Time for a pre-emptive strike against North Korea?

Judgement Day

I try to block a lot of what goes on in the World from my mind but an issue that refuses to go away is North Korea. The latest round of nuclear sabre rattling coming from there may be just that but can the rest of the World take that chance? I have two young children and I fear for the World they are going to grow up in if rogue states like North Korea are allowed to go on their merry way. What happens if they manage to build up a substantial number of nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them? What happens if they supply same to various other corrupt regimes such as Burma, Libya or, God help us, Al Qaeda?

Is war ineveitable and, if so, should the USA and its allies launch a preemptive strike at a time of their choosing? The UN and the Security Council cannot be relied upon, as sanctions are clearly a waste of time and military action will not be given the green light by either Russia or China. I would be interested in what others think. I am not a war monger but I think that North Korea needs to be stopped dead in its tracks before something really serious happens. Taking out the regime would be dangerous but less so than letting things spiral out of control as they presently are.

Craigsy

There is absolutly never any reason for the use of nuclear weapons.

I think you might also underestimate the defensive capabilities of the U.S.

Anyway i can see this thread getting locked

Judgement Day

Why should the thread be locked? I thought the boards were for discussing issues on. There's nothing offensive in what I have said, just some questions that I would like peoples opinions on.

Craigsy

because you mention nuking the NK's, generally not a popular topic, i would myself like to see it stay open and see peoples opinions though

dvpower

Judgement Day wrote: »

There's nothing offensive in what I have said

There's no option in your poll NOT to attack NK.

Judgement Day

dvpower wrote: »

There's no option in your poll NOT to attack NK.

Good point. Being a technophobe I am not sure how to alter poll to add this option which, of course, I should have included. Too late in the evening, too hot and my brain not engaged - sorry.

Any Mod out there who could help me on this? I would like Poll to continue with do nothing as the fourth option.

Liber8or

Surgical strike implies accuracy, but the problem there lies in the fact that nobody in the world knows where the Nuclear Weapons or Reactors are. So, that rules out that option.

The use of nuclear weapons, firstly, would not appeal to the Russians or Chinese who are on North Korea's borders. Elements such as fallout and radiation depending on wind directions could be hazardous to their own population and would have long lasting repercussions. Then, ofcourse, the North Korean population themselves would suffer from years of radiation in the selected bomb sites.

A general invasion would be very difficult considering the terrain and location of the country itself is arduous. Also, would the "Invading Coalition" be allowed to invade via Russia, South Korea, China? That would run the risk of North Korean retaliation on those assisting nations.

We must also consider the South Koreans in this situation as well. Approximately one million soldiers lie on the border between the North and South. If any invading force threatened North Korea, it would be a sure bet they would invade the South immediately to deter any invasion force coming through their and to secure the peninsula as a unified fortress.

I reckon diplomacy is the only method until a verifiable threat emerges. At the moment North Korea can fire rockets, and they can detonate nuclear bombs, but I do not believe they have been able to fuse the two together yet. Future wars will be fought using economics and that will cripple North Korea. Kim Jong Il is on his last legs and these "apparent" threats are probably him getting his last kicks out of his dictatorship before one of his sons take over.

The U.N is monitoring every launch North Korea send off and as soon as a single one of them takes the life of a citizen from another nation, you can be bet the American, Chinese and Russian Battleships/Aircraft carriers in the Pacific will be retaliating with strikes on those launchpads within minutes. Nevermind the fact, that they have missile intercepting technology, albeit if they work or not has yet to be resolved.

Manic Moran

I still wonder if a strike can be done 'on the quiet', just to drive a point. It need not be advertised by the US (or whoever), and if the North Koreans think that it's safer for them not to admit their vulnerability and non-invincibility, they may just keep it quiet as well.

On a more realistic level, I think this time the Japanese or Americans should shoot down the next missile. I'm kindof curious why they've not done it already, would be a good training event.

NTM

Victor McDade

Jesus lads, there are millions of completely innocent people living there, do they deserve to be nuked, just because their leader is a crazy dictator? There will never ever be a justified reason to use a nuclear weapon

Ping Chow Chi

Manic Moran wrote: »

I still wonder if a strike can be done 'on the quiet', just to drive a point. It need not be advertised by the US (or whoever), and if the North Koreans think that it's safer for them not to admit their vulnerability and non-invincibility, they may just keep it quiet as well.

