No Confidence motion - a waste of Dail time surely?

squonk

One and a half days amidst the greatest ecconomic crisis to hit this country in a long, long time and our public representatives are spending a day and a half debating a no confidence motion that the government will win anyway... Surely there are better issues that could be dealt with now using this time, especially considering holidays kick in in a a week or two anyway..

It sounds like it'll be a rerun of the collective bickering and butt-kicking that was Q&A last night, and like that show, in the end there was no real beneficial outocome to the ordinary voter.

From RTE

The Dáil will begin debating a motion of confidence in the Government at 2.30pm this afternoon - the Government is expected to win tomorrow's vote comfortably.

Faced with a Fine Gael motion of no confidence, the Government responded in the traditional way - meeting the challenge head-on by putting down its own confidence motion.
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Dáil business has been cleared for today and tomorrow to allow time for the debate, which will begin after the order of business and Leaders' Questions to Taoiseach Brian Cowen.

The debate is due to continue until 8.30pm tonight, and then resume tomorrow, when the motion will be put to a vote at around 5.30pm.

Akrasia

If the opposition were serious about bringing down the government, the opposition would refuse to pair with missing government tds. make every govt td attend every single vote and if more than 2 or 3 are absent, defeat the motion until they agree to an election.

ShooterSF

This vote should put the end to the career of a few Green TDs and a few independents.

JonathanAnon

I think this is an utter waste of time, FG playing politics (payed for by us), when the country is in crisis. And moved the debate about the Ryan report (another thing that the government has fkd up and is now tackling retrospectively) to Friday. Are they going to do ANY work to try and deal with the current economic situation this week at all???

Sully

Its more applying pressure. We all know that there not going to win. The government are going to be, effectively, held to randsom by Independents and Greens. FF wont drop, not a chance. The Greens or the Independents will have to pull the plug and as long as they get what they want, that wont happen.

The real question is; How many orders will the government take from them before they say "No"?

(PS we have another thread on this already)

turgon

It will be live, as always, on Oireachtas TV. Might watch a bit, but to be honest, Kenny and Cowen dont make for very exciting debates.

There is much discussion as whether this was a good move by FG. One boardsie called a "master stroke," yet the Examiner reporter said its defeat would negatively impact FG.

Either way, I think that tabling this motion is FG responding to the electorate. Everyone is saying that this elections should end the government, and FG is responding to try and do that.

is_that_so

Akrasia wrote: »

If the opposition were serious about bringing down the government, the opposition would refuse to pair with missing government tds. make every govt td attend every single vote and if more than 2 or 3 are absent, defeat the motion until they agree to an election.

They could indeed and it would replicated in spades by FF in opposition. FG and Labour in opposition are pussies by comparison to a baying FF party. Long term it would cause a lot of problems in getting things done as well as an awful lot of bad blood.

Sully

turgon wrote: »

It will be live, as always, on Oireachtas TV. Might watch a bit, but to be honest, Kenny and Cowen dont make for very exciting debates.

There is much discussion as whether this was a good move by FG. One boardsie called a "master stroke," yet the Examiner reporter said its defeat would negatively impact FG.

Either way, I think that tabling this motion is FG responding to the electorate. Everyone is saying that this elections should end the government, and FG is responding to try and do that.

I think if FG did nothing and left them carry on, it would anger a lot of people. By responding with a vote of no confidence it damages those supporting FF in the vote especially The Greens. It also shows FG responding to the electorate. But we all know they wont win, its just a tease.

jhegarty

If it keeps cowen busy for a few hours it is well worth it.

gcgirl

Where's John Gormless ?

Jack Sheehan

Another decent live feed on RTE:

http://www.rte.ie/live/

mike65

Its not a waste of time for the opposition, as its two days of high profile pressure.

George Lee will need to learn how to sit in a Dail seat and look engaged with proceedings.

paddyland

mike65 wrote: »

George Lee will need to learn how to sit in a Dail seat and look engaged with proceedings.

The reality of the talking shop he has committed himself to is probably dawning on him.

