Sinn Fein...the future?

10-06-2009 8:24am #1

At a time when every non Government party is making significant gains, they seem to be stalled or in reverse. A very bad last General Election. A very bad European campaign in Dublin, and their golden haired girl lost down here in Munster, and they also made no impact in the North West when in the last campaign they polled very strongly. They lost a few high profile seats in local politics in Dublin when you would have thought they would have swept in. I see they now have lost another elected Councillor in Dublin.

What's their future?

mike65 · 10-06-2009 8:54am

10% is their future, the best way forward would be to ditch the Nordies and focus on the "26". And to develop a plausible set of policies.

Can'tseeme · 10-06-2009 9:22am

They're still a young party in the south, all the other parties are well established. But I think they've got all the potential there. They some outstanding young candidates coming through, they just need to be patient and I think they're vote will start to take off. The after effects of the conflict are still holding them back which the other parties use to the full extent. But they can't use it for ever and hopefully they can start to get their policy out there.

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 9:24am

Can'tseeme wrote: »

The after effects of the conflict are still holding them back which the other parties use to the full extent. But they can't use it for ever and hopefully they can start to get their policy out there.

Neutral paraphrase of the above:

Their stance on some of the atrocities is holding them back, and the other parties - and the public - are perfectly entitled to call them on it.

Hopefully they won't keep this stance forever and will hopefully realise that they have to represent the general public's views if they ever want to get their policies to be noticed.

Can'tseeme · 10-06-2009 9:26am

mike65 wrote: »

10% is their future, the best way forward would be to ditch the Nordies and focus on the "26". And to develop a plausible set of policies.

The northen vote looks after itself and they're a large enough party to cope throughout the island. One of their biggest selling points to the electorate is that they're an all island party. So ditching the north would be a disaster. As I said in my last post, they're a young party in the south, up against established parties. Patience and hard work is the key

Deedsie · 10-06-2009 9:35am

I honestly think they have to make some friends in the middle classes. There support base is from the working classes, people who rarely turn out to vote.

IIMII · 10-06-2009 9:48am

They need to drop the fixation on socialism and focus on the needs of the entire country. It doesn't seem to have registered that to win 30% of the vote, you need to reflect the views of 30% of the electorate. Even if 30% of the electorate were really socialist (not just vaguely socialist, or part socialist), that space is shared with Labour and The Socialist Party. And even some people that would consider themselves as being sypathetic to socialism, vote FF

It might also help to stop manipulating candidate selection to get young women in as prospective candidates - I think the lesson from this set of elections is that recognised hard workers will be elected, and pretty faces whilst not without use, are secondary to track record.

Can'tseeme · 10-06-2009 9:50am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Neutral paraphrase of the above:

Their stance on some of the atrocities is holding them back, and the other parties - and the public - are perfectly entitled to call them on it.

Hopefully they won't keep this stance forever and will hopefully realise that they have to represent the general public's views if they ever want to get their policies to be noticed.

Horrible conflict, let's hope it's all behind us.

DeVore · 10-06-2009 9:56am

Waaay too scary.
They havent gone away you know.
Socialist?? More like Marxist.
Untrustworthy people I feel would lie to me in a heartbeat if it served their purposes.
Unclear policies.
Unclear affiliations.
Unclear intentions.
Unclear that they have broken ties with violence (in any form).

These are just some of the things which spring immediately to mind about SF.

I'm a nationalist (in that I would vote for a united Ireland). I was born a catholic in Belfast. I have socialist sympathies and leanings. I come from working class roots. I wouldnt vote SF. There is something wrong there.

Mind you, I would say the same about the SWF or SWP or any of those "end justify the means" supposedly "socialist" groups. They are all too willfully blinded by their own simplistic ideology to see that social management is an extremely non-black-and-white business.

DeV.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 9:59am

DeVore wrote: »

Waaay too scary.
They havent gone away you know.
Socialist?? More like Marxist.
Untrustworthy people I feel would lie to me in a heartbeat if it served their purposes.
Unclear policies.
Unclear affiliations.
Unclear intentions.
Unclear that they have broken ties with violence (in any form).

These are just some of the things which spring immediately to mind about SF.

