parents..

Sam Vimes

Dades wrote: »

If a school board gets to the stage where it's choosing between baptised kids and 'other' kids - it's not about the kids' rights, it's about the school's right to maintain it's "ethos". So in effect the board is allowed act in the manner it feels is best for the school.

Same result from a different direction, though.

Which means that its 'ethos' is violating people's rights and so they should not be allowed to do it as long as they receive state support

edit: In Ireland there is a specific list of things that you are not allowed to use as criteria for deciding something and they include age, sex, race, disability, membership of the travelling community, sexual orientation and religious beliefs. I don't care about their ethos, it's already illegal, it's just that the law isn't enforced. If they decided to pick the child of a straight couple over a gay one there'd be uproar

Sam Vimes

~me~ wrote: »

its not about being in a church or wetting a babys head its about allowing her to choose her religion which is a big thing for her.

If you tell her you only did it because you live in a backwards country that still discriminates against people and that she has no obligation to join that religion I'm sure she'll understand

20goto10

~me~ wrote: »

its not about being in a church or wetting a babys head its about allowing her to choose her religion which is a big thing for her.

OK well if you are saying you want your child to have a religion but that you want her to choose for herself then you might have a problem. Going to a Catholic school is obviously going to cloud her judgement. But you're also going to get that by being in a catholic society, no matter what school you send her to.

The way I see it, I had the sense to realise it was all rubbish at a very young age. I suspect my child will too, particularly as I will be pointing out how it is all a load of rubbish . For me, religion class reinforced my lack of belief, so I have no worries on that front.

There's also another factor for me and that is the standard of education in the one and only non-denominational secondary school close to my area. It's a very poor standard. I know a lot of people who went there and the vast majority of them have amounted to nothing. There is also a surprisingly high proportion of what I would call "religious nut cases" to have come out of it. It seems to me that teaching kids about all the different religions and "letting them choose" is not necessarily a good thing.

I want my child to grow up only thinking about the truth (as best as we know it). I am not interested in "letting them choose".

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

When the time comes, explain yourself of course. Honesty is the best policy.
I'm 35 and I don't talk about it with my mother!

What what what?!!?!? :eek:

Sam Vimes wrote: »

No, Ireland's like Mississippi in the 50's you see, we haven't discovered civil rights yet and they're legally entitled to discriminate on religious grounds. In a county with 99% religious schools, you are a second class citizen as a non-believer. To the back of the bus with you! :pac:

Isn't that where the cool kids traditionally hang out? :pac:

~me~

20goto10 wrote: »

OK well if you are saying you want your child to have a religion but that you want her to choose for herself then you might have a problem. Going to a Catholic school is obviously going to cloud her judgement. But you're also going to get that by being in a catholic society, no matter what school you send her to.

The way I see it, I had the sense to realise it was all rubbish at a very young age. I suspect my child will too, particularly as I will be pointing out how it is all a load of rubbish . For me, religion class reinforced my lack of belief, so I have no worries on that front.

There's also another factor for me and that is the standard of education in the one and only non-denominational secondary school close to my area. It's a very poor standard. I know a lot of people who went there and the vast majority of them have amounted to nothing. There is also a surprisingly high proportion of what I would call "religious nut cases" to have come out of it. It seems to me that teaching kids about all the different religions and "letting them choose" is not necessarily a good thing.

I want my child to grow up only thinking about the truth (as best as we know it). I am not interested in "letting them choose".

well i want her to decide what she believes whether i agree with her or not. i feel that at primary school age she is too young to make that decision and would prefer if they either didnt teach it or else they teach her about all religion and what religion is rather than force the catholic religion on her. then when old enough she wont be too scared to establish her own beliefs because its the 'done thing' or whats been drilled into her.

20goto10

~me~ wrote: »

well i want her to decide what she believes whether i agree with her or not. i feel that at primary school age she is too young to make that decision and would prefer if they either didnt teach it or else they teach her about all religion and what religion is rather than force the catholic religion on her. then when old enough she wont be too scared to establish her own beliefs because its the 'done thing' or whats been drilled into her.

