Homosexual Adoption opinions.

CaptainSkidmark

IM not sure if ye have spoken about this before and its being spoken about on another forum but i have come here to seek the opinions of others.

Do you think it should be aloud?

Dont get me wrong for the couple of course it would be a great thing.. but it would surely have a deep affect on the child's up bringing such as confusion or being bullied at school.

Victor

I think, like many things, its a matter of gently, gently.

Certainly, I think a case could be supported where one of the adults is a biological parent of the child.

hot2def

Seriously, what is the point of coming into the GLBT forum, and asking gravely if gay people should have rights?

I mean really, is there a purpose beyond causing a ruckus?


If you have a point of view on this, and clearly you do, then present your PROOF and let people support or refute it. Otherwise, stir the pot elsewhere....

Dr. Baltar

hot2def wrote: »

Seriously, what is the point of coming into the GLBT forum, and asking gravely if gay people should have rights?

I mean really, is there a purpose beyond causing a ruckus?


If you have a point of view on this, and clearly you do, then present your PROOF and let people support or refute it. Otherwise, stir the pot elsewhere....

Once again, defensive people. You'd swear the OP was all for forcing you to wear a pink triangle or something.
Calm it down!

I personally would have no problem with homosexuals adopting so long as the child would have a better life with them than with any other couple.
This means especially that children in developing countries should not be prohibted from being adopted by gays as they'd certainly have a better life being brought up with homosexual parents than llife on the streets.

CaptainSkidmark

i Dont have a opinion on it thats the thing..... i was reading it on another forum but the only thing is no one has a proper opinion because they are all straight!

Im not here to cause a ruckus, im here to get a proper opinion!

I do apologize if i hurt anyones feelings it is not my intention at all. But at the same time we cant avoid a discussion all the time just in case someone disapproves. Its a grown up reasonable discussion.

Nevyn

Sir Baralot wrote: »

Once again, defensive people. You'd swear the OP was all for forcing you to wear a pink triangle or something.
Calm it down!

I invoke godwins law, you loose.

AARRRGH

In an ideal world, it would be nice to have both a mother and father figure, but having two loving gay parents is a lot better than being stuck in an orphanage.

I think if a child is loved and brought up right, I don't think the sexuality of the parents really matters. Any potential bullying issue can be managed.

Dr. Baltar

Thaedydal wrote: »

I invoke godwins law, you loose.

Touché!

dlofnep

I don't think the issue here is with the sexuality of the parents. Anybody who would object to two caring parents from bringing up a child, purely because of their sexuality is very narrow-minded.

I think the real issue today with gay adoption is the reaction from society towards it. How will the child be treated in school? Will they be bullied? And the answers are - Yes, they will most likely be bullied and it may have a big impact on them. They are very valid questions to ask - because afterall, the most important person is the child.

So what do you do about it? Education in my opinion. Children need to be taught from a young age that homosexuality is just a normal part of some people's lives and that there is nothing out of the ordinary about it. This is a hard thing to accomplish, given the control of the catholic church over education. I could only imagine the grief I would have received when I went to school if I had been adopted by a gay couple. So this type of narrow-minded behaviour needs to be hit on the head from the get go.

I believe in the right of civil equality for everybody. There is an onus on your Government to ensure that civil equality is a normal part of everyday life for everybody. While I'd hope opinion towards the gay community is better now - like all things, I'm sure it has room for improvement.

So if you were to ask me would I personally have a problem with it based on principle? Absolutely not. But would society have a problem with it? I would hazard a guess that it would. There is obviously work to be done. Ireland has seen alot of civil inequality in it's history, and this is another chapter with which I hope ends on a high note.

Fol20

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't think the issue here is with the sexuality of the parents. Anybody who would object to two caring parents from bringing up a child, purely because of their sexuality is very narrow-minded.

I think the real issue today with gay adoption is the reaction from society towards it. How will the child be treated in school? Will they be bullied? And the answers are - Yes, they will most likely be bullied and it may have a big impact on them. They are very valid questions to ask - because afterall, the most important person is the child.

