Design a logo?

Maccattack

I'm setting up a myspace page for some songs I've recorded. It would be nice to have some kind of logo or graphics for the page.

Any of you guru's want to give it a try?

The 'band' name is Urban Plan? (with the ?)

Page is here

peejay1986

Maccattack wrote: »

Any of you guru's want to give it a try?

Are you paying?

Deliverance

I like the music. But it drowns out the words of the fella doing the singing, can't understand a word he is singing;). Is he trying to be leanard cohen? Ps if you make some bucks from your art will you pay the 'artists' who designed your 'new' logo'?

Maccattack

considering the amount of music ive produced for free...


I was just hoping someone could do me a little favour. I doubt Im gonna make any money out of it.





Saying that, I might get a website going. Would probably HAVE TO pay for that I guess.

Deliverance

Maccattack wrote: »

considering the amount of music ive produced for free...


I was just hoping someone could do me a little favour. I doubt Im gonna make any money out of it.





Saying that, I might get a website going. Would probably HAVE TO pay for that I guess.

Try making a more attractive deal with folks. There is a lot of talent on the forum. Asking a designer to work for free is wrong.

I.e. if you asked a plumber or a builder to do work for free and they did it on request then it would be great but that just doesn't happen because it would put a lot of other hard workers out in the cold with no income (because others were doing it for 'free').

Any person that does design work for free would in effect be bringing down the value and amount of work that goes into the process of said design. A lot of work goes into this type of work. It should not be done for free unless it is for a charity or other worthy cause in my opinion.

I feel that folks outside of the design process do not appreciate the amount of work that really goes into it. I'd love to design you guys a logo but I certainly will not do it for free!

Maccattack

Deliverance wrote: »

Try making a more attractive deal with folks. There is a lot of talent on the forum. Asking a designer to work for free is wrong.

I.e. if you asked a plumber or a builder to do work for free and they did it on request then it would be great but that just doesn't happen because it would put a lot of other hard workers out in the cold with no income (because others were doing it for 'free').

Any person that does design work for free would in effect be bringing down the value and amount of work that goes into the process of said design. A lot of work goes into this type of work. It should not be done for free unless it is for a charity or other worthy cause in my opinion.

I feel that folks outside of the design process do not appreciate the amount of work that really goes into it. I'd love to design you guys a logo but I certainly will not do it for free!

Mate I have made music for struggling film makers, recorded bands that didnt have a cent to their name sometimes not just for 'free' but at a co$t to me.


I know how much work goes into it and with respect it isnt as much work as the recording process.

Sometimes it's nice to help people out.

If you don't want to then fine. No problem. I just thought I'd ask.

Pixelcraft

With respect, how do you know? It would be nice for a moderator to clean up this sort of stuff, or at least change the forum title to free work requests. What you choose to do with your time, and what you choose to charge, or not charge for is irrelevant.

Baggio...

Maccattack wrote: »

I know how much work goes into it and with respect it isnt as much work as the recording process.

Well, if it's that easy why not do it yourself then?

If you want a logo, it's only fair to offer some cash for it. Why should anyone here work for nothing when they could be working for a paying client instead? You wouldn't ask a plumber up to fix you pipes for free now would you (as the op pointed out)?

If you've done lots of "free" recording that's your prerogative. But it's got nothing to do with anyone here working for free.

warrenaldo

If you are willing to pay a small amount - try this out.
http://www.logomaker.com/
I use it for free to design for prototypes.

Deliverance

Maccattack wrote: »

Mate I have made music for struggling film makers, recorded bands that didnt have a cent to their name sometimes not just for 'free' but at a co$t to me.


I know how much work goes into it and with respect it isnt as much work as the recording process.

Sometimes it's nice to help people out.

If you don't want to then fine. No problem. I just thought I'd ask.

Jeez your making me feel bad now. You could try different fonts for your logo, there are some pretty cool ones out there for free which could be used as a half decent logo for your site.

http://www.dafont.com/ Is a good enough site.

search for something like urban or grunge in the sites search box and see what comes up? Hope that helps a bit.

ztoical

Maccattack wrote: »

Mate I have made music for struggling film makers, recorded bands that didnt have a cent to their name sometimes not just for 'free' but at a co$t to me.

And that was your choice, doesn't mean you should expect other creatives to offer the same and one can argue it's not really free cus if those bands or film makers do make something of themselves it can come back as something positive to you.

Maccattack wrote: »

I know how much work goes into it and with respect it isnt as much work as the recording process.