I don't understand the fundamental point of this debate. Surely everyone is going to vote on their party line, as usual. Including independents voting with the party they committed themselves to.

Given that the result is a fait accompli, this debate is therefore a talking shop, and a waste of valuable and expensive dáil time.

Am I right?

xniamhx

gcgirl wrote: »

Where's John Gormless ?

I am disgusted that he is absent today, the man is absolutely spineless!

And where the hell have half the FF party gone off to? a later lunch? It's pathetic.


In relation to the thread, the opposition have been elected by the people, and it is their DUTY to speak for us, and to put forward such a motion when the goverment has quite clearly lost the confidence of the electorate.

mike65

Well its within the right of the opposition to table a no confidence motion once every six months so now is a good time to turn the screw a little more on national tv, be it live this afternoon or on news/current affairs progs later. Not a waste of time for them.

What else would they be discussing right now? And would we be taking any remote interest in it?

solice

The fact that the govt is sure to win is damning in its own right. The people have come out and said that they are not happy at all with the way things are going and want a change. Whatever about the Greens fighting for their political lives, the FF backbenchers, elected to represent the views of their constituents are just as complicit in this fiasco as they dont have the "liathroidi" to stand up and be held accountable and vote against Cowen. I have never voted FF but I would vote for any FF backbencher that votes with the opposition as it shows they are clearly listening to the electorate!

Akrasia

paddyland wrote: »

The reality of the talking shop he has committed himself to is probably dawning on him.

I don't understand the fundamental point of this debate. Surely everyone is going to vote on their party line, as usual. Including independents voting with the party they committed themselves to.

Given that the result is a fait accompli, this debate is therefore a talking shop, and a waste of valuable and expensive dáil time.

Am I right?

that can be said about everything that happens in the dail

turgon

solice wrote: »

The fact that the govt is sure to win is damning in its own right. The people have come out and said that they are not happy at all with the way things are going and want a change.

Not necessarily. Some people have merely said that they dont want Fianna Fail representing them on local councils and in the European Parliament. This would then point to FF failings in these bodies rather than in the national parliament.

peasant

solice wrote: »

I have never voted FF but I would vote for any FF backbencher that votes with the opposition as it shows they are clearly listening to the electorate!

There may just be one or two "cute hoor" backbenchers that are thinking the same ...only they'd have to go independent in the next election.

joseph brand

There's some difference in Gilmore's ability to speak campared to Kenny and the bovine Taoiseach.

solice

turgon wrote: »

Not necessarily. Some people have merely said that they dont want Fianna Fail representing them on local councils and in the European Parliament. This would then point to FF failings in these bodies rather than in the national parliament.

Its generally accepted that the local elections was fought on national issues so I would say its true.

Villain

Green TD Gogarty got under the collar with Kenny, saying he hadn't the balls to become Taoiseach

Dinner

joseph brand wrote: »

There's some difference in Gilmore's ability to speak campared to Kenny and the bovine Taoiseach.

There really is. He finished very passionately, much better than Kenny and Cowen.

Akrasia

solice wrote: »

The fact that the govt is sure to win is damning in its own right. The people have come out and said that they are not happy at all with the way things are going and want a change. Whatever about the Greens fighting for their political lives, the FF backbenchers, elected to represent the views of their constituents are just as complicit in this fiasco as they dont have the "liathroidi" to stand up and be held accountable and vote against Cowen. I have never voted FF but I would vote for any FF backbencher that votes with the opposition as it shows they are clearly listening to the electorate!

There is an element of game theory here where one or two FF tds could stand up and be collapse this government and actually benefit in the forthcoming GE with the status of a whistleblower/contientous objector.

If the individuals look at their options

A: vote with the party in the hope that the government will continue for 3 more years and that this will all have blown over by then

B: Break ranks and release a moving statement declaring that they have deep respect for the democratic voice of their constituents and that they can no longer in good conscience remain part of this government with no mandate from the people.

