The Nuture of Talent in Ireland - Leinster dominated, Why?

Size=everything

Why do you feel there is so little talent right now coming from outside Leinster? Other than Earls Munster have no one to show and Ulster have only a couple. Meanwhile Leinster have Jonny Sexton, Ian Keatley, Jamie Heaslip, Luke Fitzgerald, Rob Kearney, Cian Healy, Fionn Carr, Sean O'Brien, Devin Toner, Paul O'Donaghue, Ian McKinley, Felix Jones as well as 12 out of the 15 starting players for the Irish Under 20s World Cup squad.

Now the playing pools excuse doesn't add up as Ulster are producing little when compared to Leinster despite having a bigger pool and Munster aren't that far off Leinster's pool to warrent such little return. This leads me to the question : Does Leinster have a better youth system than the other provinces and if so why is that?

The Leinster Schools Cup teams are always far stronger than the teams from Munster and Ulster and Leinster school teams regularly beat comfortably the best schools teams from Wales and England despite England having a far larger playing pool! And its not even a case of one or two schools in Leinster being capable of beating any school in the rest of Ireland outside Leinster and the UK you have six schools (Blackrock, Terenure, Clongowes, Belvedere, St.Marys, St. Micheals) all of them regularly and comfortably showing their dominance.

This leads me to the conclusion that the Leinster branch has far better coaching in place at a schools level than other provinces and this is something that needs to be looked at. Imagine how many prospects Ireland would have if Ulster had the ability to produce even half the amount Leinster have and if Munster were able to churn out some more youngsters! The fact is bar Earls, Ferris, Cave, Pollock, Caldwell all the talent for the future is Leinster coached.

Opinions?

(Slightly O/T but just seen a Leinter academy player Connor McIreney has signed for Ospreys anyone have info on this player??)

thomond2006

There's a ****load of Munster talent coming through.

Tommy O'Donnell
Felix Jones (he's ours now )
Ian Nagle
Billy Holland
Tim Ryan (gone to Toulon )
Dave Ryan
Donncha Ryan
Ciaran O' Boyle
Andrew Burke
Conor Murray

.................to name a few

tughfc

have to agree with this statement because all the facts are true!! i know where you are coming from and it seems to be a forever growing issue in irish rugby!!!

Crash

Gonna request people don't start just screaming "crap interprovincial thread blah blah" on this one, as young player development is a very interesting one. Can also move some of the crap thats been posted about it on other threads here if it continues.

While I do think the Leinster academy system is doing EXTREMELY well at the moment, I most likely underestimate the Munster and Leinster academies simply through having less knowledge about them.

As an aside: Munsterfans has a thread going on about this at the moment, which is an interesting viewpoint - http://munsterfans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20219&TPN=1

edit: Oh, and you can't claim Felix Jones as your young talent Thomond, Leinster trained him up Like Carr and Keatley as well for that matter.

Size=everything

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's a ****load of Munster talent coming through.

Tommy O'Donnell
Felix Jones (he's ours now )
Ian Nagle
Billy Holland
Tim Ryan (gone to Toulon )
Dave Ryan
Donncha Ryan
Ciaran O' Boyle
Andrew Burke
Conor Murray

.................to name a few

Tim Ryans 25 and hasnt played regularly at the senior level ditto for Ryan who I believe is 26, Jones is Leinster acadmey and the others haven't started more than 1 or 2 games for their province and weren't involved in the Churchill Cup (and with the lions on the CC was essentially a chance for the youngsters)

Like if your going to mention players like the above I could go on to mention players such as Dave Kearney, Ian Madigan, Keating, McGrath etc. who have started for Leinster and/or Leinter A and are regular starters for their AIL teams at 18

It still doesnt add up.

And I'm not trying to have a swipe at Munsters youth system I am just genuinely curious same goes for Ulster. Connacht are slightly more understandable due to the playing pools size there

Size=everything

Crash wrote: »

Gonna request people don't start just screaming "crap interprovincial thread blah blah" on this one, as young player development is a very interesting one. Can also move some of the crap thats been posted about it on other threads here if it continues.

While I do think the Leinster academy system is doing EXTREMELY well at the moment, I most likely underestimate the Munster and Leinster academies simply through having less knowledge about them.

As an aside: Munsterfans has a thread going on about this at the moment, which is an interesting viewpoint - http://munsterfans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20219&TPN=1

edit: Oh, and you can't claim Felix Jones as your young talent Thomond, Leinster trained him up Like Carr and Keatley as well for that matter.

Yes agree, I don't want this thread to be closed because someone decides to take offence as I feel this could be a very interesting thread.

Also thanks for the link, interesting read.

Nothingcompares

Size=everything wrote: »

Why do you feel there is so little talent right now coming from outside Leinster?

I assume you're from leinster? I was always under the impression that the best schools teams in leinster were better than their interprovinical rivals but I don't know if this is true.

I'm sure there is a natural cyclical element to it, probably not so long ago when POC, DOC, ROG, Stringer, Shehan, Wallace were coming through a schools system and people were asking how come there no talent in leinster feeding through.

Tim Robbins

Size=everything wrote: »

(Slightly O/T but just seen a Leinter academy player Connor McIreney has signed for Ospreys anyone have info on this player??)

Leinster has more people playing Rugby at schools and youth level. So statistically, they should have more young stars.

However, when the AIL came around Munster clubs wiped the floor of the Leinster ones as the Munster clubs were more competitive and just of a higher standard. Limerick derby's were always a big thing whereas not many cared if Mary's beat Wesley. In fact, the Dublin club just seemed like old boys clubs for school mates. Whereas, the Munster ones: Con, Shannon, Garryown have no strict affiliation with a school and had their own identity.

The AIL then gave the backbone of a pretty good Munster team which made 4 H cup finals and 6 semi's. Even O'Connell and Leamy played a good bit of AIL before coming through at senior level.

Things might change now as the AIL clubs can't put as much into players as they used to. Munster still have players such as O'Gara, Stringer, Wallace, Hayse etc who played a good bit in the old AIL.

TarfHead

Size=everything wrote: »

.. and Ulster have only a couple.

A bit harsh ?

McCrea, Whitten, Cave, O'Connor, Pollock & Henry. Hopefully the new coach will trust the new blood as much as Matt Williams did.

Four-Percent

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's a ****load of Munster talent coming through.

Tommy O'Donnell
Felix Jones (he's ours now )
Ian Nagle
Billy Holland
Tim Ryan (gone to Toulon )
Dave Ryan
Donncha Ryan
Ciaran O' Boyle
Andrew Burke
Conor Murray

.................to name a few

Ah here now, you really can't claim that felix jones came through at munster And Tim Ryan is after leaving to get proper gametime because he couldn't fully break through there.

Size=everything

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I assume you're from leinster? I was always under the impression that the best schools teams in leinster were better than their interprovinical rivals but I don't know if this is true.

I'm sure there is a natural cyclical element to it, probably not so long ago when POC, DOC, ROG, Stringer, Shehan, Wallace were coming through a schools system and people were asking how come there no talent in leinster feeding through.

Yes I am from Leinter but thats irrelevant before I came to these forums I had never even heard of provincial fighting it doesnt matter what province the player was from as long as he is Irish to me! So lets not derail the thread!

