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What I had in mind was a couple of small tests during the year along with some oral examination in front of the board with the results being recorded and averaged at the end of the year from second class. Of course as a teacher you know, that really testing children in second class is not entirely possible as they are still very young.
I think this reflects a need for policy makers in education to actually have a background in the area. You just simply cannot put children in front of a board. Some would cry, some would zone out, others wouldnt like it so wouldnt try etc etc etc. Its simply a non starter. Every teacher assesses children. Most schools run an annual / twice yearly formal assessment policy that can be recorded. Some schools use these results to decide which children receive the extra support that might be needed (if the teachers havent been removed due to cutbacks). Anyone who has spent time working with children of that age will tell you that you just cannot overlay 3rd level assessment methods onto little children. I admire anyone who thinks outside the box for education, but this suggestion is way off the mark I'm afraid.
In terms of reading the curriculum.. If you stack the curriculum books, they're about the same as 5 large phonebooks. To make any recommendations that are credible about this crucial stage in a child's education, you must read every page of those, including the extensive areas on assessment methods in the classroom.
If you want to help the success levels of maths and science in Ireland, do these things at primary level;
1. Class sizes limited to 20.
2. Restore special classes and funding.however i would advocate that each year in the primary and secondary school should have its own curriculum rather than splitting it into cycles(primary, junior and senior).
Im not sure where you found the above information but the reality is exactly as you would advocate it. There is a currriculum for every year in primary. Each subsequent year builds on the knowledge and skills attained in the previous years.
I really do think that more in depth research is required if you are going to make recommendations in the area.
Anyone who would suggest ways to assess at primary level must first have read and experienced how primary school children are assessed already, and have at least stood in each of the classes from junior infants to 6th class.
I would respectfully ask that if you make Taoiseach some day, you adhere strongly to those criteria at a minimum.
Many of the problems facing our graduates of 2025 will have stemmed from policies and cuts dictacted by people in 2009/10 who never stood in an Irish primary school classroom.
I am all for ideas to help protect, prioritise, and foster education, but please please please do the research on the curriculum and methods already employed by teachers. The curriculum simply is not vague. Its extensively detailed and there's one curriculum book per subject, with each book divided into the individual years of primary school.
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/
With every respect to yourself, It really does frustrate me when I hear about what needs to be done in education from people who show that more research is most certainly needed on their part prior to issuing recommendations. This research is the basis for suggestions having any credibility.
I'd be happy for a future Taoiseach from a new party to stand up and say that he/she has appointed their minister for education because they know how the classroom actually works and have the needs of children as a priority.
I dont see that at all from our current government. They sound like none of them ever spent any time in a primary school classroom.0 -
I think this reflects a need for policy makers in education to actually have a background in the area.
yes true, but remember i am just one guy putting forward ideas and expecting feedback so that i can change them in the fields that i am not familiar with. in fact i am very grateful to have this conversation with you as a primary school teacher because i can see my mistakes.in fact this supports my point that having a cabinet of experts would be beneficial than a politician who has no idea about the sector whatsoever!You just simply cannot put children in front of a board. Some would cry, some would zone out, others wouldnt like it so wouldnt try etc etc etc. Its simply a non starter. Every teacher assesses children.
sorry i was coming from a background in Slovakia where you had some oral assessment in front of the class, though true my memory might be a bit foggy and it might be the case that the oral assessment came in fourth or fifth class. the whole reason why i am advocating some oral assessment is to allow for pupils to better articulate their thoughts.Most schools run an annual / twice yearly formal assessment policy that can be recorded. Some schools use these results to decide which children receive the extra support that might be needed (if the teachers havent been removed due to cutbacks). Anyone who has spent time working with children of that age will tell you that you just cannot overlay 3rd level assessment methods onto little children.
would you think, as a teacher, that more small tests might benefit the children more than annual tests? what i mean by that is some 5-15 minute tests every so often instead of longer ones once or twice yearly?I admire anyone who thinks outside the box for education, but this suggestion is way off the mark I'm afraid.
no problem as i said i am willing to listen to the suggestions and learn from them.In terms of reading the curriculum.. If you stack the curriculum books, they're about the same as 5 large phonebooks. To make any recommendations that are credible about this crucial stage in a child's education, you must read every page of those, including the extensive areas on assessment methods in the classroom.
