Should 'non-irish' athletes be allowed compete for Ireland

ss43

Hard Worker wrote: »

We have a few who are capable. Chris Cariss is a 2.15 marathon runner who ran 2.19.46 in Hamburg this year. Hopefully we will have three Irish who'll run sub 2.18 in Dublin this year.

I thought he was english? Who would the third be?

thirtyfoot

ss43 wrote: »

I thought he was english?

No. Per Tilastopaja - Chris Cariss IRELAND DOB 1 March 75. and one of the scoring quartet in this years Inter-Clubs winning team.

PB 2:15:01 when finishing 18th in London in 2004.

ss43

Tingle wrote: »

No. Per Tilastopaja - Chris Cariss IRELAND DOB 1 March 75. and one of the scoring quartet in this years Inter-Clubs winning team.

PB 2:15:01 when finishing 18th in London in 2004.

He's 34 and ran 2:15 five years ago. How come he hasn't run internationally before (or has he and I missed it)?

thirtyfoot

ss43 wrote: »

He's 34 and ran 2:15 five years ago. How come he hasn't run internationally before (or has he and I missed it)?

Don't know as I don't know him and unfortunately Tilastopoja doesn't go into that kind of detail (yet!) and there are only 3 race results for him in the database (03, 04 & 09). Don't think he has run internationally for Ireland as it would probably come up on Tilastopoja. Maybe he is a late developer.

TheRoadRunner

ss43 wrote: »

He's 34 and ran 2:15 five years ago. How come he hasn't run internationally before (or has he and I missed it)?

I'm open to correction but he changed allegiance a couple years back. I think he may be actually Scottish.

He first made an appearance for Clonliffe a couple of years ago in Belfast in the Interclub XC. I think he placed 4th but to the best of my knowledge he hasn't ran an international for Ireland yet. There was talk of him trying to get the Olympic marathon standard last year but that didn't work out obviously.

ecoli

May should adopt the ideas of GB,Spain,Sweden,USA etc and pick ourselves up a few of these to run for us wide choice as enough to come in all shapes and sizes these days:pac:

Hard Worker

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I'm open to correction but he changed allegiance a couple years back. I think he may be actually Scottish.

He first made an appearance for Clonliffe a couple of years ago in Belfast in the Interclub XC. I think he placed 4th but to the best of my knowledge he hasn't ran an international for Ireland yet. There was talk of him trying to get the Olympic marathon standard last year but that didn't work out obviously.

Chris was born and reared in Bradford. He has a lot of medical issues and spends a lot of time in hospital. It's unbelieveable how he can run so well considering.
Chris was caught in the Bradford fire as a youngster ( football stadium went to ashes in 8 minutes ) but managed to escape under the turnstiles. His brother and father also escaped through a different exit.
He had a barney with UK athletics a few years ago and opted to run for Ireland under the parentage rule.

ss43

Hard Worker wrote: »

Chris was born and reared in Bradford. He has a lot of medical issues and spends a lot of time in hospital. It's unbelieveable how he can run so well considering.
Chris was caught in the Bradford fire as a youngster ( football stadium went to ashes in 8 minutes ) but managed to escape under the turnstiles. His brother and father also escaped through a different exit.
He had a barney with UK athletics a few years ago and opted to run for Ireland under the parentage rule.

so he only noticed his Irishness after a row with UKA - wonderful. Out of curiosity, how many people here want Irish teams containing athletes who only run for us because they have a problem with their own federation?

Hard Worker

ss43 wrote: »

so he only noticed his Irishness after a row with UKA - wonderful. Out of curiosity, how many people here want Irish teams containing athletes who only run for us because they have a problem with their own federation?

He has dual nationality and obviously chose to run with the people he grew up with. No problem there.
Chris is as Irish as any of the diaspora in the UK. I used to run with London Irish years ago and some of the 2nd generation Irish kids ran for the English schools and continued on from there. It didn't make them any less Irish.
Obviously, this debate comes up more regularly in football. I never had a problem with people choosing one or the other if they have dual nationality.

ecoli

Personally i think whether they irish or dual we should choose are strongest team and if that means people here miss out then they need to up here performance.
The greater competition for spots on the international stage can only result in improvement in the quality of athlete we send to international competitions

cfitz

Every year, the AAI should send out the full grant amount to Kenya along with a parcel of singlets and divide it out to about ten of their second tier athletes. Then we can all celebrate when they win the European Championships.

ecoli

dunno if they would win considering you have an ethiopian running for spain, two sudaneese athletes for sweden and UK and a South African for us already.
Surely this is enough to africans to disqualify the use of the term "European Championships"

ss43

Hard Worker wrote: »

He has dual nationality and obviously chose to run with the people he grew up with. No problem there.
Chris is as Irish as any of the diaspora in the UK. I used to run with London Irish years ago and some of the 2nd generation Irish kids ran for the English schools and continued on from there. It didn't make them any less Irish.
Obviously, this debate comes up more regularly in football. I never had a problem with people choosing one or the other if they have dual nationality.