So what do you do about it? Education in my opinion. Children need to be taught from a young age that homosexuality is just a normal part of some people's lives and that there is nothing out of the ordinary about it. This is a hard thing to accomplish, given the control of the catholic church over education. I could only imagine the grief I would have received when I went to school if I had been adopted by a gay couple. So this type of narrow-minded behaviour needs to be hit on the head from the get go.

I believe in the right of civil equality for everybody. There is an onus on your Government to ensure that civil equality is a normal part of everyday life for everybody. While I'd hope opinion towards the gay community is better now - like all things, I'm sure it has room for improvement.

So if you were to ask me would I personally have a problem with it based on principle? Absolutely not. But would society have a problem with it? I would hazard a guess that it would. There is obviously work to be done. Ireland has seen alot of civil inequality in it's history, and this is another chapter with which I hope ends on a high note.

I think you nailed it.What comes first is how it affects the child and for this very reason i object to gay adoptions.Im all for equality and i am pro gay marriage as its 2 consenting adults who choose their path.Children on the otherhand didnt have a choice and are very impressionable .Having a gay couple raise them will affect them in the wrong way in my opinion.I know there are many broken families but when it comes down to it,the most balanced upbringing for a child is both a mother and father.

Cabbage Brained

Of course it should be allowed. The amount of kids in this world with NO parents and living in absolute dire poverty is absolutely shocking. Any policy or law that stops these kids from finding a loving and caring home is plain wrong.

And the bullying argument is a load of bollix. Should black people not be allowed have kids because their kids might be subjected to discrimination?

oisindoyle

hot2def wrote: »

Seriously, what is the point of coming into the GLBT forum, and asking gravely if gay people should have rights?

I mean really, is there a purpose beyond causing a ruckus?


If you have a point of view on this, and clearly you do, then present your PROOF and let people support or refute it. Otherwise, stir the pot elsewhere....

I totally agree ,,,,Well said

mobius42

Fol20 wrote: »

I think you nailed it.What comes first is how it affects the child and for this very reason i object to gay adoptions.Im all for equality and i am pro gay marriage as its 2 consenting adults who choose their path.Children on the otherhand didnt have a choice and are very impressionable .Having a gay couple raise them will affect them in the wrong way in my opinion.I know there are many broken families but when it comes down to it,the most balanced upbringing for a child is both a mother and father.

But children are bulled for all sorts of stupid reasons. Kids are bullied for having fat parents, black parents or Traveller parents. You don't use that as a reason for not letting those people adopt so why should this apply to gay people?

Studies have shown that same-sex relationships are the same as straight ones as per effects on the child. What affects children is whether or not their parents are in a loving relationship. http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20051012/study-same-sex-parents-raise-well-adjusted-kids

Also, if concern about the child was paramount then why are single parents allowed to raise kids? Statistics show that kids of single parents do less well off, on average, than those of married couples. Should we not force the mother and father into marriage for the sake of the children?!

hot2def

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

i Dont have a opinion on it thats the thing......

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

Dont get me wrong for the couple of course it would be a great thing.. but it would surely have a deep affect on the child's up bringing such as confusion or being bullied at school.

that right there is an opinion.

Sir Baralot wrote: »

Once again, defensive people. You'd swear the OP was all for forcing you to wear a pink triangle or something.
Calm it down!

.

I'm not being defensive, i don't think the OP is trying to oppress me. I just question the motives behind threads like these, because its pretty obvious that most people in here will support homosexual adoption, and take issue with the OP's opinion that it would cause "confusion" in the child (for which there is no scientific evidence as far as it know...)
The OP even makes the point that he found he discussion unsatifactory in a forum where everyone was straight - surely you'll have a similar issue here?

If you were really bent on an even discussion, with viewpoints more evenly spread across a selection of irish people, you'd have this discussion in debate or humanites.

meditraitor

Thats an easy one, of course it should be allowed!

The fact both parents are of a similiar gender is not relevent.


If you need me to explain why I will do so in dept but I really dont see why anyone with an ounce of cop-on would even ask a question like that. The answer is obvious.

Boston

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't think the issue here is with the sexuality of the parents. Anybody who would object to two caring parents from bringing up a child, purely because of their sexuality is very narrow-minded.

I think the real issue today with gay adoption is the reaction from society towards it. How will the child be treated in school? Will they be bullied? And the answers are - Yes, they will most likely be bullied and it may have a big impact on them. They are very valid questions to ask - because afterall, the most important person is the child.