i've only read the main points of the curriculum I admit. having holidays i will try to get through some of those books to broaden my knowledge, if i can get them.If you want to help the success levels of maths and science in Ireland, do these things at primary level;
1. Class sizes limited to 20.
2. Restore special classes and funding.
i would indeed support class sizes to 20, particularly up until the fourth class. the special classes should also be restored, true, but my experience with special classes is that many kids who go there are mostly kids who dont want to learn rather than having difficulty learning. that problem needs to be looked at too.
would you have any other suggestions that I might use in my agenda to help the primary school system? thanks!0 -
sorry i seemed to have missed some of your pointsIm not sure where you found the above information but the reality is exactly as you would advocate it. There is a currriculum for every year in primary. Each subsequent year builds on the knowledge and skills attained in the previous years.
i really didnt know that. the general overview only game the full primary school curriculum in points and so i suspected it to be like the secondary school.I really do think that more in depth research is required if you are going to make recommendations in the area.
yes i was most likely getting ahead of myself, i'm sorry for that.Anyone who would suggest ways to assess at primary level must first have read and experienced how primary school children are assessed already, and have at least stood in each of the classes from junior infants to 6th class.
I would respectfully ask that if you make Taoiseach some day, you adhere strongly to those criteria at a minimum.
thanks for the support but i would hope i wouldn't become a taoiseach but that the taoiseach expert that i would support would indeed put a person of expertise in charge of the department, so that a person who understands fully the needs of the education sector.Many of the problems facing our graduates of 2025 will have stemmed from policies and cuts dictacted by people in 2009/10 who never stood in an Irish primary school classroom.
yes that is true and i agree that education is one sector where cuts should not be made.I'd be happy for a future Taoiseach from a new party to stand up and say that he/she has appointed their minister for education because they know how the classroom actually works and have the needs of children as a priority.
I dont see that at all from our current government. They sound like none of them ever spent any time in a primary school classroom.
i fully agree and that is where my idea of expert led government comes from so that people who understand their department lead it rather than having ministries as means of climbing up the ladder of political career0 -
sorry i was coming from a background in Slovakia where you had some oral assessment in front of the class,
I would base a lot of my own assessment on oral questions and answers, and also through group activities. This is a very common assessment done by teachers who use this informal method to form professional opinions on the levels attained by each child.would you think, as a teacher, that more small tests might benefit the children more than annual tests? what i mean by that is some 5-15 minute tests every so often instead of longer ones once or twice yearly?
Again, there is plenty of scope in the curriculum for teachers to adjust their assessment methods to suit the child/group. Written spelling tests etc are an example of the 5-15 minute assessment you mention, but a proper assessment of a child is done by the teacher who uses all of the recommended assessment methods over time.i've only read the main points of the curriculum I admit. having holidays i will try to get through some of those books to broaden my knowledge, if i can get them.
That link I gave you gives access to the PDF versions of each of the curriculum books and the teacher guidelines that go with each of those books.but my experience with special classes is that many kids who go there are mostly kids who dont want to learn rather than having difficulty learning. that problem needs to be looked at too.
Again, only coming from a primary perspective, I would say that many children who seem not to want to learn, could have underlying learning difficulties which are only revealed and solved through effective structured assessment.would you have any other suggestions that I might use in my agenda to help the primary school system? thanks!
Class sizes is the huge issue. Regardless of what you might read in the papers, we have some brilliant teachers at primary level in Ireland. Give a good primary teacher a class of 20, and they'll get to spend way more time addressing individual children's needs on a day to day basis. A smaller class opens the door to effective discovery learning in groups and provides a more hands on experience.
They can then hand over a group of children to secondary school who on average have a better grasp of key skills, with the hope that they would then sit honours level papers at Junior cert level (especially in maths and science where we'll really need graduates going forward), maintain a positive attitude to these subjects into leaving certificate, and choose to study them at third level.
It really is a case of reaping what you sow. If a government doesnt fund and support primary education to the effect of capping class sizes at 20, then the second and third levels simply wont work.0 -
I would base a lot of my own assessment on oral questions and answers, and also through group activities. This is a very common assessment done by teachers who use this informal method to form professional opinions on the levels attained by each child.
Again, there is plenty of scope in the curriculum for teachers to adjust their assessment methods to suit the child/group. Written spelling tests etc are an example of the 5-15 minute assessment you mention, but a proper assessment of a child is done by the teacher who uses all of the recommended assessment methods over time.
class sizes are high in this country because the bulk of funds towards education are spent on teachers wages which are the highest in the eu btw
given a choice between reduced wages in exxhange for lower class sizes , the teachers have very clearly made thier choice this past number of years
That link I gave you gives access to the PDF versions of each of the curriculum books and the teacher guidelines that go with each of those books.
