Crash opinions please

Lumen

I caused a crash this morning, and would appreciate some opinions.

I was pottering along the northside quays (Dublin) in the bus-cycle lane when I saw a car stopped in the lane to my right, indicating to pull across me into a side road.

About 20m short of the the car I decided that I wouldn't risk going inside it, and applied the brakes about 50%.

I then heard a shout (might have been a Blorg-esque "aw f**k") and a clatter. A cyclist behind me had hit my back wheel and gone down.

His hands were scuffed and bleeding; he thought he had broken his thumb.

He (with some control) explained that I should have indicated to turn left - this was his assumption. He hadn't seen the car to our right indicating to pull across.

I stayed around long enough to try and help him get his chain back on (I failed) then left him to walk to Cycleogical with his bike.

I had not been aware of him on my wheel and suspect he was a couple of bike lengths back.

There are some things I could have done differently:

- Shouted "car" before I braked.
- Looked behind me more often so I was aware of his presence.
- Decided to brake earlier and more gently.

The question is, which of these is "reasonable" to expect of a cyclist on a casual commute?

Is there anything else I could/should have done?

I just didn't have my group riding brain in gear.

TinyExplosions

I'd say it's not your fault. If he was following to close to avoid you, it's his issue. I'd say that just like in a car you should leave sufficient room to brake, it's the same on the bike.

If you'd shouted, or made a hand gesture like you would I a group ride, I suspect the person behind wouldn't have known what you were doing anyway

Edit: His assertion that you should have indicated left, does that mean he was coming up your inside? If so it's even more his fault for not paying attention. I'd always stay fairly far back from a commuter, as you never know when they're going to jam on a brake

MadHatter

Agree with Tiny, not your fault. He should have been in a position to brake and come to a stop if necessary.

I always think of cycling in the same way as skiing, the person in front has right of way at all times, and you must take their potential movements into account if you are following or plan to overtake. Regardless of what they do, if you hit them it's your fault, end of.

Fair play for hanging around though and try to fix the bike, last commuter I had collision with split pretty quickly once he saw me get up off the road, don't think he was too keen to "discuss" the rights or wrongs of his actions at the time.

CheGuedara

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I'd say it's not your fault. If he was following to close to avoid you, it's his issue. I'd say that just like in a car you should leave sufficient room to brake, it's the same on the bike.

+1, he was riding too closely to allow sufficient distance to react in addition to mis reading the situation. That's nothing but his fault

ROK ON

2 things here.
(1) Maybe you should have indicated that you were going to pull over, and of course be aware of your surroundings (but that is a trite and obvious comment).

(2) In a motor vehicle, the duty of care with rear-ending someone is the vehicle travelling behind - so this may apply to bikes also. The other cyclist should have been able to brake in anticipation of any eventuality that may occur.

Hope all parties are ok

Lumen

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Edit: His assertion that you should have indicated left, does that mean he was coming up your inside? If so it's even more his fault for not paying attention. I'd always stay fairly far back from a commuter, as you never know when they're going to jam on a brake

He assumed that the reason I braked was to turn left. I was actually going straight but braking to avoid a possible collision with the car indicating to cut across me.

I'm not sure what his road position was. I think I was less than a metre from the kerb.

Jawgap

I'd agree with TinyExplosions. I can't see how this could be your fault - ether he was following too close or he wasn't paying attention on a number of levels not least that he didn't see the car or you braking.

davyjose

Sounds like he was too close to you. It's the same thing as, when driving, someone slamming into the back of you in a car. It's THEIR responsibility to ensure they've left enough braking distance.

cmyk

Agree with the others, sounds like he was too close to brake. You reacted to what was the safest option for you, when that happens there usually isn't time to look over your shoulder and signal.

Hungrycol

The counter arguement is that you shouldn't have stopped if you had right of way and were going straight on.

But I agree with the others. He should have kept a safe braking distance and it's nice and dry and bright out there this morning so no excuses.