I don't really see how if you are born somewhere and grow up in that place and continue to live in that place, you can claim to be from somewhere else.
Do you mind if they switch between the two then - it would seem that he was happy enough with the UK until he had the row with UKA. What happens if he has a row with the AAI, will he become British again? (all assuming the bit about the row posted here is true of course)

ecoli wrote: »

dunno if they would win considering you have an ethiopian running for spain, two sudaneese athletes for sweden and UK and a South African for us already.
Surely this is enough to africans to disqualify the use of the term "European Championships"

I presume by Sudansese you mean Somali and are talking about Mo Farah and Mustafa Mohamed. Both left Somalia when they were 11 which means both have lived longer in Europe than Africa. Farah talks with an english accent and started running there. It's reasonable that he should run for britain and compete in European championships. Not sure how much running Mustafa did before leaving but he represented Sweden as a junior. Don't see any problems there either.

Alemayehu Bezabeh moved to Spain from Ethiopia when he was 17 or 18, lives there currently and never ran for another country. I'd see that as a grey area as he was born and raised in one country but chose to make a life for himself in another.

The South African running for us never lived here, ran for SA as a junior and decided to run for Ireland because of problems he had with the South African federation. That takes away the point in having team or regional competitions IMO.

Chris Cariss seems to be quite similar in that he wasn't born here, he doesn't live here and he never has. His ambition to run for Ireland seems to be a result of an argument with UKA. Based on that info (if it's inaccurate, please tell me) I think it's a joke him running for Ireland.

Maybe someday we can win a medal at the World Cross with no athletes that live (or ever have lived) in Ireland like Qatar. Wouldn't that be a joyous occasion?

ecoli

ss43 wrote: »

I don't really see how if you are born somewhere and grow up in that place and continue to live in that place, you can claim to be from somewhere else.
Do you mind if they switch between the two then - it would seem that he was happy enough with the UK until he had the row with UKA. What happens if he has a row with the AAI, will he become British again? (all assuming the bit about the row posted here is true of course)



I presume by Sudansese you mean Somali and are talking about Mo Farah and Mustafa Mohamed. Both left Somalia when they were 11 which means both have lived longer in Europe than Africa. Farah talks with an english accent and started running there. It's reasonable that he should run for britain and compete in European championships. Not sure how much running Mustafa did before leaving but he represented Sweden as a junior. Don't see any problems there either.

Alemayehu Bezabeh moved to Spain from Ethiopia when he was 17 or 18, lives there currently and never ran for another country. I'd see that as a grey area as he was born and raised in one country but chose to make a life for himself in another.

The South African running for us never lived here, ran for SA as a junior and decided to run for Ireland because of problems he had with the South African federation. That takes away the point in having team or regional competitions IMO.

Chris Cariss seems to be quite similar in that he wasn't born here, he doesn't live here and he never has. His ambition to run for Ireland seems to be a result of an argument with UKA. Based on that info (if it's inaccurate, please tell me) I think it's a joke him running for Ireland.

Maybe someday we can win a medal at the World Cross with no athletes that live (or ever have lived) in Ireland like Qatar. Wouldn't that be a joyous occasion?

Apologies you right there haha my trivia in recent days has been completely off and my information completely off. Bit sleep deprived watching the NCAAs haha

thirtyfoot

ss43 wrote: »

I don't really see how if you are born somewhere and grow up in that place and continue to live in that place, you can claim to be from somewhere else.

I would love to see the following, I don't know maybe at nationals when he is around. Colin Quirke is our top thrower right now and a future Olympian no doubt. He was born and reared in the US. He competes for Ireland. I would love to see ss43 tell Colin he isn't really Irish and should compete for the US, like face to face. It would probably be very ugly:D. It would be even uglier if his dad Paul overheard the conversation:D:D.

This is an example of the diaspora that Hardworker speaks of. Its not black and white. Each case must be looked at individually and the motivations of the athlete understood otherwise you are making massive presumptions. This isn't a Qatar or Bahrain situation. Ireland aren't going actively seeking athletes with promise of riches and fame. You need to be world class to get any grant of significance and sponsorship here has bombed.

