Lions vrs Western Province

dragon_lordMTB

British & Irish Lions:
15 Rob Kearney (Leinster/Ireland)
14 Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Ireland)
13 Keith Earls (Munster/Ireland)
12 Riki Flutey (London Wasps/England)
11 Ugo Monye (Harlequins/England)
10 Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales)
9 Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers/England)
8 Andy Powell (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
7 Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
6 Joe Worsley (London Wasps/England)
5 Nathan Hines (Perpignan/Scotland)
4 Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster/Ireland)
3 Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England)
2 Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales)
1 Andrew Sheridan (Sale Sharks/England)

Replacements: 16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh/Scotland), 17 Euan Murray (Northampton/Scotland), 18 Simon Shaw (London Wasps/England), 19 Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers/England), 20 Mike Blair (Edinburgh/Scotland), 21 James Hook (Ospreys/Wales), 22 Gordon D'Arcy (Leinster/Ireland)

Trojan

Are they going to let D'Arcy have a chance at all? Really disappointed he's not starting.

spoon

I don't see this going too well with that pack. Williams is the only one who seems capable of making an impact in the back row.

budhabob

spoon wrote: »

I don't see this going too well with that pack. Williams is the only one who seems capable of making an impact in the back row.

ya, it is a bit of a worry alright. and could be yellow cards gallore with the second rows.

dragon_lordMTB

Powell and Worsley will not exactly give us go forward ball. Not enough dynamic clearers once Powell goes to ground and will get turned over.

Strong front row though.

toomevara

Vickery to captain. Interesting Squad. Think Geech is a canny operator, Flutey/Earls...I like it

accensi0n

Trojan wrote: »

Are they going to let D'Arcy have a chance at all? Really disappointed he's not starting.

Flutey hasn't started yet either. He was the better 12 in the six nations than darcy and he was part of the original squad and darcy wasn't.

spoon

Flutey and Earls should compliment each other pretty well if they get some ball.

thomond2006

dragon_lordMTB wrote: »

British & Irish Lions:
15 Rob Kearney (Leinster/Ireland)
14 Tommy Bowe (Ospreys/Ireland)
13 Keith Earls (Munster/Ireland)
12 Riki Flutey (London Wasps/England)
11 Ugo Monye (Harlequins/England)
10 Stephen Jones (Scarlets/Wales)
9 Harry Ellis (Leicester Tigers/England)
8 Andy Powell (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
7 Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues/Wales)
6 Joe Worsley (London Wasps/England)
5 Nathan Hines (Perpignan/Scotland)
4 Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster/Ireland)
3 Phil Vickery (London Wasps/England)
2 Matthew Rees (Scarlets/Wales)
1 Andrew Sheridan (Sale Sharks/England)

The only shoe in this XV for the test team is Bowe imo.

With their versatility Earls and Kearney are fighting for a place on the bench for the 1st test.

I believe the players in bold need a big game to prove they are good enough for a test spot, especially Hines and DOC. Also, I'm still not convinced about Stephen Jones.

I'm really surprised Geech didn't play DOC and POC to see if their Munster/Ireland partnership could work as well for the Lions.

On his day, Flutey is a good player at 12 but Roberts along with Heaslip has been player of the tour so far.

I can't believe Powell is getting another chance. It's just stupid. The guy has not got two brain cells to rub together. I would have Ryan Jones instead, even though he is totally off form.

I'm worried about the lineout for this game. Rees is beyond sh1te and Ford on the bench isn't much better. Why didn't he bring Best instead?

If Amabokke is around, how good are Western Province?

danthefan

To be honest I'm not mad about how McGeechan has selected his sides so far. Some players have really just not gotten a fair crack of the whip, Euan Murray being a prime example. Of the 5 games so far I think he has 1 start, definitely has less gametime than all the other props anyway. How is he meant to challenge for a test spot either from the bench or playing 2 games (including a test) in a week?

Trojan

accensi0n wrote: »

Flutey hasn't started yet either. He was the better 12 in the six nations than darcy and he was part of the original squad and darcy wasn't.

True enough, I just checked. Flutey only got 11 & 16 minutes in his 2 appearances, so less than a half of a game. I'm just very disappointed for D'arcy, I'd love to see him fight Roberts for the spot.

danthefan

Trojan wrote: »

True enough, I just checked. Flutey only got 11 & 16 minutes in his 2 appearances, so less than a half of a game. I'm just very disappointed for D'arcy, I'd love to see him fight Roberts for the spot.