Again, only coming from a primary perspective, I would say that many children who seem not to want to learn, could have underlying learning difficulties which are only revealed and solved through effective structured assessment.
Class sizes is the huge issue. Regardless of what you might read in the papers, we have some brilliant teachers at primary level in Ireland. Give a good primary teacher a class of 20, and they'll get to spend way more time addressing individual children's needs on a day to day basis. A smaller class opens the door to effective discovery learning in groups and provides a more hands on experience.
They can then hand over a group of children to secondary school who on average have a better grasp of key skills, with the hope that they would then sit honours level papers at Junior cert level (especially in maths and science where we'll really need graduates going forward), maintain a positive attitude to these subjects into leaving certificate, and choose to study them at third level.
It really is a case of reaping what you sow. If a government doesnt fund and support primary education to the effect of capping class sizes at 20, then the second and third levels simply wont work.
teachers chose high wages over lower class sizes0 -
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I would base a lot of my own assessment on oral questions and answers, and also through group activities. This is a very common assessment done by teachers who use this informal method to form professional opinions on the levels attained by each child.
yes but are the students aware that you are assessing them? what i guess i'm really hinting at is that is there any form of formal records of assessment. to give an example back when i was studying in Slovakia we would have our 'pupil's book' where the pupils were given grades after an oral or written assessment and the parents had to sing it, which ensured that parents also knew about their children's problematic areas.That link I gave you gives access to the PDF versions of each of the curriculum books and the teacher guidelines that go with each of those books.
thanks for that i will read the pdf versions once i get enough time, as there are plenty of books i need to read through if i want to be serious about this movement.Again, only coming from a primary perspective, I would say that many children who seem not to want to learn, could have underlying learning difficulties which are only revealed and solved through effective structured assessment.
i dont know about the underlying learning difficulties, many students do use these learning difficulties to their advantage as an excuse why not to study. on the other hand a friend of mine is dyslectic but he never got an exception for spelling or anything like that because he simply didnt want to be associated with all the 'wasters', as he put it.
what i'm trying to say that sometimes i feel the school system gives a child x chances which are wasted many times due to the child simply not bothering to study.Class sizes is the huge issue. Regardless of what you might read in the papers, we have some brilliant teachers at primary level in Ireland. Give a good primary teacher a class of 20, and they'll get to spend way more time addressing individual children's needs on a day to day basis. A smaller class opens the door to effective discovery learning in groups and provides a more hands on experience.
i agree small class sizes are essential, however I would think that more than just smaller classes are needed. what that is, i do not know at the moment, since i did not read the pdf files but when i do i will try to come up with coherent policies.
i would also like to ask what do you think of other policies that i would be advocating with this movement? would you be supportive?0 -
if anyone is interested in joining the proposed movement and you have facebook please visit http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=129430631662&ref=nf where you can join the facebook group. i've only set it up a few hours ago and I will be happy if anyone interested would join0
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Please disregard the original post as the goals and objectives have been revised mainly thanks to the conversation here on boards. The new consolidate version of the agenda is here:
1. Have a political system where the government is made up off top experts in their field, not TDs. The Taoiseach, who also would be a top expert, would be nominated by the coalition that will form within the Dail, and he will then pick out his cabinet. The cabinet will have to be approved by the Dail, along with its program.
This will make the cabinet apolitical, which means it will take decissions that will be good for the country, as based on their analitical expertise, not on the popular demand. Since every law will have to pass the Dail, this will ensure that that people's wishes will be still listened to.
Also since TDs have the power to produce new bills and acts in the Dail, it will but greater pressure on them from their electorate, who will demand that they shall draft out these bills.I do admit that explaining a fundamental change in one paragraph is short sighted so if you have any questions about it please do ask.
2.Flat rate of tax. Introduce a flat rate of tax across the board on all taxable items. This way some taxes will drop, others will increase. The main advantage of this system is that it is very simply and a flat rate is proved to reduce tax fraud, as people generally don't bother putting in the work to avoid tax payments anymore.
The decreased tax on incomes allows for more money for the citizen, which he can spend on goods, on which VAT will be taxed, giving the state more money in VAT payments and other such taxes and also supporting production and increasing employment ie more money for the state from new income taxes.
