Path to Christian Perfection...

kelly1

Hello,

just wonder if anyone sees themselves on a path similiar to the one set out below? i.e. do people think in terms of stages on a "road-map" to holiness?
Do you think it's worth thinking in these terms?

State 1 - Purgative (Where I see to be)

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The purgative way is the way, or state, of those who are beginners, that is, those who have obtained justification, but have not their passions and evil inclinations in such a state of subjugation that they can easily overcome temptations, and who, in order to preserve and exercise charity and the other virtues have to keep up a continual warfare within themselves.

State 2 - Illuminative

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The illuminative way is that of those who are in the state of progress and have their passions better under control, so that they easily keep themselves from mortal sin, but who do not so easily avoid venial sins, because they still take pleasure in earthly things and allow their minds to be distracted by various imaginations and their hearts with numberless desires, though not in matters that are strictly unlawful. It is called the illuminative way, because in it the mind becomes more and more enlightened as to spiritual things and the practice of virtue.

State 3 - Unitive

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The unitive way is the way of those who are in the state of the perfect, that is, those who have their minds so drawn away from all temporal things that they enjoy great peace, who are neither agitated by various desires nor moved by any great extent bypassion, and who have their minds chiefly fixed on God and their attention turned, either always or very frequently, to Him. It is the union with God by love and the actual experience and exercise of that love. It is called the state of "perfect charity", because souls who have reached that state are ever prompt in the exercise of charity by loving God habitually and by frequent and efficacious acts of that Divine virtue.

This is taken from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

This subject is dealt with in great detail in Ralph Martin's excellent "The Fulfillment of All Desire" and I highly recomment it! Just look at the reviews...

God bless,
Noel.

prinz

Somewhere between Purgative and Illuminative I would hope.

Or in other words, A lot done, more to do.
I try daily to get a little bit better as a Christian.

kelly1

I'm surprised that there's so little interest in this tread.

I sometimes get the impression from some Christians that as soon as you become Christian, you're over the line, you've got it made.

Jesus has called us to perfection in this life. It's not just a simple matter of being saved. The degree to which we are united with God in this life will determine our degree of glory in heaven and our closeness with or unity with God in the life to come. The more grace we possess, the greater will be our ability to "absorb" God's love. The more we love God and neighbour in this life, the bigger our "cups" will be in heaven. We'll all have our cups filled and will be completely satisfied but some of us will have bigger "cups" than others.

Do non-catholics generally subscribe to the notion of merit (storing up riches in heaven)?

God bless,
Noel.

getz

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello,

just wonder if anyone sees themselves on a path similiar to the one set out below? i.e. do people think in terms of stages on a "road-map" to holiness?
Do you think it's worth thinking in these terms?

State 1 - Purgative (Where I see to be)

---

The purgative way is the way, or state, of those who are beginners, that is, those who have obtained justification, but have not their passions and evil inclinations in such a state of subjugation that they can easily overcome temptations, and who, in order to preserve and exercise charity and the other virtues have to keep up a continual warfare within themselves.

State 2 - Illuminative

---

The illuminative way is that of those who are in the state of progress and have their passions better under control, so that they easily keep themselves from mortal sin, but who do not so easily avoid venial sins, because they still take pleasure in earthly things and allow their minds to be distracted by various imaginations and their hearts with numberless desires, though not in matters that are strictly unlawful. It is called the illuminative way, because in it the mind becomes more and more enlightened as to spiritual things and the practice of virtue.

State 3 - Unitive

---

The unitive way is the way of those who are in the state of the perfect, that is, those who have their minds so drawn away from all temporal things that they enjoy great peace, who are neither agitated by various desires nor moved by any great extent bypassion, and who have their minds chiefly fixed on God and their attention turned, either always or very frequently, to Him. It is the union with God by love and the actual experience and exercise of that love. It is called the state of "perfect charity", because souls who have reached that state are ever prompt in the exercise of charity by loving God habitually and by frequent and efficacious acts of that Divine virtue.

This is taken from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

This subject is dealt with in great detail in Ralph Martin's excellent "The Fulfillment of All Desire" and I highly recomment it! Just look at the reviews...

God bless,
Noel.

sorry to disagree with you kelly but the words ;path to christian perfection ;should be changed to catholic perfection,but i do understand what you mean

kelly1

getz wrote: »

sorry to disagree with you kelly but the words ;path to christian perfection ;should be changed to catholic perfection,but i do understand what you mean

Why wouldn't/shouldn't this apply to all Christians? I think we're all called to perfect union with God even in this life.

getz

kelly1 wrote: »

Why wouldn't/shouldn't this apply to all Christians? I think we're all called to perfect union with God even in this life.

i believe christianity has lost its way,prayers through saints,churches run like, you cannot be one of us unless you join our club, in fact churches are not even in the bible ,old or new. ,,john,5.39 it is by GODS word alone,that we know christ and the truth of the gospel,that we believe,and that we are saved--as for getting yourself brownie points-is this the answer--matt 28.19 jesus said,go ye therefore and teach all nations, babtizing them,in the NAME O THE FATHER,and of the son,and of his holy ghost ,i am trying to say by locking yourself away from the rest of society will make you less a christian,[like nuns,munks,ect] but that is not what jesus asks of us , as a add on temples are not churches

kelly1

getz wrote: »

i believe christianity has lost its way,prayers through saints,churches run like, you cannot be one of us unless you join our club, in fact churches are not even in the bible ,old or new. ,,john,5.39 it is by GODS word alone,that we know christ and the truth of the gospel,that we believe,and that we are saved--as for getting yourself brownie points-is this the answer--matt 28.19 jesus said,go ye therefore and teach all nations, babtizing them,in the NAME O THE FATHER,and of the son,and of his holy ghost ,i am trying to say by locking yourself away from the rest of society will make you less a christian,[like nuns,munks,ect] but that is not what jesus asks of us , as a add on temples are not churches

What has this got to do with the subject of this thread? The OP isn't aimed just at Catholics! And who said anything about locking oneself away from society? I'm not talking about cloistered religious. I believe that all people religious or secular can attain union with God in this life. It's just a matter of doing everything in accordance with God's will regardless of one's state in life. But I'm not saying it's easy!

getz

kelly1 wrote: »

What has this got to do with the subject of this thread? The OP isn't aimed just at Catholics! And who said anything about locking oneself away from society? I'm not talking about cloistered religious. I believe that all people religious or secular can attain union with God in this life. It's just a matter of doing everything in accordance with God's will regardless of one's state in life. But I'm not saying it's easy!

many years ago [1960s] i first went to study a form of japanese martial art, my teachers were shinto/budist priests-the thread is very similar to their teachings, i studied [martial arts]with them for four years,but their way was a way of madness-my advice to anyone is to stick with the old christian teachings,and away from new fangled ideas

kelly1

getz wrote: »

my advice to anyone is to stick with the old christian teachings,and away from new fangled ideas

Sorry, what new-fangled ideas do you mean? I believe that if we clearly show God that we love Him more than ourselves or put His will above ours and put no importance on our will, He will make His presence known to us in powerful ways.

If we persevere in faith, hope charity, through times of trials and temptations, always putting the will of God first, God will give us a foretaste of heaven, I believe.


John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love.
11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled.

Gal 2:19 For I, through the law, am dead to the law, that I may live to God: with Christ I am nailed to the cross. 20 and I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.

John 4:13 Jesus answered, and said to her: Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again; but he that shall drink of the water that I will give him, shall not thirst for ever: 14 But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting.