On a more realistic level, I think this time the Japanese or Americans should shoot down the next missile. I'm kindof curious why they've not done it already, would be a good training event.

NTM

I wonderd this as well, all I could think is that maybe they tried and was unsuccessful... and kept it quiet as its safer for them not to admit their missle intercept system isnt that great yet?

OS119

savemejebas wrote: »

Jesus lads, there are millions of completely innocent people living there, do they deserve to be nuked, just because their leader is a crazy dictator? There will never ever be a justified reason to use a nuclear weapon

shows what you know about nuclear weapons.

the nuclear fabrication sites are known - hint: if the tv news can put pictures on them on the telly, and the UN can do inspections of them, its quite likely that the USAF can find them...

personally i'm with MM, NK is such a closed country that the USN and JSDF could shoot down the missile launches and even attack the CBRN and Missile fabrication sites with conventional weapons and its quitely likely that NK wouldn't tell its population - and in NK, if the government doesn't tell you you don't know.

and as for nukes, the age of the 'citybuster' is long gone, modern nukes are designed to be used within a conventional operations plan - even Trident can dial its yeild back to 0.9kt (Hiroshima was about 17kt), at that kind of yeild - particularly given that it would be deployed within a 'penetrator' system so the detionation would occur underground - its unlikely that that anyone more that 2km away would be effected by the blast.

BigDuffman

As there's no option on poll I'm just going to say..Do Nothing, at most increased political lobbying.

67AQUALUNG

"I think that North Korea needs to be stopped dead in its tracks before something really serious happens."


What makes you think that the U.S.A isnt the one that needs to be stopped?

dvpower

OS119 wrote: »

and as for nukes, the age of the 'citybuster' is long gone, modern nukes are designed to be used within a conventional operations plan - even Trident can dial its yeild back to 0.9kt (Hiroshima was about 17kt), at that kind of yeild - particularly given that it would be deployed within a 'penetrator' system so the detionation would occur underground - its unlikely that that anyone more that 2km away would be effected by the blast.

You say this like you read it in a book.

Craigsy

The days of launching a weapon on the qt are gone. You launch something you can be damn sure people know about it *cough russia, china cough*

I reckon the yanks will take down anything that comes near there space, they can finally try out that directed energy missile defence system

D-Boy

Craigsy wrote: »

The days of launching a weapon on the qt are gone. You launch something you can be damn sure people know about it *cough russia, china cough*

I reckon the yanks will take down anything that comes near there space, they can finally try out that directed energy missile defence system

As ive said before if the North want to destroy and destabilise the South they should just dissolve the state!!
Any armed attack would be met with utter annihilation by the US and SK.
America has over 36000 Special Forces Unit in Sk alone.
Dissolution of the North with all its inhabitants flooding to the South would do far more damage than a bomb.
The North is a typical Dictatoral case,a Military of largely antiquated equipment adept at parades.

Victor McDade

OS119 wrote: »

the nuclear fabrication sites are known - hint: if the tv news can put pictures on them on the telly, and the UN can do inspections of them, its quite likely that the USAF can find them...

I don't doubt this.

OS119 wrote: »

and as for nukes, the age of the 'citybuster' is long gone, modern nukes are designed to be used within a conventional operations plan - even Trident can dial its yeild back to 0.9kt (Hiroshima was about 17kt), at that kind of yeild - particularly given that it would be deployed within a 'penetrator' system so the detionation would occur underground - its unlikely that that anyone more that 2km away would be effected by the blast.

Ah that's grand then, nuke away, what could go wrong?!? :rolleyes:

BlackWizard

I dunno if nuking N.Korea will make them suddenly stop being so aggressive. It might do the opposite and rally their entire country against the west and trying to retaliate.

I vote for a patient approached preceded by a full-scale invasion and take over. Massive explosions and gun fights and lots of great Hollywood movies

BigDuffman

D-Boy wrote: »

Any armed attack would be met with utter annihilation by the US and SK.
America has over 36000 Special Forces Unit in Sk alone.
equipment adept at parades.