No you don't know, cus if you did you wouldn't make statements like that.

Maccattack wrote: »

Sometimes it's nice to help people out.

Yes it is but where does one draw the line? For alot of people on here this is their career not a hobby and they have bills to pay.

Maccattack

seriously guys. wake up to yourselves.

you'd swear i DEMANDED someone do it.


thanks anyway. Good luck with yourselves.

Deliverance

Maccattack wrote: »

seriously guys. wake up to yourselves.

you'd swear i DEMANDED someone do it.


thanks anyway. Good luck with yourselves.

For fecks sake, don't take it so personally. Create some kind of logo yourself from the advice that has been given above and throw the result up for folks to offer some possible enhancements. Then at least it shows you made an effort and folks may add to it.

Asking for it to be done for nought and then getting pee'd offf about it is just a plain attitude which won't cut it.

No one thinks that you demanded it but it is a sensitive issue because a lot of people outside the biz thinks that it is easy, no self respected designer will offer their services for free for a lot of reasons.

Best not to cut off your nose to spite your face really. I still think that dafont.com will be a good start for you. A grunge or Urban font will work well for a start.

Point in fact that you might want to consider is that 'A company I worked for paid 2k for a logo design and the resulting logo was crap'. I redesigned it for them as an employee on work experience for a fraction of the price and then got overwhelmed with tons of work from them which they expected to be done for peanuts as a result of my cheap and cheerful work which I spent hours and days on. I won't put myself through that again.

I'll leave it at that. Hope it works out for you.

Baggio...

Maccattack wrote: »

seriously guys. wake up to yourselves.

you'd swear i DEMANDED someone do it.


thanks anyway. Good luck with yourselves.

Remember, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out!

Hank_Scorpio

I'd be surprised if a real designer did this for free. Saying that, you'll get a hack doing it for free. It will be a poor logo at best and then you'll tell people that you got it from a "designer" in the Digital Arts on Boards.ie

Which just brings down the name of graphic design and the board.


Anyway. Need more info on what you would like for your logo. I am not going to listen to the music and try to extrapolate what type of band you are and your views.

Like if included a crucifix (or something) and your religion or music was not anti-christian or something.

Can't just design a logo based on music playing on MySpace.


Tell us about yourself and the band. Where you play. What type of music etc.

Couldn't imagine "Metallica" using the same font as "The Beatles" for example.



Perhaps you could offer a pre-contract to the designer, so if you do start making cds and selling them that the designer gets the first cd and booklet design.

Or if you have a gig coming up and you need posters doing that they will do the posters and be paid. After all it's a paying gig.


Throw out an idea that would attract a designer - if you can't pay now then perhaps something can be worked out.

weirdear

Back in 86/87 i designed a logo for my dad's golf classic and i see it is now the logo for a certain Dubai Golf Club. Is this allowed? I mean it is a blatant copy of my design!!

Hank_Scorpio

If you have the original sketches, and proof that it's your logo then they should be buying it from you to use. But you have to prove it with dated evidence.

If you have this then consult a lawyer.

weirdear

Thanks Hank. I have it on a piece of Crystal and the date of the competition is etched onto the glass piece. Will consult a lawyer and get advice.

Jonesy3110

weirdear wrote: »

Back in 86/87 i designed a logo for my dad's golf classic and i see it is now the logo for a certain Dubai Golf Club. Is this allowed? I mean it is a blatant copy of my design!!

Can u post pics? Maybe it's just a generic icon. It might be good to get some opinions on whether or not it is a copy before spending money on a lawyer.

Deliverance

Wasn't their a popular american tv company that spent thousands on a logo only to find out that some chap had already coincidently designed the same logo on spec for a small company (in alaska)? The resulting case was that the popular american tv company had to buy the rights from the original creator for quite a high price?

I have the text somewhere but can't find it at the mo. If I can find it I'll put it up.

Would be interesting to quote this case for this issue.

Pub07

Jesus Christ what is it with the elitist knob heads in this forum??

Here is a guy who innocently asked, not demanded would anyone on the boards.ie design forum be interesting in making a logo for a band. A guy who has helped out many others for free and sometimes at cost to himself in the music area, just out of the spirit of doing others a favour and helping his fellow musicians out. And straight away in come the design elites of this board to wreck his head over it and make a big deal out of nothing. And start demanding he cough up cash. Obviously it must be very hard for the serious artists like yourselves here to comprehend helping someone out for free or at a cost to yourself. For god sake he's not looking for one of you 'big guns' to do it, he's looking for a normal boards.ie user who's interested in art/design and who would like to create a logo for a band. If you don't want to do it fair enough there's no need to spoil his thread and put off others who might be interested.