He was called up way too late, and by the time he got there I think McGeechan realised Flutey still had no gametime. I'd have considered him at 13 for this game because if BOD goes down I'd be a hell of a lot more comfortable with D'Arcy in then Earls.

buck65

I wouldn't

Amabokke

Well, for starters Burger is out for first Lions test and Danie Rossouw is his replacement (better option for lineout) so the breakdown will probably now be even out with Ferris gone too.

WP is better than Cheetahs but worse than Sharks when both teams have all their bok players. Good few individual players but as a unit they've been struggling for past few years. Last time WP was a fearsome team was when Schalk Burger Snr played for them in the 80s.

WP backline not too bad but I think their forwards especially front row will struggle. We will win the breakdown as Luke Watson and Vermeulen are excellent fetchers. Vermeulen very similar game style to Brussouw. Watson very good at getting over advantage line and only reason why he is not in bok team is because of his provocations.

Peter Grant strong centre but alone wont' be up too much. Bobo can be good if he decides to show up - lazy git. Tonderai probably under 2 quickest players in SA but very 1-dimensional and without space and quickball can't do too much. Joe Pietersen will be one of the next 2 fullbacks for SA, very good young player - can kick, attack, catch and tackle.

Expect the Lions to win but not sure how comfortable. If Williams can fight the breakdown they'll be comfortable otherwise WP might just sneak pass them..

Western Province squad:
15. Joe Pietersen
14. Tonderai Chavhanga
13. Morgan Newman
12. Peter Grant
11. Gcobani Bobo
10. Willem De Waal
9, Dewaldt Duvenage
8. Luke Watson (captain)
7. Duane Vermeulen
6. Pieter Louw
5. Anton Van Zyl
4. Martin Muller
3. Brok Harris
2. Tiaan Liebenberg
1. Wicus Blaauw

Reserves: Hanyani Shimange, JD Moller, De Kock Steenkamp, Zandre Jordaan, Conrad Hoffmann, JJ Engelbrecht, Gio Aplon.

Crash

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm really surprised Geech didn't play DOC and POC to see if their Munster/Ireland partnership could work as well for the Lions.

I think POC would drop dead from exhaustion if you put him near a test team on Sat tbh.

d-gal

If Ellis gets the ball out quick enough that back line can do some serious damage...Bowe, Monye and Kearney, on their day they would beat anyone. Really excited about Earls and Flutey, reckon this is the midweek partnership, a really good mix.

Also no Ryan Jones?

spoon

d-gal wrote: »

If Ellis gets the ball out quick enough that back line can do some serious damage...Bowe, Monye and Kearney, on their day they would beat anyone. Really excited about Earls and Flutey, reckon this is the midweek partnership, a really good mix.

Also no Ryan Jones?

It's doubtful there will be quick ball i feel. Though Jones should be good at getting that back line moving when he gets the ball.

gav86

D'arcy could still hit a bit of form, he was coming back from a very serious injury which put him out for nearly a year and could of ended his career. Earls is a very exciting player but i wouldnt have him in the centre (just my opinion. WP as far as I know are a good team and have been boosted by some players getting over injury so you would be worried with probably the weakest lions team yet

danthefan

gav86 wrote: »

D'arcy could still hit a bit of form, he was coming back from a very serious injury which put him out for nearly a year and could of ended his career. Earls is a very exciting player but i wouldnt have him in the centre (just my opinion. WP as far as I know are a good team and have been boosted by some players getting over injury so you would be worried with probably the weakest lions team yet

Nah too late for D'Arcy, think it's apparent the management aren't making any plans for the tests that include him.

Dev7

Flutey deserves his start, Darcy and R Jones shud start v Southern Kings to push their case for 2nd Test inclusion

gav86

danthefan wrote: »

Nah too late for D'Arcy, think it's apparent the management aren't making any plans for the tests that include him.

Suppose when he wasnt in the origional squad, you'd wonder why they bothered calling him out. They keep giving S.Williams a chance!!

danthefan

gav86 wrote: »

Suppose when he wasnt in the origional squad, you'd wonder why they bothered calling him out. They keep giving S.Williams a chance!!

He's there as cover only. If everyone stay fit he'll have a nice holiday but that's about it. If the first 2 tests are lost he might get a token cap in the 3rd. I'd be of the opinion this is poor use of one of the best centres in Europe just off a very successful season but there you go.

TarfHead

danthefan wrote: »

Nah too late for D'Arcy, think it's apparent the management aren't making any plans for the tests that include him.