36000 SF units in SK? You sure on those figures?

Although relatively valid point on SK being overwhelmed by NK pop. in the event of any major attack / deposition of NK state.

Craigsy

BlackWizard wrote: »

I vote for a patient approached preceded by a full-scale invasion and take over. Massive explosions and gun fights and lots of great Hollywood movies

Eh Behind Enemy Lines 2 anyone????

helimachoptor

I think if Japan was to shoot down the missile it would be very interesting .I think NK would be more willing to launch some type of attack on Japan rather than the US interests.

Either way I think this is just NK sabre rattling.

iceage

To make that Poll fair, should it not also include the option " NO! are you f*ckin serious? "

OS119

dvpower wrote: »

You say this like you read it in a book.

i have read it in a book my love - but its not the kind of book you'll find on the shelf of you local library...

the information is available in open source - spend 30 minutes googling 'nuclear weapon yeilds', and 'blast effects radius'.

Manic Moran

Craigsy wrote: »

I reckon the yanks will take down anything that comes near there space, they can finally try out that directed energy missile defence system

More likely the SM2s ABMs launched from their destroyers. The US has equipped a few ships with them, and the Japanese have a couple as well.

NTM

Local-womanizer

Manic Moran wrote: »

More likely the SM2s ABMs launched from their destroyers. The US has equipped a few ships with them, and the Japanese have a couple as well.

NTM

Havent the US launched them ships this week too?

The sooner that little idiot in charge of NK dies the better tbf.Nothing but a lunatic.

Mahatma coat

So whats the difference between a Preemptive Strike and an act of War?

Should NK Launch a 'Pre emptive Strike' against its sabre rattling enemies in the west?

Oh yeah I get it, if 'OUR' side or our 'ALLIES' launch a sneaky raid cross a soverign border blow some stuff up and kill a few people its a Preemptive strike.

if 'they' do it its naked agression and an act of war.

isnt it about time a lot of ye copped on and smelled what ye are shoveling.

OS119

Mahatma coat wrote: »

So whats the difference between a Preemptive Strike and an act of War?

Should NK Launch a 'Pre emptive Strike' against its sabre rattling enemies in the west?

Oh yeah I get it, if 'OUR' side or our 'ALLIES' launch a sneaky raid cross a soverign border blow some stuff up and kill a few people its a Preemptive strike.

if 'they' do it its naked agression and an act of war.

isnt it about time a lot of ye copped on and smelled what ye are shoveling.

your nose is blocked.

naked aggression is launching, or threatening to launch, an attack on someone who, even if they don't like you, has no intention of launching a similarly unprovoked attack on you. if a drunk guy comes up to you in street while you're shopping with your family and punches you that's 'naked aggression', if, seeing the danger and hearing the threats, you punch him first, thats a 'pre-emptive strike', and its very unlikely that a court would dissaprove.

a pre-emptive strike is just a turn of phrase, it carries no moral weight - unlike the term 'naked agression' - it purely describes hitting someone before they hit you, though it does rest on you genuinely believing that the other guy is about to hit you.

Niether Japan, the US nor South Korea have displayed any indication of 'naked aggression' against NK, their actions and words so far are purely provoked by the actions and words of NK - if NK wasn't threatening to fire a nuclear capable missile towards them, they'd find it rather difficult to threaten to shoot it down...

Poccington

D-Boy wrote: »

As ive said before if the North want to destroy and destabilise the South they should just dissolve the state!!
Any armed attack would be met with utter annihilation by the US and SK.
America has over 36000 Special Forces Unit in Sk alone.
Dissolution of the North with all its inhabitants flooding to the South would do far more damage than a bomb.
The North is a typical Dictatoral case,a Military of largely antiquated equipment adept at parades.

36,000 SOF Units in South Korea? I'd love to see a source for this.

Craigsy

D-Boy wrote: »

K.
America has over 36000 Special Forces Unit in Sk alone.

Knock some zero's off that mate

biko

Do you think a preemptive attack on North Korea would be justified?
A surgical airstrike against nuclear installations in North Korea.
A fullscale invasion and regime change.
A preemptive strike including the use of nuclear weapons.
B Political negotiations

I choose plan B

Poccington

Poll has been edited, with an extra option put in.