Obviously he's just looking for a hobbyist not a pro designer. And the time a hobbyist would have to dedicate to creating a logo for the OP, out of their own choice, is not comparable to the time it takes to record a band or score a short film. Its not even close. If you tell a band you'll do a demo for them out of a favour you are looking at at least 30-40 hours work and you can't just decide to finish 'whenever'. Whereas a simple logo as the op requested would not take near that amount of time for a hobbyist (which is what the op is obviously looking for) and in the end they hobbyist could decide to finish whenever they liked no problem.

I think it's a disgrace that an obviously decent person like the op, who has helped out many others for nothing in the past, gets treated like this on this board when he makes an innocent request for some help himself. Ive noticed it before here that there is a seriously lousy vibe on this forum thanks to some members who seem to have a chip on their shoulder over something or other.

Baggio...

Pub07 wrote: »

Ive noticed it before here that there is a seriously lousy vibe on this forum thanks to some members who seem to have a chip on their shoulder over something or other.

Yeah, it's those pesky designers asking for money again for their work.... some cheek they have.

ErinGoBrath

Pub07 wrote: »

Jesus Christ what is it with the elitist knob heads in this forum??

Here is a guy who innocently asked, not demanded would anyone on the boards.ie design forum be interesting in making a logo for a band. A guy who has helped out many others for free and sometimes at cost to himself in the music area, just out of the spirit of doing others a favour and helping his fellow musicians out. And straight away in come the design elites of this board to wreck his head over it and make a big deal out of nothing. And start demanding he cough up cash. Obviously it must be very hard for the serious artists like yourselves here to comprehend helping someone out for free or at a cost to yourself. For god sake he's not looking for one of you 'big guns' to do it, he's looking for a normal boards.ie user who's interested in art/design and who would like to create a logo for a band. If you don't want to do it fair enough there's no need to spoil his thread and put off others who might be interested.

Obviously he's just looking for a hobbyist not a pro designer. And the time a hobbyist would have to dedicate to creating a logo for the OP, out of their own choice, is not comparable to the time it takes to record a band or score a short film. Its not even close. If you tell a band you'll do a demo for them out of a favour you are looking at at least 30-40 hours work and you can't just decide to finish 'whenever'. Whereas a simple logo as the op requested would not take near that amount of time for a hobbyist (which is what the op is obviously looking for) and in the end they hobbyist could decide to finish whenever they liked no problem.

I think it's a disgrace that an obviously decent person like the op, who has helped out many others for nothing in the past, gets treated like this on this board when he makes an innocent request for some help himself. Ive noticed it before here that there is a seriously lousy vibe on this forum thanks to some members who seem to have a chip on their shoulder over something or other.

Well said man. If you don't want to help the guy ignore the thread simple as. Maybe someone else is willing to give him a dig out for free.

ztoical

ErinGoBrath wrote: »

If you don't want to help the guy ignore the thread simple as.

normally I would tell people to do just that but when someone says "I know how much work goes into it and with respect it isnt as much work as the recording process." can you blame people that spent years in college learning their skills and take pride in the work they do for taking it a little personal? I wouldn't go into any of the music forums ask for something for free and then put down the talent of the people in that forum.

Baggio...

ErinGoBrath wrote: »

Well said man. If you don't want to help the guy ignore the thread simple as. Maybe someone else is willing to give him a dig out for free.

I think his post would be better in a begging forum...

I notice the guys who've suddenly sprang up with objections don't seem to work as designers or illustrators for a living - or am I wrong?

Go to a local restaurant and say something like:
"Hey gimme a pizza for free.. I deserve it, I helped someone out once. I know it only takes a few minutes too cook, a go on..."

Let me know how you get on.

ztoical wrote: »

normally I would tell people to do just that but when someone says "I know how much work goes into it and with respect it isnt as much work as the recording process."

He was pretty disrespectful as the OP said... he got some flak which he well deserved.



I asked a good friend of mine would he spray my tank for my motorbike, if he had some free time... I offered to pay him. I don't expect anyone to work for nothing. He wouldn't take the cash, even when I tried to force him to... So at a later date I did him a logo (for free) because he helped me out.

The point I'm making is, that our "boyo" here, didn't even offer anything to the professional or non-professional, it doesn't really matter is still someones time. No skill swap...not a bottle of whiskey.... 'nout. It's just the principal of the thing.... and then gets "put out" when people ask for cash. I'm sure he charges for his work, or does he do it all for free?

