Seven out of 10 favour immigration restrictions

PaulieD

A large majority believe immigration from new EU member states into Ireland should be restricted because the perilous economic situation means we no longer have enough jobs, a Sunday Independent poll has revealed.
Nearly seven out of ten Irish people now want the inflow of foreign nationals to be curtailed fearing that further new arrivals will strain the social welfare system.
The poll was conducted after it was revealed in the Sunday Independent last week that the number of foreign nationals on the Live Register is now about 80,000 -- or around 20 per cent of the total.
Asked: "Do you think Ireland, in line with most other European countries, should restrict immigrants from new EU accession countries?" 67 per cent of respondents replied Yes and 33 per cent answered No.
Many respondents believed it was unsustainable to allow more and more people in given the size of the country and the economic crisis.
Others pointed out that there had been a need for labour during the boom years but that demand was gone.
Some respondents also expressed fears that more immigration from these countries would lead to a strain on the welfare system and a small minority believed that fraud was an issue.
"We do not have the jobs anymore and if people come over and just end up on the dole that is just going to cause problems," according to one respondent.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/seven-out-of-10-favour-immigration-restrictions-1794640.html

Is it time to temporarily close our borders to the accession states until our economy picks up?

Under the Accession Treaties, Ireland can apply to the EU Commission for the temporary reintroduction of labour-market restrictions on the accession states.

oscarBravo

PaulieD wrote: »

Is it time to temporarily close our borders to the accession states until our economy picks up?

Why stop at the accession states? We should close our borders to all foreigners, while still demanding our right to live and work freely elsewhere in the Union. We should selectively apply import tariffs on agricultural goods that compete with home-produced equivalents, while still freely exporting. We should make sure that only Irish fishermen can fish Irish waters, but also allow them to fish elsewhere in the EU. We should continue to use the Euro, but set our own interest rates.

I can't see the other 26 member states having an issue with any of this.

AlekSmart

PaulieD mused.....

Asked: "Do you think Ireland, in line with most other European countries, should restrict immigrants from new EU accession countries?" 67 per cent of respondents replied Yes and 33 per cent answered No.
Many respondents believed it was unsustainable to allow more and more people in given the size of the country and the economic crisis.

Oscar Bravo retorted....

I can't see the other 26 member states having an issue with any of this.

I suppose Oscar B is correct and that Irelands desire to reintroduce such restrictions MIGHT cause some of them oul Europeans to have a hissy fit.

However as it is now turning out,most of the "Real" European countries appear to be coming around to the realization that Ireland and the Irish are NOT even vaguely European in our outlooks,belief`s or desires.

We are little more than an interesting sad little sideshow on the EU`s periphery,important only in militaristic terms due to our position as next parish to America.

In true altruistic European style,the EU gave us our chance and in equally true native Irish fashion,we could`nt find enough walls to pisx it up against.

The reality of introducing the restrictions referred to is based largely upon our VERY (In real EU terms) Social Welfare supports,both in terms of scale and amounts of payment.

Whether the present Government wants to admit it or not,the money to continue these payments is going FAST !!

Once the Social Welfare cuts are introduced and we begin to get accquainted with REAL poverty again the problem will essentially self correct......it may even be simple geographics which sorts it out for us.....Physically It`s a hell of a lot easier to be a hobo on the Amalfi coast or the Cóte d`azure than it is to have your damp extremities rot off on Custom House Quay of Parnell Square East.

Nobody (except perhaps those 50 well placed state rescued developers and bankers) in this country should consider themselves free from the threat of sudden poverty and it is hovering very close to our native shores.

Or perhaps I am too pessismistic and that Galway Races 2010 will see a sudden re-emergence of the old-guard and its winning ways......any betting folk still left out there ??

Bottle_of_Smoke

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why stop at the accession states? We should close our borders to all foreigners, while still demanding our right to live and work freely elsewhere in the Union. We should selectively apply import tariffs on agricultural goods that compete with home-produced equivalents, while still freely exporting. We should make sure that only Irish fishermen can fish Irish waters, but also allow them to fish elsewhere in the EU. We should continue to use the Euro, but set our own interest rates.

I can't see the other 26 member states having an issue with any of this.