Have you spoken to Cariss about his motivations? I guess not. There are examples where switching allegiance is dubious but Cragg for example has proven with his running and talking off track that he is committed to Ireland. I lost out on 3 Europa Cup spots down through the years due to 'non-irish' athletes. An american and a Brit and each case was fair enough and I understood why they wanted to run for Ireland and respected it. It also raised the bar of my event and that helped all other athletes.

There are cases where some underage 'non-irish' guys or gals are brought on teams at the expense of domestic kids and this I am not sure of but again it would need to be looked at in a case by case basis.

Still laughing in my head at the thought of the Quirkes being told that the chip off the old block shouldn't compete for Ireland:D:D:D

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

There are examples where switching allegiance is dubious but Cragg for example has proven with his running and talking off track that he is committed to Ireland.

Nonsense. You think if Cragg fell out with the AAI he wouldn't go run for the US? Cragg and Shaheen run for Ireland and Qatar respectively. There is very little distinguishable difference between their situations. I can see that both of them probably had their reasons but that's no reason for any Irish or Qatari person to be happy about the colour vest they wear.

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

Nonsense. You think if Cragg fell out with the AAI he wouldn't go run for the US? Cragg and Shaheen run for Ireland and Qatar respectively. There is very little distinguishable difference between their situations. I can see that both of them probably had their reasons but that's no reason for any Irish or Qatari person to be happy about the colour vest they wear.

Fair enough, thats your opinion. I differ. Cragg still runs for Ireland and will raise a tricolour if he ever wins a medal again. That'll do for me in his case.

Can I ask you do you propose a blanket ban on all 'non-irish' athletes competing for us? Quirke for example, are you ok with that?

thirtyfoot

Hard Worker wrote: »

I think we've strayed a bit from the OP.
If Martin Fagan were to run in the next European Marathon Championship, I think we could have good back up with two or three from Vinny Mulvey, Joe McAlister, Chris Cariss and a few more who might move up to the marathon. We have plenty capable of running sub 2.18 if they put their minds to it.

Yeah, I'll create a separate thread on the other topic.

Hard Worker

cfitz wrote: »

Nonsense. You think if Cragg fell out with the AAI he wouldn't go run for the US? Cragg and Shaheen run for Ireland and Qatar respectively. There is very little distinguishable difference between their situations. I can see that both of them probably had their reasons but that's no reason for any Irish or Qatari person to be happy about the colour vest they wear.

No comparison. Shaheen switched for purely financial reasons. He didn't have a granny from Qatar. Cragg, on the other hand didn't get a million dollars for switching to Ireland - and his ancestors are from Cork.

cfitz

Hard Worker wrote: »

No comparison. Shaheen switched for purely financial reasons. He didn't have a granny from Qatar. Cragg, on the other hand didn't get a million dollars for switching to Ireland - and his ancestors are from Cork.

To my knowledge, both of them switched because they were unhappy with their respective native country's associations. Please point me to information that says otherwise.

cfitz

Tingle wrote: »

Fair enough, thats your opinion. I differ. Cragg still runs for Ireland and will raise a tricolour if he ever wins a medal again. That'll do for me in his case.

Can I ask you do you propose a blanket ban on all 'non-irish' athletes competing for us? Quirke for example, are you ok with that?

In my opinion,

Parentage stuff is nonsense, everyone could run for wherever the human race began by that silly logic. There are always grey areas so I think the best solution would be that you are not allowed to switch allegiance once you reach junior ranks:

As a junior/senior, you can run for your country of birth or country of residence or as unattached.
Once you have represented one country (as a junior or senior) then your only option is to either continue competing for that country or else run anattached.


I'm sure there would be some difficulties with setting up this unattached category but in my opinion, it's the best solution.

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

I think the best solution would be that you are not allowed to switch allegiance once you reach junior ranks:


.

I think that makes sense and I would agree with that. Table Tennis has huge problems with Chineese players representing nearly every country in the world. They have brought in a similar rule as you suggest I think.

This would get rid of the Qatar/Bahrain issue as that is the main problem unless they chased the Kenyans when younger. Also the African nations are trying to stop the French from 'stealing' all their young footballers.

Running Bing

Whether an athlete grew up in the rift valley, Bradford or Tazmania I would'nt have a problem with them representing Ireland as long as *Ireland is the country they really want to represent*.