So what do you do about it? Education in my opinion. Children need to be taught from a young age that homosexuality is just a normal part of some people's lives and that there is nothing out of the ordinary about it. This is a hard thing to accomplish, given the control of the catholic church over education. I could only imagine the grief I would have received when I went to school if I had been adopted by a gay couple. So this type of narrow-minded behaviour needs to be hit on the head from the get go.

I believe in the right of civil equality for everybody. There is an onus on your Government to ensure that civil equality is a normal part of everyday life for everybody. While I'd hope opinion towards the gay community is better now - like all things, I'm sure it has room for improvement.

So if you were to ask me would I personally have a problem with it based on principle? Absolutely not. But would society have a problem with it? I would hazard a guess that it would. There is obviously work to be done. Ireland has seen alot of civil inequality in it's history, and this is another chapter with which I hope ends on a high note.

I know someone who had a hard time in school due to her parents being divorced. Actually mainly from adults, from whom the children picked up their queues. She at the time couldn't understand why she was being treated differently to the other children. My own mother and her siblings had a hard time in secondary school back in the 50's, simply because they where working class and everyone from the local politicians to the nuns that ran the school down to the students who attended felt that education was only for the sons and daughters of wealthy farmers or doctors. That type of thing wouldn't happen today. These attitudes are gone and we didn't get rid of them by pandering to them, but rather by challenging them. By saying fuk your idea of how society is meant to work and yes it's going to be hard on the first ones but with any luck their children wont have to face the same hardships they did. Children need to learn how to deal with the realities of life, you do them a disservice by overly shielding them from it.

Fol20 wrote: »

I think you nailed it.What comes first is how it affects the child and for this very reason i object to gay adoptions.Im all for equality and i am pro gay marriage as its 2 consenting adults who choose their path.Children on the otherhand didnt have a choice and are very impressionable .Having a gay couple raise them will affect them in the wrong way in my opinion.I know there are many broken families but when it comes down to it,the most balanced upbringing for a child is both a mother and father.

Better a broken Jaw then a broken home. The traditional family unit is anything but balanced. The father earns the bred while the mother raises the children. People talk about balance in parenting without so much of a whiff of a clue. If you were to encounter an actually balanced family unit it would be so alien to your preconceptions that you would immediately rail against it as abnormal. Children need strong positive male and female roll models, the evidence of that need is all around us today. Its one of that they not only screen the couple but also the immediate family when people seek to adopt. If a gay couple cannot provide adequate roll models, they'll simply not be allowed to adopt.

Stark

Fol20 wrote: »

I think you nailed it.What comes first is how it affects the child and for this very reason i object to gay adoptions.Im all for equality and i am pro gay marriage as its 2 consenting adults who choose their path.Children on the otherhand didnt have a choice and are very impressionable .Having a gay couple raise them will affect them in the wrong way in my opinion.I know there are many broken families but when it comes down to it,the most balanced upbringing for a child is both a mother and father.

You forget that there are already plenty of homosexual couples bringing up children, mainly female couples (due to easy access to a uterus and all that). In the current situation,the biological mother is the legal guardian of the child, while the other parent has no rights. This means that if anything happens to the biological mother, then the child is in legal limbo and will likely be removed from the home it grew up in. Hardly the best thing for the child.

P!nk

I think gay couples should be allowed to adopt! I also dont understand why people make such a big deal about kids growing up with gay parents...
Any straight couple can have children-even if they might not be capable of looking after them properly, but gay parents have alot of trouble to go to get their child, so you know that child will be well looked after and also given alot of love! Personally I think thats all children need- a stable, loving environment! regardless of if 2 women, 2 men, single parents or a straight couple are raising them!

AARRRGH

meditraitor wrote: »

The fact both parents are of a similiar gender is not relevent.

That's a bit naive. The fact that both parents are the same gender is definitely relevant, for starters, at least one of them won't be the biological parent, and socially gay adoption is not accepted.

However I believe a child who is loved and brought up right will be happy, regardless of whether he has two dads or whatever.

meditraitor

AARRRGH wrote: »

That's a bit naive. The fact that both parents are the same gender is definitely relevant, for starters, at least one of them won't be the biological parent, and socially gay adoption is not accepted.

