Unions should seek higher wages to compensate for higher taxes

AGP

Anyone else agree ? Our taxes are going up, and I think the trade unions should be now seeking higher wages to compensate for those tax rises. Not big extra wages, just enough to keep pace with the tax rises. So its the 2% levey tax rise, plus the other tax rises we don't see straight away (such as the 10 euro airport tax, and the insurance premium tax) so I think the unions should seek 2.5% as a matter of urgency.
Otherwise its the ordinary workers who are going to foot the bill for all these bailouts and NAMA stuff.
If people agree we should tell our local union reps to start seeking wage rises to match the tax rises, as otherwise its ordinary workers who will end up footing the bill for the governments mistakes.

hobochris

That has to be one of the silliest ideas I've herd in a while.

Where do you think the employers will get this money from?
No one is spending or hiring. Those with jobs are lucky to have them.

Its not just the governments mistakes either everyone had a part to play by essentially sticking their hands fingers in their ears and shouting "lalalala" when ever someone said their might be a problem with the economy or this boom wont last.

do you not think employers are being hit hard aswell? many have gone into liquidation because they cant afford to keep trading.



This thread has been done to death in other threads.

Spudmonkey

Not going to get many people agreeing with this! Stupid idea

Mena

Sounds like "Collective Lunacy" to me.

Padraig Mor

AGP wrote: »

Anyone else agree ? .

No.

gerry28

OP raising everyones wages will lead to price rises and we'll be back to square one.

everyone had a part to play

I don't agree with the op but to say everyone had their part to play is not true at all. Lots of young people were only children when the madness started and ended up paying through the nose for everything when they grew up and entered the real world.

Quite the opposite is likely to happen now as the IMF have given the green light for more public sector pay cuts.

solice

AGP wrote: »

Anyone else agree ? Our taxes are going up, and I think the trade unions should be now seeking higher wages to compensate for those tax rises. Not big extra wages, just enough to keep pace with the tax rises. So its the 2% levey tax rise, plus the other tax rises we don't see straight away (such as the 10 euro airport tax, and the insurance premium tax) so I think the unions should seek 2.5% as a matter of urgency.
Otherwise its the ordinary workers who are going to foot the bill for all these bailouts and NAMA stuff.
If people agree we should tell our local union reps to start seeking wage rises to match the tax rises, as otherwise its ordinary workers who will end up footing the bill for the governments mistakes.

If you didnt put such effort into that post I would have thought you were a troll but i fear its worse, a left wing looney!

The govt cant afford to give pay increases to the public sector and I dont think that there are many private sector companies that could afford to give a pay increase as well.

Sleipnir

AGP wrote: »

Otherwise its the ordinary workers who are going to foot the bill for all these bailouts and NAMA stuff.

Who would be footing the bill otherwise, in your mind?

AGP

It just seems to me like we are in a game of musical chairs......the music stops and its the ordinary worker who is left standing, while the banks, the property developers, employers, etc grab the seats.
Also - if wages went back up to where they were (just before the levy), we'd all have a bit more money to spend in the shops, restraunts, cinemas etc, and these businesses would start to need to hire new people and unemployment would go down.

solice

AGP wrote: »

Also - if wages went back up to where they were (just before the levy), we'd all have a bit more money to spend in the shops, restraunts, cinemas etc, and these businesses would start to need to hire new people and unemployment would go down.

But nobody can afford to pay more....so it will end up bankrupting us more. Also we are in a deflationary period so why should we be paid more as things now cost less.

In fact, wages, particulalry public sector wages, should be cut inline with deflation

Spudmonkey

These are all small businesses, what about multinationals that aren't going to see any of the money pumped into the local economy?

To be far it's not like the ordinary workers are all that innocent, many of them bought into the property market and are paying for it now.

eoinbn

OP: Did you tell your union reps to seek lower wages when taxes were falling?