According to McGeechan, in the SKY build-up to the Natal game, the first test 22 will be picked on Tuesday evening. D'Arcy has tomorrow, plus possibly Tuesday to stake a claim. Plus Flutey's knee and Roberts' shoulder to add in to the mix. He could play some part in all 3 tests at this stage. Or none !

thomond2006

Amabokke wrote: »

Well, for starters Burger is out for first Lions test and Danie Rossouw is his replacement (better option for lineout) so the breakdown will probably now be even out with Ferris gone too.

WP is better than Cheetahs but worse than Sharks when both teams have all their bok players. Good few individual players but as a unit they've been struggling for past few years. Last time WP was a fearsome team was when Schalk Burger Snr played for them in the 80s.

WP backline not too bad but I think their forwards especially front row will struggle. We will win the breakdown as Luke Watson and Vermeulen are excellent fetchers. Vermeulen very similar game style to Brussouw. Watson very good at getting over advantage line and only reason why he is not in bok team is because of his provocations.

Peter Grant strong centre but alone wont' be up too much. Bobo can be good if he decides to show up - lazy git. Tonderai probably under 2 quickest players in SA but very 1-dimensional and without space and quickball can't do too much. Joe Pietersen will be one of the next 2 fullbacks for SA, very good young player - can kick, attack, catch and tackle.

Expect the Lions to win but not sure how comfortable. If Williams can fight the breakdown they'll be comfortable otherwise WP might just sneak pass them..

Western Province squad:
15. Joe Pietersen
14. Tonderai Chavhanga
13. Morgan Newman
12. Peter Grant
11. Gcobani Bobo
10. Willem De Waal
9, Dewaldt Duvenage
8. Luke Watson (captain)
7. Duane Vermeulen
6. Pieter Louw
5. Anton Van Zyl
4. Martin Muller
3. Brok Harris
2. Tiaan Liebenberg
1. Wicus Blaauw

Reserves: Hanyani Shimange, JD Moller, De Kock Steenkamp, Zandre Jordaan, Conrad Hoffmann, JJ Engelbrecht, Gio Aplon.

Thanks Amabokke, good insight.

10/11 for Lions -15 btw.

subfreq

I think it's only right that Flutey and Earls start in this game. They were named in the original squad. I have no doubt D'Arcy will start on Tuesday but I think Flutey will surprise a few people tomorrow. He has looked good in the very small chances he has been given so far and in combination with Earls could be electric.

danthefan

subfreq wrote: »

I think it's only right that Flutey and Earls start in this game. They were named in the original squad. I have no doubt D'Arcy will start on Tuesday but I think Flutey will surprise a few people tomorrow. He has looked good in the very small chances he has been given so far and in combination with Earls could be electric.

Not sure that's the right way to think about it really, it's not about individuals. To this point I think Earls has shown he isn't test match material, and to totally ignore the D'Arcy/BOD centre pairing makes no sense imo.

spoon

danthefan wrote: »

Not sure that's the right way to think about it really, it's not about individuals. To this point I think Earls has shown he isn't test match material, and to totally ignore the D'Arcy/BOD centre pairing makes no sense imo.

The D'Arcy/BOD center partnership doesn't need to be tried out in these matches, everyone knows already what it is capable of.
Earls hasn't looked out of his depth since the terrible first half he had in the very first game. A game in which noone looked wonderful, and I feel he's in with a shout at being named on the bench since he can cover a lot of the back line if needed.

TarfHead

danthefan wrote: »

to totally ignore the D'Arcy/BOD centre pairing makes no sense imo.

With Roberts and Flutey both fit for selection, D'Arcy won't be paired with BOD. To do so would be to admit that original selection was wrong. As a call-up, D'Arcy will get game time when those 2 are injured or being rested. And we should assume that BOD has played his last game for the Lions outside of the Tests.

ALH-06

Anyone else concerned at all about Earls' defensive game? I've seen him flop off a fair few tackles in the recent past. Most of this could be put down to inexperience, of course, but surely having a centre whose defensive ability is questionable is risky business against any SA team?

I would have preferred to see Darcy given game time at 13. He's got a shot at the test team still, but I don't think Earls does. And as someone mentioned before, if anything happens to BOD (god forbid), Darcy would be a very competent replacement. I wouldn't like to see Earls come on at 13 versus the Springboks!

Stev_o

Argh looks a bit dodgy for some reason...............oh wait now i can see it POWELL (PPYYLLLLEE). Thats a strong WP team with some very fast back three players. Peter Grant is also a handy player but is a better 10 then a 12.

