer than Ryu's and he has far fewer setups for his super/ultra. Basically the thread off is too great switch over.

I recommend learning a non-shoto character to give you a wider selection fo play styles to choose. Something like a crafty dictator or the like!

Owwmykneecap

Vega's kara is good too. 2nd best in the game afai remember.

Seriously pick someone else to learn, you'll improve you game dramatically by having a mixup of styles and your execution will be exponentially improved.

having to play someone lower tier will also improve your fighting brain.

K.O.Kiki

For proper rushdown, consider Rufus or Akuma. Rufus esp. has a sick amount of ways to combo into Ultra.

Leprekaun

Well, I've given a few other fighters a proper go. I've tried using Chun Li, Vega and Bison. My strongest out of the 3 is probably Bison.

About the kara cancelling, what is it again? How do you do it? I tried kara cancelling with Ken but couldn't figure out how it worked.

K.O.Kiki

You do an attack (usually F+xx), then tap throw IMMEDIATELY after.
Done correctly, you move forward just a bit, and increase your throw range.

Kirby

There is only one decent ken player out there, Ed Ma, and he never wins anything because ken simply isn't good enough. Virtually, everything he has going for him, Ryu has better.

Ryu is basically up there with Sagat, in that he has no bad matchups. You shouldn't switch to ken over ryu.

Having said that, if ryu is boring you and you like shoto's.....try Akuma or Gouken. Both are good characters and have lots of options.

You said you tried Bison and were decent with him. You could stick with him as, imo, hes godly .

Oh, btw guys. My console 3 red lighted on me. Two years with my elite and then bam..... :mad::eek:

Oh well. Guess I'll be going into our saturday meetup on the 4th, seriously out of practice.

Azza

I wish Bison was godly....but he's only upper mid tier at best

L31mr0d

why not move from Ryu to Sagat? I'm thinking about making him my 2nd myself.

K.O.Kiki

L31mr0d wrote: »

why not move from Ryu to Sagat? I'm thinking about making him my 2nd myself.

TIGER TIGER TIGER TIGER TIGER

Sagat06

Sagat is horribly overpowered, he has practically no weakness... if you look at the online tiers they say his only weakness is his walking speed so his rushdown can be hampered, but this can be overcome by his weak tiger knee which closes down quickly and is unpunishable most of the time...

L31mr0d

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

TIGER TIGER TIGER TIGER TIGER

I've been playing a bit with him and he is godly. Even his bnb stuff does serious damage. Plus he has 8 different ways of throwing out tiger shots, it makes it very easy to play mind games with people just using those alone.

Azza

Capcoms balance team discussion.

We need to balance Akuma, we need to offset the high damage he does off his normal moves. I know lets make him weak health wise. Good idea.

We need to balance Seth, we need to offset his huge versatility. Lets give him a really low damage output and the lowest health. Good idea!

Now we need to balance Sagat. We need to offset the high damage he does of his normal moves. Lets give him above average health, and safe tiger knees when spaced correctly and light kick kara cancelled knees for super fast movement, and foward plus round house for setting up ultra, plus roundhouse comes out fast and hits twice so it breaks armor and lets give him the best fireball game.
Brillaint idea...that sound perfectly balanced. Actually no on second thoughts he sound abit weak. We better buff him in the turbo edition!

bush

I wouldnt mind sagat only for that roundhouse, especially the one that juggles. Its stupid that someone like chun li with low health has no reliable AA and they give sagat who has tonnes of health a good normal move that can juggle into ultra, along with his tiger uppercut.

Kirby

Its obvious that the best two characters are Sagat and Ryu. With regards to Sagat, I've said all along that a very simple way to fix him is to nerf his damage OR health. Lowering his health a 100 points would help.

Alternatively, lowering his total damage output with every move 15% would make him a little more balanced. That includes his ultra which is ridiculously good consider you can combo into it from another country and off of every move you can think of.