Pub07

ztoical wrote: »

normally I would tell people to do just that but when someone says "I know how much work goes into it and with respect it isnt as much work as the recording process." can you blame people that spent years in college learning their skills and take pride in the work they do for taking it a little personal? I wouldn't go into any of the music forums ask for something for free and then put down the talent of the people in that forum.

He said that because even after mentioning that he has done plenty of work in the music area for free and how he is just looking for a favour the very next post some guy comes along and says "Asking a designer to work for free is wrong" and "I feel that folks outside of the design process do not appreciate the amount of work that really goes into it".

He didn't put anyone's talent down, he made a simple point that he has done alot of work for nothing helping others and that generally there is more work/time involved when you are doing music production work for free as opposed to design work done for free, and I outlined why in my above post. I don't see how that is knocking anyone's talent.

The knives were out for him even before he said that anyway as the gobsh*tes with attitude problems on this forum have shown before that they have problems doing simple favours for anyone. They seem to consider knocking up a simple graphic/logo for somebody the same as doing pro design work and demand the requester pay for it no matter how trivial. Even when the requester has casually said that they are just looking for a helping hand and they can't pay. They make a request, why can't the guys with the big egos just keep out of it if they are not interested and let the hobbyists make up their own minds if they'd like to do it. How many of the thousands of garage bands/bedroom musicians out there hire in pro graphic designers to do a logo for god sake?

Whereas you go to other forums here, the web dev forum for example, and the experienced members regularly to go into other peoples sites, they don't even have to be asked sometimes they just offer, and troubleshoot problems for them which is professional work that the site owner would otherwise have to hire a consultant for.

The attitude of some in this forum is a joke.

Pub07

Baggio... wrote: »

I think his post would be better in a begging forum...

I notice the guys who've suddenly sprang up with objections don't seem to work as designers or illustrators for a living - or am I wrong?

Go to a local restaurant and say something like:
"Hey gimme a pizza for free.. I deserve it, I helped someone out once. I know it only takes a few minutes too cook, a go on..."

If someone wants to do that whats the problem? Why can't the owner of the pizza restaurant make up his own mind if he wants to give out a free pizza with out every other restaurant owner in the vicinty getting involved? Basically the point is, the op's post is none of your business if you are not interested, so you should stay out of it and not spoil his thread.

I asked a good friend of mine would he spray my tank for my motorbike, if he had some free time... I offered to pay him. I don't expect anyone to work for nothing. He wouldn't take the cash, even when I tried to force him to... So at a later date I did him a logo (for free) because he helped me out.

The point I'm making is, that our "boyo" here, didn't even offer anything to the professional or non-professional, it doesn't really matter is still someones time. No skill swap...not a bottle of whiskey.... 'nout. It's just the principal of the thing.... and then gets "put out" when people ask for cash. I'm sure he charges for his work, or does he do it all for free?

So f**king what if he didn't offer anything? What's the problem? People ask for help all the time on loads of forums on boards.ie, and every other forum on the net, and people help them out. Some of the programming stuff people troubleshoot for the benefit of their fellow members takes serious amounts of time/effort but people don't even consider asking for payment as they just like to help. People help each other out all the time for nothing. I used to play in a band a few years ago and I was helped out on more than one occasion by guys like the op who gave serious amounts of their time helping out with recording and some other stuff and didn't ask for or demand anything in return. Some of it was also at cost to themselves. These types of people are very decent unlike the morons who start demanding payment for trivial favours.

Of course the op charges for his work but as he said he has also done lots for free and sometimes at cost to himself. If you ask for a favour there is no law saying you have to give something in return. And no-one is forced to help you out, they can do so of their own free will if they chose. What is definitely not needed in the process is guys with big egos and who are not interested sticking their noses in and spoling the thread.

Baggio...

Pub07 wrote: »

If someone wants to do that whats the problem? Why can't the owner of the pizza restaurant make up his own mind if he wants to give out a free pizza with out every other restaurant owner in the vicinty getting involved? Basically the point is, the op's post is none of your business if you are not interested, so you should stay out of it and not spoil his thread.

He sure can... but he can also say (and probably will) "sod off". I'm all proving my theory - try it any restaurant and see how you get on. Spoiling the thread eh? So, I guess it might stop other people posting here, and asking form "free work".... Hmmm... that's a good result in my book.

Pub07 wrote: »

Basically the point is, the op's post is none of your business if you are not interested, so you should stay out of it and not spoil his thread.