John 7:38 He that believeth in me, as the scripture saith, Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

getz

kelly1 wrote: »

Sorry, what new-fangled ideas do you mean?

the idea that the way to god is only by self/perfection, a good christian dosent need to keep checking him/herself to reach that state , it would just be part of their way of life,more[forgive me]brownie points would be earned by helping others, i in no way will ever think of myself as a christian, but i always go out of my way to help some body if i can, and if anyone wants to thank me afterwards i always tell them that they owe it to me to pass it on. [you will be supprised on how good it makes you feel.] not knocking your thread kelly,any talk on positive christianity now-a-days is a good thing

kelly1

getz wrote: »

the idea that the way to god is only by self/perfection, a good christian dosent need to keep checking him/herself to reach that state , it would just be part of their way of life....,

I think you may be misunderstanding what I'm getting at.

Because of original sin, our nature is corrupted - our reason and our will and we're prone to sin. Our desires are disordered. And it takes effort to correct our will so that God's grace can operate in our souls. I don't think God makes any of us perfect over-night.

But through our own efforts and prayer and an openness to God's grace we can come closer to what God wants us to be i.e. showing the following virtues:

1. Charity
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Patience
5. Benignity
6. Goodness
7. Long-suffering (patient suffering over an extended period)
8. Mildness
9. Faith
10. Modesty
11. Continency
12. Chastity

Now, I'm not saying for a minute that we save ourselves by our own efforts. God forbid! This thread isn't about salvation.

I'm saying that we need to work at tearing away that barriers between us and God and letting His grace operate within us. We are a fallen race and it's an uphill struggle to eradicate those aspects of our nature that cause us to love ourselves over God. We're all selfish to some extent. Those who are perfect show no signs of selfishness and put the will of God above everything.

getz

kelly1 wrote: »

I think you may be misunderstanding what I'm getting at.

Because of original sin, our nature is corrupted - our reason and our will and we're prone to sin. Our desires are disordered. And it takes effort to correct our will so that God's grace can operate in our souls. I don't think God makes any of us perfect over-night.

But through our own efforts and prayer and an openness to God's grace we can come closer to what God wants us to be i.e. showing the following virtues:

1. Charity
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Patience
5. Benignity
6. Goodness
7. Long-suffering (patient suffering over an extended period)
8. Mildness
9. Faith
10. Modesty
11. Continency
12. Chastity

Now, I'm not saying for a minute that we save ourselves by our own efforts. God forbid! This thread isn't about salvation.

I'm saying that we need to work at tearing away that barriers between us and God and letting His grace operate within us. We are a fallen race and it's an uphill struggle to eradicate those aspects of our nature that cause us to love ourselves over God. We're all selfish to some extent. Those who are perfect show no signs of selfishness and put the will of God above everything.

we are not born sinful/or a falen race ,you do not need or expected to reach the budist idea, of perfection to be one with god even the youngest school child knows this one[or they did when i was at school] mathew 5.2 blessed are the POOR IN SPIRIT for theirs is the kingdom of heaven---or mathew 19.21 jesus said[when asked about being perfect]if you want to be perfect,go sell what you have and give to the poor,and you will have treasure in heaven and come and follow me--pity no one has told the catholic and anglican churches, and i doubt many of our trying to be perfect boardies will go that far

kelly1

getz wrote: »

we are not born sinful/or a falen race ,you do not need or expected to reach the budist idea, of perfection to be one with god even the youngest school child knows this one[or they did when i was at school] mathew 5.2 blessed are the POOR IN SPIRIT for theirs is the kingdom of heaven---or mathew 19.21 jesus said[when asked about being perfect]if you want to be perfect,go sell what you have and give to the poor,and you will have treasure in heaven and come and follow me--pity no one has told the catholic and anglican churches, and i doubt many of our trying to be perfect boardies will go that far

Again, I think you've missed what I'm driving at.

Re your remark on us not being a fallen race, why do you think Christ came to earth? We were/are in need of redemption! But salvation is not the end of the story. God doesn't just want to save us and watch from a distance while we have a good time in heaven. He wants to give us a share in His internal divine life. i.e. union with God. But the extent of this union depends on the merit we gain in this life. When we die, it's not possible to gain any futher merit.

And "Poor in spirit" doesn't necessarily mean having very little money. It can also mean having no attachment to money.

I hope I'm not giving you the impression that perfection means that we look down on the poor from sanctimonious heights! Humility (along with charity) is absolutely necessary for perfection.

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

Why wouldn't/shouldn't this apply to all Christians? I think we're all called to perfect union with God even in this life.

Noel what you seem to fail to realize is that when you are a true Christian - a follower of Christ - you are not seen by God as a sinner anymore. You are seen as perfect as Jesus Himself. This is called judicial imputation of righteousness. Abraham believed (literally "faithed") God and it was counted unto him as rightousness. Abraham still sinned in his life but because of his faith God regarded him as righteous. If however Abraham started to try and do God's will trough fleshly effort - like he and Sarah did by offering Ishmael, an effort of the flesh - he would have cut off his trusting relationship with God and offered his own works instead of faith. God said no to Ishmael, the product of fleshly effort, a son of the flesh. He wanted Abraham to trust His promise to him that through Sarah should his seed be reckoned. This he acted on and produced Issac the product of trusting action in God's promise, the son of promise and heir.

It's the same for most of Christianity today. They offer their own works of righteousness to God instead of trusting His Word of promise. To offer one's own fleshly effort of trying to be like God in the flesh is to insult the work of His Son, saying that what He did wasn't good enough. All God sees now is Jesus and we come to God through Him or not at all. Why do you think Jesus said that He will tell many who say that they did this and so in His name to depart from Him in the last day? Because their lips are full of praise but their hearts are far from Him. He will say to them: "Depart from me you evil doers, I never knew you." Something for all Christians to think really long and hard about.

PDN

I believe that when we receive Christ as Saviour we enter into a relationship with Him. As we worship God and pray to Him etc. we grow closer to Christ. The path to perfection is a relationship, not something we strive at.

prinz

Soul Winner wrote: »

Noel what you seem to fail to realize is that when you are a true Christian - a follower of Christ - you are not seen by God as a sinner anymore. You are seen as perfect as Jesus Himself.

As a Christian, I see myself as a follower of Jesus, and the message He brought. I try to live my life by the example that He laid down. Everything else I leave up to God, tbh I could not in good conscience claim to know the mind of God.

Soul Winner wrote: »

If however Abraham started to try and do God's will trough fleshly effort - like he and Sarah did by offering Ishmael, an effort of the flesh - he would have cut off his trusting relationship with God and offered his own works instead of faith. God said no to Ishmael, the product of fleshly effort, a son of the flesh.

But Abraham didn't offer his son as a sacrifice off his own bat, he was requested to do so by God in the first place , should he have refused? IMO his refusal to carry out God's bidding would have ended a trusting relationship.

Soul Winner wrote: »

It's the same for most of Christianity today. They offer their own works of righteousness to God instead of trusting His Word of promise. To offer one's own fleshly effort of trying to be like God in the flesh is to insult the work of His Son, saying that what He did wasn't good enough.

So trying to learn from Jesus, via the parables etc. and applying them to your own life in order to follow His example is an insult to Jesus? Why did He tell parables then, only to try and teach people life lessons which they should apply themselves. Why would He instruct people to 'Go and sin no more'.... surely by your logic he would simply have said 'Go and believe'.

In that instance someone with full faith in God, would have no cause to examine their own faults and shortcomings

prinz

PDN wrote: »

I believe that when we receive Christ as Saviour we enter into a relationship with Him. As we worship God and pray to Him etc. we grow closer to Christ. The path to perfection is a relationship, not something we strive at.

Wouldn't you say all relationships need to be worked on to be improved? I have a relationship with God but I know it could be a better one, so I strive to hold up my end of the bargain.