I'm a nationalist (in that I would vote for a united Ireland). I was born a catholic in Belfast. I have socialist sympathies and leanings. I come from working class roots. I wouldnt vote SF. There is something wrong there.

Mind you, I would say the same about the SWF or SWP or any of those "end justify the means" supposedly "socialist" groups. They are all too willfully blinded by their own simplistic ideology to see that social management is an extremely non-black-and-white business.

DeV.

Why does it matter about your religion?

I think the party needs to carry out an opinion poll.

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 10:03am

Perestroika wrote: »

Why does it matter about your religion?

It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant.

But now they have embraced democracy - or was just because they knew there was no way to win their 'war'.

Nodin · 10-06-2009 10:05am

Happy Monday wrote: »

It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant.

Could we have a link to these justifications please?

DeVore · 10-06-2009 10:14am

I was making the point that on paper I would be a "target market" for SF. They dont exactly woo protestant voters now do they.

The point remains that something is badly wrong if I would not consider voting for them.

DeV.

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 10:16am

Nodin wrote: »

Could we have a link to these justifications please?

http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/shankill.htm

viztopia · 10-06-2009 10:20am

might be a very general comment but if there was no such thing as Nothern Ireland then there woudl be no such party as sinn fein. the majority of the people i know that vote for or support sinn fein in the republic are scum. the kind of people that say" oh i know people in sinn fein, i will sort him out.....". Also there economic polices seem to be taken from Stalins policies - and look what happened there!!

brianthebard · 10-06-2009 10:23am

DeVore wrote: »

I was making the point that on paper I would be a "target market" for SF. They dont exactly woo protestant voters now do they.

The point remains that something is badly wrong if I would not consider voting for them.

DeV.

Why? Clearly you made up your mind how you intended to vote based on your own personal opinions and beliefs, not what we are told is the ideal demographic of a party. I don't think its that shocking that you won't vote for them, you probably never would have. The points you made about socialism/marxism are more telling than the fact that even as the ideal SF voter you choose not to be.

Now regarding SF's future, I think they need to drop Adams as a campaigner here during ROI elections. I think they have some serious presentation issues that need to be addressed before anything.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 10:27am

Happy Monday wrote: »

It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant.

But now they have embraced democracy - or was just because they knew there was no way to win their 'war'.

It doesn't matter one bit and what you have said is rubbish. Perhaps you could explain what the basis for justifying the murder of Protestants is? You said it, you argue it.

DeVore wrote: »

I was making the point that on paper I would be a "target market" for SF. They dont exactly woo protestant voters now do they.

The point remains that something is badly wrong if I would not consider voting for them.

DeV.

Target market? How? I have been a member for years and I can tell you we don't target voters based on religion.

I don't think theres anything badly wrong, its a complex that you have. I'm not slagging, just saying that its your problem.

itsallaboutheL · 10-06-2009 10:27am

viztopia wrote: »

might be a very general comment but if there was no such thing as Nothern Ireland then there woudl be no such party as sinn fein. the majority of the people i know that vote for or support sinn fein in the republic are scum. the kind of people that say" oh i know people in sinn fein, i will sort him out.....". Also there economic polices seem to be taken from Stalins policies - and look what happened there!!

understatement of the year! Conversely it could be said that if there was no such thing as Sinn Fein there would be no such thing as Northern Ireland....

brianthebard · 10-06-2009 10:30am

That statement doesn't really hold up L.

itsallaboutheL · 10-06-2009 10:34am

I'm talkling about Sinn Fein in the loosest sense of the term, its origins if you will, who is to say there would have been a boundary commission at all, if he can make sweeping general statements then so can i.:)

brianthebard · 10-06-2009 10:35am

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

I'm talkling about Sinn Fein in the loosest sense of the term, its origins if you will, who is to say there would have been a boundary commission at all, if he can make sweeping general statements then so can i.:)

Unionists are the ones who wanted Partition, not SF.

José Alaninho · 10-06-2009 10:36am

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/shankill.htm

Ah yes, and openly loyalist website. Well done, no bias there at all :rolleyes: I especially like their section on all the British Army / UVF / UDA murders- oh, wait....