Fairly out of proportion response there. Yeah I think we certainly should limit immigration in some ways. Its not like we'd be the only country doing it.

djpbarry

PaulieD wrote: »

A large majority believe immigration from new EU member states into Ireland should be restricted because the perilous economic situation means we no longer have enough jobs, a Sunday Independent poll has revealed.

If we’re going to talk about restricting immigration, then surely the prime target should be British migrants?

PaulieD wrote: »

Nearly seven out of ten Irish people now want the inflow of foreign nationals to be curtailed fearing that further new arrivals will strain the social welfare system.

That statement makes little sense, but I’d expect nothing less from the Sindo.

mike65

djpbarry wrote: »

If we’re going to talk about restricting immigration, then surely the prime target should be British migrants?

As the most numerous that makes sense and then the UK can reciprocate. And we'll all be happier.

Mena

PaulieD wrote: »

A large majority believe immigration from new EU member states into Ireland should be restricted because the perilous economic situation means we no longer have enough jobs, a Sunday Independent poll has revealed.
Nearly seven out of ten Irish people now want the inflow of foreign nationals to be curtailed fearing that further new arrivals will strain the social welfare system.

That's the funniest bit. These tits don't even know how their own SW system works.

devereaux17

Fools, as if you can just hop off the plan from Bratislava and start claiming the dole in Ireland.

wes

Well, seeing as you can't just show up here and claim Social Welfare, as several people above have already pointed out, I think it fair to say that 7 out of 10 of those people are rather misinformed on the situation.

Dannyboy83

Stupid poll, lame attempt at sensationalisim.

Most of those who responded are probably those who feel strongly about the issue anyway.

Lockstep

As soon as I read the thread title, I just knew it would involve the Sunday Independant.

lostexpectation

so why do they vote for parties like ff and fg who's has been policy is to import cheap labour

sovtek

I wonder if 7 out of ten Irish people would answer differently if asked if they would prefer to be restricted to movement inside the borders of the Republic and if they would prefer to have 30k to 50k people with American accents back here on the "live register".
I would also like to see a survey of Irish people if they are aware that many more foreign nationals paid PRSI than are on the live register.

O'Morris

As the most numerous that makes sense

I don't think that's correct. According to this, almost twice as many PPS numbers were issued to Polish people this year than were issued to people from the United Kingdom.

It's not even clear that British nationals (it's possible that nationalists from the north were included in the figure used in the census) make up the biggest non-Irish group in the population. If Conor Lenihan is right and the number of Poles in the country was around 200,000 two years ago then that would mean that Polish people now probably outnumber British people living here.

sovtek

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Fairly out of proportion response there. Yeah I think we certainly should limit immigration in some ways. Its not like we'd be the only country doing it.

I guess you are not aware that your goverment has always restricted immigration and continues to do so...although more and more without respect to its own laws much less EU law.

Riskymove

lostexpectation wrote: »

so why do they vote for parties like ff and fg who's has been policy is to import cheap labour

ah but that was different...sure we needed people to build our second homes and serve us in KFC then:rolleyes:

Hookey

Ah, how soon we forget. For 150 years we've been the immigrants (I myself worked abroad for nearly 20 years), we get a few years of immigration and we want to pull up the drawbridge. Hypocrites.

As it happens, it doesn't matter anyway, as your average Pole wasn't here for our fine weather and our pleasant dispositions. As the jobs dry up, they're going elsewhere anyway.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

It's not even clear that British nationals ... make up the biggest non-Irish group in the population.

But they are one of the biggest, right? Yet whenever a discussion on restricting immigration kicks off, nobody ever suggests that the movement of people from the UK should be limited. Why's that I wonder?

mike65

Most of the Polish are prolly quite transitory whereas most Brits came here to stay or ended up staying.

Taxipete29

Hookey wrote: »

Ah, how soon we forget. For 150 years we've been the immigrants (I myself worked abroad for nearly 20 years), we get a few years of immigration and we want to pull up the drawbridge. Hypocrites.

As it happens, it doesn't matter anyway, as your average Pole wasn't here for our fine weather and our pleasant dispositions. As the jobs dry up, they're going elsewhere anyway.

Its not hypocritical to suggest that we protect our economy. Those immigrants who came here in the good times used us as much as we used them. Some will stay, some will leave, thats what we signed up to. If we are legally enititled to restrict certain nationalities from coming here, what is the problem with that??