However I believe a child who is loved and brought up right will be happy, regardless of whether he has two dads or whatever.

Why is it naive? millions of children are being brought up by single parents of both sexes. It is naive to think biology is high on the list of pre requisites for bringing up a child, it just happens to be a fact of many. Ask any adopted person if they think biology was a major influence in the love and attention given to them.

AARRRGH

meditraitor wrote: »

Why is it naive? millions of children are being brought up by single parents of both sexes. It is naive to think biology is high on the list of pre requisites for bringing up a child, it just happens to be a fact of many. Ask any adopted person if they think biology was a major influence in the love and attention given to them.

It's naive to think the sexuality of the parents is irrelevant. There are so many reasons, but here's a simple one: many people disagree with gay adoption.

That makes the issue of whether the parents are gay very much relevant.

You can't just dismiss the issues because you don't think they're relevant. The reality is the world does not think like you.

Boston

AARRRGH wrote: »

It's naive to think the sexuality of the parents is irrelevant. There are so many reasons, but here's a simple one: many people disagree with gay adoption.

That makes the issue of whether the parents are gay very much relevant.

Many people disagreed with and continue to degree with mixed race families, it's pretty irrelevant to the things that truly matter. Do you honestly think we need you to come onto the forum and explain to us that people have an irrational problem with gay adoption.

AARRRGH

I am pointing out it is wrong to say the parents sexuality is irrelevant. That's simply not true.

You might personally think it is irrelevant (and to an extent I would agree) but the majority of the world disagrees, hence why the parents sexuality is very much relevant.

You have to look beyond your own personal feelings on the subject.

For the record I have no (or at least, very little) problem with gay adoption.

Boston

AARRRGH wrote: »

I am pointing out it is wrong to say the parents sexuality is irrelevant. That's simply not true.

You might personally think it is irrelevant (and to an extent I would agree) but the majority of the world disagrees, hence why the parents sexuality is very much relevant.

You have to look beyond your own personal feelings on the subject.

Not really. "Society" isn't going to be raising the child. The Child will have to live in the world and to a certain extent that has to be taken into account but at the end of the day all that really matters is how the people directly involved see things. The majority of the world isn't like you, and doesn't think the way you live your life is normal. That true no matter who you are.

AARRRGH

You can't just dismiss the opinion of the masses. The world doesn't work that way. Like it or not, until you can convince the world that two gay parents can do just as good a job as a mother and father, you're going to find it hard to convince most people that the sexuality of the parents is irrelevant.

Anyway, we've both made our points, let's not get bogged down.

ding-dong

This topic caught my eye and I couldn't help but contribute to this meandering thread. Seriously folks, there have been countless studies done on this subject. I'm quite shocked at the lack of a decent response on here - aren't most of you gay/bi?! Hell, how are you going to get your rights if you don't know your stuff?

CANADIAN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT:

"Parenting by same-sex families is just as good -- if not slightly advantageous -- for children when compared to heterosexual families, a Justice Department study has concluded."

"The paper references about 100 studies on parenting and children's development."

WEBMD:

"The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."

AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION:

"Fears about children of lesbians and gay men being sexually abused by adults, ostracized by peers, or isolated in single-sex lesbian or gay communities have received no support from the results of existing research.
According to a report by the American Psychological Association, not one study out of nearly 50 found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect to those children raised by heterosexual parents."

And I could keep going if I had the time. SO. MANY. STUDIES. Here you go, a nice happy gay family: http://www.youtube.com/depfox

OK?

This is not an issue. Are all you people making points against gay adoption ignorant straight people or ignorant self-doubting gay/bi folk? Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude - just pointing out that it shouldn't take two pages on lesbian/gay/bisexual forum for someone to put an end to this debate...and hell, I'm a stranger here! Hi by the way

mobius42

ding-dong, the videos you linked to are so sweet.:) They seem like such a happy family, a hell of a lot happier than many families i know with straight parents. Those videos are a powerful argument against those who think that families with gay parents are harmful to children.

mollzer

I think the discussion on gay adoption should be asked of people who have grown up in a home with gay parent/s, who have been reared in a gay home as opposed to a straight home.