What you want is possible, albeit difficult. You need an Educate Together school for primary level and a multi-denominational school for secondary school. You'll also need to be prepared to move home twice to facilitate this. There is another possibility and I don't mean this in a humerous way, that is to emigrate. It's something I have considered myself and I am still keeping open as a possibilty.

~me~

20goto10 wrote: »

What you want is possible, albeit difficult. You need an Educate Together school for primary level and a multi-denominational school for secondary school. You'll also need to be prepared to move home twice to facilitate this. There is another possibility and I don't mean this in a humerous way, that is to emigrate. It's something I have considered myself and I am still keeping open as a possibilty.

well you're spot on!
we're hoping to live in oz by then but we're hoping to send her to an educate together if we're still here (i think i said it in an earlier post).
and im hoping if we teach her well enough she'll be mature enough by secondary school to make a decision of her own regardless of its religious teachings. and if im honest i dont think the RE classes in secondary school are all that persuasive if mine are anything to go by. whereas in primary school the communion/confo leads teachers to drill it into them (morning prayers and the like).
im mainly going by my own experiences though.

Dades

Galvasean wrote: »

What what what?!!?!? :eek:

I've met you which means either (a) you were drunk or (b) that anti-aging cream I got in Christmas 2006 is working.

Dades

~me~ wrote: »

and if im honest i dont think the RE classes in secondary school are all that persuasive if mine are anything to go by. whereas in primary school the communion/confo leads teachers to drill it into them (morning prayers and the like).
im mainly going by my own experiences though.

It's been said before but always worth repeating - once your kid is "in" you can opt them out any RE within the school. Problem solved.

20goto10

Dades wrote: »

It's been said before but always worth repeating - once your kid is "in" you can opt them out any RE within the school. Problem solved.

Excellent I didn't know that

~me~

in primary school you mean?
the problem is getting them in in the first place though! without being baptised! or am i missing something?

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

I've met you which means either (a) you were drunk or (b) that anti-aging cream I got in Christmas 2006 is working.

A little from column A, a little from column B...

Dades

~me~ wrote: »

in primary school you mean?
the problem is getting them in in the first place though! without being baptised! or am i missing something?

Actually - need to check the Primary School thing... Robin might know.

As for getting them in - it's out of your hands, really!

20goto10

~me~ wrote: »

in primary school you mean?
the problem is getting them in in the first place though! without being baptised! or am i missing something?

Get them baptised to get them into school. Then opt out of religion class and bring them up your own way. There's still going to be a catholic influence in their lives. Particularly as you have said your family are practicing catholics. But it's a battle easily won imo.

~me~

20goto10 wrote: »

Get them baptised to get them into school. Then opt out of religion class and bring them up your own way. There's still going to be a catholic influence in their lives. Particularly as you have said your family are practicing catholics. But it's a battle easily won imo.

but we dont want her to have any imposed link with the church until she asks for it. including baptism. stubborn i know but its how we feel. we were both christened and made our communion and confirmation because it was expected and we dont want her to have to put up with that. it may have to be the route we take though.
basically we dont want to influence her choice of religion in any way and by baptising her we're instantly making her catholic whether it means anything or not.

redfacedbear

Sam Vimes wrote: »

In Ireland there is a specific list of things that you are not allowed to use as criteria for deciding something and they include age, sex, race, disability, membership of the travelling community, sexual orientation and religious beliefs. I don't care about their ethos, it's already illegal, it's just that the law isn't enforced. If they decided to pick the child of a straight couple over a gay one there'd be uproar

I'm a bit hazy on the details but I'm fairly sure that in the relevant Equality Legislation religious organisations were excluded from the faith grounds for discrimination and that this extends to the schools under control of the religious.