Edit. Gald there's no serious injurys and good on you for trying to help. POB's would have probably turned around and called him a "f**king eejit".

ROK ON

@ Lumen: Did the incident happen coming up to the left turn by the Morrision Hotel. I find that turn letal, in that many cars veer across the cycle/bus lane ignoring the fact that you may be in that lane going straight.
If so, I find the best course of action as I am approaching that junction is to take a position n the middle to right hand side of the cycle/bus lane.
Just a thought.

xz

It's his problem if he was "draughting" off you, without making you aware of his prescence. As with all road users he should have been well enough behind you to anticipate any unforseen circumstances, i.e. you braking to avoid hitting the car. IMO you did nothing wrong, and I dare say even if you had used the "slowing down" hand signal, he probably wouldn't have known what you meant.
I was once aware of a cyclist behind me whilst commuting, so was corteous enough to point out the drains, potholes etc. When we stopped at the lights, this guy with a puzzled look on his face, asked me why I was pointing at the road and gesturing with my hands. When I explained it to him, he looked even more puzzled.

tomasrojo

I'm assuming that, as said above, the person following is at fault for not leaving sufficient space to deal with the unexpected. If he was attempting to overtake you, then he should have gone wider, especially if you were only a metre from the kerb, and if there was no traffic following in the bus lane. If he was attempting to undertake you in that 1-metre gap, then he really needs to rethink how he acts on the road.

Lumen

Thanks for the opinions.

I think perhaps I could have braked earlier and more gently, then I would have been able to lift a hand and indicate. This would require a different mindset when commuting, as I don't normally worry about compensating for other cyclists mistakes, just those of the cars which might kill me.

Oddly, I've just discovered a chainring tattoo carved into my right calf, and another gouge from my pedal a couple of inches below.

I don't quite know how this happened, since (a) I don't remember unclipping before he hit me (b) I normally unclip my left foot when stopping.

I guess this shows the difficulty of analysing a crash from only one perspective.

Vélo

ROK ON wrote: »

2 things here.
(1) Maybe you should have indicated that you were going to pull over, and of course be aware of your surroundings (but that is a trite and obvious comment).

(2) In a motor vehicle, the duty of care with rear-ending someone is the vehicle travelling behind - so this may apply to bikes also. The other cyclist should have been able to brake in anticipation of any eventuality that may occur.

Hope all parties are ok

+1, totally agree with this.

In motor insurance it's up to the person behind to leave enough room to stop, why should it differ with bicycles.

tomasrojo

I do use the slowing-down hand signal, all the time. In my experience, most people follwing do slow down because they think you're telling THEM to slow down. I've never seen anyone else use it though. I once had an irate lady in a car taking me to task for telling her how to drive. She then gave me a hand signal of a different nature.

Caroline_ie

I too agree that commuter was too close and probably not paying attention to what what going on ahead of you. When you drive a car, you pay attention to the road ahead and around you as much as the driver in front of you ... same when walking.

Jawgap

Don't suppose you can remember what he was cycling? There's a guy comes down that way on a Carrera who I've seen a few times and he seems to have a death wish. He drafts waaaaay too close to cars and buses (and occasionally me!) for comfort!

blorg

Not your fault, it sounds like the guy behind wasn't paying a lot of attention. Even if he didn't brake himself I don't understand why he wouldn't have just gone around you, to your right? If it was a bus lane there is plenty of room? I think we need a diagram, get to it Lumen.

Lumen

Jawgap wrote: »

Don't suppose you can remember what he was cycling? There's a guy comes down that way on a Carrera who I've seen a few times and he seems to have a death wish. He drafts waaaaay too close to cars and buses (and occasionally me!) for comfort!

It was red road bike (with drops), a bit beaten up, with a scuffed white saddle, shimano shifters with a little thumb lever, and a double chainset. I remember being surprised than Shimano shifters had thumb levers - I thought this was a campag thing.

He was bigger than me.

tunney

Lumen wrote: »

I caused a crash this morning, and would appreciate some opinions.