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

Noel what you seem to fail to realize is that when you are a true Christian - a follower of Christ - you are not seen by God as a sinner anymore. You are seen as perfect as Jesus Himself.

I don't accept that at all. How could God be blind to our sin? If you for instance insult someone, do you think God wouldn't notice? Or are you perfect and without sin? Has God's will entirely replace your own will? If not, then you're not perfect.

"Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect". "Love one another as I have loved you". "If you love me, keep my commandments".

PDN wrote: »

I believe that when we receive Christ as Saviour we enter into a relationship with Him. As we worship God and pray to Him etc. we grow closer to Christ. The path to perfection is a relationship, not something we strive at.

You're right it is about our relationship with Christ but is your relationship with Christ perfect? Do you always do His will?

Folks, let's not fool ourselves by thinking we're perfect when we're not.

Soul Winner

prinz wrote: »

As a Christian, I see myself as a follower of Jesus, and the message He brought. I try to live my life by the example that He laid down. Everything else I leave up to God, tbh I could not in good conscience claim to know the mind of God.

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:16

prinz wrote: »

But Abraham didn't offer his son as a sacrifice off hit own bat, he was requested to do so by God in the first place , should he have refused? IMO his refusal to carry out God's bidding would have ended a trusting relationship.

I wasn't referring to the offering of Isaac, rather the offering of Ishmael, the son that Abraham had by the servant girl Hagar. God had already said that Abraham's seed will be reckoned through Sarah. But Sarah was well stricken in years and could not bare children. Abraham was to act on the impossible, and this he did and produced Isaac, the son of promise and not of fleshly effort like Ishmael. Paul uses this story in Galatians as an analogy of the Christian life . We are not to be like the children of the flesh, rather the children of promise. When we act on God's promises as Abraham did then we are counted as righteous, but when we offer our own fleshly effort, we insult God. Don't get me wrong, God loves good works, but the thing is that we can't do them. The only way we can do good works is when we are connected to God by faith which causes Him to put His spirit in us, who in turn expresses Himself through us and the result is good works. The important thing is not that we produce good works but rather that we stay connected in faith. Good works are the inevitable outcome once you stay connected to the source of life by faith, which is acting on what He says. If you are acting on a promise given by Jesus in a parable then you are acting in faith. That is it, you are being saved right there.

prinz wrote: »

So trying to learn from Jesus, via the parables etc. and applying them to your own life in order to follow His example is an insult to Jesus? Why did He tell parables then, only to try and teach people life lessons which they should apply themselves. Why would He instruct people to 'Go and sin no more'.... surely by your logic he would simply have said 'Go and believe'.

What else would He say? Go and keep sinning? No, He gave many instructions on how we should live our lives,including loving our enemies and turning the other cheek and so on, do we always live by them? I don't, I can't. I like Paul am the chiefest of sinners. I need God's grace, His unmerited favor, His forgiveness. This He has supplied in Christ by paying the price to ransom me from the grip of the world, the flesh and the devil. This good news is the power of God unto salvation for me, I don't have to try and be a Christian, all I need to do is trust Him with my life everyday and recommit myself afresh each day to Him. As long as I keep this connection to the source of life, He will be my righteousness, my peace etc, I don't need to add anything to Him by my own will power. Faith alone.

prinz wrote: »

In that instance someone with full faith in God, would have no cause to examine their own faults and shortcomings

The only thing we are supposed to examine is whether or not we be in the faith. We are never to examine ourselves to see if we are worthy or not. We can never be worthy, ever. We are made worthy by the blood of the lamb.

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't accept that at all. How could God be blind to our sin? If you for instance insult someone, do you think God wouldn't notice? Or are you perfect and without sin? Has God's will entirely replace your own will? If not, then you're not perfect.

Did I say I was perfect? I said God sees us as being perfect because He seen His perfect Son as a sinner, and poured out on Him the punishment that we deserve. By doing this He forever purged us of our sins. Even though we still sin, if we maintain the connection of faith then we are seen as perfect as Him. This is basic Christianity Noel come on.

kelly1 wrote: »

Folks, let's not fool ourselves by thinking we're perfect when we're not.

Nobody thinks they are perfect. That is the point. We know we aren't perfect and we know that we deserve only wrath, but the good news of the Gospel is that we are not appointed unto wrath. Why? Because we believed on the Lord Jesus and what He did for us ungodly sinners, that's why.

prinz

Soul Winner wrote: »

Nobody thinks they are perfect. That is the point. We know we aren't perfect and we know that we deserve only wrath, but the good news of the Gospel is that we are not appointed unto wrath. Why? Because we believed on the Lord Jesus and what He did for us ungodly sinners, that's why.

I thought the good news was that we are not automatically bound to wrath but that we were shown the light, or the path which will help us toward a different conclusion, i.e. we were given an opportunity to help ourselves by exercising our free will to consciously try to avoid the wrath.

Like there are two doors, one towards God, and one away from God. We didn't know which was which, but Jesus showed us which door brought us closer to God and now we must follow Him through that door. But in showing us the door He went through, it did not automatically mean we all went through with Him, that because of our freewill some people will still choose the other door, despite Jesus showing us the right way.

If I believed Jesus had assumed all my sins unto Himself and paid for them already, why would I not sin again? Like the line from the movie 'Gladiator' - "what we do in life, echoes in eternity", I feel that Jesus reminded us that we have to answer for ourselves someday.

We can have full faith that God and indeed Jesus are in the next room, but it is the manner in which we live our earthly life which decides which door we take IMO.

It sounds to me SoulWinner that you already feel guaranteed a spot at the top table in heaven. Personally I believe there IS a top table, and I try my best to get there. But at the end of the day it's not up to me to invite myself, but it's up to God.

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

You're right it is about our relationship with Christ but is your relationship with Christ perfect? Do you always do His will?

Folks, let's not fool ourselves by thinking we're perfect when we're not.

No my relationship is not perfect, and neither am I. I don't believe either will be perfect in this life. But I have discovered that my relationship, and my standard of obedience, grows better when I concentrate on loving and living with Jesus than when I get all introspective and start giving myself marks out of ten.

Of course the wonderful thing is that my salvation is already guaranteed because of what Christ has done for me, not anything I can do for Him. So working on my relationship with Christ is fun, and not a reason to be anxious.

PDN

prinz wrote: »

If I believed Jesus had assumed all my sins unto Himself and paid for them already, why would I not sin again?

Love and gratitude?

Soul Winner

prinz wrote: »

I thought the good news was that we are not automatically bound to wrath but that we were shown the light, or the path which will help us toward a different conclusion, i.e. we were given an opportunity to help ourselves by exercising our free will to consciously try to avoid the wrath.

No, listen to Paul:

"And you who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:1-9

prinz wrote: »

Like there are two doors, one towards God, and one away from God. We didn't know which was which, but Jesus showed us which door brought us closer to God and now we must follow Him through that door. But in showing us the door He went through, it did not automatically mean we all went through with Him, that because of our freewill some people will still choose the other door, despite Jesus showing us the right way.

Jesus said: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:12-14

prinz wrote: »

If I believed Jesus had assumed all my sins unto Himself and paid for them already, why would I not sin again? Like the line from the movie 'Gladiator' - "what we do in life, echoes in eternity", I feel that Jesus reminded us that we have to answer for ourselves someday.

There are two judgment seats. The judgment seat of Christ were the faithful in Christ are rewarded according to their faith. Some receive an hundredfold and some receive tenfold etc. This judgment meats out the rewards to the faithful based on their faithfulness to their commitmments to Christ, who have kept even a fingernail grip of faith in Him till the end. Then there is the white throne judgment, whoever ends up at this judgment only have their works of righteousness to offer, every one of them will be found wanting and be cast out into eternal darkness. Why? Because they offer their own works and their works are but filthy rags in God's sight.