For example Tingle mentioned Colin Quirke and in that situation I dont think there is one solitary thing wrong with that. He is obviously proud of his Irish heritage and wants to represent the country.

However it never sits easy with me when I see an athlete, in any sport, competing for a country that they have no real allegiance to. The most obvious example is football. I read in the paper the other day how Trapatoni is trying to convince Jamie O'Hara, Mark Noble and Anton Ferdinand to play for Ireland. Now they are all handy players but given the choice between playing for England or Ireland would they really choose Ireland? No, they just are'nt good enough to play for England.

The African athletes representing Bahrain and Qatar is a similar story imo. I think it absolutely stinks and I can't get behind it at all.

horsebox20

NO

limerickleader

Oh man I'm getting serious flashbacks to a sports law essay I wrote on this topic back in college...I'll have to dig it out and regurgitate it.

I guess one problem is that definitions of "nationality", "citizenship" and "eligibility" vary so much across sports and states and there are no uniform rules applicable.

Who defines "non-Irish"? The sports governing body, in this case, the IAAF or the Irish people? Article 2 of our consitution states that the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage. Should that not dictate on who is Irish, especially when it comes to diaspora like Cragg? Whatever his motives were in switching from South Africa, he was entitled to Irish citizenship and an Irish passport.

In comparison, I do think the Qatari actions have been particularly unimpressive. Stephen Cherono/Saif Shaheen switching to Qatar based solely on financial reasons was wrong - thankfully we haven't seen him prosper at an Olympics thus far although he will probably still be around for the steeplechase in London.

ss43

Tingle wrote: »

I would love to see the following...ss43 tell Colin he isn't really Irish and should compete for the US, like face to face. It would probably be very ugly:D. It would be even uglier if his dad Paul overheard the conversation:D:D.

Have you spoken to Cariss about his motivations? I guess not. There are examples where switching allegiance is dubious but Cragg for example has proven with his running and talking off track that he is committed to Ireland.

Still laughing in my head at the thought of the Quirkes being told that the chip off the old block shouldn't compete for Ireland:D:D:D

On the basis of what you just said, I probably won't say it to them as I don't fancy having to use my phenomenal strength in teaching them a lesson when they attack me.

I would be very interested in hearing his views on it though. I don't want to bring the sport into disrepute by battering them though.

I haven't spoken to Cariss and I did mention in my posts that they were open to correction. My opinion is fair based on the info I'm going on, if the info changes, my opinion might also. None of it has been contradicted yet though so I think it's fairly accurate.

How has Cragg proven his commitment to Ireland?

Hard Worker wrote: »

No comparison. Shaheen switched for purely financial reasons. He didn't have a granny from Qatar. Cragg, on the other hand didn't get a million dollars for switching to Ireland - and his ancestors are from Cork.

Shaheen said recently he didn't do it for money. His coach said he did it so he could be the best. Running under Athletics Kenya didn't lend itself to him reaching his full potential so he went to Qatar.

Cragg, as far as I know, had a problem with running all the races his federation wanted him to run in South Africa, so he left to pursue his career elsewhere.

Both, it would seem, are quite similar; they left their native countries to pursue their athletic goals in a country more conducive to it. I understand why they would want to do it but it doesn't make me think they are Irish or Qatari for it - in my view, they're stil African.

thirtyfoot

ss43 wrote: »

How has Cragg proven his commitment to Ireland?

.

See this is where its opinion and what you regard as being Irish. Wearing a green vest in two olympic finals is enough for me. He has said he does appreciate his connection to Ireland and he wants to do well for Ireland and for all the people who have supported him in Ireland. He is not a mercenary now despite what you may think of his intentions earlier, he is very much an 'irish' athlete in my eyes and I can relate to him as Irish when I see him compete.

Hard Worker

ss43 wrote: »

( 1 ) I don't really see how if you are born somewhere and grow up in that place and continue to live in that place, you can claim to be from somewhere else.

( 2 ) Do you mind if they switch between the two then - it would seem that he was happy enough with the UK until he had the row with UKA. ( 3 ) What happens if he has a row with the AAI, will he become British again? (all assuming the bit about the row posted here is true of course)



Chris Cariss seems to be quite similar in that he wasn't born here, he doesn't live here and he never has. His ambition to run for Ireland seems to be a result of an argument with UKA. Based on that info (if it's inaccurate, please tell me) I think it's a joke him running for Ireland.

Maybe someday we can win a medal at the World Cross with no athletes that live (or ever have lived) in Ireland like Qatar. Wouldn't that be a joyous occasion?