It is my business... when people are not willing to pay for work form designers, which undermines our industry.

Pub07 wrote: »

so you should stay out of it and not spoil his thread.

Um... no.
Remember, your attendance is not compulsory here.

Pub07 wrote: »

Of course the op charges for his work but as he said he has also done lots for free and sometimes at cost to himself. If you ask for a favour there is no law saying you have to give something in return. And no-one is forced to help you out, they can do so of their own free will if they chose. What is definitely not needed in the process is guys with big egos and who are not interested sticking their noses in and spoling the thread.

Asking for advise on threads is completely separate from asking someone to give up their time, and do some work for 'nout. Anyone here would be more that willing to offer advise to anyone. But go onto the "mechanics" forum and ask if they will change your exhaust for free.

Pub07 wrote: »

Of course the op charges for his work but as he said he has also done lots for free and sometimes at cost to himself. If you ask for a favour there is no law saying you have to give something in return. And no-one is forced to help you out, they can do so of their own free will if they chose. What is definitely not needed in the process is guys with big egos and who are not interested sticking their noses in and spoling the thread.

Again, and I'm not the only on who pointed this out. So what if he's done work for free!? What the hell has that got to do with anything? I've done lots of work for free in my past, for charity and my mates. So does that mean I can go anywhere I like and expect something for nothing?

If what you mean by "spoiling the thread" is that it will not encourage other people to ask for free work - then that's a job well done.

ztoical

Pub07 wrote: »

He said that because even after mentioning that he has done plenty of work in the music area for free and how he is just looking for a favour the very next post some guy comes along and says "Asking a designer to work for free is wrong" and "I feel that folks outside of the design process do not appreciate the amount of work that really goes into it".

Do you work in graphic design, illustration or animation? Go to the a site like creativeireland which is for professional designers and ask that question and you will get a hell of alot more grief then the has been given on this thread. That the OP claims to have done free work in his field has nothing to do with the post, that was his choice.

Pub07 wrote: »

He didn't put anyone's talent down, he made a simple point that he has done alot of work for nothing helping others and that generally there is more work/time involved when you are doing music production work for free as opposed to design work done for free, and I outlined why in my above post. I don't see how that is knocking anyone's talent.

Yes they did, they clearly said that they "know" how much work goes into design and it isn't as much work as they do - that to me is showing a total lack of understanding of how much work really goes into design and is very disrespectful.

Pub07 wrote: »

Whereas you go to other forums here, the web dev forum for example, and the experienced members regularly to go into other peoples sites, they don't even have to be asked sometimes they just offer, and troubleshoot problems for them which is professional work that the site owner would otherwise have to hire a consultant for.

There is a very big difference between offering to look over someone work and doing work from scratch. People post design work for feedback or ask questions on how to do something and are helped no problem. Asking for something to be created is a different kettle of fish. Go into the web design forum and ask someone to create your website from nothing for nothing and see how far you get.

Hank_Scorpio

The OP choose to work for free and give his time and efforts and skills for free.

That's his choice. To come on a forum and ask someone to work for free for them is a different matter. It's different if someone offers to work for free.

I don't see why I should spend half of my day working for free when I have a other paid work to do that is worth €150 for half a day.

Weigh it up like.

It's all well and good saying that we're all pricks for wanting a bit of money for doing the logo.

But you wouldn't go on a Construction Forum and ask someone to build you a shed for free, simply because you worked on a building site for free for a few months.

The fact that the OP has done free work for others in a different industry doesn't mean we should bend over backwards because "he's a good guy".

You wouldn't waking to the shops and fill up the trolley with goods and then walk out. When asked why you didn't pay "Oh I did some free work with a band earlier today so I thought I'd help myself to some free food"


It's just not how our society works.


Requesting work for free is not right.

mountain

the op asked for a favour, thats all.

If people dont want to do it, just dont answer, there is no need to go on about how wrong it is to have asked.

Baggio...

mountain wrote: »

the op asked for a favour, thats all.

If people dont want to do it, just dont answer, there is no need to go on about how wrong it is to have asked.

Well, why could'nt he have offered something in return? Even if it's not cash. Perhaps, some of his recoreding skills, or even a bottle of whiskey - something like that?

And then he proceeds to tell us that it takes virtually no time to create a logo... That just shows his ignorance of the industry.

mountain

Baggio... wrote: »

Well, why could'nt he have offered something in return? Even if it's not cash. Perhaps, some of his recoreding skills, or even a bottle of whiskey - something like that?

thats a fair point, in the past i have printed jobs for people foc, and when the odd one comes back with a bottle of wine or whiskey (it really has happened) it makes it worth while, the warm feeling lasts all day.