As for the above comments about no Sinn Féin = no Northern Ireland and vice versa - are you seriously taking the piss?

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 10:37am

Perestroika wrote: »

It doesn't matter one bit and what you have said is rubbish. Perhaps you could explain what the basis for justifying the murder of Protestants is? You said it, you argue it.

I think you need to re-read what I have written.

I have said that SF/IRA - your party and movement - has murdered many Protestants across the North just because of their religion.

From innocent Protestant farmers on the Border to Protestant workmen going home on a Friday evening to their families to Protestants remembering their War dead in Enniskillen.

This all may come as a shock to you....maybe you should sit down for a while.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 10:38am

Hes right. There would be no N.I.

Just UK + Ireland :rolleyes:

itsallaboutheL · 10-06-2009 10:39am

brianthebard wrote: »

Unionists are the ones who wanted Partition, not SF.

I'm talking Chaos theory here!! i was really just trying to emphasise the ridiculousness of his comment, and SF and all that flew under their general banner were obviously massive players and the catalysts for alot of the events that mushroomed out.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 10:39am

Happy Monday wrote: »

I think you need to re-read what I have written.

I have said that SF/IRA - your party and movement - has murdered many Protestants across the North just because of their religion.

From innocent Protestant farmers on the Border to Protestant workmen going home on a Friday evening to their families to Protestants remembering their War dead in Enniskillen.

This all may come as a shock to you....maybe you should sit down for a while.

I have no duty to answer for the workmen on the border, but I will condemn it fully, as well as the event at Enniskillen being targetted.

I still ask you to explain what grounds there are for killing innocent Protestants.

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 10:43am

Perestroika wrote: »

I have no duty to answer for the workmen on the border, but I will condemn it fully, as well as the event at Enniskillen being targetted.

I still ask you to explain what grounds there are for killing innocent Protestants.

I oppose SF and people like you who support them and the murder of innocent Protestants - as before, re-read the posts - slowly this time.

José Alaninho · 10-06-2009 10:43am

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

I'm talking Chaos theory here!! i was really just trying to emphasise the ridiculousness of his comment, and SF and all that flew under their general banner were obviously massive players and the catalysts for alot of the events that mushroomed out.

In that case, let's expand it further: If the Brits had never occupied Ireland, there would have been no need for a movement for national independence. Best scenario all round imo...

José Alaninho · 10-06-2009 10:45am

Happy Monday wrote: »

I oppose SF and people like you who support them and the murder of innocent Protestants - as before, re-read the posts - slowly this time.

You have not answered the question. You linked to some blatantly loyalist propaganda site to try and make it look like you did, but you haven't.

Show us a single source where Sinn Féin representatives have called for and / or justified the killing of Protestants solely on the basis of their religion.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 10:48am

Happy Monday wrote: »

I oppose SF and people like you who support them and the murder of innocent Protestants - as before, re-read the posts - slowly this time.

Why would anyone target innocent Protestants?

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 10:49am

José Alaninho wrote: »

Well done, no bias there at all :rolleyes: I especially like their section on all the British Army / UVF / UDA murders- oh, wait....

People in glasshouses, etc......have you checked the Sinn Fein website for details and demands for justice re IRA victims ?

Until people stop taking sides like this there will be no moving on.

itsallaboutheL · 10-06-2009 10:50am

José Alaninho wrote: »

You have not answered the question. You linked to some blatantly loyalist propaganda site to try and make it look like you did, but you haven't.

Show us a single source where Sinn Féin representatives have called for and / or justified the killing of Protestants solely on the basis of their religion.

because its perfectly acceptable to kill them for selling drugs on your turf once its not "directly" sectarian!?!:rolleyes:

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 10:51am

José Alaninho wrote: »

Show us a single source where Sinn Féin representatives have called for and / or justified the killing of Protestants solely on the basis of their religion.

http://www.allianceparty.org/news/001489/mcgarry__reaction_to_sinn_fein_comments_on_escape_of_liam_avril.html

1 minute to link Gerry Adams and Mitchell McLaughlin to a brutal sectarian murderer.

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 10:52am

Perestroika wrote: »

Why would anyone target innocent Protestants?

Very good question. In fact, why would anyone target ANY innocent people ?