There is loads of arguments (or should I say opinions) as to why gay women/men should not adopt. But where is the facts of why gay people should NOT adopt??? like is it just because of people ignorance and personal opinion? because bullying is NOT a reasonable argument and neither is the effects of finding out your adopted because that even with having straight parents can cause problems for the child when they become adults (finding their biological parents etc).

In my opinion the one good reason as another poster wrote re one biological parent being gay, in a gay relationship and something happens the biological parent. What happens to the child?? the other significant adult has no legal rights of guardianship over the child.

Can the child be taken away by social services? or maybe by an estranged family who happen to be biologically related but have had no input into the childs life?

ding-dong

mollzer wrote: »

In my opinion the one good reason as another poster wrote re one biological parent being gay, in a gay relationship and something happens the biological parent. What happens to the child?? the other significant adult has no legal rights of guardianship over the child.

Can the child be taken away by social services? or maybe by an estranged family who happen to be biologically related but have had no input into the childs life?

...and this is why same-sex marriage needs to be legal.

Mobius42, absolutely. Looking those videos makes you realize how ridiculous the debate is. A good parent is a good parent. I wish my parents were half as good as those guys.

P!nk

I totally agree. Heaven forbid if anything happens to me, my child will have to leave his home and his life and school to go live with a man he hardly knows all because my partner cannot legally be his guardian! In my opinion it makes no sense, the first option would be traumatic to the child and it needs to be taken into consideration that there are gay parents out there and someone needs to protect the children in case anything happens!!!!

Nevyn

P!nk wrote: »

I totally agree. Heaven forbid if anything happens to me, my child will have to leave his home and his life and school to go live with a man he hardly knows all because my partner cannot legally be his guardian! In my opinion it makes no sense, the first option would be traumatic to the child and it needs to be taken into consideration that there are gay parents out there and someone needs to protect the children in case anything happens!!!!

Hang on you can in this country legally nominate any person to be a child's guardian and gender has nothing to do with it. You just get the form fill it out and sign it in front of a justice of the peace/commissar for oaths and send it off to be processed. A guardian does not have to be a blood relative.

And any child who has a parent who is in anyway different had to deal with it,
good parents make sure that they can.

Boston

And also your partner wouldn't be able to adopt the child unless the father gave up his paternal rights.

Nevyn

Assuming he has any Boston.

mobius42

Thaedydal wrote: »

Assuming he has any Boston.

Stark

mobius42 wrote: »

The comma issue has been done already: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055166144

Bottle_of_Smoke

ding-dong wrote: »

This topic caught my eye and I couldn't help but contribute to this meandering thread. Seriously folks, there have been countless studies done on this subject. I'm quite shocked at the lack of a decent response on here - aren't most of you gay/bi?! Hell, how are you going to get your rights if you don't know your stuff?

CANADIAN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT:

"Parenting by same-sex families is just as good -- if not slightly advantageous -- for children when compared to heterosexual families, a Justice Department study has concluded."

"The paper references about 100 studies on parenting and children's development."

WEBMD:

"The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."

AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION:

"Fears about children of lesbians and gay men being sexually abused by adults, ostracized by peers, or isolated in single-sex lesbian or gay communities have received no support from the results of existing research.
According to a report by the American Psychological Association, not one study out of nearly 50 found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect to those children raised by heterosexual parents."

And I could keep going if I had the time. SO. MANY. STUDIES. Here you go, a nice happy gay family: http://www.youtube.com/depfox

OK?

This is not an issue. Are all you people making points against gay adoption ignorant straight people or ignorant self-doubting gay/bi folk? Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude - just pointing out that it shouldn't take two pages on lesbian/gay/bisexual forum for someone to put an end to this debate...and hell, I'm a stranger here! Hi by the way

Relax there, your defensiveness kind of implies you have some hidden doubts yourself

Anyhow, interesting links. Read all of them. One thing to note about your snappy little outburst - all these studies were on children with two female parents. This is understandable given it's a lot easier for two women to find sperm than it is two men to find a uterus.

It must however be recognised, these studies do not show homosexual adoption isn't an issue. They could well show that Lesbian adoption is not an issue, but it provides no evidence male homosexuality causes no negative results.

