Meath car dealer prosecuted after altered odometer

Davy

Meath car dealer prosecuted

23 June 2009

Feltrim Motors Ltd, Ashbourne, Co Meath, has been convicted at Dunshaughlin District Court for offering a 2003 VW Passat (UK import) for sale with an altered odometer reading.

The company was fined €500, and costs totalling €600 were awarded.

The decision to prosecute was made following an investigation by the National Consumer Agency.

When the Agency visited Feltrim Motors on 23 October 2008, it found that the dealer was offering a car for sale with 88,674 miles on the clock. The NCA procured evidence in the UK, which showed that when the car was serviced on 20 December 2005, the mileage reading was 102,894.

Evidence was produced in court that Feltrim Motors sold the car to three separate buyers between April 2006 and July 2007.

Each of the three owners returned the car when they became aware that they had not been given the correct background history of the car.

The NCA had evidence that the car was sold with 36,500 miles on the clock in April 2006. The buyer returned the car and obtained a full refund when he learned that the car had clocked up in excess of 100,000 miles in the UK by December 2005.

The NCA also produced evidence that a second owner, who purchased the car in August 2006 with a mileage reading of 57,000, returned the car and was also compensated when he discovered that he had been misled in relation to the mileage history.

The car was sold for a third time in July 2007 with a mileage reading of 73,000 and was returned to the dealer in May 2008 for another model, when the purchaser learned of the car's prior history.

Is this not way to lenient? If should be more than €500 to deter people from doing this.

squibs

Should be hammered for that alright. Then again, being exposed as a fraud will hurt him a lot more.

The old fella traded his car in years ago, and the dealer he sold it to clocked it before selling it on. The dealer was found out and ended up giving the car to the buyer for free rather than let it go to court.

dudara

Moved to Motors

dudara

JHMEG

Some judges seem to be still dealing in pounds, shillings and pence.

mickdw

Christ that the worst case ever, kept selling the thing after being caught out twice.

stratos

Unbelievable !!!

Delta Kilo

That happened a dealer near me a few months ago and he was fined a few grand if I remember correctly. He was brought to court over it. €500 is nothing!

Here it is:

Today, 18 June 2008 at Ballinasloe District Court, Mr Kevin McGann trading as Kilgarve Cars, was convicted of selling a clocked car.
Mr McGann pleaded guilty to selling a UK imported 2002 Volkswagen Passat with an altered odometer reading at Dolans Service Station, Kilgarve, Ballinasloe, Co Galway on 31 August 2006.
Judge Kilraine fined Mr McGann €2,000.
The decision to prosecute Mr McGann was made following the investigation of a consumer complaint. The information obtained from the complainant indicated that, when he purchased the car in August 2006 the odometer reading was approximately 81,000 miles.
Following advice from a mechanic, the purchaser carried out an online check on the car history. This showed that the mileage of the car was 116,000 miles approximately when it was sold at a UK auction on 20 July 2006.
Commenting on the outcome of the case, the Chief Executive of the National Consumer Agency, Ann Fitzgerald said, "I am pleased that the Judge convicted Mr McGann. This is a misleading practice, which could cause serious financial loss to the purchaser.
"Car dealers are obliged to act with due diligence in their dealings with consumers. They must take the necessary steps to ensure that the odometer readings are accurate. It is important for them to do this, to protect consumers and to avoid the risk of enforcement actions by the NCA."
Ms Fitzgerald added, "Buying a car is a major investment for most consumers. They should not be cheated by unscrupulous or careless dealers who sell them clocked cars. This practice could drastically reduce the value of their investment and could give rise to safety issues."
The CEO advised that the Agency had published a consumer booklet last year - "A Guide to Buying a Car". The Consumer booklet may be obtained by contacting the NCA Helpline, locall number, 1890 432 432 or by logging onto www.consumerconnect.ie.
"I would urge all consumers to read this guide before buying or changing their cars. It could save them money and hassle."

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/News_+_Research/Prosecutions/Car_clocking_case_in_Ballinasloe.html

unkel

The NCA is a joke. It costs millions a year and it secures a couple of thousand a year in fines. A bit like all the other quangos corrupt politicians set up and placed their mates in directorships in lieue for the fat brown envelopes. We've had enough of that, thanks. Close all quangos please.