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

Did I say I was perfect? I said God sees us as being perfect because He seen His perfect Son as a sinner, and poured out on Him the punishment that we deserve. By doing this He forever purged us of our sins. Even though we still sin, if we maintain the connection of faith then we are seen as perfect as Him. This is basic Christianity Noel come on.

You mean to tell me that God sees Christians as perfect even though they can see their own faults? Is God blind? I know God forgives us and is infinite in mercy but that doesn't make us perfect! Didn't Jesus command us to strive for perfection? To try to become like Him? This doesn't happen without major effort on our part. We must struggle against the devil, the world and the flesh i.e everything which puts a barrier between us and God.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Nobody thinks they are perfect.

But God does according to you. Amazing that we can see our faults but God can't!

PDN wrote: »

No my relationship is not perfect, and neither am I. I don't believe either will be perfect in this life.

But yet Jesus calls us to be perfect. The way I see it, it's not just about having our sins forgiven. We need to work to cooperate with God's grace and become what God created us to be and I think that it's possible to do this in this lifetime but only if we totally abandon our own will in favours of God's, if we totally trust in Jesus and hold nothing back.

PDN wrote: »

But I have discovered that my relationship, and my standard of obedience, grows better when I concentrate on loving and living with Jesus than when I get all introspective and start giving myself marks out of ten.

That sounds good PDN but only as long as we don't become complacent and puffed up with pride, imagining that we're very holy.

PDN wrote: »

Of course the wonderful thing is that my salvation is already guaranteed....

I find that quite presumptuous. As St. Paul said, we must persevere to the very end. I take it you don't believe in mortal sin.

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

But yet Jesus calls us to be perfect. The way I see it, it's not just about having our sins forgiven. We need to work to cooperate with God's grace and become what God created us to be and I think that it's possible to do this in this lifetime but only if we totally abandon our own will in favours of God's, if we totally trust in Jesus and hold nothing back.

Noel, you seem to be reading something there that I'm not saying. I never said it was just about having your sins forgiven. Our relationship with Christ is based on forgiveness, but it is about love, fellowship, worship, prayer and obedience.

That sounds good PDN but only as long as we don't become complacent and puffed up with pride, imagining that we're very holy.

To be honest I think pride is more of a danger when we see ourselves as struggling and striving to be perfect. When you see it as a relationship then the whole thing is based on pure undeserved grace anyway.

I find that quite presumptuous. As St. Paul said, we must persevere to the very end. I take it you don't believe in mortal sin.

I believe all sin is mortal - but I also believe in forgiven sin. I don't think it's presumptuous to believe the promises God gives us in His Word.

Scripture often uses the analogy of a marriage for the Christian life, and that's a good way of looking at it.
I am married to my wife and I fully expect for us to stay married for the rest of our lives. I don't think that's presumptuous. Of course if I were to start running around sleeping with prostitutes etc. then my marriage would be over quickly - but I love my wife far too much to do such a thing.

Also, I work at my marriage to make it better. But working at my marriage is not something painful or a struggle. It is a delight to work on my marriage. It means spending time with my wife, listening to her to find out what she really thinks and likes, doing things that bring her joy etc.

In the same way, working to improve our relationship to Jesus Christ should be a joy. It should not be based on some kind of fear that it's all going to fall apart someday soon. It should be based on trust, love, hope and faith.

bou

What is a saint?
Is there a spectrum of saintliness?
Is there a path to saintliness?
Is there a point to saintliness?
Why do monks and hermits leave society and devote their lives to prayer and purifying thought?

postcynical

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello,

just wonder if anyone sees themselves on a path similiar to the one set out below? i.e. do people think in terms of stages on a "road-map" to holiness?
Do you think it's worth thinking in these terms?
<snip>

God bless,
Noel.

Hi Noel,

Yes, I find it helpful to think in similar terms. I see myself as very much on a journey towards Christ and towards holiness and some of these human constructs can be helpful for me to advance towards this goal.

God is always there, calling me and calling everyone else. If I respond to His call, it requires more than just an acknowledgement of who He is. He calls us to love Him with all our heart, with all our intellect and with all our strength. While others may be inspired by God's grace and come to know Him fully in this life, for most of us I think it is a gradual revelation of His love. No matter how enjoyable, it often requires effort to study His word, to medidate on His will and to do His bidding.

His yoke is easy and His burden is light, yes, but sometimes we are more aware of His grace than other times. Why is this? Without His grace, we must make an act of will to accept it or reclaim it.

This kind of introspection Noel mentions can be helpful in two ways IMO. Firstly, we are known by our fruit, and it is no harm to reflect on our actions with our aspirations and see if we really are walking in the light. Secondly, it helps us assign the true source to our actions. We can see our 'good' works as being His work, or perhaps as being our own will, or habits from good parents, or basic social human behaviour. It is very easy to trick ourselves into thinking we are following Christ, when we might simply be on auto-pilot, like any other social animal.

Finally, we are creatures of flesh and spirit and we encounter God in the real world. It is not unreasonable to suppose that we can use real-world constructs to help us grow towards Christ, just as we can reject Christ by our actions in the world. Maybe some Christians have a direct route to Stage 3 on Noel's roadmap. I'm very much a pilgrim at the start of the journey and my guide is my destination.

Soul Winner

bou wrote: »

What is a saint?

A person who gives themselves over to the exclusive use of another. Not restricted to religion. Could be a job, marriage and so on. The word translated "Saint" in the New Testament is the same word that translates "Holy", the word is "Hagios" and it has to do with commitment not performance. To be holy is to be blameless in God's sight even though you are not perfect. The mark of the true saint that history respects is their consciousness of sin. Abraham said "I am not worthy of the least of thy mercies", Paul said that he was the chiefest of sinners, and Isaiah said: "Woe is me, I am a man of unclean lips", so even though all these great men were saints of God, non of them were perfect, yet God was not ashamed to be called their God.

bou wrote: »

Is there a spectrum of saintliness?

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Some are worse than others in respect to their sinfulness but no matter how bad a person is there is always hope through Christ for them to be saved. They just need to turn from their own ways and give themselves to God, God then will lead them and as Isaiah said will remember not their sins.

bou wrote: »

Is there a path to saintliness?

Yes, just verbally give yourself to God in truth.

bou wrote: »

Is there a point to saintliness?

Yes, you won't burn, and you will rule and reign in eternity with God, as long as you hold firm to your commitment until the end.

bou wrote: »

Why do monks and hermits leave society and devote their lives to prayer and purifying thought?

Because they are afraid to go into the real world and live as a Christian in the midst of the battle and just take the crap that the world and life inevitably throws at them and proclaim God's Gospel boldly and loudly. Monasteries are for pussys.

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

You mean to tell me that God sees Christians as perfect even though they can see their own faults?

Yes, but that does not mean that God doesn't know that we are still sinners. You see that is the beauty of what Christ did. Once you have faith in Him God doesn't see your sinful nature anymore. Why? Because when you trust in what Jesus did on the cross for you God sees you covered. Christ had redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse over us. He took what we deserve so that God could give us what He deserves. This is a GIFT from God. It cannot be earned, as soon as you try to earn it, it ceases to be a gift. We are only to trust in the giver of the gift and revel in His grace (which literally means unmerrrited favor). This is what the Gospel (Good News) is, and if your not preaching this good news then you are none of His.

kelly1 wrote: »

Is God blind? I know God forgives us and is infinite in mercy but that doesn't make us perfect!

