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Freedom of the will

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    #62
    togster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    Zillah wrote: »
    Duh, it's MAGIC!!! Dave.

    maybe it is :p


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    #63
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    I wish people would stop confusing the word "energy" with "magical mumbo jumbo". It'd stop so many people from getting confused and thinking they were making any sense when they are in fact not.


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    #64
    togster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    Zillah wrote: »
    I wish people would stop confusing the word "energy" with "magical mumbo jumbo". It'd stop so many people from getting confused and thinking they were making any sense when they are in fact not.

    I'm not confusing anything tbh.

    When i say energy, i mean the natural state of a person. Some people are calm, some are excited, and of course it's much more complicated than that. I'm trying to simplify things for you ;)

    Would you not agree that we can pick up a persons "energy"?

    I'm guessing you are going to say that is purely down to body language?

    But it runs deeper than that. IMO

    Would you agree that there is such a thing as atmosphere? ´Have you never entered a room and picked up the atmosphere?


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    #65
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,970 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Zillah wrote: »
    I wish people would stop confusing the word "energy" with "magical mumbo jumbo". It'd stop so many people from getting confused and thinking they were making any sense when they are in fact not.
    There are many things that are called energy that are not actually energy. An electromagnetic field is not energy itself, but a potential, like the voltage that generates it. This field can then do work (transfer energy) from one place to another e.g. by standing your hair on end.

    Ever heard of Kirlian photography? Kirlian himself thought he was capturing an image of a person's "aura" or "energy field". Others have made related claims, but it's actually a well-known electrical property called corona discharge. It's also found in the operation of photocopiers and laser printers. No magic there, folks, just electricity.

    Unless you're talking about a quantity measured in Joules, then yes, it's mumbo-jumbo to talk about some thing's "energy". If you lift a brick up over your head, you're giving it potential energy; after you release it, it gathers speed, converting potential energy to kinetic energy. Then it lands on your head, releasing that energy in the form of bone deformation, heat, noise, and cusswords. A few simple calculations* can tell you, almost exactly, just how much kinetic energy (in Joules) the brick had when it hit your skull, but not whether you'll be any wiser about physics afterwards. :pac:

    * Assuming a 2kg brick, half a metre above your head, the relative potential energy is close to 9.807 J, and (ignoring air friction) that is how much energy it will have after it falls that half metre. Its velocity will be about 3.13 m/sec or 11.27 km/h. Ow.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #66
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    bnt wrote: »
    There are many things that are called energy that are not actually energy. An electromagnetic field is not energy itself, but a potential, like the voltage that generates it. This field can then do work (transfer energy) from one place to another e.g. by standing your hair on end.

    That's called potential energy. It's stored energy


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    #67
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,970 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    That's called potential energy. It's stored energy
    I don't want to get sidetracked here: we're both right, just coming at it from different angles. For example, an electric field can be said to store energy, and has a charge density. This is how a capacitor stores energy, for example. I was thinking of the wider concept of a field in mathematics, and about the relationship between a potential, energy, force, and motion: an electric field can exert a force, but no work is done (no energy is transferred) unless there is movement.

    It's no accident that an electric field's strength can be measure in volts per meter (the "potential / distance" expression I was thinking of) or newtons / coulomb (the "force / charge (energy)" units). I could go on, but the point is: "energy" has a specific meaning, and misuse of this (and other scientific terms) by woo-woo practitioners is going to attract my scorn every time.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #68
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    I don't want to get side tracked either but you're defining energy as the transfer of energy :D. Energy is defined as the ability to do work, not the action of doing the work. It's still energy when it's being stored :)


    Other than that you're completely right though. The word has taken on some metaphysical, wishy washy meaning and is trotted out by bullsh!t artists the world over.


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    #69
    togster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Energy is defined as the ability to do work, not the action of doing the work.


    Not everything is easily defined.

    It's not the type of energy i'm talking about. And you are sidetracking because that's not the type of energy i'm trying to dicuss.

    So what is the "atmosphere" of a room? Do you think there is such a phenonomen?

    Have you ever got "vibes" of a person? I know it's not a scientific fact but have you?

    Have you ever felt the atmosphere or energy of a room adapt to changing circunstances: What's that?


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    #70
    togster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    bnt wrote: »
    No magic there, folks, just electricity.

    Still pretty amazing all the same.