I was pottering along the northside quays (Dublin) in the bus-cycle lane when I saw a car stopped in the lane to my right, indicating to pull across me into a side road.

About 20m short of the the car I decided that I wouldn't risk going inside it, and applied the brakes about 50%.

I then heard a shout (might have been a Blorg-esque "aw f**k") and a clatter. A cyclist behind me had hit my back wheel and gone down.

His hands were scuffed and bleeding; he thought he had broken his thumb.

He (with some control) explained that I should have indicated to turn left - this was his assumption. He hadn't seen the car to our right indicating to pull across.

I stayed around long enough to try and help him get his chain back on (I failed) then left him to walk to Cycleogical with his bike.

I had not been aware of him on my wheel and suspect he was a couple of bike lengths back.

There are some things I could have done differently:

- Shouted "car" before I braked.
- Looked behind me more often so I was aware of his presence.
- Decided to brake earlier and more gently.

The question is, which of these is "reasonable" to expect of a cyclist on a casual commute?

Is there anything else I could/should have done?

I just didn't have my group riding brain in gear.

Just to save my reputation - its all YOUR fault.

Seriously though - it is.

No really though - same as in a car, if you strike another vehicle from behind you did not leave room to stop. Not your fault. If he was in fact a few bike lengths back then his bike was obviously not in working condition and with working brakes or he would have been able to stop. Not your fault.

Jawgap

blorg wrote: »

Not your fault, it sounds like the guy behind wasn't paying a lot of attention. Even if he didn't brake himself I don't understand why he wouldn't have just gone around you, to your right? If it was a bus lane there is plenty of room? I think we need a diagram, get to it Lumen.

No need - maybe one of these caught the whole incident!

Lumen wrote: »

It was red road bike (with drops), a bit beaten up, with a scuffed white saddle, shimano shifters with a little thumb lever, and a double chainset. I remember being surprised than Shimano shifters had thumb levers - I thought this was a campag thing.

He was bigger than me.

Don't know him, but I'll be looking over my shoulder a bit more coming down that way!

TinyExplosions

Was he wearing a helmet? If not he should have been....

Lumen

tunney wrote: »

No really though - same as in a car, if you strike another vehicle from behind you did not leave room to stop. Not your fault. If he was in fact a few bike lengths back then his bike was obviously not in working condition and with working brakes or he would have been able to stop. Not your fault.

Thanks.

tunney's reputation wrote:

It's your fault. If you're weren't such a pansy you wouldn't let yourself get drafted in the first place. HTFU, buy a standard double and go faster.

Gavin

You were probably day dreaming about your fortuitous encounter with Gavin earlier on. Tut tut.

irishmotorist

Yep - the same as everybody said. If you're run into from behind, the person behind is responsible for being too close, going to fast and/or not paying enough attention to everything that's going on around.

lukester

This is a no brainer, he was following you, he should have been able to stop. I have had numerous pedestrians walk out on me, cars cut across me, cyclists lurching across lanes, and have had to stop immediately.

Sounds like he either was looking at something else/daydreaming, or his brakes weren't up to scratch.

kenmc

Yeah, completely his fault in my opinion too. Even if you have the right of way you still have to be sure that it is also safe to take that right of way; if you feel your safety is compromised you should stop - which you did as the car on the outside of you was potentially compromising your safety. Other cyclist didn't see the car; not your problem, theirs for not being observant enough.

I'm actually very surprised that I've never been hit from behind when I stop for traffic lights - there are some seriously unobservant muppets out there...

seamus

The only thing you didn't do was indicate that you were going to slow down. But that's irrelevant and most of the time I consider performing this indication to be extremely dangerous. If I rear-ended a car who had no brake lights, I'd be 99% at fault for failing to read the conditions.

Hungrycol

Lumen wrote: »

It was red road bike (with drops), a bit beaten up, with a scuffed white saddle, shimano shifters with a little thumb lever, and a double chainset. I remember being surprised than Shimano shifters had thumb levers - I thought this was a campag thing.