I never said it did. We are made worthy by the blood of the Lamb, not by our effort in trying to be perfect in our own strength. Think of a court of law. A guy who is as guilty as hell of murder can get off scot free because there is not enough evidence to convict him so it is incumbent upon the state to view him as innocent or not guilty. It is the same in the councils of heaven. We are viewed judicially as sinless when we trust in the work of Christ. When we rest from our works and trust in the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit in us by faith. This faith action must be maintained daily in order to keep the connection to the source of life and once this is done there is nothing left for us to do in order to be accepted by God. God wants trust not perfection. He makes us perfect by His spirit and sees us as perfect because Christ was seen as a sinner. It was the only way that God could do it, otherwise we would all be up sh*t (sorry mods) creak without a paddle.

kelly1 wrote: »

Didn't Jesus command us to strive for perfection? To try to become like Him? This doesn't happen without major effort on our part.

Like I said before the only effort we are to engage in is faith effort. Acting on the promises of God that life's circumstances defy and hanging on until the promise is realized down here or over there. Either way it is faith all the way. It is never a matter of perfection. This is the lie that Satan told them in the garden. Knowing good and evil will make you like God. We can't do it without Christ spirit in us. To say that God expects us to be perfect in our own strength without Him involved in the process is to defy God and shows a very limited and negative understanding of the very basics of Christianity.

kelly1 wrote: »

We must struggle against the devil, the world and the flesh i.e everything which puts a barrier between us and God.

When you trust in God He puts His Spirit in you and you straightway become a target for Satan. Keeping this connection IS the battle of God in which we are but foot soldiers. Those who oppose this way are enemies of God and Jesus.

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

Bou wrote:

Why do monks and hermits leave society and devote their lives to prayer and purifying thought?

Because they are afraid to go into the real world and live as a Christian in the midst of the battle and just take the crap that the world and life inevitably throws at them and proclaim God's Gospel boldly and loudly. Monasteries are for pussys.

I know quite a few (catholic) monks who'd be offended by that statement.

Mind you, I rather suspect that they'd have a pretty dim view of anybody who thought that Gene Scott was worth listening to for anything other than a belly-laugh

Splendour

kelly1 wrote: »

You mean to tell me that God sees Christians as perfect even though they can see their own faults? Is God blind? I know God forgives us and is infinite in mercy but that doesn't make us perfect! Didn't Jesus command us to strive for perfection? To try to become like Him? This doesn't happen without major effort on our part. We must struggle against the devil, the world and the flesh i.e everything which puts a barrier between us and God.

At the end of time (as we know it), we will all be judged. Some will be judged on their own merits and then there are those,who have chosen the Christian path,who will be judged on what Jesus has done for them. Jesus took all our sins and if he did so, come judgement day, we will be sinless in God's eyes.
The barrier between us and God has been broken dowm by Jesus sarcrifice on the cross.
God will not wink at sin but will judge us on what decisions we have made ie: accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour or not. This obviously does not mean we can go off and do what we like in our lives, we msut constantly strive to be more 'Godlike' but also we should not beat ourselvves up for not having attained perfection.

Soul Winner

robindch wrote: »

I know quite a few (catholic) monks who'd be offended by that statement.

I'm quaking in my boots.

robindch wrote: »

Mind you, I rather suspect that they'd have a pretty dim view of anybody who thought that Gene Scott was worth listening to for anything other than a belly-laugh

I couldn't care less what they'd think of me. In fact it would a compliment to be hated by the likes of some of them. Gene Scott was the real deal, the best Bible Teacher this world ever knew, second or third only to Jesus and possibly Paul.

Fanny Cradock

Apologies if the point has been made before, I've really only scanned this thread.

I just don't see why a Christian should be concerned with attaining the impossible. One may as well hope for the moon to be made of cheese. Instead of seeking perfection, I would have thought that we are on the path of salvation through Jesus. Striving to attain perfection (whatever that actually entails) is something that I see as a futile, self-defeating exercise. Now this in no way means that a Christian should not be concerned with living a Christlike life, but I find that I'm too often confronted with my own failings and hypocrisy to worry about anything other than treading water.

Perfection, it seems to me, is entirely out of our hands.

bou

Maybe 'perfection' is a problematic word. I can see the concern that pride and anticipation might creep in if you think you are on the way to being perfect. Humility seems to be an important and integral part of good spiritual development.

How about developing or improving as alternative words instead of perfection?

As you practice and work with the teachings in your life do you remain the same or does your view of things transform over time? Is there some gradual development of wisdom which responds differently to situations? Is there a process of change in how you see yourself, how you see the divine, how you see other people and situations?

For someone who has, in every moment of every day over many years, worked to overcome the negative in themselves and devoted themselves wholeheartedly in their faith, is there not some small change in how they are after all that time?

I'm a little surprised to see two quite different viewpoints regarding withdrawal from worldly affairs to focus on one's own spiritual development. I find myself siding with the retreatants camp while at the same time I understand the point of not running away but instead facing the challenges one meets in life. However I would hold that a true practitioner, one who properly retreats from the world and enters wholeheartedly into practicing, is not running away but will come face to face with real challenges within themselves. I'm sure there are cosy career monastics who never face up to themselves and remain stubbornly stuck as they are. I was greatly inspired when reading the sayings of the Desert Fathers. It seemed that they were challenged in terrifying ways on a regular basis. Some failed while others overcame.

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yes, but that does not mean that God doesn't know that we are still sinners.

God sees us as perfect and sees us as sinners? That's doesn't make any sense!

Soul Winner wrote: »

You see that is the beauty of what Christ did. Once you have faith in Him God doesn't see your sinful nature anymore. Why? Because when you trust in what Jesus did on the cross for you God sees you covered.

Again, you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Compare "God doesn't see your sinful nature anymore" with "that does not mean that God doesn't know that we are still sinners".

Can God see our sins or not?

We seem to have a very different notion about God's justice. You seem to be saying that as long as we accept Christ as our saviour, our sins are "covered", that God sees us as perfect. I don't accept that. How could God not be aware of our sins? God knows everything!

I see things a bit differently. Christ atoned for our sins on the cross making forgiveness possible but we must ask for forgiveness. In Catholic theology, there are venial sins and mortal sins. All sin is offensive to God but only mortal sin drives the Holy Spirit from our souls making us unfit for heaven. If all sin had this effect, we wouldn't stand a chance of gaining heaven. Is it reasonable that all sin deserves eternal damnation? If I tell someone that their hair-cut looks stupid, do I deserve to go to hell for that? It's a sin but does it deserve damnation?

Soul Winner wrote: »

I never said it did.

You said that God sees us as perfect and I don't accept that because it would put a limit on God's knowledge.

Soul Winner wrote: »

We are made worthy by the blood of the Lamb, not by our effort in trying to be perfect in our own strength.

Again, I want to make it clear that our own efforts do nothing for our salvation. But we do require effort to fight against our sinful nature and temptations. We all have bad habits and it takes effort to break these habits and do God's will instead of ours. I takes work to eradicate the defects in us that block God's grace.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Like I said before the only effort we are to engage in is faith effort. Acting on the promises of God that life's circumstances defy and hanging on until the promise is realized down here or over there. Either way it is faith all the way. It is never a matter of perfection.

I think you underestimate what God expects from us. Didn't Jesus say "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" and "Love one another as I have loved you"? Doesn't this take effort? Do you love others as Jesus loves us? If not, you've work to do and so have I! God is calling us to strive to be like Christ and we should at least aim for this target and not rest on our laurels.

Soul Winner wrote: »

This is the lie that Satan told them in the garden. Knowing good and evil will make you like God. We can't do it without Christ spirit in us. To say that God expects us to be perfect in our own strength without Him involved in the process is to defy God and shows a very limited and negative understanding of the very basics of Christianity.

Let me as you a simple question. Are you perfect? Christ told you to be perfect! If you're not perfect, why aren't you?