Flutely is probably playing for a bench place. While Roberts has been outstanding i think the Lions have misused him. The fact is EVERYONE now knows what he is going to do and im afraid we could end up with another Wales vs England scenario with the Boks just phasing him out. Flutey being a more traditional 12 would probably be used if it all goes to sh1t with the gain line game.

anonymous_joe

I'm almost watching this wondering if Luke Watson is someone Leinster should sign. It's not like he'll make a South African WC squad after all...

Stev_o

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I'm almost watching this wondering if Luke Watson is someone Leinster should sign. It's not like he'll make a South African WC squad after all...

Im sure CJ would ram his boot through his head.

anonymous_joe

Stev_o wrote: »

Im sure CJ would ram his boot through his head.

Damn it. We've an Afrikaaner. ><

Amabokke

Luke Watson is a player you hate to play against and a player you would luv to play with. He always delivers and brings something good to the table.

I don't believe he is as good as Brussouw, Elsom, etc. but you can always count on him to deliver 100%.

One thing about him compared to other flankers/8th man is that he always push/pull the defender with his one arm, cross the advantage line and offloads with the other arm without going to ground.

If Leinster wants to sign him he would definitely deliver each game....but he might bring racism into it and supporters will get irritated.

anonymous_joe

Amabokke wrote: »

Luke Watson is a player you hate to play against and a player you would luv to play with. He always delivers and brings something good to the table.

I don't believe he is as good as Brussouw, Elsom, etc. but you can always count on him to deliver 100%.

One thing about him compared to other flankers/8th man is that he always push/pull the defender with his one arm, cross the advantage line and offloads with the other arm without going to ground.

If Leinster wants to sign him he would definitely deliver each game....but he might bring racism into it and supporters will get irritated.

I don't think we'd care as much tbh. Because your average Leinster fan would ignore any comments about the racial situation in South Africa. I saw the reception Lukey got from the Bulls fans so I can't imagine it being more of an issue here.

Also, yeah, given that he's one of the few class players whose not going to be in the WC squad...

Amabokke

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I don't think we'd care as much tbh. Because your average Leinster fan would ignore any comments about the racial situation in South Africa. I saw the reception Lukey got from the Bulls fans so I can't imagine it being more of an issue here.

Also, yeah, given that he's one of the few class players whose not going to be in the WC squad...

That's just your typical Afrikaner stereo type, we give that type of reception to everyone! We are all the same when it comes to rugby as it is probably the only bit of hope people have at the moment.

buck65

Amabokke wrote: »

That's just your typical Afrikaner stereo type, we give that type of reception to everyone! We are all the same when it comes to rugby as it is probably the only bit of hope people have at the moment.

What kind of reception did he get?

Amabokke

buck65 wrote: »

What kind of reception did he get?

At Loftus the crowd are always roaring, jeering, singing and just generally being loud. We intimidate the opposision (with above noise) when they play and they hate that.

Luke said in an interview he wanted to puke on the bok jersey. He also said that SA rugby is run by dutch men...supposed to be the Afrikaner boys (which is laughable as the Sarfu boss is coloured, minister is black and the coach is also coloured). When he played at Loftus the crowd jeered, roared and booed him everytime he got the ball but of cause he encouraged them by asking for more so they did.

Last year the Aussies complained that Loftus is too loud and the boers are annoying. So before the game the commentator asked in Afrikaans "not to booo or roar at them when they ran onto the pitch or kick at goal" - of course that's not what the crowd did and annoyed the hell out of the players.

I also believe that is part of the reason why the Bulls hammered the Chiefs as it puts you off your game.

You might think it's stupid but it goes hand in hand with tradition and culture and it's not done in a nasty or mean way...

davyjose

Amabokke wrote: »

I also believe that is part of the reason why the Bulls hammered the Chiefs as it puts you off your game.

You might think it's stupid but it goes hand in hand with tradition and culture and it's not done in a nasty or mean way...

I'd say it was mainly the altitude ... and simply being better, obviously </OT>

I've no problem with the opposing fans trying to be the 16th man, so to speak. Most other sports fans don't think twice about booing the other team. And I'm sure most players wouldn't (certainly shouldn't) be put off by it.

anonymous_joe

Amabokke wrote: »

That's just your typical Afrikaner stereo type, we give that type of reception to everyone! We are all the same when it comes to rugby as it is probably the only bit of hope people have at the moment.

His seemed stronger than most. :pac:

davyjose wrote: »

I'd say it was mainly the altitude ... and simply being better, obviously </OT>

I've no problem with the opposing fans trying to be the 16th man, so to speak. Most other sports fans don't think twice about booing the other team. And I'm sure most players wouldn't (certainly shouldn't) be put off by it.