But during the time of POC,DOC,ROG,Stringer and Wallace Leinster had O'Driscoll, D'arcy, Dempsey, Murphy, Hickie etc.

Size=everything

TarfHead wrote: »

A bit harsh ?

McCrea, Whitten, Cave, O'Connor, Pollock & Henry. Hopefully the new coach will trust the new blood as much as Matt Williams did.

Yes a bit harsh but of those players Cave and Pollock were the only real Ulster produced players who got any game time at the top level

meanwhile Leinster had :

Sean O'Brien
Kearney
Fitzgerald
Sexton
Toner
Keatley
Fionn Carr
Healy
Heaslip

all playing top level

Tim Robbins

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I assume you're from leinster? I was always under the impression that the best schools teams in leinster were better than their interprovinical rivals but I don't know if this is true.

Note I'm not a big fan of schools rugby, I think more emphasis on clubs would be better for the game. But, I would safely say the top 8 Leinster schools would walk over the Munster ones.

Not because they are better players, but they just train more days and are playing more competitive matches and are bigger schools.

For example, Crescent is mixed now, which cuts its players in half.

There also isn't that intense over the top thing in Munster. In Munster you can be play for your school and your club whereas in Leinster they don't like that happening. I belief they are trying to stop this happening in Munster but the clubs will resist it I'd say.

A point of note is that a relative new Rugby school came along in Munster in '08 (or '07) and won JCT and SCT.

That would never ever ever ever ever ever ever happen in Leinster. In fairness, it would be hillarious if it did, but it never would.

Occasionally you might get a lower rank school win a plate against Gonzaga seconds but they'd never win the the top JCT / SCT prize. Never.

Size=everything

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Note I'm not a big fan of schools rugby, I think more emphasis on clubs would be better for the game. But, I would safely say the top 8 Leinster schools would walk over the Munster ones.

Not because they are better players, but they just train more days and are playing more competitive matches and are bigger schools.

For example, Crescent is mixed now, which cuts its players in half.

There also isn't that intense over the top thing in Munster. In Munster you can be play for your school and your club whereas in Leinster they don't like that happening. I belief they are trying to stop this happening in Munster but the clubs will resist it I'd say.

A point of note is that a relative new Rugby school came along in Munster in '08 (or '07) and won JCT and SCT.

That would never ever ever ever ever ever ever happen in Leinster. In fairness, it would be hillarious if it did, but it never would.

Occasionally you might get a lower rank school win a plate against Gonzaga seconds but they'd never win the the top JCT / SCT prize. Never.

I agree that I think its the difference in school level coaching that makes the difference.

Also lets not forget the rise of Kilkenny and CBC Monkstown two new schools to the SCT top level who have shown they are more than capable of holding their own!

Tomtom364

i dont think it is something to worry about because you have to look at the players going out as well.
all those leinster palyers hae come in while someone was at the end of their career.

munsters young players arnt breaking through yet because there havnt been many players retiring.
horan, hayes, flans(who was a munster youngin), DOC, POC, Leamy, quiney, wallace, stringer, ROG are all still going and have been going for a rather long time.

space has opened up and munster have brought up fogarty, buckley, both ryans, hurley, earls and murphy, they have also brought players from other provinces where they wernt getting a chance, dowling and ronan, and these players are proving them selves in munster


leinster have had holes in their team that needed to be filled and thus their players are the ones that are breaking through at the moment

GymJim

[Jackass] wrote: »

*sigh*

Well, they do bring them through. Regular young players in the Leinster over last couple of seasons and / or will be next year...might as well put together a profile of them, cause it really is ridiculos...and then let no more be said!!

Cian Healy* (most promising prop in Ireland, lots of game time, 21)
Luke Fitzgerald (B&I Lion, 21)
Jamie Heaslip (B&I Lion, 25)
Devin Toner* (one of the most promising 2nd rows in Ireland, lots of game time, 23)
Kevin McLaughlin (may be his break through year..mark my words..class player, reason Ronan let go, 24)
Johno Sexton* (Number 2 out-half in Ireland, will be surpries if not first choice by world cup, 23)
Ian Keatley (one of the most promising 10's in Ireland, first choice at Connacht, Leinster could use him back, 22)
Sean O'Brien* (Most promising flanker in the country imo, loads of game time, outstanding player, 22)
Fionn Carr* (first teamer at Connacht, top try scorer in ML, 23)
Felix Jones* (gone to fill gaps at Munster, will probably be a first teamer at FB, 21)
Rob Kearney (B&I Lion, 23)
Eoin O'Malley (hope it's his break through season, fine versatile player, already in full squad, deffinitley a big one for the future, 20)
Paul O'Donohoe (No doubt future Irish Scrummie, man of the match AIL final, bags of talent, 2nd choice at Leinster, 21)
Fergus McFadden* (top class centre, finisher & goal kicker, getting game time, 23)
Ciallian Willis (got some game time for Ulster, didn't make the impact expected yet, 24)
Niall Ronan* (on the brink of first team at Munster, 2nd or 3rd top try scorer last season iirc, 27)
Conor McInerney (Good versatile player up front, gone to Ospreys, 22)

* Denotes good chance of getting capped in near future from the uncapped players.

All of the above are either getting first choice rugby regularly or are right on the brink but have gotten game time and are worth a mention. The below are Leinster academy players who have excelled at under age level and who I would expect to have big futures:

Jamie Hagan (Prop, very strong in scrum, last played v Queensland reds, 22)
Royce Burke Flynn (went to S.A. with Ollie to train, massive man, big future, 22)
Jason Harris Wright (Promising Hooker, hoping to see progress to senior squad soon, 21)
Dave Kearney (better than his B&I Lion brother at under-age level, 20)
Shane Monahan (lots of traffic ahead of him, but superb big player, Shane Horgan mould with bags more pace, 22)
Kyle Tonnetti (again, lots of traffic ahead of him, but outstanding in AIL, may well be senior squad for next season, lots of younf talent in Leinster backs though, 22)



Munster: (feel free to add, but as far as I'm aware...)

Keith Earls (B&I Lion, 21),
Thomas O'Leary (B&I Lion, 26),
Barry Murphy (getting game time, yet to prove himself, 27),
Donnacha Ryan (game time, yet to prove, 25),
Denis Fogarty (had some good game, 26)...

not exactly churning them out...didn't realise how old these "promising" players are...most mid to late 20's...I think pretty much every Leinster player above who's still at Leinster is younger than every one of these guys with the exception of Earls...

I wonder how good some of the Leinster players will be by mid - late 20's? Fitz will probably have 2 Lions tours under his belt my mid-20's...

This seems to be a hot topic right now!! But there ya go!