I fully realize that all good comes from God, but our sinful nature doesn't disappear as soon as we become Christians. Sure grace helps us and prompts us to do good but the choice to do good isn't automatic. Doing good takes effort! At least it does for me.

PDN

Soul Winner wrote: »

Because they are afraid to go into the real world and live as a Christian in the midst of the battle and just take the crap that the world and life inevitably throws at them and proclaim God's Gospel boldly and loudly. Monasteries are for pussys.

Soul Winner, there's no point in asking the atheists to play nice with us if we can't even play nice with each other. Please learn to express your disagreements in a way that is more polite. Any repeat of this rudeness and you will be infracted.

kelly1

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I just don't see why a Christian should be concerned with attaining the impossible. One may as well hope for the moon to be made of cheese. Instead of seeking perfection, I would have thought that we are on the path of salvation through Jesus. Striving to attain perfection (whatever that actually entails) is something that I see as a futile, self-defeating exercise.

I think you're selling yourself short. Let me explain a bit more...

Jesus told us to be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect and and also told us to store up treasures in Heaven. What I'm talking about is merit.

It's not just a matter of being saved (or not). By doing good works, resisting temptations and practicing virtue, we are gaining merit (or storing up treasure in heaven). And when we correspond with God's will, we grow in grace and the greater our grace, the higher will be our degree of glory in heaven. If we want to share in Christ's glory, we must also share in His sufferings. "If you wish to be my disciple, take up your cross daily..."

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Perfection, it seems to me, is entirely out of our hands.

Yet, it's what Christ wants us to strive for. Be perfect...

bou wrote: »

Maybe 'perfection' is a problematic word. I can see the concern that pride and anticipation might creep in if you think you are on the way to being perfect. Humility seems to be an important and integral part of good spiritual development.

Absolutely. Humility is vital. If you think you're holy, you're not!

bou wrote: »

How about developing or improving as alternative words instead of perfection?

I suppose we can really only ever talk about degrees of perfection but we will never achieve the absolute perfection of God. But if we think always and everywhere about God's will and not ours, we will make good progress.

bou wrote: »

As you practice and work with the teachings in your life do you remain the same or does your view of things transform over time? Is there some gradual development of wisdom which responds differently to situations? Is there a process of change in how you see yourself, how you see the divine, how you see other people and situations?

I think humility is the foundation of leading a good Christian life. We must see ourselves as nothing compared to God. We must realize that all good comes from God and that we frequently oppose God's grace. We must never see ourselves as greater than others.

bou wrote: »

For someone who has, in every moment of every day over many years, worked to overcome the negative in themselves and devoted themselves wholeheartedly in their faith, is there not some small change in how they are after all that time?

I think we can see progress by how much we love God and neighbour and by our realization that we are nothing and God is everything.

bou wrote: »

I'm a little surprised to see two quite different viewpoints regarding withdrawal from worldly affairs to focus on one's own spiritual development.

People seem to be under the impression that I'm talking about perfection in a cloistered environment, hidden away from the temptations of the world.

I'm talking about practicing virtue in how we help the poor, and bear the fault of other patiently and accept life's trials and tribulations as being gifts from God etc, etc.

prinz

Soul Winner wrote: »

Because they are afraid to go into the real world and live as a Christian in the midst of the battle and just take the crap that the world and life inevitably throws at them and proclaim God's Gospel boldly and loudly. Monasteries are for pussys.....I'm quaking in my boots.....I couldn't care less what they'd think of me. In fact it would a compliment to be hated by the likes of some of them. Gene Scott was the real deal, the best Bible Teacher this world ever knew, second or third only to Jesus and possibly Paul.

Charming. Not even worth taking issue with. I had some respect for where you were coming from until this. Not only does it represent an ignorant and thoughtless opinion, it's also contradictory of previous posts by yourself in relation to Dr Scott.

kelly1 wrote: »

Again, I want to make it clear that our own efforts do nothing for our salvation. But we do require effort to fight against our sinful nature and temptations. We all have bad habits and it takes effort to break these habits and do God's will instead of ours. I takes work to eradicate the defects in us that block God's grace..... God is calling us to strive to be like Christ and we should at least aim for this target and not rest on our laurels...
I fully realize that all good comes from God, but our sinful nature doesn't disappear as soon as we become Christians. Sure grace helps us and prompts us to do good but the choice to do good isn't automatic. Doing good takes effort! At least it does for me.

+1 Much the same way any serious situation or dilemma in my life is now preceded by prayer and thought and reflection. And each time I hope to get stronger in pursuing the correct choice. I know I have bad habits that I could do without. I know I could be a better Christian.... I don't think I will ever be self-satisfied as being the best Christian I could be. IMO there's always room for improvement, but it has nothing to do with scoring brownie points with God regarding salvation.

The way I see it is that God through Jesus showed us just how good things could be here on earth. He was concerned with our spiritual well being but I feel that He was also concerned with our earthly existence and well being. He showed us the way to a happier life here. IMO Christians should aim to follow that example, and let God worry about/take care of our destination after death.

Obviously because of our human nature we cannot be as perfect as Jesus , if we were all to follow his example exactly we could create heaven on earth. But IMO the message was to follow it as closely as possible, and to do that it takes work and effort on our part, a striving to do our bit to make this a better place, i.e. to be a good a Christian as we can be.

kelly1

The thing I'm not sure about is how we go about rooting out ingrained habits.

Do we fight against them being ever vigilant for failings or do we admit to Jesus that we're powerless to change and ask Him to change us or is it a bit of both? Does God meet us halfway after we've made an effort to change?

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

The thing I'm not sure about is how we go about rooting out ingrained habits.

Do we fight against them being ever vigilant for failings or do we admit to Jesus that we're powerless to change and ask Him to change us or is it a bit of both? Does God meet us halfway after we've made an effort to change?

I believe we cry out to God for help, but then we have our part to play as well. We pray, "Lead us not into temptation" - but that means nothing if we choose to hang out in places where we know we will be tempted.

kelly1

I think admitting our weakness and God's power is half the battle.

But if God did all the work, we would be deprived of the merit gained by resisting temptation I suppose.

postcynical

PDN wrote: »

I believe we cry out to God for help, but then we have our part to play as well. We pray, "Lead us not into temptation" - but that means nothing if we choose to hang out in places where we know we will be tempted.

Avoiding temptation is better than yielding to it. If I can avoid sin, it's because of this prayer. Is there a middle path? Suppose we are brought into situations where we are tempted. What then?

Jesus is with us, but we are still in the world and still only human. I believe that one of the roles of religion (organised religion) is to encourage a worldly disposition which is more receptive to Christ's ever-present grace. A good Christian athlete trains, a good Christian scholar studies. While prayer is fundamental to life with Christ, I don't see why Christ would gratuitously elevate us to holiness by faith alone and then sustain us there any more than He would enlighten a scholar without swotting or energise an untrained athlete. (I don't dispute that He can do these things if He so wishes, but it's not His usual way).

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

God sees us as perfect and sees us as sinners? That's doesn't make any sense!

Yes that is worrying all right. The reason it doesn't make any sense to you is because you don't understand what Christ did. He died for the UNGODLY not for the Godly. So if you think you can be perfect without recognizing that it is His spirit in you that does the perfecting and that the only way that you can get His spirit in you is by faith and not works then you will never understand what Christ did. No one will be able to boast on the day of judgment that they are perfect. But God requires perfection or you won't be getting in.

So if He wants to save some of the imperfect ones from the mass of imperfect ones then He has a problem. He (as you quite rightly say) cannot wink at sin and be consistent with His own perfect nature. He must provide a way back to Himself for sinners in a way that doesn't compromise His integrity. He cannot be called faithful and true and wink at sin. Sin must be paid for and this was done in Christ. Now God has a means to take us on a different basis, one not based on perfection in accordance with His perfect standard the Law, but one that is based on His grace.

