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Does atheism matter?

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    CDfm wrote: »
    So before the Big Bang there was the flying Spagetti Monster and then what?
    "Then" implies the passage of time, but the FSM is eternal and outside of time and He was when aught else was not. His noodly will is infinite and His designs are not comprehensible by our petty minds.

    I hope that explains it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    robindch wrote: »
    "Then" implies the passage of time, but the FSM is eternal and outside of time and He was when aught else was not. His noodly will is infinite and His designs are not comprehensible by our petty minds.

    I hope that explains it?

    Pre Big Bang there was??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    CDfm wrote: »
    Pre Big Bang there was??

    The flying spaghetti monster, he exists outside remember :cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    CDfm wrote: »
    but wicknight it is not a house or physical thing.

    "it" isn't anything. No religion has ever been able to demonstrate that any of the supernatural claims it makes are actually real, or even likely real.

    Arguing that this doesn't or shouldn't matter is like arguing that it is still a good idea to put your money into a bank that promises 200% return on investments despite the bank never ever being able to demonstrate that any of its customers has ever received such a return or being able to explain how they would in the first place.

    No one would do that ever do that.

    Saying that well we can't prove for certain they won't get 200% return, some unknown way, would be ridiculous, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim not on others to prove it won't happen.

    It is some what bizarre that people seem happy enough to throw their rationality out the window when it comes to religion, I suppose the explanation is simply that religion offers something that is too good to refuse to believe.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    CDfm wrote: »
    Pre Big Bang there was??
    There you are using time-related stuff again! I keep on tellin' ya that he's spiritual and exists outside of time!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    robindch wrote: »
    There you are using time-related stuff again! I keep on tellin' ya that he's spiritual and exists outside of time!

    No he doesn't!!! I believe in ceiling cat, as proven in the lolcat bible.

    John 3:16-21
    So liek teh Ceiling Kitteh lieks teh ppl lots and he sez 'Oh hai I givez u me only kitteh and ifs u beleeves him u wont evr diez no moar, k?'17 Cuz teh Ceiling Kitteh not snd hiz son 2 take all yur cookies, but so u cud maek moar cookies 4EVAR!18 U beleevz him u getz cheezburgrs, but els you get invisibul error.19 Lytes ar on now heer, but catzes no caer cuz they can see wit no lyte anyway.20 Invisibul error no liek lyte, him no liek be seed.21 Good kitteh no skeered of lyte, cuz himz not messin up."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 391 ✭✭Naz_st


    togster wrote: »
    No it's an assumption. No one knows for sure, therfore it is an assumption, granted you will consider it a stronger assumption than assumptions made by others that god does exsist but it's an assumption all the same.

    In the absence of evidence, is the assumption of guilt equally valid as the assumption of innocence? Or is the conclusion of innocence drawn due to the lack of evidence for guilt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    togster wrote: »
    So in effect your perception and actions are governed by this "way" of thinking and as a result you have limited your understanding.
    togster wrote: »
    No it's an assumption.

    You assume that a bullet shot through your forehead would kill you do you not? How dare you assume such a thing. How limited your understanding is. You rationalize that just because a high percentage of others who have shot themselves in the head have died from it that you likewise would die. You are trapped in the confines of your own closed reasoning system.

    I think the only way for you to be truly open minded (physically and mentally ;)) is to shoot yourself in the head and find out. Otherwise your perception is flawed and you have merely settled that your way of thinking of a bullets interaction with your skull is the only way to look at it. You need to "think outside the box" and stop assuming togster.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    You assume that a bullet shot through your forehead would kill you do you not? How dare you assume such a thing.
    Relatedly, if heaven were really so good, and people really wanted to go there, they'd be hopping of the cliffs like lemmings.

    Interesting to see that they don't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    You assume that a bullet shot through your forehead would kill you do you not? How dare you assume such a thing. How limited your understanding is. You rationalize that just because a high percentage of others who have shot themselves in the head have died from it that you likewise would die. You are trapped in the confines of your own closed reasoning system.

    I think the only way for you to be truly open minded (physically and mentally ;)) is to shoot yourself in the head and find out. Otherwise your perception is flawed and you have merely settled that your way of thinking of a bullets interaction with your skull is the only way to look at it. You need to "think outside the box" and stop assuming togster.