This has previously been thrashed out on the below thread therefore wanted to include a pretty comprehensive list of players agreed on before.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055593589&page=2

Added to the Munster list are the following players:

Andrew Burke (OH with some ML game time this year and U20 OH, 19)
Conor Murray (SH in ML squads this year and U20 SH, 20)
Dave Foley (A team regular lock and on ML panel, 20)
Eoghan Grace (former U20 captain, 21)
Peter O'Mahony (U20 captain & no.8, 19)
Tommy O'Donnell (will make breakthrough in backrow this year, 22)
Tom Gleeson (next centre to make brekthrough, 23)
Billy Holland (Cork Con captain, ML regular and mammoth v AB's, 23)
Dave Ryan (prop played in AB game and a no of ML games, 21)
Ian Nagle (U20 squad lock and pro contract signed, 20)
Darragh Hurley (prop with previous games in HEC - injured last year but Munster's version of Cian Healy, 22)
Duncan Williams (A team/Cork Con SH and ML game time last year, 23)
Mark Melbourne (ML squad player past 2 years, 24)
Ciaran O'Boyle (number of good games on wing in ML this year, 24)
Denis Hurley (Lots of HEC experience and Irish A caps, 24)
Jeremy Manning (3rd choice OH, 24)

Felix Jones (NABBED )

Can also add McKinley and Keating amongst others to the Leinster list.

As for Ulster feel it's a bit harsh to ignore their academy breakthroughs over the last few seasons...Bowe, Trimble, Ferris, Pollock, Henry, Caldwell, Marshall, O'Connor, McCrea, Cave, Whitten. And we can't ignore their U20's such as Macklin, McAllister, Spence and Shiels.

Connacht have eh...Andrew Browne and Moran from the U20's...and that's it

Overall looking pretty good for Irish rugby going forward.

My 2c worth is that the academies have a very different focus. As Leinster schools is almost professional in training the players are coached by good coaches from a young age and come into the academy at a far more advanced stage whereas Munster have to essentially use the elite athlete system to pick the very best only and have them absolutely live and breathe the game to ensure they make it to the Munster squad. I think both will prove effective as the main current focus for Munster is to get ready-made replacement ready to take over from a few of the current crop over the next few years as a matter of urgency (i.e. Hayes, Quinlan, Stringer, ROG). In this respect a lot of time has been invested in the likes of Darragh Hurley, Billy Holland, Conor Murray and Andrew Burke for example.

Perhaps Munster's efforts seem short-sighted but I think they have to be at the moment.

GymJim

Tomtom364 wrote: »

i dont think it is something to worry about because you have to look at the players going out as well.
all those leinster palyers hae come in while someone was at the end of their career.

munsters young players arnt breaking through yet because there havnt been many players retiring.
horan, hayes, flans(who was a munster youngin), DOC, POC, Leamy, quiney, wallace, stringer, ROG are all still going and have been going for a rather long time.

space has opened up and munster have brought up fogarty, buckley, both ryans, hurley, earls and murphy, they have also brought players from other provinces where they wernt getting a chance, dowling and ronan, and these players are proving them selves in munster


leinster have had holes in their team that needed to be filled and thus their players are the ones that are breaking through at the moment

Exactly if Miller didn't retire then Jennings wouldn't have seen game time. Costello gone making room for Heaslip, Ollie gone making room for Healy eventually, Hickie goes making space for Fitz, Dempsey slowing down to make space for Kearney, Contepomi gone to leave space for Sexton, O'Kelly slowing down to make space for Toner.

In the past few years, Munster have been very settled. POC, DOC, ROG, Wally etc. have been first choice for a long time and they will finish at a point. Even POC had to wait for Gaillimh to slow to get a chance. If Sheahan hadn't gotten injured Fla wouldn't have seen game time. Leamy slipped in once Foley/Williams were coming to an end. There is a natural succession and I think Leinster have seen this progress in recent years abut it's on the way for Munster. This is when we will really see how well their academy is working.

Amazotheamazing

Look at it like this, Leinster and Ulster have far more rugby schools than Munster or Connacht.

In Munster there's only PBC, CBC, Munchins, Crescent, Castletroy, Ardscoil and maybe Glenstal. A lot of other schools might have teams, but not of a very high standard.

So, underage, as you'd expect, Leinster and Ulster dominate but when it gets to senior level, Munster clubs are far stronger. Con, Shannon and Garryowen are by far the strongest clubs teams of the last 20 years. In fact, not one Leinster or Ulster club has been anywhere near as consistent as those three.

That's the reason for Munster's success, imo, a massively strong club scene. Look at the amount of nominally great underage talent in Leinster playing in the AIL Div 2 next year. While Peter O'Mahony is with Con or Burke is with Garryowen, half the Leinster academy will be playing effectively two divisions lower with Lansdowne or UCD due the restructuring of AIL Div 1. As for the Ulster clubs....

Paul Smeenus

I think you have a definite point, there does seem to be a lot of sparkling talent coming out of Leinster at the moment. But I also think you're cutting your cloth to suit. I'm only really qualified to talk about Ulster, to be fair, so I'll do so.

But if you're including Heaslip, why not Trimble? They're the same age. And Ferris is 23 - a year younger. You attribute Keatley's success to Leinster, rather than the experience of playing regularly for Connacht. Fair enough, but do we not then get crediit for Bowe?

O'Connor, Whitten and Henry have played Heineken Cup rugby - the toughest games being against Stade Francais in Paris and Harlequins at home, and done respectably. They've now also all played for Ireland "A". Henry was supposed to play in the full Ireland internationals this summer, but was injured. Caldwell (24) did get his first Ireland cap.

I know the likes of Fitzgerald and Kearney are way ahead of them, but there's a difference between not producing talent and not producing the very best talent. And if you're going to mention Paul O'Donaghue, then every palyer I've mentioned has played at a similar or higher level.

We all know our own provinces better than the others, and whilst, as I said, I agree generally with your point (especially given the dearth of under 20s Ulster players!), I don't think the disparity is what you think it is.

Chucky the tree

Tbh up until recently the lack of players coming through Leinster has been shocking considering it has huge population advantage. For Munster a big problem is players find it hard to break through because the players ahead of them are so good where as Leinster haven't had this problem.

Crash

GymJim wrote: »

Perhaps Munster's efforts seem short-sighted but I think they have to be at the moment.

You have a decent point there actually, however I think it might be a tiny bit too shortsighted. if you look at the current starting 15:

Warwick - 28
Howlett - 30
Earls - 21
Mafi - 26
Dowling - 26
O'Gara - 32
O'Leary - 25
Leamy - 27
Wallace - 32
Quinlan - 34
O'Connell - 29
O'Callaghan - 30
Horan - 31
Flannery - 30
Hayes -35

The main fear I see there is that potentially that 5 out of the pack are in their latter years, but still a couple left, while two are in their last season or so. That makes potentially 7 losses over the next while from the pack, which will be extremely hard work to rebuild, as well as your 10. Its not a nice position to be in for any team, longterm, tbh.

Amazotheamazing

Crash wrote: »

You have a decent point there actually, however I think it might be a tiny bit too shortsighted. if you look at the current starting 15:

Warwick - 28
Howlett - 30
Earls - 21
Mafi - 26
Dowling - 26
O'Gara - 32
O'Leary - 25
Leamy - 27
Wallace - 32
Quinlan - 34
O'Connell - 29
O'Callaghan - 30
Horan - 31
Flannery - 30
Hayes -35

The main fear I see there is that potentially that 5 out of the pack are in their latter years, but still a couple left, while two are in their last season or so. That makes potentially 7 losses over the next while from the pack, which will be extremely hard work to rebuild, as well as your 10. Its not a nice position to be in for any team, longterm, tbh.

It's hard to break into a settled team.