BrianD

I would go with regime change but I don't think that this could be implemented militarily.

In the 21st century, it's just odd that a nation, for no good reason, would not only seek to isolate itself in the world but to also take an aggressive stance against the rest of the planet. The only nations that do this are driven by dictator type leaders for self serving reasons. Find somebody else to pin the problems on and make them public enemy number one.

If the masses of north korean only knew that the southern half of the penisula is well nourished, economically healthy, highly advanced then they might be more inclined to push their regime out. Unfortunately, if the push comes internally or externally there will be a lot of bloodshed.

Mahatma coat

OS119 wrote: »

your nose is blocked.

naked aggression is launching, or threatening to launch, an attack on someone who, even if they don't like you, has no intention of launching a similarly unprovoked attack on you. if a drunk guy comes up to you in street while you're shopping with your family and punches you that's 'naked aggression', if, seeing the danger and hearing the threats, you punch him first, thats a 'pre-emptive strike', and its very unlikely that a court would dissaprove.

OK what if that Drunk guy recognised you as someone that his family were in an ongoing fued with, because lets say, your family attacked his family because you didnt like the way they maintained their house 40 years ago, his family had beaten you off their lawn to the footpath ands were in a stalemate at this point in time, its not like the North Koreans are wanderin around the bar waitin for people to look at them all funny, they feel a legitimate greivance against the USA and the UN

a pre-emptive strike is just a turn of phrase, it carries no moral weight - unlike the term 'naked agression' - it purely describes hitting someone before they hit you, though it does rest on you genuinely believing that the other guy is about to hit you.

We all know where the Fictional defence of ''Preemptive strikes'' comes from, and it is bollox, anyone remember

Ecky Thump : the best form of defence is attack and the most important factor in any attack is the element of surprise.....

Niether Japan, the US nor South Korea have displayed any indication of 'naked aggression' against NK, their actions and words so far are purely provoked by the actions and words of NK - if NK wasn't threatening to fire a nuclear capable missile towards them, they'd find it rather difficult to threaten to shoot it down...

Blockades and Economic sanctions and open hostilities like demanding to inspect the cargo of any ship leavin the country, yeah theres no provocation there

diverdriver

they feel a legitimate greivance against the USA and the UN

Sorry, what? Legitimate grievance? What are you on about? The only thing keeping the people of that country from starving under the current insane regime is the aid being pumped in by it's so called enemies.

There is no grievance. North Korea were the aggressor and the only reason that maniac Kim Jong-il nad his henchman maintain the that aggressive stance is keep themselves in power. All oppressive regimes maintain a paranoid stance against often imaginary external enemies to stifle internal revolt. Iran being another case in point. They're currently maintaining a total fantasy that the British are trying overthrow their regime. You can be quite sure that many North Koreans believe their plight is the fault of Americans and the west in general, because that's what they've been told.

Get your facts right.

Overheal

Judgement Day wrote: »

I try to block a lot of what goes on in the World from my mind but an issue that refuses to go away is North Korea. The latest round of nuclear sabre rattling coming from there may be just that but can the rest of the World take that chance? I have two young children and I fear for the World they are going to grow up in if rogue states like North Korea are allowed to go on their merry way. What happens if they manage to build up a substantial number of nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them? What happens if they supply same to various other corrupt regimes such as Burma, Libya or, God help us, Al Qaeda?

Is war ineveitable and, if so, should the USA and its allies launch a preemptive strike at a time of their choosing? The UN and the Security Council cannot be relied upon, as sanctions are clearly a waste of time and military action will not be given the green light by either Russia or China. I would be interested in what others think. I am not a war monger but I think that North Korea needs to be stopped dead in its tracks before something really serious happens. Taking out the regime would be dangerous but less so than letting things spiral out of control as they presently are.

I find it amusing that you fear for your life yet want someone else to fix your problem.

Judgement Day

Overheal wrote: »

I find it amusing that you fear for your life yet want someone else to fix your problem.