Which, is the same problem with ryu. A lucky dragon punch and boom, ultra. If you watch high level tourneys, Ryu players get their Ultra in EVERY ROUND.....whcih is unfair. The ultra itself needs a good 30% damage nerf. Obviously, there are subtle changes you can make to frame advantage of some moves, but in general terms, the ultra damage nerf would help stem his "ultra spam."

With regards to Bison, I would never describe him as "middle tier". Its obvious Sagat and Ryu are top, but the guys under them definately include Bison.

In my eyes, the next group behind Sagat and Ryu would be Balrog, Dhalsim, Rufus, Bison, Akuma, Zangief and Viper.

Again, certain lists disagree but thats my own view and I can back up each one if required. I think the frequency that those guys are used at the top level add credence to my view though. I quite rate Blanka, Gouken and Abel and I would entertain an arguement for including them in the list I just gave......but I would like to see them win more high level matches before I would consider them in the same league.

K.O.Kiki

According to G3 players, Ken is still tops :pac:

But yes, Ryu & Sagat are too damn good right now. But I can't see Capcom nerfing them too much.
They should do what the HD Remix team did, and just bring the lower-tier characters up a notch.
For instance, Honda NEEDS something to get around FB traps other than "jump up Fierce", and his Ochio & Ultra need some damn better priority.

And Abel needs something to deal with Zangief effectively, as Gief can just turtle-spam cr.Jab all day (seriously).

Kirby

I agree with buffing lower characters....but devs shouldn't be afraid of nerfing either. The question really is to the devs, do you wanna avoid whining or have a balanced game?

And I think its important not to focus too much on particular match ups. Yes, Abel struggles against Gief but thats the nature of fighting games.....everyone has a character that they struggle against.

The thing that people should be watching for is systemic weaknesses.....things that hurt you in every matchup.

For example, hardly any of the new console characters can combo into ultra. Thats a terrible oversight that needs fixing. Fei's for example, is simply awful. The only way to get it in is too crumple somebody through focus attacking them.....and thats FAR too limiting.... and its not a problem against one opponent....its a problem against them all.

The thing to watch for is weaknesses that hurt against everyone.

bush

Blanka will be low tier in 6 months, hes ****e. Seriously, people know all his tricks at this stage.

Sagat06

Yeah it feels like with Blanka all I'm good for is beating up on newbie's... which has its appeals dont get me wrong. But when you watch even high level players like Black Mamba, Moval or even our UK friend Mullah all get beat down in tournies it gets disheartening :mad:

Azza

Blanka isn't ****. Hes usually regarded as been in the same grouping with Rufus, Balrog, Akuma, Bison, Seth. Just below the top 3 of Sagat, Ryu, and Zangief.

He's got a lethal mix up game and is practical immune to crossups and jump in attacks. Problem for him is alot of his specials are punishable on block. His ultra is also pretty poor, its almost impossible to land once people know how to block it. Least it does good chip damage.

Bison on the other hand has a very safe light scissors kick. His ex moves are very good. He also has decent escape tools. But he lacks a decent mix up game and unlike Blanka and Gief has woeful problems with cross ups. You can pressure Bison with direct jump in's on knock downs more than the shoto's. His main issue that keep him from being top tier is like Blanka he has no reliable way to combo into ultra. Only jumping mpx2 sets it up and smart players don't jump in at Bison wheh he has ultra, and even if they do its 2xmp has not got the best priority. It will loose to Rufus jumping roundhouse and set him up for ultra, instead. Alex Valle gave up playing Bison as he just doesn't have the comeback game other characters do (particularly that asshole Gief and his retarded 1 frame ultra/super). But he is still solid. Nearly all the characters rated above him have 1 thing in common...consistent methods to land ultra. I don't really see him being played that much either.

As for Sagat I agree pretty much with Kirby. Less health and have his normals do less damage.

Ryu needs less options to land his ultra or else nerf the ultra. Its unfair that certain characters have so many way to land ultra (like Ryu, Rufus) and others have almost nothing. I mean he can punish Bison with dp cancelled into ultra/super just for trying to poke him or just mashing out the dp in a block string.