Option A is very risky because the govt could fall earlier than 2012 and they would probably lose their seat in the backlash against FF

Option B could see them gain kudos from the electorate and give them a reasonable chance of being re-elected as an independent or candidate with another party.

994

out of interest, has there been a proper debate in the Dáil since the Treaty Debates?

Liam Byrne

Akrasia wrote: »

Option B could see them gain kudos from the electorate and give them a reasonable chance of being re-elected as an independent or candidate with another party.

+1

If anyone resigned from FF and helped get them out of power they could have my next polling card NOW.

avalon68

Anyone else think it was ridiculous that all parties did not remain in the dail until the end of the debate? I mean Cowen walking out in the middle of the SF speech was just plain ignorant. He is being paid enough money that I for one expect him to sit there and respond to his critics, regardless of which party they belong to.

Liam Byrne

avalon68 wrote: »

I mean Cowen walking out in the middle of the SF speech was just plain ignorant. He is being paid enough money that I for one expect him to sit there and respond to his critics, regardless of which party they belong to.

Seems to be a new party tactic to keep the illusion and arrogance afloat, because an FF canvasser did that to me when I asked him some questions.

It shows the contempt and "I'm not answerable to anyone" attitude; the sooner the guy and his tent-buddies gets the boot the better.

I'm assuming that it didn't happen today ?

nesf

Akrasia wrote: »

There is an element of game theory here where one or two FF tds could stand up and be collapse this government and actually benefit in the forthcoming GE with the status of a whistleblower/contientous objector.

If the individuals look at their options

A: vote with the party in the hope that the government will continue for 3 more years and that this will all have blown over by then

B: Break ranks and release a moving statement declaring that they have deep respect for the democratic voice of their constituents and that they can no longer in good conscience remain part of this government with no mandate from the people.

Option A is very risky because the govt could fall earlier than 2012 and they would probably lose their seat in the backlash against FF

Option B could see them gain kudos from the electorate and give them a reasonable chance of being re-elected as an independent or candidate with another party.

Option B would have worked six months ago, not so much now. If they voted for the past two mini budgets and only jump ship now, after voting for getting rid of the Christmas bonus and other such hot button issues they probably have better chance with the party than without it. Any FF TD wanting to go the independent route should have jumped ship with the last budget I think at the very latest.

Anonymous man

I am glad about the pressure. I have no faith in this Government and my only way of showing it was last Friday. FG & Labour know their are over 50% of the people that want the general election. They are hopefully starting the ball rolling and in any case they are correct in what they are saying.

riptide

gcgirl wrote: »

Where's John Gormless ?

hehe. Thats a good point. I wonder whats going on in the back rooms of the green party. Seems to me that their alliance with FF, and Gormleys reversal on a few things has gutted their support base. Maybe they would have benefitted more from staying in Opposition.

Anyway John Who?

the_syco

squonk wrote: »

One and a half days amidst the greatest ecconomic crisis to hit this country in a long, long time and our public representatives are spending a day and a half debating a no confidence motion that the government will win anyway... Surely there are better issues that could be dealt with now using this time, especially considering holidays kick in in a a week or two anyway..

We is talking about a government who goes on holidays without giving a toss about the economic situation... so wasting a day or two on putting pressure to get them to f**k off is not really a total waste.

electrogrimey

Well it was the opposition who called it, and their more or less sole aim is to get into government, so they're easily going to take the, albeit slim, chance for it to passed at the expense of a day or two of Dáil time! So that answers the original question...as to whether it'll be passed or not, I'd say a few of the FF backbenchers and the Greens are debating the same things we're saying right now...

Liam Byrne

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has told his parliamentary party that Fianna Fáil has to modernise ahead of the next general election to produce an organisation that is fit for purpose.

TAOISEACH BRIAN Cowen told Fianna Fáil TDs and Senators last night that the party required radical modernisation to make it “fit for purpose” for the 21st century.