The USA, where many of our emigrants went( many illegally) have some of the tightest restrictions on immigration. Australia is not a free for all either.
The truth is most countries have restrictions on immigration and just because we are arriving late to the party so to speak with some of our regulations doesnt make them any less valid. It certainly doesnt make it racist or xenophobic or whatever other buzz word the pc brigade want to throw at it.

Taxipete29

djpbarry wrote: »

But they are one of the biggest, right? Yet whenever a discussion on restricting immigration kicks off, nobody ever suggests that the movement of people from the UK should be limited. Why's that I wonder?

Why should we, I would imagine of you check the numbers as many Irish people go over there every year as British people come here.

Hookey

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Its not hypocritical to suggest that we protect our economy. Those immigrants who came here in the good times used us as much as we used them. Some will stay, some will leave, thats what we signed up to. If we are legally enititled to restrict certain nationalities from coming here, what is the problem with that??

The USA, where many of our emigrants went( many illegally) have some of the tightest restrictions on immigration. Australia is not a free for all either.
The truth is most countries have restrictions on immigration and just because we are arriving late to the party so to speak with some of our regulations doesnt make them any less valid. It certainly doesnt make it racist or xenophobic or whatever other buzz word the pc brigade want to throw at it.

The hypocrisy comes from the fact that we're quite happy to feed at the teat of the EU, but we tend to forget the obligations that come with it. We took a chance on opening up to the accession states early and fully, and we benefited from it. Now times are tough, people want to backtrack.

I have no problem with points-based entry and restrictions for non-EU citizens, but the EU isn't some menu where we can pick and mix only the bits we like.

As for the comments from others on here about Brits, don't be ridiculous. There's a damn sight more of us over there, than them over here.

MiniDriver

djpbarry wrote: »

But they are one of the biggest, right? Yet whenever a discussion on restricting immigration kicks off, nobody ever suggests that the movement of people from the UK should be limited. Why's that I wonder?

Because Irish people are more dependant on the British labour market than British are dependant on the Irish labour market.

btw, the Brits are already starting to take the p*ss out of our economic predicament: http://www.thecrunchtimes.co.uk/html/090614irishemigration.html

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

But they are one of the biggest, right? Yet whenever a discussion on restricting immigration kicks off, nobody ever suggests that the movement of people from the UK should be limited.

The focus of immigration control is not on the number of people in the country - it's on the number of entering the country. The British might be one of the biggest non-national groups but that's because they're our nearest neighbour and movement between the two islands is a two-way process that has been going on for a long time. Large-scale immigration from eastern Europe only began 4 or 5 years ago while immigration from Britain has been going on for centuries. The possibility that eastern Europeans now outnumber our nearest neighbours after only a few years of immigration is a strong indication that the number of eastern Europeans entering the country is massively higher than the number of British people entering the country.

If British people did start entering the country in the same numbers as the Poles then that would be a cause of concern. If we were back in the 17th century I'd be as opposed to mass immigration from Britain as I am now opposed to mass immigration from eastern Europe.

djpbarry wrote:

Why's that I wonder?

For the same reason that the Germans and the Austrians restrict access to the eastern Europeans but not to the western Europeans. It's not in our economic interest to restrict immigration from Britain. It is in our economic interests to restrict immigration from the low-wage eastern European countries.

Britain is our next-door neighbours and we have a shared history with them that we don't have with the eastern Europeans.

spank_inferno

The original article from the Sindo is predictable in it it helps nothing

Ireland went against the vast majority of EU states in allowing full entry for the new 10 states a few years ago.

Since then we've changed out mind and blocked the same access for the newest EU entrants: Romania & Bulgaria.

Ireland, like all nations will act in its own interests.
I'm sure many people would like to see a truely open EU, but that isnt the case & it never will be.

Regarding a prev poster saying its wrong for Ireland to change its stance on inward imigration once circumstances change, but that is exactly what should be done. Because its exactly what the other 26 countries will do

oscarBravo

spank_inferno wrote: »

Regarding a prev poster saying its wrong for Ireland to change its stance on inward imigration once circumstances change, but that is exactly what should be done. Because its exactly what the other 26 countries will do

So if the UK decides to impose a ban on migration from Ireland, you'll applaud that decision?

mike65

MiniDriver, that a satire site. Nevermind.