Guys like Donncha Ryan or Denis Fogarty could step in to the team now without a huge collapse in Munster's form. It remains to be seen what will become of Buckley, we'll see if Gert Smal has made something of him over the last few weeks.

Stev_o

How many Leinster Academy and A players are playing Division 1? Compare that to Munster products in Division 1.

Size=everything

GymJim wrote: »

Added to the Munster list are the following players:

Andrew Burke (OH with some ML game time this year and U20 OH, 19)
Conor Murray (SH in ML squads this year and U20 SH, 20)
Dave Foley (A team regular lock and on ML panel, 20)
Eoghan Grace (former U20 captain, 21)
Peter O'Mahony (U20 captain & no.8, 19)
Tommy O'Donnell (will make breakthrough in backrow this year, 22)
Tom Gleeson (next centre to make brekthrough, 23)
Billy Holland (Cork Con captain, ML regular and mammoth v AB's, 23)
Dave Ryan (prop played in AB game and a no of ML games, 21)
Ian Nagle (U20 squad lock and pro contract signed, 20)
Darragh Hurley (prop with previous games in HEC - injured last year but Munster's version of Cian Healy, 22)
Duncan Williams (A team/Cork Con SH and ML game time last year, 23)
Mark Melbourne (ML squad player past 2 years, 24)
Ciaran O'Boyle (number of good games on wing in ML this year, 24)
Denis Hurley (Lots of HEC experience and Irish A caps, 24)
Jeremy Manning (3rd choice OH, 24)

Felix Jones (NABBED )

But other than Daragh Hurley, Ryan, O'Mahony and Holland I really can't see any of them break through.

Burke is third choice outhalf for Irish Under 20s.
Murray is second choice to Matthew Healy for Irish Under 20s
Foley didnt make the Irish under 20
Grace has gotten no game time at top level
O'Donnell has had no game time at top level
Gleeson has had no game time at top level
Nagle doesnt start for Irish Under 20s
Williams played one ML game last year and at 23 hasnt been seen since and Muster have signed another back up SH.
Melbournes has had no game time at top level
Dennis Hurley in my eyes is not a prospect



Like the players I listed for Leinster were all getting game time at ML level at the very least I wasnt going to list academy players but even still Leinster come head and shoulders above Ulster, Munster and Connacht

Jack Mcgrath (Leinster A game time at prop at 18, starter for Irish Under 20s and AIL club)
Thomas Sexton (Regular started for Irish Under 20s, AIL club)
Thomas Flanagan (Starter for Irish Under 20s)
Dominic Ryan (Starter for Irish Under 20s)
Dave Kearney (Started ML, Leinster A regular and regular for club and Irish under 20s)
Sheridan (Leinster A, Club and regular starter for Irish Under 20s)
Ian Madigan (started for Leinster, regular Leinster A, Regular Irish under 20s)
Keating (Leinster A, scoring tries for fun in AIL, regular for Irish under 20s)
Matthew Healy (Leinster A, regular for Irish Under 20s)
Ian McKinley (Started for Leinster, regular for club and Irish Under 20s, Leinster A)


All those players are all under 20 as well but if I was to include the other players on the fringe of ever making the leinster 22 then :

Royce Burke Flynn (Regular for Leinster A, gone to New Zealand, massive prospect)
Jamie Hagan (Regular for Leinster A)
Jason Harris Wright (Leinster 22, Regular for Leinster A)
Connor McIreney (just signed for Ospreys)
Kyle Tonetti (Started for Leinster, Regular for Leinster A)
Kevin McLaughlin (Started for Leinster)
Eoin O'Malley (started for Leinster)


Theres still a massive gap which doesnt make sense

Crash

Amazotheamazing wrote:

It's hard to break into a settled team.

Guys like Donncha Ryan or Denis Fogarty could step in to the team now without a huge collapse in Munster's form. It remains to be seen what will become of Buckley, we'll see if Gert Smal has made something of him over the last few weeks.

Oh i'm not disputing that, its difficult alright. Just simply stating that when you look at the age ranges, it does look like a potential cliff edge that'll have to be managed very carefully by the branch.

Size=everything

Stev_o wrote: »

How many Leinster Academy and A players are playing Division 1? Compare that to Munster products in Division 1.

But you must remember that a lot of Leinster players like to play for their school's club which may not be in Div 1 or are on scholarships to play rugby for their college.

Stev_o

Size=everything wrote: »

But you must remember that a lot of Leinster players like to play for their school's club which may not be in Div 1 or are on scholarships to play rugby for their college.

Doesn't say much if Leinster finest products can't guide more Leinster clubs into Div 1. Take Lansdowne aka Ireland U20 they have plenty of academy and Ireland U20 players yet they are still fiddling their thumbs in division 2.

If you look at the AIL history it spreads out like this

* Shannon 9
* Garryowen 3
* Cork Constitution 3
* Young Munster 1
* St Mary's College 1
* Dungannon 1
* Ballymena 1

With Marys being the only Leinster club to lift the trophy lead by Trevor Brennan (hero) who wasn't a schools player.

And there lies the problem, Brennan was picked up for his performances with Rangers and Marys, now count how many players are picked on AIL form and promise then players who are picked solely based on what they did for Leinster/Ireland Under whatever.

GymJim

Crash wrote: »

You have a decent point there actually, however I think it might be a tiny bit too shortsighted. if you look at the current starting 15:

Warwick - 28
Howlett - 30 Jones - 21
Earls - 21
Mafi - 26
Dowling - 26
O'Gara - 32 Burke - 20
O'Leary - 25
Leamy - 27
Wallace - 32 Grace - 22
Quinlan - 34 O'Mahony - 20
O'Connell - 29
O'Callaghan - 30
Horan - 31 Buckley - 28 Dave/Tim Ryan - 20/25
Flannery - 30
Hayes -35 Darragh Hurley - 22

The main fear I see there is that potentially that 5 out of the pack are in their latter years, but still a couple left, while two are in their last season or so. That makes potentially 7 losses over the next while from the pack, which will be extremely hard work to rebuild, as well as your 10. Its not a nice position to be in for any team, longterm, tbh.

I don't deny it could be a bit too shortsighted however they really do have to get players coming into the team (and becoming regulars) over the next year or 2 to benefit from the exeprience of playing with some of the older players before they are beyond competitive.

If you look above I think these are the main areas in which Munster need to get players playing soon. Of the back 5 only Howlett should be moving on over the next 2 years so I do see Jones getting a lot of ML time. You also have to remember that Murphy can come in and cover the centres very well and Gleeson will see a lot of ML time this year too.

Burke should also see a lot of ML time also. I think Warwick and Manning will be the stop gaps between Burke and ROG but still the boy can learn alot from ROG over the next few years.

In the forwards I think it's also clear the likes of Holland, Ronan, Donncha Ryan, Buckley, Hurley, O'Donnell, Grace, Dave Foley and Ryan will all see a lot of ML time this year with a few even seeing bench time in HEC.

All in all it is possible to see the natural progression coming through. It's just a case of McGahan trusting them in the ML for them to develop.

Size=everything

Stev_o wrote: »

Doesn't say much if Leinster finest products can't guide more Leinster clubs into Div 1. Take Lansdowne aka Ireland U20 they have plenty of academy and Ireland U20 players yet they are still fiddling their thumbs in division 2.