Now, this is a serious issue. Sexual discrimination laws would probably rule that if we allow Lesbians adopt we must allow gay men. Two of those articles you linked suggested children of Lesbian couples tend to fare slightly better than those of heterosexual couples in some areas. Could this suggest children of two male parents will fare slightly worse? I don't know but if they do is it fair on those children? We have to remember that although men and women are equal, they are most certainly different.

Personally I'm no longer totally against gay adoption as I once was, I'm unsure to be honest. Those articles have actually made me slightly more supportive of the idea though. I only really replied to you in this manner because I think someone hugely against the idea will throw this argument back in your face, and it was a bit dishonest of you to not mention all those studies were on Lesbian couples

mobius42

The family in the youtube link was two men raising a family. I didn't see anything in those videos that would convince me that having gay male parents would do children any harm.

Reflector

Gay adoption should be allowed, it annoys me that any scumbag can have kids but if a same sex couple want to adopt and be thoroughly scrutinised and assesed before they can be even considered to be charged with a childs upbrining it is thought of as completely wrong.

P!nk

Thaedydal wrote: »

Hang on you can in this country legally nominate any person to be a child's guardian and gender has nothing to do with it. You just get the form fill it out and sign it in front of a justice of the peace/commissar for oaths and send it off to be processed. A guardian does not have to be a blood relative.

And any child who has a parent who is in anyway different had to deal with it,
good parents make sure that they can.

I never knew anything about that at all!! Whats involved in it do you and does the biological father have to sign it??
I have put it in the wishes of my will because I thought thats all I would be able to do!

P!nk

Boston wrote: »

And also your partner wouldn't be able to adopt the child unless the father gave up his paternal rights.

Would he have rights from the very begining or do I have to give him rights by signing a letter or anything? This is all new to me!!!

Nevyn

P!nk wrote: »

I never knew anything about that at all!! Whats involved in it do you and does the biological father have to sign it??
I have put it in the wishes of my will because I thought thats all I would be able to do!

http://www.treoir.ie/pdfs/guardianship.pdf

Guardians and Wills
All parents who are guardians but especially mothers who are sole
guardians, should make a will appointing a guardian to act on their
behalf in the event of their death. It is advisable to talk it over with
someone who could and would like to act as guardian and get his/her
consent to be named in the will as a testamentary guardian. The
surviving guardian (if there is one) then acts jointly with the testamentary
guardian

There is a forum for appointing a someone as the legal guardian of a child, I can only find the oe for bestowing it on to fathers but any good family law solicitor will be able to draw one up for you and then you get it signed.

ding-dong

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Relax there, your defensiveness kind of implies you have some hidden doubts yourself

Anyhow, interesting links. Read all of them. One thing to note about your snappy little outburst - all these studies were on children with two female parents. This is understandable given it's a lot easier for two women to find sperm than it is two men to find a uterus.

It must however be recognised, these studies do not show homosexual adoption isn't an issue. They could well show that Lesbian adoption is not an issue, but it provides no evidence male homosexuality causes no negative results.

Now, this is a serious issue. Sexual discrimination laws would probably rule that if we allow Lesbians adopt we must allow gay men. Two of those articles you linked suggested children of Lesbian couples tend to fare slightly better than those of heterosexual couples in some areas. Could this suggest children of two male parents will fare slightly worse? I don't know but if they do is it fair on those children? We have to remember that although men and women are equal, they are most certainly different.

Personally I'm no longer totally against gay adoption as I once was, I'm unsure to be honest. Those articles have actually made me slightly more supportive of the idea though. I only really replied to you in this manner because I think someone hugely against the idea will throw this argument back in your face, and it was a bit dishonest of you to not mention all those studies were on Lesbian couples

"Anyhow", first of all let me begin by saying that my "defensiveness" and "snappy little outburst" doesn't imply anything other than the fact that I think this discussion is ridiculous and I'm frustrated that people talk about this as if it is an issue. I do believe the onus is on you to show me evidence that gay male parents and male single parents are inadequate parents. I really don't believe there is any legitimate argument that can be "thrown back in my face". As the APA study says:

"In summary, there is no evidence to suggest that lesbian women or gay men are unfit to be parents or that psychosocial development among children of lesbian women or gay men is compromised relative to that among offspring of heterosexual parents. Not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents. Indeed, the evidence to date suggests that home environments provided by lesbian and gay parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth."