/sorry for rant - couldn't help myself there

stratos

unkel wrote: »

The NCA is a joke. It costs millions a year and it secures a couple of thousand a year in fines. A bit like all the other quangos corrupt politicians set up and placed their mates in directorships in lieue for the fat brown envelopes. We've had enough of that, thanks. Close all quangos please.

/sorry for rant - couldn't help myself there

That sounded like politics watch out Peasant will get you banned:D

VolvoMan

What I can't understand is how they come down so heavy on the guys operating cartels within the motor industry. This in my eyes is far worse and dealers convicted of it should be given way more than just a slap on the wrist and a couple of hundred Euro fine.

unkel

stratos wrote: »

watch out Peasant will get you banned:D

You sure you got your facts right there?

robbie99

I remember an AA press release not too long ago saying that Ireland does not have a National Mileage Register and that it's not actually illegal to clock cars here (although it's illegal to knowingly sell one on without disclosing it). The reason the clocking was discovered was because the UK have a National Mileage Register and being UK imports the owners were able to easily check. If an Irish car was clocked it would be far more difficult if not impossible to find out.

I think this needs to be pointed out because both articles refer to the cars as UK imports and it's easy to make a mistaken association between UK imports and clocked cars.

VanhireBoys

Passats are obviously getting bad press here... They must be easy to "haircut"

Terrontress

Surely reducing the mileage from 100k+ to 35k would have a positive value on the car's effect greater than the €1,100 he has been fined. You'd think they'd at least fine him the amount he was trying to obtain fraudulently.

Seth Brundle

unkel wrote: »

The NCA is a joke. It costs millions a year and it secures a couple of thousand a year in fines. A bit like all the other quangos corrupt politicians set up and placed their mates in directorships in lieue for the fat brown envelopes. We've had enough of that, thanks. Close all quangos please.

/sorry for rant - couldn't help myself there

I don't know if you recall my email to them:

Me wrote:

Hi
Can you tell me why the NCA decided that an undertaking from a car dealer who admitted 'clocking' cars was satisfactory?
Why did the agency merely push for an undertaking and not a stricter punishment?
Car clocking is becoming more and more common in Ireland (or at least people are becoming more aware of it). Surely outcomes like this will not dissuade immoral dealers from trying it? Does the NCA believe that the outcome will discourage dealers from clocking cars?
Thanks
KBannon

NCA wrote:

31 March 2008


Dear Mr. KBannon


I wish to refer to your E mail of 20 March 2008, to the National Consumer Agency, querying why the Agency opted for an Undertaking, from a car dealer, rather then prosecuting the trader for misleading commercial practices, in contravention of section 43 of the Consumer Protection Act 2007.

At the outset, I should explain that the Consumer Protection Act has been given the NCA a range of enforcement tools, (both civil and criminal) to advance compliance with consumer legislation.

It is up to the Agency to use these tools as it sees fit. The NCA decides, depending,on the circumstances of each case, which enforcement action would be most appropriate.

In the case of the car dealer, the NCA decided that it was important to address the issue as quickly as possible. Having regard to pressure on the courts, it could take some time before a prosecution could be taken. In this regard, the Agency felt, that it could not risk the possibility of other consumers being exposed, while waiting for the outcome of a prosecution. Accordingly, it chose the speedier option of seeking an undertaking from the car dealer, to cease the practice of selling clocked cars and to compensate consumers who had been sold cars with altered odometer readings.

I should explain that the Agency will continue to monitor the car dealer to ensure compliance with the commitments of the Undertaking. If the company fails to do this, the Agency will have no hesitation in taking appropriate legal action.


Yours sincerely


********* *********
Assistant Director

useless shower of muppets IMO!

Seth Brundle

Terrontress wrote: »

Surely reducing the mileage from 100k+ to 35k would have a positive value on the car's effect greater than the €1,100 he has been fined. You'd think they'd at least fine him the amount he was trying to obtain fraudulently.

IIRC every 20k* was worth an average of €1K


*I can't remember if this is kms or miles!

robtri

€500 euro fine .... bloodly hell, at that price, it still makes it financially viable to clock cars....

Sponge Bob

The NCA has given us a fraudsters charter by not asking for a fine for every offence and for not reporting this fraudster to the Fraud Squad and to the CAB as well

Moanin

Davy wrote: »

Meath car dealer prosecuted



Is this not way to lenient? If should be more than €500 to deter people from doing this.