If you look at the AIL history it spreads out like this

* Shannon 9
* Garryowen 3
* Cork Constitution 3
* Young Munster 1
* St Mary's College 1
* Dungannon 1
* Ballymena 1

With Marys being the only Leinster club to lift the trophy lead by Trevor Brennan (hero) who wasn't a schools player.

And there lies the problem, Brennan was picked up for his performances with Rangers and Marys, now count how many players are picked on AIL form and promise then players who are picked solely based on what they did for Leinster/Ireland Under whatever.

I see what your saying but you can't really expect a group of lads fresh out of school to single handidly bring an AIL club to the top. Besides St.Marys won the same number of games as the winners Cork Con and were only one point off, Clontarf won the same number of games and were only one point off the winners and Blackrock only won one game less off the winners so the gap is hardly huge as you claim at AIL level


Also didn't Johnathan Sexton get spotted from AIL? I know Munster came looking for him and his brother after seeing them play for St.Marys

itsallaboutheL

Size=everything wrote: »

I see what your saying but you can't really expect a group of lads fresh out of school to single handidly bring an AIL club to the top. Besides St.Marys won the same number of games as the winners Cork Con and were only one point off, Clontarf won the same number of games and were only one point off the winners and Blackrock only won one game less off the winners so the gap is hardly huge as you claim at AIL level


Also didn't Johnathan Sexton get spotted from AIL? I know Munster came looking for him and his brother after seeing them play for St.Marys

i'm not getting involved in the rest of this, but thats basically what UCC have done

Stev_o

Size=everything wrote: »

I see what your saying but you can't really expect a group of lads fresh out of school to single handidly bring an AIL club to the top.

Also didn't Johnathan Sexton get spotted from AIL? I know Munster came looking for him and his brother after seeing them play for St.Marys

Nah's he come through the usual school system into Leinster/Ireland Schoolboys and Underage.

GymJim

Size=everything wrote: »

But other than Daragh Hurley, Ryan, O'Mahony and Holland I really can't see any of them break through.

Burke is third choice outhalf for Irish Under 20s. 3rd choice? Who's the 2nd choice? He's 2nd and it's really a toss up between him and McKinley. Burke better passer but McKinley better kicker.
Murray is second choice to Matthew Healy for Irish Under 20s. No he was 1st choice after coming on and playing outstanding v NZ. he is better than Healy just selectors tended to pick half-backs in pairs (Healy-Mckinley v Murray-Burke)
Foley didnt make the Irish under 20. Was he not over age?
Grace has gotten no game time at top level. Plays week-in week-out at Shannon.
O'Donnell has had no game time at top level. Played ML last season.
Gleeson has had no game time at top level. Played ML last season and every week for Con
Nagle doesnt start for Irish Under 20s. Doesn't mean he's a bad player...I note you don't point out the Leinster U20's who aren't 1st choice.
Williams played one ML game last year and at 23 hasnt been seen since and Muster have signed another back up SH. Fair enough.
Melbournes has had no game time at top level. Played a no of ML games last season.
Dennis Hurley in my eyes is not a prospect. Granted...had his name struck-thru but seemed to disappear once quoted.



Like the players I listed for Leinster were all getting game time at ML level at the very least I wasnt going to list academy players but even still Leinster come head and shoulders above Ulster, Munster and Connacht

Jack Mcgrath (Leinster A game time at prop at 18, starter for Irish Under 20s and AIL club)
Thomas Sexton (Regular started for Irish Under 20s, AIL club)
Thomas Flanagan (Starter for Irish Under 20s)
Dominic Ryan (Starter for Irish Under 20s)
Dave Kearney (Started ML, Leinster A regular and regular for club and Irish under 20s)
Sheridan (Leinster A, Club and regular starter for Irish Under 20s)
Ian Madigan (started for Leinster, regular Leinster A, Regular Irish under 20s)
Keating (Leinster A, scoring tries for fun in AIL, regular for Irish under 20s)
Matthew Healy (Leinster A, regular for Irish Under 20s)
Ian McKinley (Started for Leinster, regular for club and Irish Under 20s, Leinster A)


All those players are all under 20 as well but if I was to include the other players on the fringe of ever making the leinster 22 then :

Royce Burke Flynn (Regular for Leinster A, gone to New Zealand, massive prospect)
Jamie Hagan (Regular for Leinster A)
Jason Harris Wright (Leinster 22, Regular for Leinster A)
Connor McIreney (just signed for Ospreys)
Kyle Tonetti (Started for Leinster, Regular for Leinster A)
Kevin McLaughlin (Started for Leinster)
Eoin O'Malley (started for Leinster)


Theres still a massive gap which doesnt make sense

Re your "started for Leinster" I don't think this is a relevant basis for what you are trying to say. I agree they are very good players but you seem to ignore the Munster players above who played in relevant ML games yet you say it's relevant these players played in a worthless ML game the week before the HEC final when all other players were rested for following week.

You also seem to point out relevance of being AIL regulars for Leinster youngsters however ignore that all Munster players mentioned above are AIL regulars in Div1.

Yes Leinster have a dearth of very talented young players but that's not to say Munster don't. I think difference is far less than you perceive it to be from the number of young players Leinster have.

Size=everything

First choice is McKinley who is widely regarded as the biggest prospect in Ireland whilst the second choice is slotting Ian Madigan into outhalf. In fact McKinley is even captaining the under 20s in the final game

Matthew Healy is first choice for Irish under 20s he started every game bar Wales and is once again starting in the final game.

Also I didn't mention any Leinster under 20s in my list who arent first choice for the Irish under 20 and I wasn't aware O'Donnell, Melbourne and Gleeson started for Munster in the Magners League last season.


By the way not turning this into a dick waving contest (as I really dont care) I am just trying to prove my argument that Leinster are producing much more promising youngsters and something isn't quite right and possibly Ireland aren't producing as much as they can

Stev_o

Size=everything wrote: »

First choice is McKinley who is widely regarded as the biggest prospect in Ireland whilst the second choice is slotting Ian Madigan into outhalf. In fact McKinley is even captaining the under 20s in the final game

Matthew Healy is first choice for Irish under 20s he started every game bar Wales and is once again starting in the final game.

Also I didn't mention any Leinster under 20s in my list who arent first choice for the Irish under 20 and I wasn't aware O'Donnell, Melbourne and Gleeson started for Munster in the Magners League last season.


By the way not turning this into a dick waving contest (as I really dont care) I am just trying to prove my argument that Leinster are producing much more promising youngsters and something isn't quite right and possibly Ireland aren't producing as much as they can

Well there's also the conspiracy theorists who say that the selectors a tad bit biased and aren't fully objective when it comes to selecting.

anonymous_joe

Just to attempt to offer some non-province level stuff here -

I went to one of the aforementioned 'big' Leinster schools. The standard of rugby played was very high and very demanding, from the age of 13 guys are playing for places on the SCT if we're realistic. There's some but not much drop off between the ages of 13 and 18.

Most people at that stage have stopped playing rugby, only taking it up again around 16 or 18 and playing for a laugh. There's little interest in 'serious' rugby for most people.