I'm glad you're amused but I don't fear for my life - I turned 50 this year so I've had a good innings but I do worry about the World my kids (5 and 7) are facing into - as you would have noticed if you had bothered to read my post! I don't see why you think I want someone else to fix my problem - I said the USA and their allies paramount among which would be the UK. I am a British citizen and my family have served in the British forces for generations so I don't expect anyone else to fight my battles! By circumstance and good fortune I did not end up in the services but this does not invalidate my concern that something be done about North Korea. I live in Ireland but I hardly expect the neutral, ill equipped Irish defence forces to join in any preemptive strike against North Korea but, as usual, Shannon airport would probably be used by US forces.

Do you have anything constructive to say or are you happy just making smart remarks?

Overheal

Im simply pointing out the language of your post is blatant of having others do things for you. "The USA and its Allies" not "Us and Our Allies" or "Our Allies and We". Its also interesting that you spearhead "The USA and its allies", not "The UK and its allies", despite your nationality. Which again, just leads back to my beef. You want something done, and you implicitly want the USA to bear the credit, for good or bad. But thats a political issue.

As for the subject at hand: no, of course not. We did a good discussion on this not long ago, here. Its not as viable an option as the public seems to think it is. And furthermore as has been pointed out here, Allied ABM defense systems are more than capable of intercepting any Korean missile. Humanitarian issues be damned, unfortunately. How the world is handling Iran is at the moment, the current Precedent. I believe that unless DPRK commits an act of aggression, in particular invading over the armistice line, we won't see anything but a watchful eye on our end.

me_right_one

Is it just me, or does anybody else think that NK is just a puppet for china? If America, the UN, or any other country did invade NK just to grab it by the balls and make it cop on, that would be all the excuse china would need to launch an attack on "The West", citing aggression and spying, and that "The West" was just going to use NK as a platform to invade them. And then Russia would join in, and we'd have WW3. And it would be nuclear. Did everybody just forget that china are the bad guys?

Having said all that, I think its probably going to happen someday. Maybe we should all just get it over with.

Overheal

me_right_one wrote: »

Did everybody just forget that china are the bad guys?

WHAT. I didnt hear that last part over the noise from all my Fireworks


/irony++

me_right_one

Overheal wrote: »

WHAT. I didnt hear that last part over the noise from all my Fireworks

So the chinese are good at making fireworks and cheap toys? Fair play to them! Its still a communist dictatorship, and they're still psychos. Look at Tibet, and Georgia with the Russians for that matter. I find it astonishing that both of these countries are allowed to be in the UN.

I'd love if all the responsible countries of the world got together to cleanse the planet of the untrustworthy, insane, psychotic, self-oppressive scummy countries that put everybody elses lives at risk. Then we could have a level, neutral world where we could all live without fear. (Does anyone remember that show "The girl from tomorrow"? Thats what the world should be like). They should do it now, while the economies of the sane countries of the world are still able for it, and before weapons technology goes any further.

Ah, but some would say, to do that would make all the responsible countries just as bad as the ones whose asses they would be kicking - Under normal circumstances I would agree. But these are not normal circumstances. We have an evil misguided country, being backed by an evil misguided continent, test firing nukes ffs. This is not the time to be all tree hugging and naive.

Overheal

me_right_one wrote: »

So the chinese are good at making fireworks and cheap toys?

Pfft. No. Black Cat brand. Made in America, yo. But a Chinese Invention

I'd love if all the responsible countries of the world got together to cleanse the planet of the untrustworthy, insane, psychotic, self-oppressive scummy countries that put everybody elses lives at risk. Then we could have a level, neutral world where we could all live without fear. (Does anyone remember that show "The girl from tomorrow"? Thats what the world should be like). They should do it now, while the economies of the sane countries of the world are still able for it, and before weapons technology goes any further.

Shall I begin to count the number of things inherently wrong with that, or were you just musing? You can't commit genocide without instilling fear. Sure we could ethnically cleanse China off the map (for arguments sake) but where would it end? Would we just go off and kill all the Africans to save the Sahara? Purge the Phillipines for their slave/sex trade? Pretty soon youre wiping California and Holland off the map for being "too liberal".

Neutral me arse.