I think that's Shimano Sora, a grade below Tiagra.

Junior

I'd say something if you were riding in a group - you slowed in a straight line, you didn't move off your line - not your fault. I'd also agree with Seamus I wouldn't be making a hand signal when I'm trying to slow down in a case like this as you do need full control of yer bike in case the car did/does something stupid.

ROK ON

Hungrycol wrote: »

I think that's Shimano Sora, a grade below Tiagra.

:eek: He shouldn't even be allowed on the road.

I'm a boardsie, I am smug, share the road:D

Chips Lovell

His fault. He was either not paying attention or riding too close to you to brake in time. Yes, you may have had the right of way, but that doesn't mean you should ride into the path of a car if you feel it isn't going to stop.

Off Topic: You should have used the classic unionman line: "If you're going to rear end me, the least I expect is dinner and a movie first".

Off Topic 2: Yes, it was 2200 or Sora.

blorg

kenmc wrote: »

I'm actually very surprised that I've never been hit from behind when I stop for traffic lights - there are some seriously unobservant muppets out there...

I've had pretty close, guy yelled at me for stopping at a red :rolleyes: I will indicate that I am stopping at a red light if I am aware there is someone drafting me though.

Lumen- was there room for the guy to continue around you on the right? Enquiring minds need to know. If so he was a complete muppet and not paying attention. If not, you are the muppet. Only joking, he was in the wrong either way. You are still a muppet though. Only joking!

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Lumen- was there room for the guy to continue around you on the right? Enquiring minds need to know.

Yes, the whole lane was clear.

unionman

+1 on what everyone else said, he was too close and the duty of care is the vehicle travelling behind.

I expect much of his reaction was due to shock.

@ROK ON, yes that left turn at the Morrison is lethal, I take it every day and it can be a bit of a free-for-all with cars, taxis, bus and bike all jostling for position to turn left or go straight. Can be hair-raising.

Hope you are OK Lumen, not a great way to start the day.

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

Yes, the whole lane was clear.

Completely bizarre then, even if his brakes were not working he could have just swung around your right. He clearly was cycling too close while not paying enough attention. I went through the rear window of a car that braked in front of me once, I considered it entirely my own fault though, I was overtaking some cyclists and looking to get back into the cycle lane, not paying attention to the queue of cars in front of me.

Jawgap

blorg wrote: »

Completely bizarre then, even if his brakes were not working he could have just swung around your right. He clearly was cycling too close while not paying enough attention. I went through the rear window of a car that braked in front of me once, I considered it entirely my own fault though, I was overtaking some cyclists and looking to get back into the cycle lane, not paying attention to the queue of cars in front of me.

I've hit a bus............twice. Thankfully neither time at speed, but I'd hold my hands up and say entirely my fault because my head was elsewhere (apart from embedded in the bus).

As a kid I cycled into the back of a parked van - again because of my own stupidity - I had a sports bag across the handlebars and came around the corner too fast to find a van parked where I'd never seen one parked before.

Maybe the guy was trying to go down the inside for the fun / thrill / excitement of doing something silly and getting away with it?

Hope the leg (and bike) are ok.

Captain Havoc

It's obvious what happened here, the guy was late for work and was wrecked. He decided to draft behind you before pegging it again.
In all seriousness, if you applied the breaks at 50% and he crashed into you, he was definately too close.

fiacha

CheGuedara wrote: »

+1, he was riding too closely to allow sufficient distance to react in addition to mis reading the situation. That's nothing but his fault

Agreed. I made a similar mistake a couple of years ago on the Cabra Rd and nearly killed myself. Cyclist in front had both hands stuffed in his jeans pockets and was wobbling along the cycle lane.
I got impatient and decided to overtake without warning him or looking over my right shoulder. I failed to notice the panel truck overtaking us and hit the side of it. Lost my balance and had nothing but the passing truck keeping me horizontal ! Truck ripped off my jacket sleeve and spat me out the back into an empty lane. No damage done but scared the carp out of me.