Those who still play commit themselves to a long time in the gym, where good money is spent on physios and coaches who know what they're doing. Therefore, the amateur boys have near pro coaches. When you consider that the likes of Declan Kidney were ex-school teachers, it's not hard to believe that some of the coaches at youth level are very very good - and that's the case. With investment in good facilities, coaches et al, the guys are physically in great shape.

Add to that, while many people resent the concept of the Senior Cup and all the attention it gets, I know that from my year in school a number of guys have played AIL First Division rugby, a few have played for UCD and some have been involved in the Leinster set up itself. So the outstanding schools players do tend to get taken into clubs quite quickly.

Size=everything

Stev_o wrote: »

Well there's also the conspiracy theorists who say that the selectors a tad bit biased and aren't fully objective when it comes to selecting.

Well Allen Clarkle is the selector and hes from Ulster and in fairness no Ulster players in there dont deserve to be there so not too sure where this supposed conspiracy is?

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

I am just trying to prove my argument that Leinster are producing much more promising youngsters and something isn't quite right and possibly Ireland aren't producing as much as they can

Perhaps, but most of the younger Munster players will be playing at a higher level week-in, week-out, next season.

Next season, between both top divisions of the AIL, Cork will have three teams (UCC, Con, and Dolphin) and Limerick will have four, (Shannon, Garryowen, Munsters, Ul/Boh's). That's an amazing achievement for a province with only 6 or 7 dedicated rugby schools, and far less underage players than either Leinster or Ulster.

[Jackass]

Stev_o wrote: »

How many Leinster Academy and A players are playing Division 1? Compare that to Munster products in Division 1.

That's because they're all playing Magners League, Heineken Cup, Ulster, Munster or Connacht rugby.

Tony Ward said that the Leisnter academy is "the rolls royce" of Irish rugby, and from the track record, it really is up there with the best in Europe if not the world. Don't forget, that this is the first generation of the academy system, long gone are the days of AIL being the factor deciding whether or not you make a provincial team...the players that fall through the gaps end up in AIL, whereas the best quality players are now picked up young and in the academy and may play AIL while developing, but few AIL only, non academy players will make senior grade unless there's not enough of the "elite" young players coming through to fill it naturally.

And it may be the reason why a lot of the homegrown Munster players are being called in from AIL rugby.

I know ye can name off a list of academy players...that's all well and good, but counts for nothing. Because nothing has come through and nobody has set the world on fire from there. So they may have impressive underage international representation, but for every one of them from Munster you show me, I'll show you 10 from Leinster...it means nothing...it's what happens between academy and underage to senior squad and Heineken Cups and Internationals and Lions tours....

Whatever about who you follow or where you're from, there's absolutely no denying that over the past couple of years, the quality of players from the Leinster academy versus that of Munster is light years ahead....I mean, Leinster have an embarresment of riches that are being sent to other provinces / teams as there are just too many great players coming through to unseat the established players (as top international players like Horgan and Dempsey have been unseated by academy players).

I don't buy into this "oh but it's a settled team" or "we're too good to have academy players come through" - it's a golden generation in Munster rugby, but flash in the pan one? If 2 more Keith Earls came through, they'd get in the team ... if a Jamie Heaslip, Cian Healy, Fergus McFadden, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald came through, they'd get in the team...if a player is good enough (such as Earls or Thomas O'Leary) they will get in and unseat established players if they're in the way....

But they're not coming through and there is absolutely no way to sugar coat it.

It's not a dig at Munster, but at this rate even Ulster are producing Irish players of a far higher quality and I think that if it wasn't for Keith Earlsm this would be a VERY grave situation and a lot more attention would be on it. Perhaps he's a poisin challace as he's going to be a Brian O'Driscoll, no doubt about it, a once in a generation if not life time player...but he puts a very shiny gloss on a very dim situation.

Munster are already pumping their first choice team with foreiners, already signing scraps from other provinces and trying to get young promising players of their own from other academys as they aren't coming through their own one...there is no way Leinster would sign a Munster academy player, and there is good reason for that....the queue is out the door as it is...Munster are sniffing around the Leinster academy all the time...they even went for Fitz!! :eek:

Niall Ronan got slammed in the evening Hearld, as he claimed Munster came as his savour from the deluded Leinster folk who are going nowhere and weren't a team worth playing for, and he bought into all the folklor and rhetoric of Munster in his interview and Bernard Jackman wrote a column about it and said pretty much, don't slam Leinster because you couldn't make it here, and there's enough talent here that he never would have made it...and when you think about it, it's true! Look at the players around...he wouldn't get near the team with the likes of the younger O'Brien and McLoughlin coming through, and at the time Gleeson was there and Jennings...all superior players...yet he's a great quality player and got ample game time at Munster...the depth just doesn't seem to be there. (actually I feel very sorry for Ronan - he was on the bench in the 06 semi for Leinster and on the bench for the 09 semi for Munster - I don't feel sorry for him, I'm actually delighted.)

And you can see how Munster fans are already very excited about Felix Jones (who will be class for ye by the way and will definitely be a first teamer by the end of next season) - but this is a guy who couldn't get a senior spot with Leinster due to the amount of players and was forced to leave.......

It says it all, and I don't know what's going on in Munster, but the team and squad is getting very old, and players aren't retiring, and there's a reason for that......and time is very much against them.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Perhaps, but most of the younger Munster players will be playing at a higher level week-in, week-out, next season.

Next season, between both top divisions of the AIL, Cork will have three teams (UCC, Con, and Dolphin) and Limerick will have four, (Shannon, Garryowen, Munsters, Ul/Boh's). That's an amazing achievement for a province with only 6 or 7 dedicated rugby schools, and far less underage players than either Leinster or Ulster.

Great achievement but Leinster having 6 AIL clubs to Munster's 7 isnt that far off so there is still a lot of Leinster players playing week in week out at the top level in AIL so it still doesnt make sense. According to the Irish Under 20s the Leinster players are well ahead of the other province's players and the Leinster clubs aren't far off.


Add to this the fact that outside the AIL
Kearney
Heaslip
Fitzgerald
Healy

4/6 of the most exciting young players in Irish rugby right now have come from Leinster (the other two being Earls and Ferris)

Then you look at the most exciting ML players
Keatley
Sexton
Fionn Carr
Felix Jones (I think he will definitely be playing ML next season)
Toner
Cave
Pollock
And other than Cave, Pollock these guys are all Leinster.



It just doesn't seem right that theres such a gulf

Size=everything

[Jackass] wrote: »

That's because they're all playing Magners League, Heineken Cup, Ulster, Munster or Connacht rugby.

Tony Ward said that the Leisnter academy is "the rolls royce" of Irish rugby, and from the track record, it really is up there with the best in Europe if not the world. Don't forget, that this is the first generation of the academy system, long gone are the days of AIL being the factor deciding whether or not you make a provincial team...the players that fall through the gaps end up in AIL, whereas the best quality players are now picked up young and in the academy and may play AIL while developing, but few AIL only, non academy players will make senior grade unless there's not enough of the "elite" young players coming through to fill it naturally.

And it may be the reason why a lot of the homegrown Munster players are being called in from AIL rugby.