I don't think the IRA targetted innocent Protestants, BTW......they had no way of knowing what religion people out shopping were.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 10:52am

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

because its perfectly acceptable to kill them for selling drugs on your turf once its not "directly" sectarian!!

LOL turf.

Explain post?

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 10:53am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Very good question. If fact, why would anyone target ANY innocent people ?

I don't think the IRA targetted innocent Protestants, BTW......they had no way of knowing what religion people out shopping were.

Ok then. Why would anyone target innocent shoppers?

itsallaboutheL · 10-06-2009 10:53am

Perestroika wrote: »

LOL turf.

Explain post?

Sarcasm

Nodin · 10-06-2009 10:54am

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/shankill.htm

You stated "It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant.". You haven't provided such a justification from SF. Why?

Happy Monday wrote: »

I have said that SF/IRA - your party and movement - has murdered many Protestants across the North just because of their religion.

No, you said

It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 10:58am

Perestroika wrote: »

Ok then. Why would anyone target innocent shoppers?

You'd have to ask them that, because it's beyond me.

And come back to me when [if] you get a straight answer.

I won't hold my breath, because I'd be long dead.

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 10:58am

Nodin wrote: »

You stated "It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant.". You haven't provided such a justification from SF. Why?

Because they viewed Protestants to a man as their enemy.

Nodin · 10-06-2009 10:59am

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://www.allianceparty.org/news/001489/mcgarry__reaction_to_sinn_fein_comments_on_escape_of_liam_avril.html

1 minute to link Gerry Adams and Mitchell McLaughlin to a brutal sectarian murderer.

That doesnt relate to

SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant

either....

Nodin · 10-06-2009 11:00am

Happy Monday wrote: »

Because they viewed Protestants to a man as their enemy.

Thats not the answer to the question I asked.

Neither is it true.

Liam Byrne · 10-06-2009 11:01am

Nodin wrote: »

You stated "It has mattered to SF - they justified any number of atrocities against Protestants just for being Protestant.". You haven't provided such a justification from SF. Why?

The link to the Alliance Party website has Mitchell McLoughlin claiming that the guy who murdered the two was a "prisoner of war" - that's trying to justify it.

José Alaninho · 10-06-2009 11:01am

Happy Monday wrote: »

Because they viewed Protestants to a man as their enemy.

Aren't you just hilarious?

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 11:05am

Nodin wrote: »

Thats not the answer to the question I asked.

Neither is it true.

Are you people for real?
Northern Protestants were targetted for 30 years by SF/IRA in an attempt to drive them and the British Army into the sea and back to Great Britain.
Sectarian murders were commonplace in Border regions and in Belfast.
Protestants were also targetted in places like Dunmanway, South Armagh and Coolnacrease, Co. Offaly during the Tan War 1919-21.
SF stood over this slaughter during those times.

Happy Monday · 10-06-2009 11:07am

José Alaninho wrote: »

Aren't you just hilarious?

You didn't comment on that Alliance party link did you?

Nodin · 10-06-2009 11:09am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The link to the Alliance Party website has Mitchell McLoughlin claiming that the guy who murdered the two was a "prisoner of war" - that's trying to justify it.

No, it is not.

marco murphy · 10-06-2009 11:11am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You'd have to ask them that, because it's beyond me.

And come back to me when [if] you get a straight answer.

I won't hold my breath, because I'd be long dead.

You're saying it, not SF or the IRA. Put up or shut up.

Happy Monday wrote: »

Because they viewed Protestants to a man as their enemy.

Why? That was a bad attempt at answering.

Happy Monday wrote: »

Are you people for real?
Northern Protestants were targetted for 30 years by SF/IRA in an attempt to drive them and the British Army into the sea and back to Great Britain.
Sectarian murders were commonplace in Border regions and in Belfast.
Protestants were also targetted in places like Dunmanway, South Armagh and Coolnacrease, Co. Offaly during the Tan War 1919-21.
SF stood over this slaughter during those times.

Why whats wrong with Protestants?
When did SF stand over what you mentioned?