Grace means unmerited favour. That means that it CANNOT be earned. So no matter how much you think you are doing God a really big favour in striving against sin, your righteousness like everyone else’s is filthy rags. Even if you got to a point where you where satisfied with your own performance, it would still be found fallen short of what God requires if you want to get in via that route, and that requires absolute perfection, if you miss this mark even by a tiny spec then you will be adjudge as falling completely short of it and you might as well have deliberately broken every command. The way of grace does away with that Old Testament and ushers in a New Testament, a Testament that for faith alone God will save you, perfect you, justify you and glorify you, but you must hold onto it until the very end and not deviate from that path either to the right or the left and don’t be like the Galatians who started in the spirit by faith and endeavored to finish in the flesh.

If you want to go by the old way then you will be measured by it and you better pray that you measure up or else you will be damned forever for rejecting the door that Christ opened, which is the door of grace, unmerited favour and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the Gospel of Jesus, always was and always will be.


I'll get to the rest of your points later, have to dash out now...

Soul Winner

prinz wrote: »

Charming. Not even worth taking issue with. I had some respect for where you were coming from until this. Not only does it represent an ignorant and thoughtless opinion, it's also contradictory of previous posts by yourself in relation to Dr Scott.

I'm intrigued, please show me how what I said about Dr Gene Scott in this post is contradictory to what I said about him in other posts. And how is my opinion of him ignorant and thoughtless? By all means show me a better teacher of God's Word and I will rejoice. That does not mean that I think that there are no other brilliant men of God out there now and in times past but IMO none of them (the one's I've encountered at least) had or have the scope and depth that Dr Gene Scott brought to the table.

Soul Winner

PDN wrote: »

Soul Winner, there's no point in asking the atheists to play nice with us if we can't even play nice with each other. Please learn to express your disagreements in a way that is more polite. Any repeat of this rudeness and you will be infracted.

Will try but it is not easy and I'm not in here to be rude just for the sake of rudeness. Sometimes one must be harsh in one's words in order to put one's point across. Apologies all the same to all.

prinz

Soul Winner wrote: »

I'm intrigued, please show me how what I said about Dr Gene Scott in this post is contradictory to what I said about him in other posts.

I seem to remember a post in which you accused Catholics of idolatry and statue worship. Some like-minded folk once thought the same and associated themselves with Dr. Scott and promptly disassociated himself. As it turned out he wasn't of one mind on with them on that issue. So where does that leave your opinion of him as No. 3 behind Jesus and Paul?

Soul Winner wrote: »

And how is my opinion of him ignorant and thoughtless?

Your opinion of monks and Catholics by proxy was ignorant and thoughtless.

Soul Winner wrote: »

Will try but it is not easy and I'm not in here to be rude just for the sake of rudeness. Sometimes one must be harsh in one's words in order to put one's point across. Apologies all the same to all.

And the point you were making was what exactly? Other than to show yourself up you didn't achieve much IMO

Because they are afraid to go into the real world and live as a Christian in the midst of the battle and just take the crap that the world and life inevitably throws at them and proclaim God's Gospel boldly and loudly. Monasteries are for p****s.....I'm quaking in my boots.....I couldn't care less what they'd think of me. In fact it would a compliment to be hated by the likes of some of them.

Did you learn that attitude in the Bible I wonder.

Soul Winner

prinz wrote: »

I seem to remember a post in which you accused Catholics of idolatry and statue worship.

Did I. Where is the post? If I did, was I really that wrong? I seem to remember a lot of people worshiping statues a few years back. Where these Protestants or Catholics? I'll give you a clue, they weren't Protestants.

prinz wrote: »

Some like-minded folk once thought the same and associated themselves with Dr. Scott and promptly disassociated himself.

Who are you talking about? The statue destroyers or Iconoclasts as PDN called them? Dr Gene Scott disassociated from them because they associated themselves with his ministry. What would you do if someone who did what they did associated themselves with you? I mightn't be into statue worship but that doesn't mean I advocate the destruction of said statues.

prinz wrote: »

As it turned out he wasn't of one mind on with them on that issue.

Yes and neither would I be, what's your point?

prinz wrote: »

So where does that leave your opinion of him as No. 3 behind Jesus and Paul?

Still there. Who would be your candidate after Jesus and Paul?

prinz wrote: »

Your opinion of monks and Catholics by proxy was ignorant and thoughtless.

I was referring to monasteries and people who run to them to get away from the pressures of what life and the world throw at Christians. Not a very Christ like attitude. Christ got out there and faced the world head on and overcame it. Paul said that we are more than conquerors through Christ so what's the point in retreating to a monastery? Jesus said I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. That means that the His church is to be an offensive church, the gates of hell do not move on the church, the church moves on them, monasteries don't do that, and that was my point, I knew exactly what I was saying and why I was saying it, so you could say that my comment was far from ignorant or thoughtless.

prinz wrote: »

And the point you were making was what exactly? Other than to show yourself up you didn't achieve much IMO

Is this not a forum where one can have their own bloody opinion on things? I wasn't making a statement. I was answering a series of questions that another poster asked to which nobody else even cared to answer and now you criticize my answers to them.

prinz wrote: »

Did you learn that attitude in the Bible I wonder.

Neither Jesus or Paul ever minced words so I don't see why their followers should.

postcynical

Nice questions. I'm a Catholic but I'll just give my own opinion here as I haven't studied the Church's teachings on sanctity. Do you have a view?

bou wrote: »

What is a saint?

IMO, a saint is one whose will is aligned with God's will.

Is there a spectrum of saintliness?

I don't know. I think it's more like a threshold; you either are a saint or you are not.

Is there a path to saintliness?

Yes, I suspect so. I don't know what it is yet, but the Church (in its broader sense) is certainly a signpost.

Is there a point to saintliness?

Not sure what you mean here, but I'd say saintliness is an end in itself. I'd also say it is the goal of all Christians. It's certainly my goal in life.

Why do monks and hermits leave society and devote their lives to prayer and purifying thought?

It's a vocation I strongly identify with occasionally, although I feel an enduring attraction to secular life and to married Christian life. It would be wrong from a Catholic perspective to view such people as "more holy" than secular Christians. Also, from what I know of monastic life, these people are embedded in the mundane world through their prayers. Rather unromantically, their minds are often focussed on persuading God to attend to the details which make our worlds tick.

Soul Winner

Ok as promises here’s my responses to your other points:

kelly1 wrote: »

Again, you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Compare "God doesn't see your sinful nature anymore" with "that does not mean that God doesn't know that we are still sinners".

Can God see our sins or not?

Yes and no. If you are in Christ then No, and if you are not in Christ then Yes. Those who do not accept the atoning work of Christ as forever good enough to cover their sins, who offer their own fleshly will worshipping effort as some sort of supplement to the work of Christ insult God and the worth of His Son. By offering your own works you are sticking a finger up a God and telling Him that what Christ did was not enough, when the Father accepted His sacrifice as forever adequate to atone for sins. What happens to these people? They atone for the own sins.

kelly1 wrote: »

We seem to have a very different notion about God's justice. You seem to be saying that as long as we accept Christ as our saviour, our sins are "covered", that God sees us as perfect. I don't accept that.

Exactly. You don’t accept it. You said it not me.

kelly1 wrote: »

How could God not be aware of our sins? God knows everything!

I refer you to my reply to your first point above.

kelly1 wrote: »

I see things a bit differently. Christ atoned for our sins on the cross making forgiveness possible but we must ask for forgiveness.