Ah, but some would say, to do that would make all the responsible countries just as bad as the ones whose asses they would be kicking [Yup- OverH] - Under normal circumstances I would agree. But these are not normal circumstances. We have an evil misguided country, being backed by an evil misguided continent, test firing nukes ffs. This is not the time to be all tree hugging and naive.

So what are we gonna do? Nuke the site from Orbit? Kill innocents? Irradiate 1/4 of the planet's air supply?

Some things are just best left as thought experiments, clearly :pac: not faulting you, its crossed my mind before

me_right_one

I see what you're saying Overheal, but California and Holland are'nt brandishing nukes and threatening to use them! The last time someone provoked so hard was in germany in the 1930's, and look what happened there! And that was just speeches and marches! You cant just make idle threats to the world and get away with it. Those NK's need to be thought a hard lesson. And whoever steps up to their defence should be taken down too.

marco murphy

The gung-ho attitude in this thread is shocking, to say the least, with what appears to be little thought to the effect of war on both the North and South (which will be badly effected) should the US try anything. Negotiate is key, but I question whether that is what the big bully USA actually wants.

me_right_one

Perestroika wrote: »

The gung-ho attitude in this thread is shocking, to say the least, with what appears to be little thought to the effect of war on both the North and South (which will be badly effected) should the US try anything. Negotiate is key, but I question whether that is what the big bully USA actually wants.

The big bully USA? Hang on a minute, who's threatening who? Do you not see that the nutjob running NK is waaaay beyond negotiating with? If a war did break out, everybody would be affected. But why wait till NK nukes somewhere, lets say Navan, before you do anything about it?

marco murphy

me_right_one wrote: »

The big bully USA? Hang on a minute, who's threatening who? Do you not see that the nutjob running NK is waaaay beyond negotiating with? If a war did break out, everybody would be affected. But why wait till NK nukes somewhere, lets say Navan, before you do anything about it?

Oh how dramatic. Who is threatning who? Who invaded a country on fabricated evidence? Who wiped out two cities in WWII? Who is, step by step, creating the conditions for a war with Iran? The big bully USA. I have yet to see evidence to suggest that the leader of North Korea is a nutjob, assuming you are referring to him. I was going to say "you know as well as I do", but thats an non-runner in this response. North Korea quite obviously has weapons on the agenda for defensive purposes. What possible political gain could be made from using a nuclear weapon on another country? Where is the evidence that they even have a weaponised device?

North Koreas demands are pretty simple and that is to be recognised, not demonised by the USA, a country that will not be detered unless nuclear weapons are in the hands of the opposition.

I don't conform to media hype and misrepresentation, but obviously others have issues. This is especially apparent in your listing of Navan as a potential target of North Korea. And as for the "why wait", what are you going to do about this serious threat you have pointed out?
I for one would be more interested in focusing on the very real threat posed by the US in de-stabilising the Middle East for self gain.

me_right_one

Perestroika wrote: »

Oh how dramatic. Who is threatning who? Who invaded a country on fabricated evidence? Who wiped out two cities in WWII? Who is, step by step, creating the conditions for a war with Iran?

True, America has done these things, all of which pale in comparason to launching nukes at another country

Perestroika wrote: »

I have yet to see evidence to suggest that the leader of North Korea is a nutjob, assuming you are referring to him.

Are you serious?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr_1UNWH-8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFvO2BKhWqg&feature=fvw
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/feb/01/northkorea

This is what this maniac, communist dictator does. I'll let you research the rest yourself.

Perestroika wrote: »

North Korea quite obviously has weapons on the agenda for defensive purposes. What possible political gain could be made from using a nuclear weapon on another country?

Exactly!?! None whatsoever, unless you are a sadistic, psychopatic, communist dictator who just loves killing - like Kim Jong Il

But in reality, he's just a puppet for China. They love him.

Perestroika wrote: »

Where is the evidence that they even have a weaponised device?

Have you been living on another planet? They have been test firing rockets and enriching uranium all year, only for jacko's death, its the only thing thats been on the news!

Perestroika wrote: »

North Koreas demands are pretty simple and that is to be recognised, not demonised by the USA, a country that will not be detered unless nuclear weapons are in the hands of the opposition.