NOGMaxpower · 10-06-2009 11:13am

It amazes me how susceptible to propegha most of the SF haters out there are. For me there is a vast difference between obtaining a united Ireland through violence and politics. With the latter being proved to be a success.

You are ignoring the fact that the people and politicians up north have moved on from the troubles and are making real progress. Get over the past and look to the future. Spouting typical rhetoric about the troubles being a sectarian war is rubbish. There has been countless casualties on both sides and lets face it no one wants a return to the troubles. However there are some dissidants who are hell bent on returning to violence and again its SF and particularily Martin Maguinness who have been key in putting down this regiem.

Also food for thought is, if there was no SF there would be no peace in Ireland. Do you honestly think SDLP had enough strength to face all the Unionist parties and the UK government alone? Not a chance. Its easy to berrate SF due to the negitive publicity they received for decades up to the point where section 31 was lifted. Since it was lifted SF finally had a voice in the public domain (no more dodgy edits and actor voices on tv/radio). Was it any surprise that a few years later the 1st ceasefire was agreed? Which ultimately lead to the good Friday agreement (again without SF this would never have happend).

So back on track, what is the future of SF. Sure they're getting hit big time in the local elections and in the last general election but ask yourself why this is? Sure the ol stigma is attached to them as being the political wing of the IRA, who are now no longer operating and fully in compliance with decomissioning board (unlike many other Loyalist paramilitaries). Its all down to Irish economic policies. Very few people believe SF have the right policies to lead the Irish economy to success and you know what this is probably correct. But don't think for a second SF don't recognise this flaw and i know they are currently working on a real economic package for Ireland (including the north - only party to do so).

In short here's the future of the party IMO (I stress my opinion).

1 Create and rollout a real economic package that suits all the nations classes.

2 Change their internal ministers and counsellors. Moving away form the old faces of politics and replacing them with new ones. This will move the party away from looking at Gerry A, Martin and people remembering their ties to the troubles and the IRA. Thus opening up the party to people who are against any paramilitary ties. (They have already started to do this and have an extremely young party in their ranks).

3 Continue to be an all Ireland Party.

4 They are currently the 3/4th most popular party in the country. Inevitably this will lead them to a coalition governement with either Labour or FG. Both parties have already opened up previously locked doors to this idea.

5 Once we have a 32 county state just think of all the support they will gain from the former six counties = massive boost in local and general elections.

They are a real party who have been democratically elected to power. While they still have their support they like any other party in politics will continue to grow in popularity and ultimately cement their position in Ireland (they already have the foundations to do this).

At the next general election you will see SF gain seats by about 10% growth while FG and FF fight it out.

If I've caused any offense to anyone i apologise right now and again all of the above is just my opinion nothing less nothing more.

Can'tseeme · 10-06-2009 11:17am

Let's get real here, Sinn Fein wouldn't be allowed to sit on the policing board of Northern Ireland if they were involved in some of the things being suggested on these boards. They certainly wouldn't be sharing power with the DUP or making trips to downing street.

I've lived in Belfast all my life, through the conflict and believe me, the north was not a normal society. We've thankfully moved away from it. Sinn Fein have played a major role in transforming the city. That has been recognised by even unionist politicians. West Belfast for example is a totally different place compared to what it was 15/20 years ago. The politicians of the south need to stop with their cheap points scoring and get on with sorting themselves out.

NOGMaxpower · 10-06-2009 11:21am

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Let's get real here, Sinn Fein wouldn't be allowed to sit on the policing board of Northern Ireland if they were involved in some of the things being suggested on these boards. They certainly wouldn't be sharing power with the DUP or making trips to downing street.

I've lived in Belfast all my life, through the conflict and believe me, the north was not a normal society. We've thankfully moved away from it. Sinn Fein have played a major role in transforming the city. That has been recognised by even unionist politicians. West Belfast for example is a totally different place compared to what it was 15/20 years ago. The politicians of the south need to stop with their cheap points scoring and get on with sorting themselves out.

Couldn't agree more with you dude and I've seen the same thing myself since all of my immediate family are from Belfast and W Belfast. Its RTE's reporting and the political point scoring you pointed out that gives people on this thread ammunition.

Happy Monday is living on some strange planet i tell ya.

Sinn Fein...the future?

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