The other cyclist was totally unaware of my near miss. I caught up with him at the next lights and got a nod and a hello from him. Nobody to blame but myself.

Hopefully your guy has learned his lesson

kona

Lumen wrote: »

I caused a crash this morning, and would appreciate some opinions.

I was pottering along the northside quays (Dublin) in the bus-cycle lane when I saw a car stopped in the lane to my right, indicating to pull across me into a side road.

About 20m short of the the car I decided that I wouldn't risk going inside it, and applied the brakes about 50%.

I then heard a shout (might have been a Blorg-esque "aw f**k") and a clatter. A cyclist behind me had hit my back wheel and gone down.

His hands were scuffed and bleeding; he thought he had broken his thumb.

He (with some control) explained that I should have indicated to turn left - this was his assumption. He hadn't seen the car to our right indicating to pull across.

I stayed around long enough to try and help him get his chain back on (I failed) then left him to walk to Cycleogical with his bike.

I had not been aware of him on my wheel and suspect he was a couple of bike lengths back.

There are some things I could have done differently:

- Shouted "car" before I braked.
- Looked behind me more often so I was aware of his presence.
- Decided to brake earlier and more gently.

The question is, which of these is "reasonable" to expect of a cyclist on a casual commute?

Is there anything else I could/should have done?

I just didn't have my group riding brain in gear.

Riders like him do my head in, the cycle like they drive...right up your arse.
You did nothing wrong he was clearly riding your ass, you braked(which your etitled to do) he should have kept a safe distance, stopped daydreaming and had either better brakes or have them serviced more regular .IMO
I know my brakes will stop me dead on the flat at top speed in around 10m.

Lumen

Jawgap wrote: »

Hope the leg (and bike) are ok.

Leg will heal. Cliff re-trued my wheel FoC whilst I had my lunch.

Just as well I'm not commuting on Mavic R-SYS.

TinyExplosions

Lumen wrote: »

Leg will heal. Cliff re-trued my wheel FoC whilst I had my lunch.

Just as well I'm not commuting on Mavic R-SYS.

Should have asked for a lend of a pump to inflate the tyre a lil more too

kona

So back to the disc Vs callipers on a commuter debate:P

Lumen

kona wrote: »

So back to the disc Vs callipers on a commuter debate:P

Whilst I'm generally not a proprietorial sort of person, if you drag my thread off topic I'll swear I'll hunt you down and bore you to death.

Vélo

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Should have asked for a lend of a pump to inflate the tyre a lil more too

Now Tiny, that's enough tom foolery from you!

kona

Lumen wrote: »

Whilst I'm generally not a proprietorial sort of person, if you drag my thread off topic I'll swear I'll hunt you down and bore you to death.

Just trying to avoid the cyclogicl infamous pump incident recurring.
:pac::pac::pac::pac::p

Vélo

CAKE??????????

kona

Aquinas73 wrote: »

CAKE??????????

oh can I eat It too?;)

Vélo

kona wrote: »

oh can I eat It too?;)

I'll bring some Saturday evening.

Dowee

OP, I had a similar thing happen me a couple of months ago, except I was bike behind. I was cycling along the canal in the bike lane with a line of cars to my right when the bike in front of me stopped suddenly. I didn't have time to react quickly to enough to brake and stop in a controlled way and ended up going over the handlebars. I wasn't too badly hurt but was left wondering why the bike in front stopped. However I figured I shouldn't have been so close to it and so it was entirely my own fault.

Once I dusted myself off and was cycling away I then noticed the reason she stopped was some idiot in a car had opened the door without looking, forcing her to brake. It was only as I had passed the car that I dawned on me. I should have gone back and yelled at them, but didn't!!

In short I was to blame for being too close behind the other cyclist, if I'd been further back I'd have been able to stop properly. At no point did I think it was up to the cyclist in front to alert me to the fact that she needed to stop.