Phew! I was contemplating buying a 2006 Passat TDI from these guys last year but they seemed a bit dodge and gave it a miss.

h3000

kbannon wrote: »

IIRC every 20k* was worth an average of €1K


*I can't remember if this is kms or miles!

Someone in the trade told me €50 every 1k (miles I think), which seem to tally with your figure too.

alias no.9

A national mileage register using the existing records from the NCT would be a good start. In addition, it should be compulsary to have the mileage recorded with each change of ownership, including trade owners. Voluntary disclosure of mileage to the register at services could also be permitted. Anyone found guilty of clocking should be liable to a fine equal to 10 times the asking price of the car they are selling.

McSpud

If we cannot get a National Car Register can we get a National Fraudsters register?

It seems to be only pure chance that these cheats are caught. If I was done like that I would make a effort to tell as many people as I could. If someone tries to sell the same clocked car three times unsuccessfully I more than likely means all his cars are clocked.

I.S.T.

The company was fined €500, and costs totalling €600 were awarded.

Shambles :rolleyes:

CJhaughey

The penalty for clocking in the UK is a custodial sentence! We are a shower of muppets for allowing the Govt to create a consumer agency that doesn't actually protect the consumer very well at all.

budhabob

How accurate is information provided on cartell.ie? If a dealer had the proof from this website, would this be acceptable?

Seth Brundle

We do have a national register of sorts. However, the NCTS will not share that database over "data protection" issues!

Run_to_da_hills

squibs wrote: »

Should be hammered for that alright.

They didn't hammer them for a reason, ie they may not have the cash to pay a large fine. Motor dealers are having a tough time.

Drummerboy08

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They didn't hammer them for a reason, ie they may not have the cash to pay a large fine. Motor dealers are having a tough time.

Still not a reason for it.

He's dragged the reputation of every other dealer in the country through the mud, and given the next 100 people in Ireland planning on buying a car a reason to go to the UK and buy one.

As someone in the trade, i think he should have been put out of business. There is no room for anyone of his sort in the trade anymore. Times are hard enough, without having a clown like him dragging the whole industry down with him.

Run_to_da_hills

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

As someone in the trade, i think he should have been put out of business. There is no room for anyone of his sort in the trade anymore. Times are hard enough, without having a clown like him dragging the whole industry down with him.

Bad press is good enough, people would think twice and get third party opinions before buying, put him out of business and there will be more jobs lost.

Drummerboy08

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Bad press is good enough, people would think twice and get third party opinions before buying, put him out of business and there will be more jobs lost.

In general, you right. But, with the motor trade, any bad press it gets in Ireland, simply results in people going to the UK. Great news for Ryanair, not so great for the motor trade.

I'd prefer to see the 30 odd jobs lost in that dealer, as opposed to the hundreds if not thousands who have/will be let go, including my oul fella last week.

I hope that dealer gets a seriously hard time over this.

Davy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They didn't hammer them for a reason, ie they may not have the cash to pay a large fine.

But they would have had no fine or court dealings if they did not have these bad practices!

Surly the greater good is to have a dodgy dealer not trading anymore rather than 2 or 3 more job losses.

ToxicPaddy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They didn't hammer them for a reason, ie they may not have the cash to pay a large fine. Motor dealers are having a tough time.

Yeah they might be hard now, but back in 2006 when sales were booming he was clocking cars and selling them on..

The guy should have been closed down and jailed.. 6 months behind bars might change his attitude.. afterall if he acts like a crook, he should be treated like one..

A car is the second biggest investment most people make after a mortgage and this piece of scum was taking peoples hard earned cash and attempted to do it 3 times.. scumbag!!

I hope this drives him out of business and he goes to the wall.. :mad:

Tox

Barr

€500 euro fine is hardly much of a derterrent for a dealer - is there any crinimal charges relating to clocking cars?

Run_to_da_hills

Barr wrote: »

€500 euro fine is hardly much of a derterrent for a dealer - is there any crinimal charges relating to clocking cars?

€500 euro fine is a more than a months earnings to some dealers.

Gregor Samsa

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They didn't hammer them for a reason, ie they may not have the cash to pay a large fine. Motor dealers are having a tough time.

That's not a reason not to impose a proper fine. Cocaine dealers might be having a tough time at the moment too, doesn't mean that the courts should go lighter on them on account of the state of the economy.