RDM_83

oscarBravo wrote: »

So if the UK decides to impose a ban on migration from Ireland, you'll applaud that decision?

Why do you bother throwing hypotheticals like that? even apart from the historic ties (and probably legal/constitional issues to do with the prerepublic state/grandparents etc).
Since it doesn't seem clear to you the fact is that migration is like any other sort of diffusion, people move if there is is a significant difference in wages/employment prospect, employment may be more likely in the UK though wages are worse, therefore balance of UK>Ireland for higher wages Ireland>UK more employment. This is different to Ireland Poland, with massive difference in wages and high rates of unemployment (even with their boom and our bust).

sovtek

RDM_83 wrote: »

Why do you bother throwing hypotheticals like that? even apart from the historic ties (and probably legal/constitional issues to do with the prerepublic state/grandparents etc).
Since it doesn't seem clear to you the fact is that migration is like any other sort of diffusion, people move if there is is a significant difference in wages/employment prospect, employment may be more likely in the UK though wages are worse, therefore balance of UK>Ireland for higher wages Ireland>UK more employment. This is different to Ireland Poland, with massive difference in wages and high rates of unemployment (even with their boom and our bust).

Probably because it's going to be reciprocated should the "screw the foreignors" brigade ever get their way.
I will I agree with you that blaming the foreignors is a diffusion from actually tackling the real problems of the country.

oscarBravo

RDM_83 wrote: »

Why do you bother throwing hypotheticals like that?

To illustrate the point that we've signed up for the EU, and that means taking the rough with the smooth.

I don't buy the idea that a country with rising unemployment is under threat of mass immigration. There wasn't a whole lot of immigration in the 1980s.

sovtek

O'Morris wrote: »

The focus of immigration control is not on the number of people in the country - it's on the number of entering the country. The British might be one of the biggest non-national groups but that's because they're our nearest neighbour and movement between the two islands is a two-way process that has been going on for a long time. Large-scale immigration from eastern Europe only began 4 or 5 years ago while immigration from Britain has been going on for centuries. The possibility that eastern Europeans now outnumber our nearest neighbours after only a few years of immigration is a strong indication that the number of eastern Europeans entering the country is massively higher than the number of British people entering the country.

If British people did start entering the country in the same numbers as the Poles then that would be a cause of concern. If we were back in the 17th century I'd be as opposed to mass immigration from Britain as I am now opposed to mass immigration from eastern Europe.




For the same reason that the Germans and the Austrians restrict access to the eastern Europeans but not to the western Europeans. It's not in our economic interest to restrict immigration from Britain. It is in our economic interests to restrict immigration from the low-wage eastern European countries.

Britain is our next-door neighbours and we have a shared history with them that we don't have with the eastern Europeans.

Are you also opposed to the Irish having the same limits put on them?

gurramok

oscarBravo wrote: »

To illustrate the point that we've signed up for the EU, and that means taking the rough with the smooth.

I don't buy the idea that a country with rising unemployment is under threat of mass immigration. There wasn't a whole lot of immigration in the 1980s.

There was no free movement of labour bar from Britain back then.

Why would British people move from an advanced economy(UK) to a basket case(Ireland) in the 80s?:rolleyes:

gurramok

gurramok wrote: »

Why would British people move from an advanced economy(UK) to a basket case(Ireland) in the 80s?:rolleyes:

Thousands came to turn on, tune in and drop out, certainly around South Kerry and West Cork anyway.

Not that I'n complaining, far from it, the influx of non nationals, hippies or not, British or Eastern European, has greatly improved my social life and transformed communities around here. Can't be enough getting in as far as I'm concerned.

Taxipete29

Hookey wrote: »

The hypocrisy comes from the fact that we're quite happy to feed at the teat of the EU, but we tend to forget the obligations that come with it. We took a chance on opening up to the accession states early and fully, and we benefited from it. Now times are tough, people want to backtrack.

I have no problem with points-based entry and restrictions for non-EU citizens, but the EU isn't some menu where we can pick and mix only the bits we like.

As for the comments from others on here about Brits, don't be ridiculous. There's a damn sight more of us over there, than them over here.