As for the console characters. I'm starting to like Rose. Her Ultra is easy to land and its easy to build metre against fireball spammers and combo into her super. The rest I'm not over gone on.

Dreddybajs

Her throws are also fantastic.

Leprekaun

Actually, I found that I seem to have issues closing in on my opponent so there must be a general flaw in my play. Don't what it is but I'm nowhere near as sharp as I used to be

I think playing Forza 2 too much has slowed my mind down

Dreddybajs

If you are trying to rushdown the flaw in your play is that you are playing Street Fighter 4. :pac:

bush

Azza wrote: »

Blanka isn't ****. Hes usually regarded as been in the same grouping with Rufus, Balrog, Akuma, Bison, Seth. Just below the top 3 of Sagat, Ryu, and Zangief.

He's got a lethal mix up game and is practical immune to crossups and jump in attacks. Problem for him is alot of his specials are punishable on block. His ultra is also pretty poor, its almost impossible to land once people know how to block it. Least it does good chip damage.

What do ya think of the new tier list that just came out? Looks about right to me.

S Rank: Sagat
A Rank: Ryu, Akuma, Zangief
B Rank: M.Bison, Rufus, Balrog, C.Viper, E.Honda
C Rank: Abel, El Fuerte, Dhalsim, Chun-li, Ken, Blanka
D Rank: Guile, Vega

Dreddybajs

Switch Blanka and Honda at a glance, imo.

Sagat06

oh thats a tough one for me I'd have sim above Viper for sure!

Dreddybajs

I'd personally easier put Viper in a better tier than Sim...

edit: Overall though it does look about right and really I think whoever put this together has put a lot more thought into it than me. Doubt the inclusion of console characters would change the current characters' tiers at all either.

bush

Id switch dhalsim or chun li with honda.

K.O.Kiki

Honda is beastly as long as he doesn't have to do AA or deal with fireballs. :mad:

Azza

I don't think Akuma is the in the same class as Ryu and Zangief. I have him B ranked. But then again he has no bad match ups against the arcade roster. Just not as strong as the above 3. Of the console characters Seth is at least a B rank (Justin Wong regards him as the best character). I'd put Rufus and Boxer at the top of class B.

I think Blanka is a B class still. I regard Chun-Li as B class as well and I drop ELF down to D class.

Dhalsim I'n not sure. I think he's very hit and miss. But he sure is fun.

There is numerous tier listings. Its hard to tell as things change quiet abit. Bison use to be ranked two in the order in the first tier listings but he usually shows 6th to 10th now. But everyone is in agreement with the top 3. Its always Sagat, Ryu and Gief.

Kirby

bush wrote: »

What do ya think of the new tier list that just came out? Looks about right to me.

S Rank: Sagat
A Rank: Ryu, Akuma, Zangief
B Rank: M.Bison, Rufus, Balrog, C.Viper, E.Honda
C Rank: Abel, El Fuerte, Dhalsim, Chun-li, Ken, Blanka
D Rank: Guile, Vega

So you would class Sim in the same category as Ken and Elf? Really? I mean really, really? :eek:

There are some very good Sim players out there. Iyo, Tateyama, Mochi, Arturo sanchez....and these are just guys off the top of my head. Yes, sim has limits and deficiencies.....you can't afford to make a big mistake or you will lose the round. Most guys like sagat or ryu or zangief can mess up several times and still win the round and sim cannot.

But when you see guys like Iyo play him to his potential and you see how easy they make it look, it makes sense.

Sticking honda above him is a bit naff. Yes, he does alot of damage but I find honda a bit one dimensional. Same level perhaps, but not above. Its also worth noting that Dhalsim is one of the few match ups that are about 5-5 with Sagat....so that should surely help his ranking.

This sort of stuff is usually subjective however and its nice to see other peoples views. I would put Ryu up there with Sagat in the top tier. He is so good its scary.