( 1 ) Chris Cariss was born in Bradford and never claimed to be from anywhere else.
( 2 ) He was obviously happy with UKA until he had a barney with them - that's self explanatory. He made the switch after serving the proper time in limbo. He has dual nationality, and was quite entitled to do so. I have no problem with that, as I have already mentioned. I also have no problem with people who have a problem with it.
( 3 ) If he has a row with the AAI, he won't become British AGAIN, because he already is British ( as pointed out, he has dual nationality ). However, if he competes for Ireland and wishes to again change allegiances, he will have to serve the correct time in limbo, subject to both Associations agreeing to it.
Knowing Chris, he won't be running for Britain again.
My opinion is not biased because I know Chris. I'm also involved in football and remember Packie Bonner making the point that his son would always be Irish even though he was born and reared in Glasgow.

cfitz

Hard Worker wrote: »

( 1 ) Chris Cariss was born in Bradford and never claimed to be from anywhere else.
( 2 ) He was obviously happy with UKA until he had a barney with them - that's self explanatory. He made the switch after serving the proper time in limbo. He has dual nationality, and was quite entitled to do so. I have no problem with that, as I have already mentioned. I also have no problem with people who have a problem with it.
( 3 ) If he has a row with the AAI, he won't become British AGAIN, because he already is British ( as pointed out, he has dual nationality ). However, if he competes for Ireland and wishes to again change allegiances, he will have to serve the correct time in limbo, subject to both Associations agreeing to it.

I don't think anyone was questioning the legality of the move. Moreso the possible need for a change in the rules.

nerraw1111

No hard and fast rules as how do you define who is Irish.

But an athlete switching nationalities because of a row with an athletics body is taking the piss.

That athlete benefitted from a superior athletics program in the UK while the Irish athlete he pushed out struggled with rubbish facilities. It’s a disgrace.He’s not running for the Irish flag and would take no pleasure in wearing the Irish colours. It’s a business decision at the end of day.

Running for Ireland should not be a second choice which has often been the case for Irish soccer.

thirtyfoot

nerraw1111 wrote: »

But an athlete switching nationalities because of a row with an athletics body is taking the piss.

That athlete benefitted from a superior athletics program in the UK while the Irish athlete he pushed out struggled with rubbish facilities. It’s a disgrace.He’s not running for the Irish flag and would take no pleasure in wearing the Irish colours. It’s a business decision at the end of day.

I presume this is in relation to Chris Cariss.

Couple of points:

1 - He probably didn't benefit from a superior athletics program as they complained in the UK of structures as much as us when he would have been in the UK 'setup'. The UK 'setup' he was in I'd imagine was very much the same as ours.

2 - He pushed no Irish athlete off a team as he has never run for Ireland internationally, ie, on an Irish team. He ran as an individual from Ireland same as you would run in the London or hamburg marathon.

3 - As regard a business decicion, he didn't or never will make any money for changing allegiance to Ireland unless he can run maybe 2:10 or 2:11 which is unlikely. If he does run 2:10 or 2:11 he may get €6k of tax payers money based on his age if he is lucky.

Hard Worker

nerraw1111 wrote: »

No hard and fast rules as how do you define who is Irish.

But an athlete switching nationalities because of a row with an athletics body is taking the piss.

That athlete benefitted from a superior athletics program in the UK while the Irish athlete he pushed out struggled with rubbish facilities. It’s a disgrace.He’s not running for the Irish flag and would take no pleasure in wearing the Irish colours. It’s a business decision at the end of day.

Running for Ireland should not be a second choice which has often been the case for Irish soccer.

I'd just like to correct a couple of points assuming you are talking about Chris Cariss:
He hasn't switched nationalities as he has dual nationality. He has, however, switched allegiance from UK to Ireland for athletic purposes.
...."He's not running for the Irish flag and would take no pleasure in wearing the Irish colours".... I don't know how you think that. It's not the case and there is no evidence of that being the case. If Chris runs a qualifying time for the European Championship, and is selected, he will wear the singlet with pride. He can't wait for the day.
As Tingle has pointed out, Chris Cariss has received nothing from the Irish taxpayer or AAI as he is not of a certain standard.
The children of people who emigrated from here in the 60's and 70's because they couldn't get work, have every right to represent their country. There's nothing new here anyway. It happens in other sports.

TheRoadRunner

I have no problems with non Irish born (as in born in the state etc) athletes representing Ireland including those mentioned above.