I've only ever seen S14 or Currie Cup on telly, but the crowds tend not to be amazing. Other than a few notable exceptions (and the Bulls are one) stadiums aren't that packed or that loud from what I can tell. Kinda like the difference between Musgrave Park ten years ago for a HC game and the semi in Croke Park.

il gatto

I've been scanning places like Planet Rugby (for shame) and Silver Fern and there's alot of talk about Moyne getting the left wing for the tests due to his size and strenght. Lots of references to Fitz being small. I felt this was inaccurate so I checked it up on Wiki. Apparently Monye is 6'2" and 14st 6lb, whilst Fitz is 6'1" and 14 st 2lb. That's not a big enough difference to decide a test spot. Amazing the b@llocks that becomes received wisdom. And imo alot of Monye's "explosiveness" comes from just running hard and straight as his game is nowhere as rounded as Fitz's. I think Monye is a very good player, but I hope the coaches will look past the public perception when they're selecting the test team.

mikeruurds

il gatto wrote: »

I've been scanning places like Planet Rugby (for shame) and Silver Fern and there's alot of talk about Moyne getting the left wing for the tests due to his size and strenght. Lots of references to Fitz being small. I felt this was inaccurate so I checked it up on Wiki. Apparently Monye is 6'2" and 14st 6lb, whilst Fitz is 6'1" and 14 st 2lb. That's not a big enough difference to decide a test spot. Amazing the b@llocks that becomes received wisdom. And imo alot of Monye's "explosiveness" comes from just running hard and straight as his game is nowhere as rounded as Fitz's. I think Monye is a very good player, but I hope the coaches will look past the public perception when they're selecting the test team.

As a Saffa I hope that they pick Monye. I rate Fitz's skills and I think he'd pose more questions on the outside.

davyjose

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I've only ever seen S14 or Currie Cup on telly, but the crowds tend not to be amazing. Other than a few notable exceptions (and the Bulls are one) stadiums aren't that packed or that loud from what I can tell. Kinda like the difference between Musgrave Park ten years ago for a HC game and the semi in Croke Park.

Well the AB fans have been booing every kick Dupuy has taken (and he's taken them well) this morning - it's not SA, but maybe it's something you see more of in the SH.

You certainly wouldn't get it at Thomond Park.

NickNolte

il gatto wrote: »

I've been scanning places like Planet Rugby

I wouldn't do that. Unless you want to read opinion from some of the most vile, racist scumbags that rugby 'support' has to offer.

Suffice to say that Monye and Fitz are two very different players. I'd be happy to see either get the test place but, as mikeruurds said, I think Fitz would have the extra edge when it comes to breaking the Boks defence. Monye's got pace and physicality and is much more aggressive in defence than Fitz... I guess it just depends on what we need on the day. If we could create a Fitz/Monye hybrid, that would be perfect. Photoshop opportunity!

Jello

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/lions/2009/0613/blairm.html

Blair out of today's match, Williams called up.

GymJim

Jello wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/lions/2009/0613/blairm.html

Blair out of today's match, Williams called up.

Think this probably tells us a lot about the plans to still go with Shane Williams at 11. He's been in every squad now...they seem to be planning on flogging him until he gets a bit of form.

sock puppet

GymJim wrote: »

Think this probably tells us a lot about the plans to still go with Shane Williams at 11. He's been in every squad now...they seem to be planning on flogging him until he gets a bit of form.

He's the only remaining option at 9. They can't risk Phillips after he played on Wednesday.

funky penguin

Ha! Imagine if Williams came on and had an absolute blinder at 9!

Good that Flutey is starting, but I'd love to see D'arcy get at least 20 mins.

Micky Dolenz

What time is kick off?

swalsh

2pm Kick off

copacetic

il gatto wrote: »

Lots of references to Fitz being small. I felt this was inaccurate so I checked it up on Wiki. Apparently Monye is 6'2" and 14st 6lb, whilst Fitz is 6'1" and 14 st 2lb. That's not a big enough difference to decide a test spot. Amazing the b@llocks that becomes received wisdom.

Well I'm not sure if those stats are actually true but based on how they actually look Monye does look the much bigger man. He also tends to play like it too, generally looking to straighten up a lot more and break tackles whereas Fitz tends to look to slow up then sidestep. They are just different types of player but I certainly would have felt that Monye was a stone or so heavier and much more muscle that Fitz.