Multiple sources
http://news.ie.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=147887002
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0610/fiannafail.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0610/1224248537831.html

So he's admitting that it's not currently "fit for purpose" ? :eek:

How the f**k can he claim a mandate and arrogantly stay in place if his organisation isn't "fit for purpose" ? :mad:

squonk

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Multiple sources
http://news.ie.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=147887002
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0610/fiannafail.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0610/1224248537831.html

So he's admitting that it's not currently "fit for purpose" ? :eek:

How the f**k can he claim a mandate and arrogantly stay in place if his organisation isn't "fit for purpose" ? :mad:

I thought they were modern enough, especially under Bertie I thought they made lots of strides in PR etc. Now FG have a bit of a youthful lineup but I'm not sure that makes them very modern either. What's he talking about? Referring to the Cabinet as his 'Homies' from now on? I think they have bigger problems than modrnisation!

mike65

Classic response - blame a systems failure.

Liam Byrne

mike65 wrote: »

Classic response - blame a systems failure.

Maybe it's the same system that was supposed to read that report on the Anglo Irish cesspit before throwing all our money at it ?

Oh - hang on - that was Lenihan.....

seamus

Akrasia wrote: »

Option B could see them gain kudos from the electorate and give them a reasonable chance of being re-elected as an independent or candidate with another party.

nesf wrote: »

Option B would have worked six months ago, not so much now. If they voted for the past two mini budgets and only jump ship now, after voting for getting rid of the Christmas bonus and other such hot button issues they probably have better chance with the party than without it. Any FF TD wanting to go the independent route should have jumped ship with the last budget I think at the very latest.

To bring out an overused quote, "All politics is local". If someone was clever enough, they could examine the local election results in their own constituency and compare the increase in independent support -v- the decrease in FF support. If they were already reasonably popular in their constituency, it would stand to reason then that they will fare much better as a popular independent than an outgoing FFer. If they have any particular axes to grind on a local level, they're much more likely to get attention also as an independent in a coalition government than a FF backbencher.
I doubt anyone on the ground is looking too closely at who voted for what within the Dáil - especially when he can distance himself by saying that it was a FF mandate.

Of course, this does require a few criteria to be in place for someone to break ranks, but it only needs two
Maybe I'm just an optimist, though I'm a little puzzled why the media have already written this off as political footballing - it's absolutely not unreasonable to think this motion may end up passing by the skin of its teeth.

The Green party by its very nature would be much more likely to break ranks, but any collapse of this Government will land on top of the Greens and they'd be finished. They *need* to last the five years in order to salvage their party at the next GE.

solice

seamus wrote: »

To bring out an overused quote, "All politics is local". If someone was clever enough, they could examine the local election results in their own constituency and compare the increase in independent support -v- the decrease in FF support. If they were already reasonably popular in their constituency, it would stand to reason then that they will fare much better as a popular independent than an outgoing FFer.

This did happen. 40 ex FF councillors ran as independents or members of other parties and got elected. Backbenchers aint happy about that.

Independent Article

Zoney

seamus wrote: »

To bring out an overused quote, "All politics is local". If someone was clever enough, they could examine the local election results in their own constituency and compare the increase in independent support -v- the decrease in FF support. If they were already reasonably popular in their constituency, it would stand to reason then that they will fare much better as a popular independent than an outgoing FFer. If they have any particular axes to grind on a local level, they're much more likely to get attention also as an independent in a coalition government than a FF backbencher.
I doubt anyone on the ground is looking too closely at who voted for what within the Dáil - especially when he can distance himself by saying that it was a FF mandate.

On the other hand, even with the massive drop in support, a lot of FF household names are safe even if they won't bring in a running mate. People will vote no.1 O'Dea etc. and no.2 ABFF (although I'm cautiously looking forward to seeing the drop in no.1s for such individuals even so!)

Anyone who isn't popular enough to be a household name probably won't fare much better as an independent - although pulling out might get them some kudos (risky strategy though).

squonk

Won't that just result though in those councillors drifting back to FF over time as conditions improve? You have to wonder about the 'careerism' of some of these people when you look at some of the party hopping they do! For my my choice of party was reasonably well thought out before I joined and as long as they continue to reflect my values, I'll continue to be a member. Doesn't seem to be the same for some of the runners though!