However ................................. I'm a bit of a hypocrite. For example when Mary Cullen finished 4th in the euro XC I was raging about Kibet of Holland who won the race as in my opinion Mary was the 3rd European in the race ! Similarly when she got third in the indoors I looked at Bekele of Turkey and said to myself, "Mary was actually 2nd European".

So in conclusion I don't know what my stance is

RoyMcC

Strangely enough there's a similar, and fairly heated, debate going over on the cricket forum. (I suspect not many of you guys head over that way too often ).

I have dual Irish/Brit nationality. It is most certainly the case in GB that the athletes themselves welcome those that switch allegiance. At the elite level it is seen as welcome competition and an opportunity to 'raise the bar'. I suspect that - if you asked the Irish elite athletes, they would say exactly the same. Even if it does mean they might miss out on international selection.

The only furore that I recall was over Zola Budd, and that was because the whole thing was a publicity and money-making stunt at the height of the apartheid controversy.

If Kate Reed was to declare for Ireland (as has been mooted in some quarters) and started producing good results in a green vest, would she be lauded or criticised?

robinph

Ireland is not exactly overrun with top level athletes, so if anyone comes along already at a decent level to compete and Ireland has not had to spend the money to get them to that level then everyones a winner. They are not putting any "genuine" Irish competitor out of a position, because there is no one there anyway, the AAI or whoever have not had to worry about developing them to that level, they do then appear in green in various competitions though, raise the profile of the sport and hopefully then generate more interest in Ireland to then produce some home grown talent in years to come... maybe.

RoyMcC wrote: »

The only furore that I recall was over Zola Budd, and that was because the whole thing was a publicity and money-making stunt at the height of the apartheid controversy.

...and that no shoe manufacturers could sign her up for sponsorship.

ChickenTikka

I think its fine for the child of an Irish person to compete for Ireland. I know if I lived abroad and my kids had the talent, I'd love them to compete for Ireland.

But I agree fully with the comments that once someone competes for a country at junior level, that they can't change after that. If a person was genuine about their Irishness, they'd have started competing for Ireland as early as possible.

Re Cragg, I think its a combination of circumstances rather than a genuine Irishness. I suspect his Irish coach had a positive influence on his decision. Re Quirke, that's an entirely different situation and the guy is 200% entitled to compete for Ireland.

--amadeus--

I would consider myself a patriotic Irish man (grew up in Donegal during the hunger strikes) but if someone from the UAE or wherever came along and offered me the chance to be paid to run as a full time athlete and so reach my full personal potential in return for wearing thier country colours I wouldn't think twice. You only get one shot so you might as well make the most of it and I can't blame any athlete who switches allegiance to make the most of themselves. And as Robin says it's not like any of them are depriving Irish athletes of places or funds.

Racing Flat

robinph wrote: »

if anyone comes along already at a decent level to compete ........ then everyones a winner. They are not putting any "genuine" Irish competitor out of a position, because there is no one there anyway,

--amadeus-- wrote: »

And as Robin says it's not like any of them are depriving Irish athletes of places or funds.

How are they not depriving Irish athletes of places? e.g. selection for some International XC competitions is first 3 across the line in the Intercounties and 3 wild cards. If a Kenyan switches allegiance, runs the Intercounties and comes 3rd, does he not deprive the 4th person on the day the chance to run for Ireland at that time?

And going down to club level, if a club brings in a ringer, I don't think it's right if someone who has trained and competed for the club all year, turning out in all competitions suddenly gets dropped from the team for the main competition or maybe does not get a team medal as they are now pushed out to 5th scorer. Now they may not have won the team medal without the ringer anyhow, but I'd rather not win the team medal and be loyal to the active club members rather than win a medal with a ringer. This use of ringers is short-sighted, can cause disillusionment, but happens, unfortunately in many team sports.

Now I've no problem with anyone joining any club, and at the end of the day, if someone rings a club secretary asking if they can join the club, or the AI ring a club secretary and ask if a runner can join the club, the club is probably morally obliged to say yes, but maybe I'm old fashioned in thinking that perhaps you should have to serve your time - be a member for a year or so before you can represent the club at National level, so that those slogging it out for years don't get screwed over all of a sudden.