That’s right but whether we ask for it or not, He still did what He did and it is still a forever adequate sacrifice in God’s sight. If you ask for forgiveness for your sins then He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Basic Christian doctrine.

kelly1 wrote: »

In Catholic theology, there are venial sins and mortal sins.

Paul wraps all sin up in one word in the New Testament ‘Harmartia’ which simply means to fall short of the mark. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Paul pays no attention to the traditions of men that Jesus warned us about. Sin is sin. I would suggest leaning more toward the word of God than the traditions of men which make it void.

kelly1 wrote: »

All sin is offensive to God but only mortal sin drives the Holy Spirit from our souls making us unfit for heaven. If all sin had this effect, we wouldn't stand a chance of gaining heaven.

The worst sins are spiritual sins, especially pride. Why? Because they are the hardest to deliver a person from. When one is lifted up in pride one is closed off to the gospel message, because in that prideful state, one never comes to realize that one needs the gospel message more than anyone and without God humbling such ones in His grace, only then can they never be saved. Nobody knows what single act eventually drives the spirit from a person, only God knows that, but there is a good indication in the Gospels. The priests had said amongst themselves that no man could do the things that Jesus was doing save God be with Him, then in the next few verses they ascribe these works to Beelzebub. It was right then that Jesus said that all things spoken against Him would be forgiven but He who sins against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven. What they did was deliberately turn against the truth that they themselves admitted to only a few verse earlier just to protect their earthly positions. In short they sold their souls and willfully turned from what they stated earlier to be true.

kelly1 wrote: »

Is it reasonable that all sin deserves eternal damnation?

‘Reasonable’ has nothing to do with it. We don’t reason with God about His ways. He is the way He is and He changes not, you either get with His program or burn.

kelly1 wrote: »

If I tell someone that their hair-cut looks stupid, do I deserve to go to hell for that? It's a sin but does it deserve damnation?

Telling someone that their hair looks stupid might be an honest observation. It would be worse to think it looked stupid and say it looked nice. That wouldn’t be honest. Have you ever done that? Or do you say what you think all the time? Jesus did. In any case we were already on the way to hell until Christ came and provided the way of escape, incidental trespasses in the meantime won’t alter that fact. But repenting of these trespasses and turning to God for forgiveness would be a good idea.

kelly1 wrote: »

You said that God sees us as perfect and I don't accept that because it would put a limit on God's knowledge.

That is the beauty of the Gospel of Christ. Because of what Christ did God chooses not to know our sins and doesn’t hold them against us anymore as long as we trust in Him who died for us and rose again.

kelly1 wrote: »

Again, I want to make it clear that our own efforts do nothing for our salvation. But we do require effort to fight against our sinful nature and temptations.

You’re right but what is the point in needing effort to fight against sin and temptations when it will do nothing for our salvation? If effort is not required for our salvation then what is required for it? And if what is required for salvation is ‘not’ effort and ‘is’ enough for our salvation then why depart from that and focus on fleshly effort in striving against sin?

kelly1 wrote: »

We all have bad habits and it takes effort to break these habits and do God's will instead of ours. I takes work to eradicate the defects in us that block God's grace.

What you’ve been told by the traditions of men (which make void God’s Word) about what sin is, is a far cry from the real problem. Bad habits are not necessarily sins per se. Paul calls sin an actual law that worked in his flesh, a force so powerful – like gravity - that it literally took captivity of him and kept him in bondage Romans 7. The only force powerful enough to deliver us from this force that dwells in all of us is God’s spirit. Fleshly effort which cannot even deliver us from the force of sin can no more get God’s spirit in us than crushing coal with our bare hands will produce diamonds, more power is needed than what we can provide and the only way to get that power in you is by trusting in God’s Word of promise.

kelly1 wrote: »

I think you underestimate what God expects from us. Didn't Jesus say "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" and "Love one another as I have loved you"? Doesn't this take effort?

Absolutely, but it is not required for salvation. Show me in the passages that you have quoted where Jesus says that doing these things is required for salvation. He was talking about the law of the Old Testament to people who thought they were keeping it. “You’ve heard it said unto you that thou shalt love your friends and hate thine enemies but behold I say unto you, love thine enemies.” He never suggests that if they don’t then they will not be saved. He was just showing them what being perfect really looked like, and if you were perfect then you would be like this. We all know we are not like this and this then drives the sensitive soul to Him for forgiveness. The law was our ‘pedagogue’ (schoolmaster in the KJV) to bring us unto Christ. It was perfect, but it had now power to save, it could only be itself and condemn all that could not live up to it. To bend down to help would mean that it would compromise itself. In order to get it out of the way it would have to be fulfilled first and Jesus said that He was not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. At the time when He spoke the words that you quoted it wasn’t yet fulfilled. So the law was still around then. But after He did what He did, dying in our stead, He rose and now takes us on a different basis. The New Covenant. Faith and faith alone, nothing added and nothing taken away.

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you love others as Jesus loves us?

No, I hate most people, if I said differently then I would be lying. I even hate myself at times.

kelly1 wrote: »

If not, you've work to do and so have I! God is calling us to strive to be like Christ and we should at least aim for this target and not rest on our laurels.

We are to labour to enter into His rest. We are to trust in Him daily and agonize the good agony of faith. We are not to imitate Christ in fleshly effort in order to get the praise of men, we are to have the mind for Christ. Jesus said: “This is eternal life, that a man may ‘know’ thee, the one true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” Nothing about striving to be perfect by way of fleshly effort there. Notice the difference in the verse you quoted and the verse I quoted. The one you quoted says nothing about being saved, its just Jesus telling people who think they are keeping the law what keeping the law really looks like, whereas the verse I quoted has Jesus specifically pointing out (to God no less) that to have eternal life is to ‘know’ God. How do we get to ‘know’ God? By studying His Word, what His ways are and what He prizes above all acts of men, trusting faith in what He says. Our efforts at righteousness offered to Him are as ‘excrement’ filled rags. Not my words, read Zechariah 3:3, where Joshua (the High Priest no less) is clothed with these rags. The rags represent his righteousness. God said take off the ‘filthy’ rags and clothe him in festive garments. We are also promised these new garments when we get over there. God knew that the high priest (who was representative of the people) wasn’t righteous, but none the less God caused his iniquity to pass from him. Notice that Joshua did nothing in removing the filthy rags from himself and did nothing in putting the new garments on either. It was all done by God, typifying what Christ does for us with no help from us. He does it all, all we are required to do is trust Him.

kelly1 wrote: »

Let me as you a simple question. Are you perfect?

In God’s eyes I am because of my faith and as God’s opinion is the most important opinion then I don’t need accusers like Satan in Zechariah 3 saying otherwise.

kelly1 wrote: »

Christ told you to be perfect! If you're not perfect, why aren't you?

My faith hath made me whole.

kelly1 wrote: »

I fully realize that all good comes from God, but our sinful nature doesn't disappear as soon as we become Christians.

Becoming a Christian is when you commit yourself to Him and trust Him to be your righteousness, (Jehovah Tsidkenu). You’re old nature is still there but by faith the new man is being built up. Once the garment of the flesh is laid down the new man rises to be with God forever.

kelly1 wrote: »

Sure grace helps us and prompts us to do good but the choice to do good isn't automatic.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" Ephesians 2 v 8-9

kelly1 wrote: »

Doing good takes effort! At least it does for me.

Still won’t save you though.

philologos

I don't believe that I can conquer sin through a plan. I also don't think it is kosher to regard onesself as on a path to perfection and focusing on such things could breed arrogance. What I will do however, is keep mindful of what I am doing that is wrong and if I am struggling to ask for help from God to help me overcome these things. I believe that Christ will finish what He has started in me however, but I also believe that all people have this option available to them through grace. I think "perfection" is an idea that can be very dangerous.