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    #71
    OK-Cancel-Apply
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    This is the problem - for language to work, things must have clear cut definitions, but concepts are often hard to define. We have 'free will' on a socially functional level, that is, we can choose chocolate or vanilla. We are 'free' to make that choice - we may be in the mood for one of the other, and there's nobody else trying to stop us. But in actuality, we don't have free will. Cause and effect. Since the beginning of time, every event has a preceding event which caused it. Our complex brains perform many calculations to arrive a decision, but ultimately, it is caused by something.


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    #72
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    togster sounds like a hippie tbh
    Dades wrote: »
    He was responding to Noel's charge that people hold non-religious views in order to side-step their 'responsibilities'. i.e. That people won't act responsibly without the carrot/stick of religion.
    No, Noel charged that people hold deterministic views might be doing so in order side-step their 'responsibilities'. I don't recall religion being mentioned.


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    #73
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    togster wrote: »
    Not everything is easily defined.

    It's not the type of energy i'm talking about. And you are sidetracking because that's not the type of energy i'm trying to dicuss.

    So what is the "atmosphere" of a room? Do you think there is such a phenonomen?

    Have you ever got "vibes" of a person? I know it's not a scientific fact but have you?

    Have you ever felt the atmosphere or energy of a room adapt to changing circunstances: What's that?

    That can be pretty easily explained. If a situation suddenly becomes tense you can tell by, say, someone standing up straighter or staring at people etc. Humans are pre disposed to noticing such behaviour in others because it helped us survive back in the day. If one of the herd has become tense, I should too so I need to be able to spot the signs. Similarly if I see a bunch of relaxed people I know it's ok to be relaxed

    A vibe could be someone's not looking you in the eye or keeps looking around suspiciously or rubbing their hands or similar. You don't consciously notice it but your sub conscious throws up warning flags.

    It's not a supernatural energy, it's just people are good at spotting the signs given by others


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    #74
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    togster wrote: »
    I'm not confusing anything tbh.

    Yes, you really really are. Energy is a science word. It has clear definitions, it causes effects and it can be measured.
    When i say energy, i mean the natural state of a person. Some people are calm, some are excited, and of course it's much more complicated than that. I'm trying to simplify things for you ;)

    That's not energy. Call it vitality, personality, or perhaps call it energy in the sense that they are healthy and have lots of physical energy available to them because of a good diet.
    Would you not agree that we can pick up a persons "energy"?

    Absolutely not. It's an ignorant explanation for a combination of other things.
    I'm guessing you are going to say that is purely down to body language?

    Not just body language, a glorious mix of expectation, race, age, sex, clothing, stance, tone etc.
    But it runs deeper than that. IMO

    "I like cake" is an opinion. "Bush is not a good president" is an opinion. "We can sense a magical energy emanating from people that tells us something about them" is not an opinion, it's a claim about the world. A false claim.
    Would you agree that there is such a thing as atmosphere? ´Have you never entered a room and picked up the atmosphere?

    What we describe as atmosphere can be experienced, yes. But just like "sensing a person's energy" above, it is a mix of other things. There's a reason that physical, mundane things are necessary for atmosphere. Candles make romance, a party needs music and crowds, wind in the trees makes it relaxing. We pick up on dozens of normal features of an event and get a single cohesive impression that we call atmosphere.

    No need for magic here.


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    #75
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    No, I think we are deterministic electro chemical machines. Complexity of algorithms etc may be off the scale of what we deem as 'machines' for now but the only difference I see is biological versus mechanical. Basically what I am saying is I would give equal rights to Data. :pac:


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    #76
    togster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    Húrin wrote: »
    togster sounds like a hippie tbh

    lol so far from the truth with that one man.


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    #77
    togster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    Somehow by putting terms on it explains it all.

    So what's love then? Being in love with someone? Or does it exsist?


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    #78
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    togster wrote: »
    Somehow by putting terms on it explains it all.

    Yes. Not everyone thinks that being ignorant of the mechanisms behind something is a good thing. Some of us think that dispelling such ignorance makes our appreciation of it greater.
    So what's love then? Being in love with someone? Or does it exsist?

    Why do people always trot this out as if it's some sort of deterministic achille's heel? What is hating someone? What is longing for something? What is anything that goes on inside a human brain: Incredibly complex electro chemical reactions.

    People have a long and sad history of assuming magical responses to questions that they can't answer. Universe=God. Illness=demons. Love=Soul. Thunder=Thor.

    Just because you can't fully understand the process behind something does not mean it's wise to assume there's a magical solution. If anything, history teaches us that you are almost certainly going to be wrong.


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