I don't want to confuse those sentiments with the disapora issue. I have completely changed my view of this. When reports came out that Roy Keane allegedly retorted to Mick McCarthy 'And you're not even Irish, you English c*nt' or something to that effect, I probably at the time thought 'Well said Roy' (Well the biggest news story in Irish history was quite a passionate, emotional affair ). However, having learned more about it...having a wife born in the UK to Irish parents (emigrated at 5 years of age in the 1950s as their parents went to work on the motorways), she experienced a totally 'Irish' upbringing in the middle of England, Irish gatherings, sing songs, cheilis etc as her family fought to maintain their Irishness. So in school they wrere known as the Irish ones (even though her parents had not been in Ireland since the age of 5) but when she came here everyone called her English. So the curse of dual nationality, a sort of limbo situation. Mick McCarthy and many more I'm sure went through the same thing. Live in England, sound English, appear English, but everyone knows you as Irish. So such people have every right to run for Ireland IMO. But there is a difference with that and the likes of Vinny Jones searching for an Irish grandmother at 30 years of age, and in the process discovering that she was actually Welsh and so playing for Wales! As a matter of interest I'd love to know if Roy considers his own kids Irish, English, or both now! But the diaspora situation can be quite tough on the person - feel a bit homeless.

Finally in relation to Shaheen the steeplechaser, did Jerry Kiernan not say during the last Olympics that he was getting paid 1000 US dollars a month for life from Qatar for running for them. Seemed to me like a tiny amount of money for what they were getting, but Jerry seemed to say that in relative terms it was enough to secure his family for life at home, so he couldn't turn it down. If true (and I find hard to believe it is) it does make you think about cfitz flippant point about giving Kenya all our athletics grant money - for 12,000 a year you could have an Olympic gold medallist, obviously not the way forward.

Another thing I don't understand is this sentiment that was about around the last Olympics - 'why not get people cycling where we might be competitive for Olympic medals'. What's the point of trying to get people to do a sport purely for Olympic success and not because they like it or it comes natural to them? And I think there is a case here where a top rower is being 'converted' to a cyclist in an attempt to get into the Olympics as her rowing event is not an Olympic event. I can't understand this.

--amadeus--

Excellent post

RoyMcC

Top post RF. Don't agree with all of it, but top post nonetheless.

nerraw1111

I've no problem with anyone declaring for Ireland through their heritage, it's only right and fair.

However, it's the switching of countries that annoys me. Particularly if the only reason you switched is because of a row...if that's the actual reason.

Unless he's running in a category where no Irish athlete wants to compete for Ireland, I can't see how he's not depriving an Irish athlete of place?

Irishathlete_1

Following on from RF's post before, let me throw something out there.

Irish football was pathetic until the mid/late 80's when Jack Charlton came onboard and brought the likes of Houghton, Cascarino, Aldridge etc etc with him under the "granny rule". Now, up to that time Ireland was producing a hand full of world class footballers (Charlie Hurley, Liam Brady et al), but they did not have the quality in depth to inspire whole generations of Irish footballers.

I see Ireland beating England in Euro 88 as a defining moment in not just Irish sport, but in Irish society. Over the 8 years that followed, the nation wanted more and more and to eat at a higher table, all through Jack and his team. It gave Irish people the belief that actually they could take on the world and be competitive. This belief came from a team that was 70% british by birth. When you look at Trapatoni's team who drew with Italy and are on their way to qualifying for SA 2010, his first choice 11 is probably 80-90% Irish by birth.

So, here is a situation for debate.

AAI goes out and recruits US/GB/AUS/SA athletes in the short term, who are eligible through the "granny rule", which meant Ireland sent a full and competitive team to Euros/Worlds/Olympics between 2012-2016 and they came back with medals inspiring young people in Ireland to choose running over GAA/football etc.... This success in turn re-ignites interest with the masses in running and then in 2024/2028 Ireland had a full complement of Irish born athletes who were competitive and winning medals at the Olympics.

Would this end justify the means?

I don't want this to turn into a discussion on facilities, coaching etc....as that is a chicken and egg situation. It has worked for football, and to an extent rugby, so would it work for athletics?

RealistSpy

Should 'non-irish' athletes be allowed compete for Ireland?

Yes, if they have an Irish citizenship, grounds to remain in the state or by heritage/blood. I don't think switching between countries is right well for internation competitions.

This also brings in a question. What if this athlete trains in a country that he/she doesn't compet for. Won't the coache get a bit annoyed?

ecoli

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

Following on from RF's post before, let me throw something out there.

Irish football was pathetic until the mid/late 80's when Jack Charlton came onboard and brought the likes of Houghton, Cascarino, Aldridge etc etc with him under the "granny rule". Now, up to that time Ireland was producing a hand full of world class footballers (Charlie Hurley, Liam Brady et al), but they did not have the quality in depth to inspire whole generations of Irish footballers.