To ensure this system is fair I would propose the using of the Negative Income Tax. It can be used as a flat rate of tax across the spectrum with the untaxable minimum, a threshold that would be established and would constitute of the minimum a person needs to lead a quality life, depending whether they're single or married or with children. Above this threshold the income would be taxed(just like the tax credits in this respect) with a flat tax. If a person earns below this level of threshold, however, the difference is taxed and paid to the person from the state.
For example, let the flat rate be 20%, and let the deductions be €20,000 per adult and €7,000 per dependent. Under such a system, a family of four making €54,000 a year would owe no tax. A family of four making €74,000 a year would owe tax amounting to 0.2(74,000-54,000) = €4,000, as under a flat tax with deductions. But families of four earning less than €54,000 per year would owe a "negative" amount of tax (that is, it would receive money from the government). E.g., if it earned €34,000 a year, it would receive a check for €4,000.
This way the administration process and the fraud risk will be reduced. It will also open doors for getting rid off the minimum wage as there is a guarantee of minimal income a person must get. Also this NIT acts as a subsidy for all the social welfare benefits that come to families with low income, reducing the social welfare paid and avoiding the welfare trap, as when the person moves up the ladder of wages his actual income increases.
Other points on the agenda of such a movement:
1. A complete reform of the education system, with continuous assessment rather than one exam to determine your life. This would include a change in the primary education as well, where children would also be assessed annually, with a greater selection of subject to increase the level of knowledge between the children in primary sector.
2.A foreign policy that supports the EU and the integration and well being of the EU members. This would include following the path of the Lisbon Treaty. A vital part for this would also be to create great exchange schemes for students in the secondary schools. On these exchanges they would gain the knowledge of other European cultures and hopefully will learn to accept them.
3.Selling off some semi state companies, such as the ESB, that the state doesn't need. In the case of ESB the state doesn't need it to regulate the prices of electricity as the state can still regulate the prices through Board Gais, which makes owning both companies a luxury that we can't afford at the moment.0 -
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pigeonbutler wrote: »What exactly should the Taoiseach be an expert in? Will he need a Ph. D in "Governance of small to medium sized nation states"?
haha of course not, but rather experience in the leading post of importance in the country would be nice. basically you need someone who's leadership has been assessed over time and proved successful. if you want more info about the idea of government of experts in my sig you can find a link to my blog where it is all explained0 -
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This would include a change in the primary education as well, where children would also be assessed annually, with a greater selection of subject to increase the level of knowledge between the children in primary sector.
Sorry I've been away for a while and just spotted the 'revised policies'..
Didn't we say that all of the above for primary education was already in place? Most children are assessed hourly, daily, annually etc, with formal assessments carried out according to international best practice for children of that age.
Increasing the level of knowledge is a very broad and general statement. Isn't that one of the things that every school should do and does do? You're suggesting a greater selection of subjects at primary level. I assume you've read the curriculum at this point, and you know the different subjects already taught?
I'll stick to primary education in this debate as its my own field of expertise but I really think the above aims need to be completely re-evaluated as you're re-inventing the wheel.. except now the wheel is stuck because the children are packed into the classes making the already excellent curriculum very difficult to teach.
I absolutely think that you have to read the curriculum books as a minimum in order to create primary educational policies. The ones you've stated make it sound like we're not increasing the level of knowledge and there's a narrow range of subjects. Thats false.0 -
Sorry I've been away for a while and just spotted the 'revised policies'..
Didn't we say that all of the above for primary education was already in place? Most children are assessed hourly, daily, annually etc, with formal assessments carried out according to international best practice for children of that age.
Increasing the level of knowledge is a very broad and general statement. Isn't that one of the things that every school should do and does do? You're suggesting a greater selection of subjects at primary level. I assume you've read the curriculum at this point, and you know the different subjects already taught?
I'll stick to primary education in this debate as its my own field of expertise but I really think the above aims need to be completely re-evaluated as you're re-inventing the wheel.. except now the wheel is stuck because the children are packed into the classes making the already excellent curriculum very difficult to teach.