LoLth

not the best thought out idea i've read on boards... fight for higher wages, in a recession... with approx 9% contraction in the economy this year and a predicted 11-13% next year.

govt revenue is raised from taxes, no matter what the wage level, it is the average worker that will be footing the bail outs. higher wages now will just increase the cost of living and move those on social welfare closer to the poverty line.

a lot of people have lost their jobs and a lot have taken pay cuts. I dont think we should be trying to make it harder for people to find work in ireland by making us less competitive to potential employers/investors while simultaenously cutting back the profits of businesses and increasing the danger of them having to fold or at the least lay off staff to keep on their now, more expensive, workforce.

ixoy

Absolutely daft idea.

One of the reasons many companies are pulling out is the high wage cost of operating in Ireland - do you think a 2.5% increase is going to change their mind?

The fact that we're all paying for mistakes, etc. is neither here nor there right now. The economic situation doesn't respond to concepts like ethics.

BTW, if wages go up so does the cost of everything again - that's how our inflation works. It will make things worse again. We might have less purchasing power now but that's how it's got to be until this mess is sorted out by the idiots in power.

dan_d

No.
The money is not there to give people. Every business in this country is strapped for cash. You just cannot give people what you don't have.
I completely agree that the policy of consistently raising taxes for the ordinary joe soap is godawful and will only work to a point. Same situation - people will only have so much to give and after that, they just wont' have any more.
They need to start looking long and hard at the overpaid public service - as in, the higher areas where people get paid stupid money for very little work. Reform from our Gov needs to start from within.Which is not happening.The whole entire structure of the public service and health service and various other bodies ( transport etc) needs to be seriously rearranged and streamlined. Unions shouting for non-existent money is not helpful and it just won't solve anything.
Mind you, I wouldn't hold my breath on the Gov either.

Mr. Incognito

do me a favour- grab a dictionary and look up inflation.

What a ridiculous idea.

eigrod

They should start with immediate 10% pay increases for all Public Service workers

(this post was written specifically with Jimmmy in mind )

jmayo

AGP wrote: »

Anyone else agree ? Our taxes are going up, and I think the trade unions should be now seeking higher wages to compensate for those tax rises. Not big extra wages, just enough to keep pace with the tax rises. So its the 2% levey tax rise, plus the other tax rises we don't see straight away (such as the 10 euro airport tax, and the insurance premium tax) so I think the unions should seek 2.5% as a matter of urgency.
Otherwise its the ordinary workers who are going to foot the bill for all these bailouts and NAMA stuff.
If people agree we should tell our local union reps to start seeking wage rises to match the tax rises, as otherwise its ordinary workers who will end up footing the bill for the governments mistakes.

I think with your grasp of economic matters you should apply for a job in Dept of Finance, even better you might make it to the ultimate body, IFSRA.
I bet you fit right in
BTW could you lend me a few quid, I believe I am a little short this decade ?

Nelson Muntz

AGP wrote: »

Anyone else agree ? Our taxes are going up, and I think the trade unions should be now seeking higher wages to compensate for those tax rises. Not big extra wages, just enough to keep pace with the tax rises. So its the 2% levey tax rise, plus the other tax rises we don't see straight away (such as the 10 euro airport tax, and the insurance premium tax) so I think the unions should seek 2.5% as a matter of urgency.
Otherwise its the ordinary workers who are going to foot the bill for all these bailouts and NAMA stuff.
If people agree we should tell our local union reps to start seeking wage rises to match the tax rises, as otherwise its ordinary workers who will end up footing the bill for the governments mistakes.

Joe Higgins, is that you?

AGP

So a pretty resounding "no" to that idea then. Ah well. I guess I am just surprised people - and the unions - don't feel more militant now. We're all going to have to scrimp and save and do without, as our incomes go down, while the wealthy bankers and property developers must be laughing their heads off as they receive their bailouts paid for by our rising taxes

mike65

Militant = unemployed.

turgon

AGP wrote: »

the wealthy bankers and property developers must be laughing their heads off as they receive their bailouts paid for by our rising taxes

You solution being to get the not-wealthy small business owner pay the income levies for everyone he employs.

asdasd

Also - if wages went back up to where they were (just before the levy),

Didnt this levy just affect the Public Sector.