Interestingly not only are there differences between men and women, but there are also differences between straight men and gay men...

The American Academy of Pediatrics, 2002:
"Compared with heterosexual fathers, gay fathers have been described to adhere to stricter disciplinary guidelines, to place greater emphasis on guidance and the development of cognitive skills, and to be more involved in their children's activities."

Actually, there are also differences between:
- Black parents and white parents
- Religious parents and non-religious parents
- American parents and Indian parents
- Rich parents and poor parents
- Parents who work at home and parents who work in the office

Of course, the list goes on.

We are all individuals and we are all different. There is simply no good reason to deny gay male couples the right to adopt. Gay men have been demonized as child molesters and perverts for decades so I don't blame you for your ignorant default position - but I'm not the one that should be providing evidence here. I only really replied to you in this manner because I think someone might be offended by your slightly sexist argument which disparages not only gay males, but males in general. It also inadvertently casts suspicion on male single parents. It was a bit dishonest of you to imply that gay male parents are inferior without showing a shred of evidence.

smileykey

I've a friend who has lesbimums. They have raised him from conception together for 23 years and yet one of his parents is legally a stranger to him and there is nothing they can do about - its horrible.

Thankfully I live in the UK now. So when my partner has our child I can automatically go on the birth cert. Won't even have to adopt him/her I'll be a parent from birth.

Bottle_of_Smoke

ding-dong wrote: »

We are all individuals and we are all different. There is simply no good reason to deny gay male couples the right to adopt. Gay men have been demonized as child molesters and perverts for decades so I don't blame you for your ignorant default position - but I'm not the one that should be providing evidence here. I only really replied to you in this manner because I think someone might be offended by your slightly sexist argument which disparages not only gay males, but males in general. It also inadvertently casts suspicion on male single parents. It was a bit dishonest of you to imply that gay male parents are inferior without showing a shred of evidence.

No, I didn't do that, even if I did I don't see how it would be "dishonest", ignorant perhaps. If you're going to take that position there's little point discussing it with you

Boston

P!nk wrote: »

Would he have rights from the very begining or do I have to give him rights by signing a letter or anything? This is all new to me!!!

Unmarried fathers don't have automatic rights in Ireland. You can agree to make him a joint guardian or he can petition the courts to be made one.

See this site for more detailed information.

Essentially the best approach is to make you partner a guardian, that way even if the father successfully petitions to be made a joint guardian, your partner should still have a role in the child's life.

ding-dong

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No, I didn't do that, even if I did I don't see how it would be "dishonest", ignorant perhaps. If you're going to take that position there's little point discussing it with you

Oh the indignation! I was merely lifting the accusation of "dishonesty" from your initial response to my post and um, "throwing it back in your face". If you can't take it, don't dish it. I am indeed interested in continuing this discussion if you have anything more to say. I urge you to look at these guys YouTube videos - it's important to put a human face on this topic:

http://www.youtube.com/user/depfox

Ambersky

Ding-Dong I love your your posts, especially the first one where you say
"I'm quite shocked at the lack of a decent response on here - aren't most of you gay/bi?!"
I would also like to join you in asking the question
"Are all you people making points against gay adoption ignorant straight people or ignorant self-doubting gay/bi folk?"

The patronising response to your articulate response especially the "relax there....with your snappy little outburst"
says a lot about the kind of forum this is.

I have been reading boards for some time now and find it useful for info on purchases and fixing things but
I think the forum Lesbian Gay and Bisexual, attracts too many people who maybe want a bit of a sexual thrill, an argument, or an education.
Even the ones looking for an education come with a heterosexist agenda and are usually out to challenge and test gays.
They think because their experience is the norm, numerically, that they have an objectivity lacking among lesbians and gays who are according to their way of thinking, naturally biased on the subject. The way they come on it looks like they believe they have more to teach lesbians and gays than they have to learn.
Most dont actually believe you have anything to teach them, but might with a struggle, concede the occasional point if you have enough published "facts" to show them.