People are entitled to their opinions. We will never try to roll back our open labour market for the countries already included. Future entrants to the EU will be subject to the same rules as we imposed on Romania and Bulgaria.

Our problems are not a result of mass immigration, but it is a factor and to deny that would be to deny reality. Would there of been such a rush to invest in property if there was not a ready rental market hungry for accomodation. A large portion came from immigrants.While there is an element of the chicken and the egg scenario in regards to this argument but it does have merit.

I am not saying that immigrants are responsible for the housing bubble, but it has to be asked. If they hadnt come in such great numbers would the bubble of grew as quick??

djpbarry

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Why should we, I would imagine of you check the numbers as many Irish people go over there every year as British people come here.

Well that would depend on what sort of timescale you’re talking about.

O'Morris wrote: »

The British might be one of the biggest non-national groups but that's because they're our nearest neighbour and movement between the two islands is a two-way process that has been going on for a long time.

A two-way process? Hardly. Irish-born people in the UK numbered over half a million in the last UK census (2001). British nationals in Ireland numbered about 112,000 in 2006. Granted, those figures will likely have changed a bit in the intervening years, but to the point that parity has been established? I doubt it.

O'Morris wrote: »

Britain is our next-door neighbours and we have a shared history with them that we don't have with the eastern Europeans.

Irrelevant from an economic perspective.

MiniDriver wrote: »

Because Irish people are more dependant on the British labour market than British are dependant on the Irish labour market.

Exactly. So on the one hand people call for a halt to migration from Eastern Europe, while at the same time they insist that Irish people be allowed access to the British labour market – complete hypocrisy.

Wheely

Over what sort of sample was the poll carried out? Using what criteria? Its pretty shoddy journalism to publish the results of a poll and not even tell how large the sample was.

Then again it is the Sunday Independent................:rolleyes:

bill_ashmount

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why stop at the accession states? We should close our borders to all foreigners, while still demanding our right to live and work freely elsewhere in the Union. We should selectively apply import tariffs on agricultural goods that compete with home-produced equivalents, while still freely exporting. We should make sure that only Irish fishermen can fish Irish waters, but also allow them to fish elsewhere in the EU. We should continue to use the Euro, but set our own interest rates.

I can't see the other 26 member states having an issue with any of this.

Yawn....

People have a right to say they want immigration reduced. This is a democracy and freedom of speech is allowed.

Your off-topic rants about fishing and interest rates are ridiculous and a childish attempt to stop the debate.

oscarBravo

bill_ashmount wrote: »

People have a right to say they want immigration reduced. This is a democracy and freedom of speech is allowed.

Since when did "freedom of speech" mean "freedom not to have to listen to a differing opinion"?

Your off-topic rants about fishing and interest rates are ridiculous and a childish attempt to stop the debate.

If I wanted to stop the debate, I'd lock the thread - then you'd have something to complain about.

I offered a contrary perspective - how unspeakably evil of me. I hope you'll recover.

Ironically, you've dragged the thread off-topic. Let's get back on now, please.

bill_ashmount

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ironically, you've dragged the thread off-topic. Let's get back on now, please.

No, I didn't, you did.

But anyway from my perspective I would like us to follow the example set by UKIP. For anyone who is interested click here

oscarBravo

bill_ashmount wrote: »

No, I didn't, you did.

Breaking news: disagreeing with the OP isn't going off-topic. Arguing about whether or not we're off-topic is off-topic. Let's stay on topic - that's not a suggestion.

But anyway from my perspective I would like us to follow the example set by UKIP. For anyone who is interested click here

The UKIP want the UK out of the EU. If you want Ireland out of the EU, fine - but I suspect you won't find too many who'll agree with that perspective.

Hookey

bill_ashmount wrote: »

No, I didn't, you did.

But anyway from my perspective I would like us to follow the example set by UKIP. For anyone who is interested click here

So you want Ireland to leave the EU? Seriously?

bill_ashmount

Hookey wrote: »

So you want Ireland to leave the EU? Seriously?

Yes, 100%.

I actually believe the EU will disintegrate anyway before Ireland chooses to leave. Anti-EU parties are on the rise all across Europe.

oscarBravo

Yay for the glory days pre-EU. Back then, when tens of thousands of foreigners crossed your border, they did it in tanks.