I know ye can name off a list of academy players...that's all well and good, but counts for nothing. Because nothing has come through and nobody has set the world on fire from there. So they may have impressive underage international representation, but for every one of them from Munster you show me, I'll show you 10 from Leinster...it means nothing...it's what happens between academy and underage to senior squad and Heineken Cups and Internationals and Lions tours....

Whatever about who you follow or where you're from, there's absolutely no denying that over the past couple of years, the quality of players from the Leinster academy versus that of Munster is light years ahead....I mean, Leinster have an embarresment of riches that are being sent to other provinces / teams as there are just too many great players coming through to unseat the established players (as top international players like Horgan and Dempsey have been unseated by academy players).

I don't buy into this "oh but it's a settled team" or "we're too good to have academy players come through" - it's a golden generation in Munster rugby, but flash in the pan one? If 2 more Keith Earls came through, they'd get in the team ... if a Jamie Heaslip, Cian Healy, Fergus McFadden, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald came through, they'd get in the team...if a player is good enough (such as Earls or Thomas O'Leary) they will get in and unseat established players if they're in the way....

But they're not coming through and there is absolutely no way to sugar coat it.

It's not a dig at Munster, but at this rate even Ulster are producing Irish players of a far higher quality and I think that if it wasn't for Keith Earlsm this would be a VERY grave situation and a lot more attention would be on it. Perhaps he's a poisin challace as he's going to be a Brian O'Driscoll, no doubt about it, a once in a generation if not life time player...but he puts a very shiny gloss on a very dim situation.

Munster are already pumping their first choice team with foreiners, already signing scraps from other provinces and trying to get young promising players of their own from other academys as they aren't coming through their own one...there is no way Leinster would sign a Munster academy player, and there is good reason for that....the queue is out the door as it is...Munster are sniffing around the Leinster academy all the time...they even went for Fitz!! :eek:

Niall Ronan got slammed in the evening Hearld, as he claimed Munster came as his savour from the deluded Leinster folk who are going nowhere and weren't a team worth playing for, and he bought into all the folklor and rhetoric of Munster in his interview and Bernard Jackman wrote a column about it and said pretty much, don't slam Leinster because you couldn't make it here, and there's enough talent here that he never would have made it...and when you think about it, it's true! Look at the players around...he wouldn't get near the team with the likes of the younger O'Brien and McLoughlin coming through, and at the time Gleeson was there and Jennings...all superior players...yet he's a great quality player and got ample game time at Munster...the depth just doesn't seem to be there. (actually I feel very sorry for Ronan - he was on the bench in the 06 semi for Leinster and on the bench for the 09 semi for Munster - I don't feel sorry for him, I'm actually delighted.)

And you can see how Munster fans are already very excited about Felix Jones (who will be class for ye by the way and will definitely be a first teamer by the end of next season) - but this is a guy who couldn't get a senior spot with Leinster due to the amount of players and was forced to leave.......

It says it all, and I don't know what's going on in Munster, but the team and squad is getting very old, and players aren't retiring, and there's a reason for that......and time is very much against them.

Excellent post, very interesting.

Bit O/T but if ever there was a candidate for poster of the year its jackass.

itsallaboutheL

Why does nobody ever put Sean Cronin in these lists?? IMO one of THE best prospects in the country ATM

Amazotheamazing

[Jackass] wrote: »

That's because they're all playing Magners League, Heineken Cup, Ulster, Munster or Connacht rugby.

Tony Ward said that the Leisnter academy is "the rolls royce" of Irish rugby, and from the track record, it really is up there with the best in Europe if not the world. Don't forget, that this is the first generation of the academy system, long gone are the days of AIL being the factor deciding whether or not you make a provincial team...the players that fall through the gaps end up in AIL, whereas the best quality players are now picked up young and in the academy and may play AIL while developing, but few AIL only, non academy players will make senior grade unless there's not enough of the "elite" young players coming through to fill it naturally.

And it may be the reason why a lot of the homegrown Munster players are being called in from AIL rugby.

I know ye can name off a list of academy players...that's all well and good, but counts for nothing. Because nothing has come through and nobody has set the world on fire from there. So they may have impressive underage international representation, but for every one of them from Munster you show me, I'll show you 10 from Leinster...it means nothing...it's what happens between academy and underage to senior squad and Heineken Cups and Internationals and Lions tours....

Whatever about who you follow or where you're from, there's absolutely no denying that over the past couple of years, the quality of players from the Leinster academy versus that of Munster is light years ahead....I mean, Leinster have an embarresment of riches that are being sent to other provinces / teams as there are just too many great players coming through to unseat the established players (as top international players like Horgan and Dempsey have been unseated by academy players).

I don't buy into this "oh but it's a settled team" or "we're too good to have academy players come through" - it's a golden generation in Munster rugby, but flash in the pan one? If 2 more Keith Earls came through, they'd get in the team ... if a Jamie Heaslip, Cian Healy, Fergus McFadden, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald came through, they'd get in the team...if a player is good enough (such as Earls or Thomas O'Leary) they will get in and unseat established players if they're in the way....

But they're not coming through and there is absolutely no way to sugar coat it.

It's not a dig at Munster, but at this rate even Ulster are producing Irish players of a far higher quality and I think that if it wasn't for Keith Earlsm this would be a VERY grave situation and a lot more attention would be on it. Perhaps he's a poisin challace as he's going to be a Brian O'Driscoll, no doubt about it, a once in a generation if not life time player...but he puts a very shiny gloss on a very dim situation.

Munster are already pumping their first choice team with foreiners, already signing scraps from other provinces and trying to get young promising players of their own from other academys as they aren't coming through their own one...there is no way Leinster would sign a Munster academy player, and there is good reason for that....the queue is out the door as it is...Munster are sniffing around the Leinster academy all the time...they even went for Fitz!! :eek:

Niall Ronan got slammed in the evening Hearld, as he claimed Munster came as his savour from the deluded Leinster folk who are going nowhere and weren't a team worth playing for, and he bought into all the folklor and rhetoric of Munster in his interview and Bernard Jackman wrote a column about it and said pretty much, don't slam Leinster because you couldn't make it here, and there's enough talent here that he never would have made it...and when you think about it, it's true! Look at the players around...he wouldn't get near the team with the likes of the younger O'Brien and McLoughlin coming through, and at the time Gleeson was there and Jennings...all superior players...yet he's a great quality player and got ample game time at Munster...the depth just doesn't seem to be there. (actually I feel very sorry for Ronan - he was on the bench in the 06 semi for Leinster and on the bench for the 09 semi for Munster - I don't feel sorry for him, I'm actually delighted.)

And you can see how Munster fans are already very excited about Felix Jones (who will be class for ye by the way and will definitely be a first teamer by the end of next season) - but this is a guy who couldn't get a senior spot with Leinster due to the amount of players and was forced to leave.......

It says it all, and I don't know what's going on in Munster, but the team and squad is getting very old, and players aren't retiring, and there's a reason for that......and time is very much against them.

So that's why Leinster have Stephen Keogh, Trevor Hogan, Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan, and John Fogarty? Or why they tried to sign D. Fogarty and Donncha Ryan last year?