North Korea IS recognised as a country the world over. The only one demonising NK is Kim Jong Il

Perestroika wrote: »

I don't conform to media hype and misrepresentation, but obviously others have issues. This is especially apparent in your listing of Navan as a potential target of North Korea.

I picked Navan because you list it as your location, just to give you a sense of how it might feel to be threatened by nuclear weapons. No media source has ever said Navan was actually under threat, and if you read my post correctly, neither did I.

Perestroika wrote: »

And as for the "why wait", what are you going to do about this serious threat you have pointed out?

Read my previous posts. IMO, the very serious threat of nuclear war should be stopped before its started by the sane countries of the world.

Overheal

me_right_one wrote: »

I see what you're saying Overheal, but California and Holland are'nt brandishing nukes and threatening to use them!

No they aren't. But hold this thought while I direct you to my next point:

The last time someone provoked so hard was in germany in the 1930's, and look what happened there! And that was just speeches and marches! You cant just make idle threats to the world and get away with it. Those NK's need to be thought a hard lesson. And whoever steps up to their defence should be taken down too.

Im pretty sure (right?), Germany was allowed to run wild up to, and including, the 1939 invasion of Poland. So I don't follow. Which is my next point. In the 30s, 40s, what constituted international response was when a country goes on a rampage across europe. Now, in the approaching 2010s, you're saying we need to invade the feckers for sabre-rattling.

So I mean. Do the math. By your logic, we will be invading Holland in 2064.

:cool:

me_right_one wrote: »

The big bully USA? Hang on a minute, who's threatening who? Do you not see that the nutjob running NK is waaaay beyond negotiating with?

I wouldn't say that. Yes, if you read his wiki page, he is, supposedly, a nut. But beyond negotiating with? Im not sure about that. In fact these nukes seem to me nothing more than leverage. Bargaining chips. Either for UN aid or Trade, or simply more recognition. Nuclear Powers get regarded seriously. Because, yes, they do have the firepower to wipe out a small country (in NKs case, that small country would be Tuvalu)

America has done these things, all of which pale in comparason to launching nukes at another country

Something which to date, only the US has ever done.

*cough*

me_right_one

Fair enough Overheal, maybe I wasnt clear. This is what I meant.

In the 1930's, long before WW2 started, Hitler was putting out propoganda and making threats against the Jews. He didnt actually do anything, just stir sh1t. He spewed out rhetoric about the fatherland and how it was every german citizens duty to protect it, and he organised marches and rallies to hype up hatred and hsyteria. The rest of the world thought;
"Ah well, another over-zealous political leader. He's never going to carry out any of the threats he's making, he'll be gone out of power in a few years anyway. This is the 20th century afterall, and the war-to-end-all-wars (WW1) isn't long over. Nothing will happen".

How wrong the world was. When Hitler finally did carry out his threats, innocent blood had to be spilled before the world took notice, and even at that the world was too slow to react. Because he was given a good start, he built up momentum, and it wasnt until the might of America came to the aid of the good guys that Hitler began to be beaten back.


This time, Kim Jong Il is doing the exact same thing, only with nuclear capabilities. In the 1930's, all Hitler had was 1930's style conventional weapons and a helluvalot of popularity from his supporters. Back then, there was no "meeting of minds" like we have now, there was no UN for the good, democratic countries to get together and talk about what to do. I bet if there was, they definately would have done something about Hitler BEFORE he kicked off WW2! Just ask any Polish person whether or not the world should have intervened sooner!

The world knows how brutal and real Kim Jong Il is, take a look at the links in my last post to see for yourself. He already has a track record of being an insane dictator. At least Hitler had to come up through the ranks of politics to be the dictator of Germany!


Has the world not learned any lessons from history? Here's a summary:

• When dictators are in control, its bad.
• The more mental they are, the worse it tends to be for the human race.
• When people make threats, they tend not to be pussy-footing around.
• The later you leave it to tackle a problem, the bigger the mess.
• Nuclear = Uh-oh

Using nukes as bargaining chips? I think not. Here's an idea Kim should look into if he seriously wants something to bargain with - what about giving up being an evil dictator and returning to good-ole democracy, in exchange for aid? Wouldnt that be much safer and easier for everybody!