    Sooooooooooo predictabele, an atheist using a simple explanation to void any discussion on something he will never understand :)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    robindch wrote: »
    Relatedly, if heaven were really so good, and people really wanted to go there, they'd be hopping of the cliffs like lemmings.

    Interesting to see that they don't.

    And neither do lemmings commit suicide or hop of cliffs deliberately to their deaths.

    They jump into streams to swim across as part of their migratory pattern.Is it a lifeforce or instinct who knows but they must believe they will make it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    robindch wrote: »
    There you are using time-related stuff again! I keep on tellin' ya that he's spiritual and exists outside of time!

    Ah Robin - thats very evasive - back to pre big bang -you had what?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    togster wrote: »
    something he will never understand :)

    I know you think your little smiley and that comment would be jarring in some fashion but it really isn't. The whole "open minded" argument is quite tired and saying I will never understand it is comparable to a sewage worker turning to me and saying "you will never understand the smell beneath a Mexican restaurants toilets"

    The ironic part of all this is that Theists tend to be the least open minded people out there. Atheists tend to assume a position of doubt and harbor a questioning spirit, whereas Theists seem highly against the possibility that everything they believe could be utterly wrong. Assuming a neutral stance is the most open minded position to be in. When I hear a theist say "be open minded", what I actually hear is "I have a specific belief that I want you to accept without evidence"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    I know you think your little smiley and that comment would be jarring in some fashion but it really isn't. The whole "open minded" argument is quite tired and saying I will never understand it is comparable to a sewage worker turning to me and saying "you will never understand the smell beneath a Mexican restaurants toilets"

    The ironic part of all this is that Theists tend to be the least open minded people out there. Atheists tend to assume a position of doubt and harbor a questioning spirit, whereas Theists seem highly against the possibility that everything they believe could be utterly wrong. Assuming a neutral stance is the most open minded position to be in. When I hear a theist say "be open minded", what I actually hear is "I have a specific belief that I want you to accept without evidence"

    The funny thing is i am neither a theist or a religious person. i was simply trying to make a point about peoples thinking processes but you shot it down because you thought i was trying to make you believe in some guy in the sky which i was not. Thinking outside the box can be applied to everyday life.
    I apologise if i came across as condescending.

    I am just a guy who loves life and thinks the magic and wonder of it has been destroyed by people fighting over whether a god exsists or not. I see goodness in everything. How can that be such a bad thing?

    Atheists don't think outside the box. They confine their thinking. If it works for you then good.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    togster wrote: »
    Sooooooooooo predictabele, an atheist using a simple explanation to void any discussion on something he will never understand :)

    Is predictabele Italian for predictable?

    Anyway, he's not avoiding discussion, he's explaining why you're wrong. That fact that someone disagrees with you does not necessarily mean they're not open minded. Maybe they very open mindedly considered what you said but still in the end concluded that you're spout some facetious nonsense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    togster wrote: »
    The funny thing is i am neither a theist or a religious person. i was simply trying to make a point about peoples thinking processes but you shot it down because you thought i was trying to make you believe in some guy in the sky which i was not. Thinking outside the box can be applied to everyday life.
    I apologise if i came across as condescending.

    I am just a guy who loves life and thinks the magic and wonder of it has been destroyed by people fighting over whether a god exsists or not. I see goodness in everything. How can that be such a bad thing?

    Atheists don't think outside the box. They confine their thinking. If it works for you then good.

    :rolleyes:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    Zillah wrote: »
    Is predictabele Italian for predictable?

    Anyway, he's not avoiding discussion, he's explaining why you're wrong. That fact that someone disagrees with you does not necessarily mean they're not open minded. Maybe they very open mindedly considered what you said but still in the end concluded that you're spout some facetious nonsense.

    No need to be like that Zillah. I'm sorry i didn't spell it correctly. Why so defensive ;) I'm just saying that there are many ways of looking at things. Confining yourself to one way is not good.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    togster wrote: »
    Atheists don't think outside the box. They confine their thinking.
    They confine their thinking in the same way that a mathematician "confines" his answer to the question of "What's 2+2?" to "4".

    If you fill your mind with all the crap the world throws at you, then you risk ending up with a mind like a sewer.