I absolutely think that you have to read the curriculum books as a minimum in order to create primary educational policies. The ones you've stated make it sound like we're not increasing the level of knowledge and there's a narrow range of subjects. Thats false.
by greater selection i mean mainly the science subjects which aren't taught in primary school(at least so far reading the curriculum, i haven't come across it). moreover i had a talk with some of the primary teachers in my area and i found that history and geography were taught together using Earthlink books, while I would much prefer them to be stand along subjects. of course not from the first class, but at some point in the primary school.
on another discussion here on boards that pretty much focused on primary education there was this interesting point raised:its true the secoundary school curriculm is layed out in extrme detail in comparsion to the primary school one.there is no mistake as to what the students must know for secoundary school and not every school is inspected every year to ensure up keep of education levels our year was visted 4-5 times in a 5 year period by inspectors so when the primary one is poorly layed out teachers can make what they wish of it they may barely teach them all these topics while another may teach in great detail putting one group at a significant disadvantage to the other if were layed out in more detail not necessary inspected more it would ensure all students should be on a level playing field apon entry to secoundary education
which is very worrisome to say the least. i can't comment much on it because i'm not very far in the curriculum mainly due to the fact that i'm simultaneously trying to read the curriculum, lisbon treaty, an board snip nua and freedom and capitalism by Friedman.
however this does reflect the overall issue of formal examination that a teacher would do...once again not from the first class...
i've also been comforted with the issue of streaming children even in primary schools. what would your thoughts on this be? some countries have a system of Gymnasium schools, which i think is beneficial to the system.
also i want to apologize for arguing here with you after not fully reading the curriculum still, but i am trying my best to get through it all. the 'revised version' of the ideas can be still revised again, and i expect it will, it's just many of the ideas as stated in the OP were no longer relevant or were merged into one point(like the Negative Income Tax)0 -
I'll put your mind at rest on as few things. First things first, is that there is a whole lot of physics, chemistry, biology, ecology, environmental science etc bundled up into the the science curriculum. It is all there. I've studied physics to 3rd level as part of my degree and what you see at primary level is the subject as a whole broken into parts that are manageable from the eyes of a 4-12 year old. Thats a key point.. You cant just stand up in 3rd class and say, ""ok today we are studying the plant cell membrane and related structures." Its got to be packaged around their existing knowledge and age/abilty.
All of the different elements of the curriculum are broken down into precise objectives for the teacher. So the variation in what is taught comes from the teacher's freedom to differentiate and innovate while still achieving the learning objectives that are clearly set out within the strands and strand units of the curriculum.
Geography, history and science are grouped together as S.E.S.E. (Social Environmental and Scientific Education).
Geography and history, and science are absolutely their own separate subjects. They have separate curriculum books. Dont be concerned about what book is used. There are plenty of different types of books available; some that combine history/geography (Chapter 1 could be a history topic - Ancient Greece, 2 is a geography topic - Greece the country with maps etc) and some that don't combine. That integration runs throughout the curriculum and it is a very good thing to have. I use 3 separate books for geography, history and science but often I don't use the book if there's an interesting way available to achieve a specific curricular objective(s).
Variance in levels of teaching is something that you will never iron out, no more than that of the accountant or shop keeper or judge. If you go down the road of tying the hands of the teacher to the point where everything is prescribed, you lose a lot in terms of the flexibility available to the teacher to make things relevant to the specific group in front of you.
I'd really advise against forming opinions on what is needed and needs changing until you've read those documents. (No easy task!) Take note of the structures, the assessment guidelines built into each one, the integrational opportunities throughout and the spiral approach of building on levels of knowledge and competence as the child grows in age, ability and maturity. I really do think you'll find that the curriculum is detailed enough, suitable, relevant, and the assessment methods are clear.
Best of luck!0 -
Your answer to my previous question seemed to imply that a nominee for Taoiseach would have to have already held that office in the past...
"experience in the leading post of importance in the country"
My larger concern is that your idea for technocracy is based on the idea that there is a single correct way to govern a country and that subjective decisions never come into it.0 -
pigeonbutler wrote: »Your answer to my previous question seemed to imply that a nominee for Taoiseach would have to have already held that office in the past...
"experience in the leading post of importance in the country"
My larger concern is that your idea for technocracy is based on the idea that there is a single correct way to govern a country and that subjective decisions never come into it.
Sorry if thats what my post has suggested. No Taoiseach nominee would need to be someone, who holds an important top-post(preferably in in a non-profit making body or a state body as there could arise big problems if someone from the private sector was to be nominated to be the Taoiseach, though of course it can happen). The Taoiseach would have to prove to be able to successfully run such organization, with skills in diplomacy, economics and law. To put the it simply the top of all the top experts.
There is of course no one single correct to run the country. however technocracy ensures that there are people who know what they are doing running the country. people of expertise in their field, who are not submitted to the political games of winning the electorate.
if you are interested in more about technocracy please visit my blog, the address is in my sig0
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