So no, by my logic, Holland is safe:pac:

marco murphy

me_right_one wrote: »

True, America has done these things, all of which pale in comparason to launching nukes at another country

Yeah, something I'm sure they can comment on themselves, seeing as they have done it and no one else.

Are you serious?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr_1UNWH-8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFvO2BKhWqg&feature=fvw
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/feb/01/northkorea

This is what this maniac, communist dictator does. I'll let you research the rest yourself.

Rubbish. You're showing me a newspaper article and two youtube videos. I don't believe in any of that ****e. I know people who have been to North Korea and have met a youth group from there. I'd take their word for it, not some internet post from someone who is clearly intent on blackening Kim's name.

Exactly!?! None whatsoever, unless you are a sadistic, psychopatic, communist dictator who just loves killing - like Kim Jong Il
But in reality, he's just a puppet for China. They love him.

You sound like a teenage girl who has been rejected to be honest, and I won't even write a response to ''who just loves killing". I will wait until you produce evidence other than two ****e youtube videos. I have plenty of evidence to suggest that America is involved and has been involved in agenda of killing innocent people on a daily basis. Palestine, Iraq, Colombia.

Have you been living on another planet? They have been test firing rockets and enriching uranium all year, only for jacko's death, its the only thing thats been on the news!

I don't know what news channel you've been watching, or are you one of those people that listens to the news you want to hear.

North Korea IS recognised as a country the world over. The only one demonising NK is Kim Jong Il

Oh ffs. The US and the media have been demonising North Korea and Iran, and at one stage Iraq for a very long time now. Just like they did in relation to Vietnam, showing them to be somehow below us and mad. Again, I'm not one who blindly takes the word of media with an American agenda. That is the only media outlet that we are exposed to and more fool you for researching no further than that.

I picked Navan because you list it as your location, just to give you a sense of how it might feel to be threatened by nuclear weapons. No media source has ever said Navan was actually under threat, and if you read my post correctly, neither did I.

I asked you a question. How would North Korea go about using a nuclear weapon on Navan, for example? Same goes for the USA.

Read my previous posts. IMO, the very serious threat of nuclear war should be stopped before its started by the sane countries of the world.

Fantastic use of scaremongering there. I like it. Sane countries of the world being everywhere but North Korea I take it.

me_right_one wrote: »

How wrong the world was. When Hitler finally did carry out his threats, innocent blood had to be spilled before the world took notice, and even at that the world was too slow to react. Because he was given a good start, he built up momentum, and it wasnt until the might of America came to the aid of the good guys that Hitler began to be beaten back.

The same might of America that oppresses the world to this day. If you didn't blindly swallow everything the media throws you, you would easily notice how its the US that is using rhetoric and threats for a buildup to war, as I said, just like Vietnam, Iraq, and now Iran and North Korea. The same America who armed India and Pakistan for god sake.

The world knows how brutal and real Kim Jong Il is, take a look at the links in my last post to see for yourself. He already has a track record of being an insane dictator. At least Hitler had to come up through the ranks of politics to be the dictator of Germany!

Do you work for the US propaganda agency? The world knows **** ALL and you know **** all about Kim Il-Jong and you know it.

Has the world not learned any lessons from history? Here's a summary:

• When dictators are in control, its bad.
• The more mental they are, the worse it tends to be for the human race.
• When people make threats, they tend not to be pussy-footing around.
• The later you leave it to tackle a problem, the bigger the mess.
• Nuclear = Uh-oh

Using nukes as bargaining chips? I think not. Here's an idea Kim should look into if he seriously wants something to bargain with - what about giving up being an evil dictator and returning to good-ole democracy, in exchange for aid? Wouldnt that be much safer and easier for everybody!

So no, by my logic, Holland is safe:pac:

Kim Il-Jong is'nt a dictator.

me_right_one

I will quote ONE part of your last post:

Perestroika wrote: »

Kim Il-Jong is'nt a dictator.

Yeah, good lad:rolleyes:

marco murphy

me_right_one wrote: »

I will quote ONE part of your last post:



Yeah, good lad:rolleyes:

Wow I was expecting a response that covers all of my post, seems you're not up to it. And yes, Kim is not a dictator, well done for the u-turn, I assume you have verified what a dictator is