Unlike the private sector where the employer has to pay the full wage ( with tax being deducted by the government from the employee) the government really only pays the net wage. The real cost of a government employee on 40K who pays 10K tax, is 30K to the government. It gets the 10K back.

So asking for a payraise along with the levy is a wash. They may as well have not introduced the levy. Which is probably what you really mean.

Vyse

So conversly, when tax rates were decreased, should unions have looked to their members to take a pay cut?

asdasd

So conversly, when tax rates were decreased, should unions have looked to their members to take a pay cut?

To be fair the deal was low rates of wage demands and reductions in taxes.

NotoriousFin

Economic suicide is a great idea!

tolosenc

Yay Zimbabwe!

JonathanAnon

AGP wrote: »

Anyone else agree ?

If you are in the public sector and your union successfully gets you a wage hike, it just increases the burden on the taxpayer.

If you are in the private sector and your union successfully gets you a wage hike, you will be increasing increase your costs when most other private businesses are reducing costs/having sales etc etc..

Terrible idea. However on the bright side, with this type of skewed thinking they may have a position for you in the dept. of finance.

nuac

AGP should realise that we are a very small economy depending on being able to export goods and services at competitive prices. If we fail we lose even more jobs.

All costs have to be kept down if this country is to successfully compete.

ParkRunner

Personally I would look at the amount of levies (direct and indirect) which result in lower disposable income for those working, rather than campaigning for increasing wages the way things are at the moment so as to improve our competitiveness.

If social welfare isn't cut in the next budget though I will be very disappointed as I just see too many people living more than comfortable lives with no ambition to go out and find a job!

irish_bob

EF wrote: »

Personally I would look at the amount of levies (direct and indirect) which result in lower disposable income for those working, rather than campaigning for increasing wages the way things are at the moment so as to improve our competitiveness.

Is social welfare isn't cut in the next budget though I will be very disappointed as I just see too many people living more than comfortable lives with no ambition to go out and find a job!

joe GAMBLES 5 DAYS A WEEK,s vote is as good to fianna fail as joe the plumber who gets up at 6 every morning and puts in over 60 hours a week, the ambitious have less resepct than the feckless in biffos ireland of 2009

slimjimmc

irish_bob wrote: »

joe GAMBLES 5 DAYS A WEEK,s vote is as good to fianna fail as joe the plumber who gets up at 6 every morning and puts in over 60 hours a week, the ambitious have less resepct than the feckless in biffos ireland of 2009

Huh?

nuac

I agree with Irish Bob's post. Far too much going out from taxpayer to people who think work is a dirty four letter word, and are laughing at those who work hard to sustain their families.

For instance it is time for a major CAB type investigation as to why groups of travellers have top of the range vehciles, current 08 or 09 models, and are yet getting dole or other social welfare payments.

PrincessLola

And here's another swell idea, lets print loads of money and give everyone a million euro so no-one will ever be poor again, that will work!

sovtek

EF wrote: »

If social welfare isn't cut in the next budget though I will be very disappointed as I just see too many people living more than comfortable lives with no ambition to go out and find a job!

I guess you live in an alternate universe where there are jobs no one has the ambition to go out and get.

sovtek

mike65 wrote: »

Militant = unemployed.

everyone=unemployed
banker!=unemployed

sovtek

nuac wrote: »

I agree with Irish Bob's post. Far too much going out from taxpayer to people who think work is a dirty four letter word, and are laughing at those who work hard to sustain their families.

For instance it is time for a major CAB type investigation as to why groups of travellers have top of the range vehciles, current 08 or 09 models, and are yet getting dole or other social welfare payments.

Yeah because the dole scroungers are the ones who wrecked the economy.

Spudmonkey

sovtek wrote: »

I guess you live in an alternate universe where there are jobs no one has the ambition to go out and get.

No but there have been reports of people who have turned down work because they have it better on the dole!

sovtek wrote: »

Yeah because the dole scroungers are the ones who wrecked the economy.

Out of touch with reality, although we all hate them, alas they did not wreck the economy

sovtek

Spudmonkey wrote: »

No but there have been reports of people who have turned down work because they have it better on the dole!