And is it really worth it?
Is this baiting and argument really going to change anyones mind.
I think Ive only ever read one thread, on another board, where a man said he came to it full of prejudice and now he has changed his mind. He said he changed his mind because of the arguments put forward to him, thanked everybody and didnt add in any other buts, or ifs, or conditions.
Has this ever happened on this forum?
I would really like to be more positive about this and to believe that all the argument actually changes minds and leads to more openess and understanding.

I would prefer to see a section of this forum dedicated to the education of straight people, for people who want to ask genuine questions and for LGBT people who feel like answering them.
There is enough internalised homophobia and lesbophobia to be dealing with among the LGBT community.

ixoy

What's wrong with people coming here to educate themselves? What's wrong with them seeking genuine answers and encouraging debate? You claim that it rarely changes people's opinions (although we can't say that it hasn't) but surely if it even pushes them to consider other views, or respect, them, then that's a positive.

For example, this thread alone could allow people to understand the prejudicial way kids of gay parents are handled. Just because those posting are often on one-side of the argument doesn't mean that everybody reading is. The thread has 46 posts but 943 views - clearly people other than posters are reading it. Maybe their views are being challeneged or they're learning new things.

Also:

There is enough internalised homophobia and lesbophobia to be dealing with among the LGBT community without boards like this having to deal with educating straight people.

Now that's a divise attitude there - a "them vs us" mentality. This is a forum for LGB matters and that does not exclude anyone. All sexualities can post here about all LGB matters.

Ambersky

Boards.ie has forums dedicated to Politics, Education, Parenting, Humour, The Economy, Marriage, Philisophy, Personal Issues, Recreation, News and Media, Recreaton, etc etc etc.
Everyone and anyone can contribute to any topics on any of those forums.
The issue is heterosexuals vastly outnumber LGBT members.
LGBT members can comment and give their opinion on any issue raised in any of those forums but if an issue that is of concern to them comes up they can expect to be outnumbered.
Thats not pre judging what the outcome of such an interaction would be.
On an issue such as adoption by lesbians and gays I would expect opinion to be divided and quite heated. I dont know what the majority opinion is on the subject nor who would argue most effectively.

If its just me that has the divisive attitude why is there a seperate Lesbian and Gay and Bisexual forum at all?

Is it not so that we can debate things among ourselve, a place where we are in the majority and not having to put up with homophobia.

Again whats wrong with a seperate section on the Lesbian Gay and Bisexual forum for straight people to ask questions. It would allow for inclusion of everyone and Gay people would still have a place to ourselves.

Stark

Ambersky wrote: »

Again whats wrong with a seperate section on the Lesbian Gay and Bisexual forum for straight people to ask questions. It would allow for inclusion of everyone and Gay people would still have a place to ourselves.

It's not what boards is about. You don't have to be an economist to post in "Economy", a parent to post in "Parenting", a Christian to post in "Christianity" etc.

If you want to post in an exclusively gay environment, there are forums like www.gaire.com, www.gaycork.com , www.angrypotato.net , www.gcn.ie, www.queerid.com and the likes.

Tbh, this forum would die a death if we didn't allow non-gay posters.

Ambersky

You know I think that is the truth of it Stark.
This forum as it exists is mainly or at least dependant on it non gay posters.
To my mind thats what prevents it from actually being a Lesbian Gay and Bi forum.
I have been a member of boards for some time and I am gay but this forum has not really appealed to me. Thats me and Im sure the forum will get along just as it is without my input.
The other forums you mentioned are not exclusively gay.
They have straight members and straight moderators.
But they do preserve the integrity of their being gay forums mainly for gay members.
Maybe thats not possible to do on boards.ie as once you are a member here you can go where you like.
Even if you asked members to state their orientation on their profile as they do on Gaire not all gay members would feel comfortable posting in other areas. So I do see some difficulties.
Maybe the topic got so heated because it raises the question of whether Lesbians and Gays " should be allowed" to be parents.
This may be an objective question for debate for some people, an interesting little question to amuse oneself with.
That would be forgetting that on a forum for Lesbian Gay and Bi people you may be talking to people who have children. Who take the question very personally.
Thanks for letting me post about my frustrations here and do keep in mind that if one member is taking the time to post about this, there may be others with simular concerns.