Fact is underage success doesn't mean much in senior rugby. Des Dillon, for example, was amazing underage but never had the senior career to go with it. Same could be said for Duffy and Staunton.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Fact is underage success doesn't mean much in senior rugby. Des Dillon, for example, was amazing underage but never had the senior career to go with it. Same could be said for Duffy and Staunton.

Nope but :

Fitzgerald
Kearney
Healy
Heaslip
Sexton
Sean O'Brien

have all established themselves at the top level compared to Munster's Earls and Ulster's Ferris

Then you have

Keatley
Fionn Carr
Toner
McFadden

having established themselves regularly in the ML

And I have no doubt that Felix Jones will be a success.

So basically your looking at 11 Leinster academy products who have established themselves regularly

And of course thats excluding the exciting youth prospects that you'd bet your house will establish themselves in the next 2-3 seasons: McKinley, Dave Kearney, Madigan, McGrath, Keating

and players such as Paul O'Donaghue and Kevin McLaughlin who are set to have big seasons in 2009/2010

Amazotheamazing

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Why does nobody ever put Sean Cronin in these lists?? IMO one of THE best prospects in the country ATM

A mixture of love for Rory Best and hatred for Shannon/Connacht?

itsallaboutheL

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

A mixture of love for Rory Best and hatred for Shannon/Connacht?

Than is pure animal! anything that big that travels that fast deserves recognition!!

Chucky the tree

[Jackass] wrote: »

It says it all, and I don't know what's going on in Munster, but the team and squad is getting very old, and players aren't retiring, and there's a reason for that......and time is very much against them.

lol. Yea the reason is their all regulars in the Irish team, why should they retire?:pac:

anonymous_joe

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Why does nobody ever put Sean Cronin in these lists?? IMO one of THE best prospects in the country ATM

Because it's harder to impress at hooker. Flannery, Jackman and Best are all very good, and the Fogarty's are good too.

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

So that's why Leinster have Stephen Keogh, Trevor Hogan, Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan, and John Fogarty? Or why they tried to sign D. Fogarty and Donncha Ryan last year?

Please, please, please don't go down this road.

You've got Niall Ronan, Felix Jones and Ian Dowling. We've got the above-mentioned.

Look - there are going to be two Leinster players in the Munster first team next season and vice versa.

That does not have anything to do with the quality of academies.

Fact is underage success doesn't mean much in senior rugby. Des Dillon, for example, was amazing underage but never had the senior career to go with it. Same could be said for Duffy and Staunton.

Of course it doesn't - that's why Luke Fitzgerald and Rob Kearney are Grand Slam Champions, Heineken Cup champions, have won a Magners League and are British and Irish Lions. Keith Earls has played about 30 games in the same period they've been playing - he's been underused by Munster, but that's beside the point, where he's the one shining example of Munster's academy, Leinster have more...

Just because Ulster and Leinster are bigger provinces than Munster (in terms of playing numbers.) does not mean they're in someway superior.

Amazotheamazing

Size=everything wrote: »

Nope but :

Fitzgerald
Kearney
Healy
Heaslip
Sexton
Sean O'Brien

have all established themselves at the top level compared to Munster's Earls and Ulster's Ferris

Then you have

Keatley
Fionn Carr
Toner
McFadden

having established themselves regularly in the ML

And I have no doubt that Felix Jones will be a success.

So basically your looking at 11 Leinster academy products who have established themselves regularly

And of course thats excluding the exciting youth prospects that you'd bet your house will establish themselves in the next 2-3 seasons: McKinley, Dave Kearney, Madigan, McGrath, Keating

and players such as Paul O'Donaghue and Kevin McLaughlin who are set to have big seasons in 2009/2010

You keep mentioning Earls as though he's the only player in Munster at the minute.

Look at Munster's second team.

Hurley (Con)
Fogarty (Con)
Buckley (Shannon)
Ryan (Shannon)
Foley/Nagle (Boh's/UCC)
Holland (Con)
O'Donnell/Grace (Boh's/Shannon)
O'Mahony (Con)
Williams (Con)
Manning/Burke (Con/Garryowen)
O'Boyle (Garryowen)
Gleeson (Con)
Earls (Y. Munster)
D. McCarthy (Garryowen)
Hurley (Con)

For the most part they are all playing top level AIL and most will be good enough to step in to take over with Munster. that wouldn't be including guys like Varley, Cronin, Dave Ryan, Murray, O'Hara, Hayes, Barnes etc.

I don't see any reason to panic over Munster's prospects.

Amazotheamazing

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Than is pure animal! anything that big that travels that fast deserves recognition!!

I agree, I'd go as far as to have him in Irish squads ahead of Rory Best. Cronin is a freakish talent, imo.

d-gal

It's been hard for munster to break thru certain players especially in the forwards as they have had such a long term team. The likes of POC, Wallace, DOC, Hayes, Fla, Sheahan, Horan, O'Driscoll, Foley have/had been around for years. Even if you look at the back-ups for the backrow in munster - the likes of Holland, O'Donnell and Grace, 3 unbelievably good players that can't get a sniff at the starting 22, yet the likes of Grace was MOTM in the AIL final with Shannon.
Remember these guys are not getting called into Irish 'A' Squads simply beacuse of the other excellent backrows around the country who are getting ML/HC gametime. Munster are producing, just not quite as much in the backline - which is typical of Munster anyways!
The great thing about the forwards is that they are getting huge experience training with practically the Irish pack in every training session, same goes saying with the Leinster backs. Personally I think it's brilliant for the nation and we should all be delighted with it.

Size=everything

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

You keep mentioning Earls as though he's the only player in Munster at the minute.

Look at Munster's second team.

Hurley (Con)
Fogarty (Con)
Buckley (Shannon)
Ryan (Shannon)
Foley/Nagle (Boh's/UCC)
Holland (Con)
O'Donnell/Grace (Boh's/Shannon)
O'Mahony (Con)
Williams (Con)
Manning/Burke (Con/Garryowen)
O'Boyle (Garryowen)
Gleeson (Con)
Earls (Y. Munster)
D. McCarthy (Garryowen)
Hurley (Con)

For the most part they are all playing top level AIL and most will be good enough to step in to take over with Munster. that wouldn't be including guys like Varley, Cronin, Dave Ryan, Murray, O'Hara, Hayes, Barnes etc.

I don't see any reason to panic over Munster's prospects.

All the players I listed were regular starters in the Magners League in your list only Earls can make that claim. If your going to list players who are in the AIL I can list one twice as long but the fact is we are talking about established players

Buckley is 28 he is not a young prospect! And Williams is a product of Connacht not that it matters because I am listing established players playing regularly in either the ML or Ireland A players such as

Toner
Heaslip
Fitzgerald
Sexton
Sean O'Brien
McFadden
Felix Jones
Kearney
Keatley
Fionn Carr

Not players in the AIL who may or may not make it (though I did do a list of them for you earlier in the thread as well)


Of all those players you listed other than Earls not one holds a candle to the Leinster players I listed being churned out. This IS a problem and not to single out Munster as I believe Ulster should be doing more as well its just you are trying to argue with me that this isnt the case using Munster as an example and I think anyone can see judging from the players you listed to mine there is a massive gulf.

Once again really dont care about province loyalties I am trying to have a frank discussion, if your offended then stay out of the thread and dont let it descend into provincial nonsense as this is an interesting discussion (to me anyway)