Some times there can be as much joy in the giving as in the receiving.

Hank_Scorpio

mountain wrote: »

thats a fair point, in the past i have printed jobs for people foc, and when the odd one comes back with a bottle of wine or whiskey (it really has happened) it makes it worth while, the warm feeling lasts all day.

Some times there can be as much joy in the giving as in the receiving.

I do be on other forums and discussing prices or requesting free/spec work is strictly forbidden. And they have classified sections for actual work where payment is arranged by the two parties.

There's a legal side to this too. Not just designers with a stuck up nose.

Pub07

Baggio... wrote: »

Again, and I'm not the only on who pointed this out. So what if he's done work for free!? What the hell has that got to do with anything? I've done lots of work for free in my past, for charity and my mates. So does that mean I can go anywhere I like and expect something for nothing?

If what you mean by "spoiling the thread" is that it will not encourage other people to ask for free work - then that's a job well done.

Hank Scorpio wrote:

The OP choose to work for free and give his time and efforts and skills for free.

That's his choice. To come on a forum and ask someone to work for free for them is a different matter. It's different if someone offers to work for free.

I don't see why I should spend half of my day working for free when I have a other paid work to do that is worth €150 for half a day.

Weigh it up like.

It's all well and good saying that we're all pricks for wanting a bit of money for doing the logo.

But you wouldn't go on a Construction Forum and ask someone to build you a shed for free, simply because you worked on a building site for free for a few months.

The fact that the OP has done free work for others in a different industry doesn't mean we should bend over backwards because "he's a good guy".

You wouldn't waking to the shops and fill up the trolley with goods and then walk out. When asked why you didn't pay "Oh I did some free work with a band earlier today so I thought I'd help myself to some free food"


It's just not how our society works.


Requesting work for free is not right.

Jesus what is so hard for you to understand??? Seriously, do you not get it?? The point is he didn't come in here, as some of you are making out, expecting or demanding someone make a simple logo for him, HE HASKED would anyone like to do it. Asked as in not forcing anybody to do anything. He's entitled to ask, and people are entitled to say yes or no if they want. Why does anyone need you guys coming in and attacking the op? To reiterate, HE ASKED NOT EXPECTED OR DEMANDED someone help him.

He's not looking for one of you knob-heads to do it, he's looking for an amateur with an interest in design. So you can lay off all the 'why should we in the design industry devalue our industry or work for free' or 'I don't see why I should spend half of my day working for free when I have a other paid work to do that is worth €150 for half a day' nonsense. HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR OR EXPECTING professional designers like yourselves to do a professional job for him, he's looking for a hobbyist to knock out a quick logo that will very likely not be a patch on what he could get done if he went the professional route.

Is it that hard to understand?? He has come on here asking if someone would like to do him a simple logo and you guys are acting like he has demanded professional corporate branding or demanded a whole website has be designed from scratch for free.

Asking for advise on threads is completely separate from asking someone to give up their time, and do some work for 'nout. Anyone here would be more that willing to offer advise to anyone. But go onto the "mechanics" forum and ask if they will change your exhaust for free.

Eh, I'm not talking about just looking for advice. I was talking about pro web developers helping out less experienced people by fixing their sites for free, as in getting the admin log in details and going in and working on the code of the site. Work that would cost a fortune if they had to hire a consultant who charged by the hour to do it, which would probably be their only other option if their more experienced web developers weren't so generous and helpful. Other members on other forums here on boards also help each other for nothing in various ways, on the fitness forum for example, some of the professional trainers, have given free training sessions to less experienced members of the forum. These guys would be charging 80+ quid a session if they weren't doing it as a favour, and they are not looking for anything in return, just like the web dev guys who help out aren't looking for or demanding anything in return.


I'm getting a distinct vibe of greed off some of the members on this forum, to think that you would start demanding somebody pay for a simple logo that they asked for, for a garage band/bedroom musician is just ludicrous. No garage band gets in pro designers to do a professional logo for them, duh. And the op didn't demand anything as you made out, he simply asked. It's you knob-heads that started attacking him that are doing all the demanding, looking for cash or bottles of whiskey. :rolleyes:

If someone is interested in doing it, that's their choice, and they or the op don't need you morons spoiling his thread cos you have a chip on your shoulder about not being able to get work. That's what it seems like to me anyway as I can't imagine anyone who is up to their ears doing design work would be bothered attacking so vehemently someone who comes on a forum looking for a logo for a garage band.