Wrong and infuriating as it is - I'm fairly sure they are within their (legal) rights to discriminate against children of different or no religion.

Edit: here's the Equality Authority's explanation of what the law says regarding being allowed to discriminate

robindch

Dades wrote: »

need to check the Primary School thing... Robin might know.

Uuuh, check what?

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Uuuh, check what?

Whether you can "opt your kids out" of RE in primary school.
Or is it just a case of be quiet in the corner you heathens...?

Mena

Dades wrote: »

Whether you can "opt your kids out" of RE in primary school.
Or is it just a case of be quiet in the corner you heathens...?

You can. Don't send them to a religiously controlled school!! :pac:

You "go with the flow" atheists... we'll never change the world this way!

Goduznt Xzst

OP, my 2c. Stick to your guns and don't get her baptized. For all the reasons you listed as well as the example you will set for her when she grows old enough to understand the stand you made for hers and your own principles and rights.

Getting her baptized might get her into a school closer to home and may allow her to be taught more information, but standing firm will teach her something a lot more important, and that is the purpose of values. She will respect your stand for her and your refusal to be seen as a liar to secure a subjective "better" education.

Plus you accept that this discrimination is not right, supporting it and giving the Catholic Church more numbers will be going against what you, at your core, expect as basic human rights.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

~me~

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

OP, my 2c. Stick to your guns and don't get her baptized. For all the reasons you listed as well as the example you will set for her when she grows old enough to understand the stand you made for hers and your own principles and rights.

Getting her baptized might get her into a school closer to home and may allow her to be taught more information, but standing firm will teach her something a lot more important, and that is the purpose of values. She will respect your stand for her and your refusal to be seen as a liar to secure a subjective "better" education.

Plus you accept that this discrimination is not right, supporting it and giving the Catholic Church more numbers will be going against what you, at your core, expect as basic human rights.


"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

well you've bought me with your 2c!
i think everything you've said is correct. thanks.

20goto10

Mena wrote: »

You can. Don't send them to a religiously controlled school!! :pac:

You "go with the flow" atheists... we'll never change the world this way!

It's not always an option. The nearest educate together school is at least 10km from my home. That means moving home, to an area I do not like and do not want to bring my kid up in. Nor am I comfortable with my kid going to a largely foreign national school (which is also of a largely religious make up, just not catholic) Weighing out the pros and cons, I'd rather just let the catholic church have their statistic. And besides, isn't it the census that's used in statistics? So in actual fact, getting baptised means absolutely nothing at all other than it makes it easier to get into your local school.

Can I ask what you plan to do when it comes to secondary school? I'm open to correction but I don't think there is a non religious school in the country.

20goto10

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

OP, my 2c. Stick to your guns and don't get her baptized. For all the reasons you listed as well as the example you will set for her when she grows old enough to understand the stand you made for hers and your own principles and rights.

Getting her baptized might get her into a school closer to home and may allow her to be taught more information, but standing firm will teach her something a lot more important, and that is the purpose of values. She will respect your stand for her and your refusal to be seen as a liar to secure a subjective "better" education.

Plus you accept that this discrimination is not right, supporting it and giving the Catholic Church more numbers will be going against what you, at your core, expect as basic human rights.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

It's hard to argue against that. Other than it still does not solve my problem of where to send my child to school...

DapperGent

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

OP, my 2c. Stick to your guns and don't get her baptized. For all the reasons you listed as well as the example you will set for her when she grows old enough to understand the stand you made for hers and your own principles and rights.

Getting her baptized might get her into a school closer to home and may allow her to be taught more information, but standing firm will teach her something a lot more important, and that is the purpose of values. She will respect your stand for her and your refusal to be seen as a liar to secure a subjective "better" education.

Plus you accept that this discrimination is not right, supporting it and giving the Catholic Church more numbers will be going against what you, at your core, expect as basic human rights.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

Take the positives outlined here and then compare them to the negatives in the scenarios of:

1. Going to a crap school
2. Having a parent tired and stressed from an unnecessary extra hours travel morning and evening for years.