My god they should be shot!
Hasn't that always been the case though? There's always going to be people that scam the system. Do you cut someones head off when they have a cold?

Out of touch with reality, although we all hate them, alas they did not wreck the economy

I would more likely hate the people that did actually wreck the economy.

Sand

Do you cut someones head off when they have a cold?

Do you force someone out to work when theyre on their death bed?

You see, its kinda like someone is the taxpayer, their work is providing for the unemployed...and their on their deathbed because...well, the state is basically spending twice what we're getting in...

I would more likely hate the people that did actually wreck the economy.

The social partners? With an idealogy best expressed by the OP?

Spudmonkey

Sand wrote: »

The social partners? With an idealogy best expressed by the OP?

Although they did help public spending reach astronomical amounts, I don't know if they were entirely to blame for this mess either. They certainly aren't helping us get out of it though..

Sand

Theres no one entity to blame of course.

Social partners should not have demanded benchmarking/payrises.
Government should have said no.
People shouldnt have borrowed so much.
Banks shouldnt have lent so much.
Regulator should have done their job.
Voters should have voted in...well, I dont know...was there a party arguing for sensible fiscal controls as opposed to being bitter that they couldnt stick their snouts in the trough?

Boskowski

gerry28 wrote: »

Lots of young people were only children when the madness started and ended up paying through the nose for everything when they grew up and entered the real world.

They had a nice enough time with all those playstations and fkn ringtones and being carted to school in an SUV every day when they should have been using their feet instead and playing outdoors so that they wouldn't be 12 stone by the time they're 14. The little spoilt brats 'tiger cubs'...:D

ParkRunner

sovtek wrote: »

I guess you live in an alternate universe where there are jobs no one has the ambition to go out and get.

I see jobs advertised in shop windows everyday in Dublin city so there are jobs there to be had! They might not be great jobs but maybe these jobs are below the pyjama wearing brigade

Lockstep

EF wrote: »

I see jobs advertised in shop windows everyday in Dublin city so there are jobs there to be had! They might not be great jobs but maybe these jobs are below the pyjama wearing brigade

When I was out looking for work, there were indeed a lot of signs giving vacancies, however, nearly all of these wanted years of experience; because demand exceeded supply the employers could be extremely choost as to what they wanted.

ParkRunner

kickoutthejams wrote: »

When I was out looking for work, there were indeed a lot of signs giving vacancies, however, nearly all of these wanted years of experience; because demand exceeded supply the employers could be extremely choost as to what they wanted.

And did you get a job in the end?

Hookey

sovtek wrote: »

My god they should be shot!
Hasn't that always been the case though? There's always going to be people that scam the system. Do you cut someones head off when they have a cold?

True, but the more attractive you make social welfare, the greater the temptation to scam it. Ireland doesn't have the best Social Welfare payment rate in Europe (the Germans and Scandinavians both pay out more), but relative to our GDP we spend the most and we simply can't afford it. If you go on the dole here, your retained earnings are about 55% of the average wage, in the UK its 40% and their minimum wage is lower, but they still have a perceived problem with "dole scroungers". Imagine how much worse it is for us? We need to get to the kind of level of social welfare payment that gives a greater incentive to take that "low paid" job.

sovtek

Hookey wrote: »

True, but the more attractive you make social welfare, the greater the temptation to scam it. Ireland doesn't have the best Social Welfare payment rate in Europe (the Germans and Scandinavians both pay out more), but relative to our GDP we spend the most and we simply can't afford it. If you go on the dole here, your retained earnings are about 55% of the average wage, in the UK its 40% and their minimum wage is lower, but they still have a perceived problem with "dole scroungers". Imagine how much worse it is for us? We need to get to the kind of level of social welfare payment that gives a greater incentive to take that "low paid" job.

One day that person that is forced into a ****ty job may be you.

Sand

One day that person that is forced into a ****ty job may be you.

Taking a ****ty low paid job is better for a persons self respect than sitting on the dole.

A welfare state so generous that it becomes an alternative to taking on a job ( any job) wipes out communities and their self respect. Its no surprise that they then become practically slums.