Baggio...

mountain wrote: »

thats a fair point, in the past i have printed jobs for people foc, and when the odd one comes back with a bottle of wine or whiskey (it really has happened) it makes it worth while, the warm feeling lasts all day.

Very true... I recently drew a bogrhan for someone (they were offering night classes). They were a work colleague who I kinda' knew. Now, in fairness they offered to pay me right off the bat, and I said no don't worry about it. But they still insisted on buying me a bottle of whiskey. I thought that was cool - I felt that my work was appreciated... it's not always about money. Again, it's just the principal of the thing.

Baggio...

Pub07 wrote: »

He's not looking for one of you knob-heads to do it, he's looking for an amateur with an interest in design.

Careful now... that sound like an "ad hominem" attack. Getting personal eh?


Damn! those greedy designers are still asking for cash... Time is money professional or not.

Call me greedy, I don't care... Work = Cash (just like everywhere else in the world - billions of people can't be wrong).

Hank_Scorpio wrote: »

I do be on other forums and discussing prices or requesting free/spec work is strictly forbidden. And they have classified sections for actual work where payment is arranged by the two parties.

There's a legal side to this too. Not just designers with a stuck up nose.

Note those words Pub07. "strictly forbidden".

JulesInKy

I can't see what the issue is. I've worked in the design/printing business for over 20 years now. At my own discretion and choice I sometimes do work for free - not necessarily for charity. It might be a project that takes my interest, it might be something I've not had a go at before (the reality of day to day "ordinary" work for plumbers, nightclubs and beauticians can get quite boring), or it might just be that I'm in a giving mood. It also gives me a chance to express myself more freely creatively as the clients are somewhat flexible when they're getting it for nothing.

The designers that say those of us that do the odd job for free are undermining the value of their work are being a tad over dramatic. None of the unpaid work I've done has ever impacted on my income - in fact it's usually the opposite, the client that has had the freebie will usually come back for more paid work.

A little goodwill goes a long way.

Hank_Scorpio

This thread is out of control.

Baggio...

JulesInKy wrote: »

in fact it's usually the opposite, the client that has had the freebie will usually come back for more paid work. A little goodwill goes a long way.

I personally don't agree with your hypotheses there. I get jobs form people who like my work, or who get referred from previous clients. I've never been given more work for any of the free stuff that I ever did, when I was much younger and pretty naive. That's just form my own personal experience anyway (15 years in the industry). Also, if you give you work out for free - people will never really appreciate its value - and that's the same with most industries.

If you provide a good professional service, and charge a fair rate you'll always get the same clients coming back, time and time again.

JulesInKy wrote: »

The designers that say those of us that do the odd job for free are undermining the value of their work are being a tad over dramatic.

Of course the industry is not going to implode if people do a few jobs for free. But what does happen (as one previous poster alluded to), with this particular forum anyway, is that we are seen as a "soft touch". Word spreads, and then you've got more and more freeloaders asking for things for nout. Which, and correct me if I'm wrong here, shouldn't be happing on the design thread at all. If memory serves correctly people were not supposed to ask, or expect the guys here to give out freebies.

In fact it might be good to get a sticky up there...

JulesInKy wrote: »

A little goodwill goes a long way.

It's certainly does, but in the right context.

Now what does go a long way is helping your clients out after the job is done and dusted. I've often get asked for "tweaks" and I do these for free (as long as they don't take the piss). This keeps me on a really good footing with people, and they feel like they are getting value for money. It's just good business to provide decent aftercare for your clients.

ztoical

Hank_Scorpio wrote: »

This thread is out of control.

+ 1 seriously - where are the forum mods? surely there needs to be some set structure for people asking for freebies in the forum charter. they have them for asking for feedback on work.

ztoical

Pub07 wrote: »

Jesus what is so hard for you to understand??? Seriously, do you not get it?? The point is he didn't come in here, as some of you are making out, expecting or demanding someone make a simple logo for him, HE HASKED would anyone like to do it. Asked as in not forcing anybody to do anything. He's entitled to ask, and people are entitled to say yes or no if they want. Why does anyone need you guys coming in and attacking the op? To reiterate, HE ASKED NOT EXPECTED OR DEMANDED someone help him.

I made no comment about the OP asking for free work until after he made the comment about the work not being that hard. People are welcome to ask for free work and people are welcome to offer to do it for free but it is their choice but don't put down the talent of those people professional or amateur, you've asking for their help and then insulted them.