I see Ireland beating England in Euro 88 as a defining moment in not just Irish sport, but in Irish society. Over the 8 years that followed, the nation wanted more and more and to eat at a higher table, all through Jack and his team. It gave Irish people the belief that actually they could take on the world and be competitive. This belief came from a team that was 70% british by birth. When you look at Trapatoni's team who drew with Italy and are on their way to qualifying for SA 2010, his first choice 11 is probably 80-90% Irish by birth.

So, here is a situation for debate.

AAI goes out and recruits US/GB/AUS/SA athletes in the short term, who are eligible through the "granny rule", which meant Ireland sent a full and competitive team to Euros/Worlds/Olympics between 2012-2016 and they came back with medals inspiring young people in Ireland to choose running over GAA/football etc.... This success in turn re-ignites interest with the masses in running and then in 2024/2028 Ireland had a full complement of Irish born athletes who were competitive and winning medals at the Olympics.

Would this end justify the means?

I don't want this to turn into a discussion on facilities, coaching etc....as that is a chicken and egg situation. It has worked for football, and to an extent rugby, so would it work for athletics?

Very valid point reiterating the fact that greater competition for places on national side can only help to improve the standard and encourage younger athletes to stick with the sport

Racing Flat

ecoli wrote: »

Very valid point reiterating the fact that greater competition for places on national side can only help to improve the standard and encourage younger athletes to stick with the sport

What would inspire you more to train harder and try and improve further:

1) coming 4th in the Intercounties because of this extra competition from 'non-Irish' and not getting to go to the Europeans

2) coming 3rd due to less competition and going to the Europeans and running in a race with Fagan, Farah, Lebid et al and coming 70th.

Would you train harder after the first instance to make sure you get in the top 3 the next year? Or would you train harder after the 2nd instance to try and get in the top 50 in Europe the next year?


Both instances could motivate. At the same time both could demotivate. The 1st instance might lead to disillusionment and quitting, the 2nd instance might lead to resting on your laurels, you've got the green vest, no need to push on from there.

Irishathlete_1

In all honesty RF, if an athlete can't get themselves motivated to push for a place on a team when they are ranked 4th/5th etc...., then I'd have to question their mental prep and what their goals were as athletes.

plodder

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

I see Ireland beating England in Euro 88 as a defining moment in not just Irish sport, but in Irish society.

Timely reminder of Euro'88. The England game was 21 years ago yesterday.

I think bringing in those players worked for football because in a way, it's all about the team, rather than the individuals on it. Also, we are well used to all our players living in the UK, regardless of where they came from originally. When you look at the players you mentioned above, all of them are still quite well connected with the country, and nobody would question their "Irishness".

I think it would be harder for people to connect with individual foreign athletes. Not saying it wouldn't work, but it would be harder.

ecoli

Racing Flat wrote: »

What would inspire you more to train harder and try and improve further:

1) coming 4th in the Intercounties because of this extra competition from 'non-Irish' and not getting to go to the Europeans

2) coming 3rd due to less competition and going to the Europeans and running in a race with Fagan, Farah, Lebid et al and coming 70th.

Would you train harder after the first instance to make sure you get in the top 3 the next year? Or would you train harder after the 2nd instance to try and get in the top 50 in Europe the next year?


Both instances could motivate. At the same time both could demotivate. The 1st instance might lead to disillusionment and quitting, the 2nd instance might lead to resting on your laurels, you've got the green vest, no need to push on from there.

In terms of encouraging people to run which would encourage more kids into the sport watching 8 to ten people battling there hardest to make the team and earn their green vest in the inter counties
or watching same people make team every year and if injury to one the big names means team wrote off.
I can see where you are coming from but i feel that people with a competitive nature will work harder after the first instance and it is this characteristic that is needed to compete at top levels of any sport

cfitz

Maybe this is what Bahrain and Qatar are trying to do - bring in top athletes to inspire their youngsters, yet it seems to be ok to hate them...

ecoli

cfitz wrote: »

Maybe this is what Bahrain and Qatar are trying to do - bring in top athletes to inspire their youngsters, yet it seems to be ok to hate them...

The fianacial factors for these countries are too much in these countries to justify any sort of allegency from these athletes and as such have created a polar opposite affect.

Irishathlete_1

I think the Bahrain/Qatar argument is a silly one. As they have done with Man City etc...they are doing this to push the brand of their country abroad. There is no history of mass participation in sports in middle eastern (especially emerati) nations. They are investing in athletes in the same way they would do when sponsoring the GAA etc.....