Ah, happy days.

sineadCharl

My god it's like listening to the Joe Duffy show and yes it is excruciating!!!

Wheely

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Yes, 100%.

I actually believe the EU will disintegrate anyway before Ireland chooses to leave. Anti-EU parties are on the rise all across Europe.

Firstly i would ask-Why?

Secondly-Re: anti-Eu parties

Libertas didn't do too well in the European elections recently did they? Please give examples of anti-EU parties which are "on the rise".

PaulieD

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why stop at the accession states? We should close our borders to all foreigners, while still demanding our right to live and work freely elsewhere in the Union. We should selectively apply import tariffs on agricultural goods that compete with home-produced equivalents, while still freely exporting. We should make sure that only Irish fishermen can fish Irish waters, but also allow them to fish elsewhere in the EU. We should continue to use the Euro, but set our own interest rates.

I can't see the other 26 member states having an issue with any of this.

Will you stop.

The poll indicates that there is a strong desire to impose temporary restrictions on the Accession States. We have over 400,000 on the dole, 20% of which are foreign, and a further 40,0000 foreigners gaining PPS numbers this year. Do you think this is sustainable?

We should now impose a work permit system like Germany and Austria. We cannot provide employment for those already in the country never mind more immigrants.

Hookey

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Yes, 100%.

I actually believe the EU will disintegrate anyway before Ireland chooses to leave. Anti-EU parties are on the rise all across Europe.

Anti-EU parties are on the rise because these parties are attractive to the disaffected during times of recession. They're as much a protest vote against incumbent governments as anything else. It doesn't mean they're remotely correct though, and it doesn't mean they're ever likely to get majority support. Most people are pragmatic enough to know the EU is better than the fragmented alternative, unable to match the economies of south and east Asia, and pretty likely to turn on each other after about five minutes if the EU broke up.

About the only thing Ireland has going for it is access to the internal market. Yes, we've lost out to Eastern Europe as costs have risen, but that's inevitable, just as its also inevitable that their costs will rise as ours fall to compete. This levelling out is the whole point of the EU. There will always be differences in standards of living between EU countries (e.g. productivity, which allows expensive Germany to keep a manufacturing base where the UK failed), but the gap will narrow, as has been proven by ourselves and countries like Greece, Spain and even Italy. An isolated Ireland has very little to offer the world apart from tourism, and ironically, a population willing to travel to get work.

Nodin

oscarBravo wrote: »

Yay for the glory days pre-EU. Back then, when tens of thousands of foreigners crossed your border, they did it in tanks.

Ah, happy days.

Yes....the swinging 40's....And what a hedonistic paradise our small Island was.

PaulieD

Hookey wrote: »

Ah, how soon we forget. For 150 years we've been the immigrants (I myself worked abroad for nearly 20 years), we get a few years of immigration and we want to pull up the drawbridge. Hypocrites.

As it happens, it doesn't matter anyway, as your average Pole wasn't here for our fine weather and our pleasant dispositions. As the jobs dry up, they're going elsewhere anyway.

America and Australia, two nations built by immigrants have the most stringent immigration policies in the western world. Are they hypocrites?

It does matter, evidence suggest that the immigrants are staying, and a further 40,000 arrived this year.

"In May Alan Barrett, an economist with the ESRI, in a paper titled The Labour Market in Recession suggested that during a downturn, migrant workers do not immediately go home.
"A significant proportion of immigrants appear to be reacting to job losses by remaining here," Mr Barrett said.
He said this could be explained by labour market conditions abroad, but he added that "welfare entitlement here may also be playing a role".

PaulieD

Nodin wrote: »

Yes....the swinging 40's....And what a hedonistic paradise our small Island was.

I could think of a lot worse places in the world to spend that particular decade.

AlekSmart

Hookey sez....

There will always be differences in standards of living between EU countries (e.g. productivity, which allows expensive Germany to keep a manufacturing base where the UK failed),

Now there IS a very pertinent post.

America and Australia, two nations built by immigrants have the most stringent immigration policies in the western world. Are they hypocrites?

Agreed PaulieD,and its a truly annoying thing for many to admit,just as the USA with a very large and thriving Muslim population represents THE destination of choice for thousands more.....much to the discombobulation of the REAL Muslims in deepest Pakistan or Afghanistan etc......Funny Ol world Innit ???