Pub07 wrote: »

He's not looking for one of you knob-heads to do it, he's looking for an amateur with an interest in design. So you can lay off all the 'why should we in the design industry devalue our industry or work for free' or 'I don't see why I should spend half of my day working for free when I have a other paid work to do that is worth €150 for half a day' nonsense. HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR OR EXPECTING professional designers like yourselves to do a professional job for him, he's looking for a hobbyist to knock out a quick logo that will very likely not be a patch on what he could get done if he went the professional route.

In the first post the OP never said he wanted a hobbyist, it was left open to all which included those posting on the forum who are professionals. The OP works in music, in his very first post he said he didn't think he was going to make any money off, that implies that he is going to try but he thinks chances are it won't make any but there is that chance that it could. That is a big legal issue road your going down there. Say someone on here does do a logo for free then next year you see it everywhere if the OP made a big break with his music...where does the designer stand then? You can say o that will never happen but pretty much every designer on here can tell you ten times that has happened to them or someone close. This might a good read for some people on here, it's written for comics freelancers but applies to all areas of the creative arts.

Pub07 wrote: »

Eh, I'm not talking about just looking for advice. I was talking about pro web developers helping out less experienced people by fixing their sites for free, as in getting the admin log in details and going in and working on the code of the site.

Going in and fixing some code is not the same as designing and building a site from nothing.

ztoical

Right I've PM'd the mods to ask them to either lock the post or keep an eye on it as we're honestly going no where and it's one step a way from personal name calling, which I know no one wants. Rather then keeping going in circles why not start a thread to discuss the ins and outs, pros and cons and legal aspects of doing free design work in a new thread?

Baggio...

ztoical wrote: »

In the first post the OP never said he wanted a hobbyist, it was left open to all which included those posting on the forum who are professionals.

Damn straight.... I'm sure he'd have been very happy to take a free logo off a professional.

And then began to winge just because someone asked if it was a paying job.

ztoical wrote: »

Right I've PM'd the mods to ask them to either lock the post or keep an eye on it as we're honestly going no where and it's one step a way from personal name calling, which I know no one wants. Rather then keeping going in circles why not start a thread to discuss the ins and outs, pros and cons and legal aspects of doing free design work in a new thread?

+ 1

Be good to get a set of guidelines nailed down in order to stop these shenanigans (maybe a sticky as I said earlier).

Hank_Scorpio

I PM'd the OP and offered to do a logo.

It's just ridiculous that someone asks for something and this happens.

We do need rules that's why things get out of hand like this.


Hope the OP gets my PM.

ztoical

Hank_Scorpio wrote: »

We do need rules that's why things get out of hand like this.

Yes, I think everything has been twisted somewhat in this thread and it's coming out as an attack or something. I've done my fair share of free jobs, I'm sure everyone one on here has done there share of them as well, this is not a case of greed as is being implied but it's not a clear cut thing as people might think, as you mentioned Hank there are legal issues people aren't aware of and other issues. Lets see what the mods say about up dating the charter or a stickie on topic.

LoLth

Right. I'm closing this thread and I'll have a chat with the forum mods aout how to handle posts like this in future.

However:

The OP asked a simple question of a community. when asked how much, he replied, well as a favour. as soon as there was no mention of renumeration, the tone of the replies turned south. If i were a new user I would be very put off by the attitude displayed by some of the posters in this thread.

I work in IT. I fix machines for a living. I fix the machines of my extended family for free. I am asked advice and I give it, to taxi drivers, friends of friends, people I meet in the pub etc. everyone goes, "oh you work in IT. My computer......" I dont expect anything for it (unless its a large cost outlay for me - motherboard fried, buy a new one and I'll install it for you, this would be a good one to get and its cheap) but when I do get a thank you or even a gift, its nice.

The guy asked for a favour. who knows, maybe he has influential friends (he recorded for bands etc maybe they'll want some design work in the future nad he'll recommend you while pointing to the logo you did for his site, or maybe having a logo on public display will get it noticed and lead to an inquiry, perhaps even a link on the page to say "logo by X".

In all honesty, I am unsure which saddens me more, the almost mercenary "how much" attitude or the absolute incredulity that someone might actually ASK you to do something for the hell of it and not expect a reward.

In future. if you dont want to help a poster, DONT REPLY TO THE POST. With no replies, he'll get the message and go somewhere else. all you've managed to do here is behave like spoiled children with a healthy dose of primadonna thrown in for good measure.

thread closed.