"No Confidence motion - a waste of Dail time surely?", if it is a watse of time then a state wide protest by the people (just like they do in France) is needed to get FF out.

ShooterSF

seamus wrote: »

The Green party by its very nature would be much more likely to break ranks, but any collapse of this Government will land on top of the Greens and they'd be finished. They *need* to last the five years in order to salvage their party at the next GE.

And their govt. pension, right?

turgon

Anyone any idea what time the vote is at? The government seems unable to create an order of business.

peasant

seamus wrote: »

To bring out an overused quote, "All politics is local". If someone was clever enough, they could examine the local election results in their own constituency and compare the increase in independent support -v- the decrease in FF support. If they were already reasonably popular in their constituency, it would stand to reason then that they will fare much better as a popular independent than an outgoing FFer. If they have any particular axes to grind on a local level, they're much more likely to get attention also as an independent in a coalition government than a FF backbencher.
I doubt anyone on the ground is looking too closely at who voted for what within the Dáil - especially when he can distance himself by saying that it was a FF mandate.

Of course, this does require a few criteria to be in place for someone to break ranks, but it only needs two

There is also the (very) vague hope that there may be one or two politicians out there who actually (still) possess a moral compass and something resembling a backbone ...one or two politicians who still remember all the good intentions they had when they started off in this career.



Btw ...Santa Claus IS real, isn't he?

gcgirl

Can you access how the independents vote ? I'd like to know how the Ex FF Joe Behan votes it will be interesting!!

Liam Byrne

solice wrote: »

This did happen. 40 ex FF councillors ran as independents or members of other parties and got elected. Backbenchers aint happy about that.

Would that not give the backbenchers an indication of what's required of them ?

I could nearly guarantee that if 4 or 5 backbenchers resigned and then ran as independents they would be voted in at the next election, on the basis that they did the right thing.

solice

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Would that not give the backbenchers an indication of what's required of them ?

I could nearly guarantee that if 4 or 5 backbenchers resigned and then ran as independents they would be voted in at the next election, on the basis that they did the right thing.

Sher listen, the whole world and its mother was telling the govt that they need to change for the last couple of years and the taoiseachs response was that they should go and commit suicide. I dont for one assume that anyone in the current govt. has an i.q. greater than the number of council seats the green party has.

Sully

Well, as predicted, the government won with a majority of 6 (which in Dail terms, is pretty decent apparently). There is now talk that this has damaged FG as they, perhaps, should have waited. I know that a lot of those affected in that report about the child abuse scandals are annoyed at the discussion on it being put off to allow for the motion.

Thoughts? Im on the bench. It may have been wise to leave it, but I can see why they did it as it was in response to the elections.

CorkFenian

Sully wrote: »

Well, as predicted, the government won with a majority of 6 (which in Dail terms, is pretty decent apparently). There is now talk that this has damaged FG as they, perhaps, should have waited. I know that a lot of those affected in that report about the child abuse scandals are annoyed at the discussion on it being put off to allow for the motion.

Thoughts? Im on the bench. It may have been wise to leave it, but I can see why they did it as it was in response to the elections.

That makes a lot of sense alright..Blame FG (not saying u are but in general people might)when FF make a total mess of the child abuse scandals for past 10 years...It really does beggar belief...What were FG going to do...They had to push for a no confidence vote..FG and Labour have to work 10 times as hard as FF it seems to gain popular opinion...FF mess up and every party is bad..FF do "well" and FF and FF alone take the credit..What mandate do FF and Greens have..None...Just people who know they would be gone if there was a general election tomorrow...

peasant

I think it had to be done.

Just for the "you never know factor" and also because the opposition is in the luxurious position to take the high moral ground. Every now and then they have to stake their claim to it or loose it.

So now we know for certain that all those aligned to the governement really are the spineless, power crazy, gravy train passengers for which we always took them.

Worthwhile excercise in my book.