Dreddybajs

Kirby wrote: »

So you would class Sim in the same category as Ken and Elf? Really? I mean really, really? :eek:

It's not what bush thinks, it's the Japanese arcade data tiers.

Also imo the RSF loop is enough to get Fuerte out of the D rank.

edit: Oh forgot bush said "looks about right" as well. My bad. I'd probably put Sim around there on the list though, yeah.

bush

Dreddybajs wrote: »

It's not what bush thinks, it's the Japanese arcade data tiers.

Also imo the RSF loop is enough to get Fuerte out of the D rank.

edit: Oh forgot bush said "looks about right" as well. My bad. I'd probably put Sim around there on the list though, yeah.

Ye I didnt come up with this list, lol. Its the new arcadia list. I do agree dhalsim should be higher, I said that above.

Kirby

I meant "you" as in the general community. Not as in YOU mr bush

Leprekaun

Akuma way up there? Ah come on. Those 750 health points are a huge hinderance. I don't really get how he's ranked way up there. His ultra/super is near impossible to land unless a special setup is made but even then, its obvious that the other player is trying to set it up.
I mean, fair enough, he has some nasty combos (i.e.: cr.jabx2, cr. mp, l.tatsu, h.shoryuken (3-hit), FADC then Shanketsu) which I think does around 380 pts. damage but its no good having some nasty combos if you're not willing to accept the risk of a counter.


Surely Akuma should be a couple ranks below that. I think Chun Li should be moved up a rank though because she does have the sbf kick which just requires some timing and it would work.

L31mr0d

Leprekaun wrote: »

Akuma way up there? Ah come on.

I'd be in agreement with that tier list

Like Azza said, he doesn't really have any bad match ups. There are also at least 4 or 5 different ways per character to guarantee an Ultra will land. Also, his super, especially his Super Kara Demon (made really easy with the lax controls in SFIV) has the same priority as a throw.

CodeMonkey

Leprekaun wrote: »

His ultra/super is near impossible to land unless a special setup is made but even then, its obvious that the other player is trying to set it up.

There's a lot of situations where you can use raging demon on reaction to punish without special setup.

Owwmykneecap

Top: Sagat, Ryu,
High: Zangief, Rufus, C.Viper,
Mid: M.Bison, Balrog, Abel, Akuma, Dhalsim, Chun-li, Blanka, Ken,
Low: El Fuerte, E.Honda,
Bottom: Guile, Vega

That's how i see it. though Bison Balrog Abel Akuma and Dhalsim might be mid-high with Chun li Blanka and ken as mid.

ryu is like playing easy mode.

L31mr0d

CodeMonkey wrote: »

There's a lot of situations where you can use raging demon on reaction to punish without special setup.

Also, I think I mentioned this to you at the last meet, but you don't even have to input: lp,lp,(f or b),lk,hp for the demon, pressing: f,PPP,PPP,df or db,~lk+PPP works as well and gets it out a lot faster, it also karas the demon and masks your lp's which are a dead give away that an Akuma is buffering for an Ultra or Super.

Azza

I just don't rate C.Viper at all. Reckon Abel is much scarier than she is.

I rate Rufus and Balrog right after the top 3. One of the more recent Japanese tier listing had Boxer second after Sagat. Then clumped together Bison, Akuma, Chun-Li, Blanka.

Kirby

I just can't see a Chun Li player ever winning a tournament. I mean, Im usually irritated by chun li players when i fight them......but ultimately I always win. I just dont think she offers enough to be anywhere near most of the others. You watch some good viper players play and you get it instantly. Overheads, mix-ups, lethal combo's, quick punishes etc. You can see why she is dangerous.

Kirby

Kirby wrote: »

I just can't see a Chun Li player ever winning a tournament.

I may end up eating my words on this one. Been doing alot of video watching yesterday and today and that Nemo fellow plays a mean Chun Li. I could see him winning a tourney with her. Time will tell.