    Or indeed, now that it pops into my head for no very good reason, perhaps with a mind like that of Bishop Williamson who -- in the days before his anti-semitism and Holocaust-denialism became better known than they were in February last year -- had this to say about open-mindedness:
    Two and two are four. Well, yes, of course they are, but they're also five. It's more creative. It's more broad-minded. It's more free [...] They're also fifteen, and they're five million. Do you see the creative extension and possibilities of refusing to be imprisoned by the narrow-mindedness of "two and two are four"?
    It was a almost inevitable he ended up believing the loo-lah rubbish he does :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Wicknight wrote: »
    why would it be arrogant to expect a demonstration that something is likely to be true (not "proof", that is not something science deals with) before you believe it is.

    Certainly, it's not at all arrogant. The Bible also warns against blind faith.
    I'm sorry I don't understand that?

    I think he is criticising the line of thinking that dictates that atheism is a prerequisite for rational thinking.

    Thus providing ammunition to those who think that all theists are irrational no matter what. Which is quite like saying "for all intents and purposes our opponents are insane".
    Dades wrote: »
    The material world told me there isn't a spiritual one and I believe it. :)

    No, the material world, I expect, didn't "tell" you there was a spiritual world. Which is not the same as it telling you that there isn't one. This is the kind of attitude I'm talking about when I say that atheists think their views are backed up by the universe itself.
    The ironic part of all this is that Theists tend to be the least open minded people out there. Atheists tend to assume a position of doubt and harbor a questioning spirit

    In my experience this is not true. Atheists tend to be pretty sure of their views. Religious people tend to be full of doubts. You'll rarely get an atheist who is sure that there is no God, but the vast majority think, live and argue as if there is none. Every day you can see a rake of opinions expressed in this forum which show atheists to be sure that their views are definitely the most rational, most moral and most scientifically sound of all possible worldviews.

    So don't give me this "questioning spirit" nonsense. Many atheists seem to be hell-bent on everyone on earth believing the same thing, at risk of being condemned as "irrational" or worse. That certainty is why they evangelise.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    robindch wrote: »
    If you fill your mind with all the crap the world throws at you, then you risk ending up with a mind like a sewer.

    So true.

    But you shouldn't dismiss things immediately because you have adopted a certain prejudice to certain things.
    robindch wrote: »
    They confine their thinking in the same way that a mathematician "confines" his answer to the question of "What's 2+2?" to "4".

    So you agree you confine your way of thinking? How often does skepticism impact on your thinking of things in everyday life? Your relationships with others or even things as simple as choosing what you will buy at the supermarket? Skepticism rarely cinfines itself to the area of god and religion alone. That is my point.
    robindch wrote: »
    Or indeed, now that it pops into my head for no very good reason

    So you are in control of your thoughts? Can you even stop thinking?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    togster wrote: »
    So true.

    But you shouldn't dismiss things immediately because you have adopted a certain prejudice to certain things.

    Not very Occams Razor friendly:rolleyes:

    Does Occam do pre big bang


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Húrin wrote: »
    I think he is criticising the line of thinking that dictates that atheism is a prerequisite for rational thinking.

    It's a consequence, not a prerequisite :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    Zillah wrote: »
    It's a consequence, not a prerequisite :D

    It's only a consequence because you choose so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    Húrin wrote: »
    Thus providing ammunition to those who think that all theists are irrational no matter what. Which is quite like saying "for all intents and purposes our opponents are insane".

    It's funny because i have not seen the ridicule that is exhibited on this forum on the Christian forum. And i am not religious.

    How is poking fun at anyone a good thing? Sure you can disagree. But mocking people is a low blow. Now that is the worst type of ammunition.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    togster wrote: »
    It's funny because i have not seen the ridicule that is exhibited on this forum on the Christian forum. And i am not religious.

    How is poking fun at anyone a good thing? Sure you can disagree. But mocking people is a low blow. Now that is the worst type of ammunition.

    Ya mean its not all scientific and they are only pretending:mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    togster wrote: »
    It's only a consequence because you choose so.

    Stop it. Just stop it.

    2 + 2 = 5 is not being open minded, or thinking outside the box, or broadening your horizons. It's stupid. That's it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    Zillah wrote: »
    Stop it. Just stop it.

    OK


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    togster wrote: »
    OK

    We are not worthy! We are not worthy!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    What the hell's happening in this thread?


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