~me~

20goto10 wrote: »

Can I ask what you plan to do when it comes to secondary school? I'm open to correction but I don't think there is a non religious school in the country.

was that directed at me or someone else? i wasnt sure but if so, then i'm hoping (fingers crossed!) she'll be mature enough by then to know that she can believe what she wants regardless of the RE they give her and not feel the pressure to accept what they tell her! in primary i had to pray every morning! there was none of that in secondary school!
in the secondary school i was in they taught us of all religions anyway so that would benefit her even more.
afaik if you're doing religion as an exam subject you learn of different religions around the world not just christianity. i could be wrong though!

Goduznt Xzst

DapperGent wrote: »

2. Having a parent tired and stressed from an unnecessary extra hours travel morning and evening for years.

My Aunt and Uncle are Jehovahs Witnesses and did not baptize their child as a Catholic. They ended up not getting into their local school but actually a much better school a 30 minute drive away. They said they would not take back those years of traveling to and from the school for anything as they found it was a great time to bond and talk to their child. When their son got home he would usually jump right into his homework and then watch TV and the evenings where mostly gone, but having that time alone every morning and afternoon meant they could catch up on how school was going and provided a common ground so that communication lines never broke down.

In retrospect they said getting refused from their local Catholic school was the best thing that ever happened to them.

~me~

yeh my partners school was actually a good drive away from his house too and he has said that he loved the school and didnt mind the drive every morning (i know he wasnt the one driving but still!) and he'd be prepared to do the same for our daughter. and tbh the drive musn't have killed her that much cause his mum put him in a secondary school the same distance away and still had to drive him in!

Mena

20goto10 wrote: »

It's not always an option. The nearest educate together school is at least 10km from my home. That means moving home, to an area I do not like and do not want to bring my kid up in. Nor am I comfortable with my kid going to a largely foreign national school (which is also of a largely religious make up, just not catholic) Weighing out the pros and cons, I'd rather just let the catholic church have their statistic. And besides, isn't it the census that's used in statistics? So in actual fact, getting baptised means absolutely nothing at all other than it makes it easier to get into your local school.

Can I ask what you plan to do when it comes to secondary school? I'm open to correction but I don't think there is a non religious school in the country.

Do you mind me asking you to clarify the 10Km's thing? You see, for me, that's not even a drop in the ocean. Hell, I used to commute 80Km's a day (one way) just for work. Is it a particularly congested route?

I'll let the Foreign National thing slide for now :mad: (I tek yer jawb!)

With regards to secondary school, We're hoping (but in no way confident) that options will open up. Leaving the country is on the cards though. It's not like we're really tied down.

This being said, by that time she will probably be able to make up her own mind, so we'd let her decide, but we have her name down in two schools already (in a different country).

20goto10

It's a 10k commute twice a day as oppossed to putting him/her in the school across the road (literally across the street).

I think the cons were summed up nicely above. Why send my kid to a crap school miles away just for the sake of being stubborn. If I cam get my kid into the school without getting baptised, I will. Otherwise it's really no big deal. He can learn first hand what a crock of ****e it all is.

Mena wrote: »

Do you mind me asking you to clarify the 10Km's thing? You see, for me, that's not even a drop in the ocean. Hell, I used to commute 80Km's a day (one way) just for work. Is it a particularly congested route?

I'll let the Foreign National thing slide for now :mad: (I tek yer jawb!)

With regards to secondary school, We're hoping (but in no way confident) that options will open up. Leaving the country is on the cards though. It's not like we're really tied down.

This being said, by that time she will probably be able to make up her own mind, so we'd let her decide, but we have her name down in two schools already (in a different country).

Sure wing it and see - worst case scenario a baptism takes all of 10 or 15 minutes. If they said it was a requirement you could ask to be excused for a few minutes and run the kid down to the parish priest.