To paraphrase the old saying "If you can't pay the fine, don't do the crime".

cianclarke

€500 is crazy - if it was proven that it was infact the dealer who undertook the act of altering the millage, they should have been bankrupted. €5k would have been lenient.

Seth Brundle

Does anyone know if they were/still are SIMI registered?

Tipsy Mac

The fine should be the price of the car that was sold, that's the only deterent worth having.

Seth Brundle

...and the car scrapped!

cianclarke

..and the dealer too!
Wait did I just go too far?

Run_to_da_hills

Make the dealer walk the distance between the docked mileage and the original mileage.

Davy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Make the dealer walk the distance between the docked mileage and the original mileage.

That creative

stratos

unkel wrote: »

You sure you got your facts right there?

No:o, I should have said, before he insults you first and then locks the thread.;)

R.O.R

cianclarke wrote: »

..and the dealer too!
Wait did I just go too far?

Went past the showroom on Tuesday night on the way home. Seemed to still be a few cars around but I'm pretty sure the name has gone from over the door, and there is a "to let" sign on the corner of the building.

While I'm generally sad to see jobs in the motor industry go, I think these are the sort of people we can do without.

Private1.

Me and my father both bought cars from these guys , we made sure they both had service historys adn never had a problem with either car or garage !! Once bitten twice shy ????

EPM

Private1. wrote: »

Me and my father both bought cars from these guys , we made sure they both had service historys adn never had a problem with either car or garage !! Once bitten twice shy ????

Bit more than that though - they were prosecuted for it!

Nice first post...

smash

EPM wrote: »

Bit more than that though - they were prosecuted for it!

Nice first post...

digging up an old thread to give themselves some good publicity

Cars&cars

Its too easy and with lots of money involved its too attractive:

look for a nice 2006-2008 Merk, full leather, maybe e-class or c-class with 110,000K miles plus. If a company car it may have done 20,000-40,000 in one year. Look at last service record, lets say it shows 10 months back at 60,000, buy car in the UK, have it clocked straight away say to 70,000 miles, then have it serviced or MOTed in the UK with the clocked mileage so it goes on record, bring it back to sunny Ireland, register for vrt, mileage at 70,000 is recorded.

Buyer comes along, likes price on nice e-class 70,000 miles, is a savvy customer, runs a cartell or HPI check, finds car was last serviced or MOTed two months back with correct mileage of around 70,000, feels great, pays the cash!

The punishment should fit the crime - if a dealer clocks a car and tries to make thousands in profit from this crime, the punishment should be thousands in fines and perhaps a register of dealers caught doing it that is passed to cartell so when customers seek info on dealers they can be told, dealer x in May of 09 was found clocking cars.

Ive come across clocking indirectly so to speak, but have never even looked twice at the massive extra profit that could be made from just plugging in a laptop and changing a few figures on a screen, however for those dealers that do, the punishment needs to be a deterrent.

alias no.9

Private1. wrote: »

Me and my father both bought cars from these guys , we made sure they both had service historys adn never had a problem with either car or garage !! Once bitten twice shy ????

Did you just get a stamped up book or were there receipts to back it up? Did you contact any of the garages to confirm that the work was done, and the mileage at the time? A stamped up service book without verification is pretty worthless when dealing with a proven clocker.

Private1.

alias no.9 wrote: »

Did you just get a stamped up book or were there receipts to back it up? Did you contact any of the garages to confirm that the work was done, and the mileage at the time? A stamped up service book without verification is pretty worthless when dealing with a proven clocker.

Yes for my car and my fathers, i contacted the dealer it was serviced from , i explained the suituation and they were very helpful sent me over copies of all the invoices of service work and miles of each service even a bulb change was on the history ,, the sales man in the garage was very helpful aswell gave me copies of all the uk documents. no pressure from them whatsoever took me over a wk to get all necessary docs in order !!

i suppose everybody gets caught out at some stage, even the car dealers !!

Will be changing my car again in the nxt few months and i have to be honest i will have no problem going back to them for my new car !!!

Cuddlesworth

Private1. wrote: »

Will be changing my car again in the nxt few months and i have to be honest i will have no problem going back to them for my new car !!!

Knowing they were prosecuted for clocking cars......

Are you taking the piss?