New Political Party

daragh.king · 09-06-2009 12:03pm #1

Hi all,
I am sure I am not the only one at the moment sick of the current state of affairs in Irish politics. I believe that there is a real need to have another party in Ireland. Our current choices are so limited we can reallisticly either choose FF or FG and then let them choose some other small party which usually has a very small and focased agenda or interest area to prop them up.
What I would love to achieve is a new party with new ideas and new people who have a passion for making Ireland a fairer and better place.
How I would love to see the party work would be people with an interest in a particular area would work together to create a plan that would improve that area. Then the party can mould these together and create a viable plan for improving everybodys life.
I just feel that for too long now teachers and lawyers have been running the country. I am not saying I want no teachers or lawyers just that they should be more focused on their areas of experience.
I would love feed back from people with similar ideas to see how far we could bring this idea.
I soppose I should talk about ideology. I would hope it would be open minded as opposed to the left or right. This would allow the party to explore all options always and reach the best conclusion/ way faward.
Anyways I'll just wait now to see if anyone feels the same. I am fully aware this may sound were strange and impossible to achieve but I honestly think it can be done.

P.S. I know I am not always the most articulate or even best speller but I hope my thoughs for a new party in Irish politics is clear and there are some people interested in making it happen.

Chardee MacDennis · 09-06-2009 12:11pm

www.piratepartyireland.com

there ya go

ShooterSF · 09-06-2009 12:20pm

I support the PP. The minister has mentioned the liberals in another thread and there seems to be a holding page on liberals.ie too. People might be realising a need for different parties at last.

Het-Field · 09-06-2009 12:24pm

www.liberals.ie

Gaining support all the time. It wouldnt be a bad movement to back.

turgon · 09-06-2009 12:29pm

www.liberals.ie is a think-tank not a political party asfaik.

Anyone know anything else about it?

Dr Galen · 09-06-2009 12:48pm

I got this from Politics.ie

appears they are less of a party and more of a movement?
__________________

Dr Galen · 09-06-2009 12:49pm

where's DonegalFella when you need him huh?

turgon · 09-06-2009 1:40pm

"Watered down liberals", more like it!

mjquinno · 09-06-2009 1:44pm

that liberial picture reminded me of this

http://gagagu.com/xe/files/attach/images/16556/672/016/buddy_christ.jpg

SalthillGuy · 09-06-2009 1:45pm

They have just thrown in the towel.
Mr Ganley going back to work... as he put it.

turgon · 09-06-2009 2:07pm

Liberals does not equal Libertas.

Fr0g · 09-06-2009 2:11pm

you're probably thinking of libertas But yes, they appear to be finished.

Permabear · 09-06-2009 3:12pm

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ShooterSF · 09-06-2009 3:55pm

I'd agree with nearly all of that Donelgalfella.
A couple of points though on an issue I don't agree with, not that I don't want to but because I don't see it as feasible.
While I'm all for privatization of public industry I would stop at health. Health care should be a non-profit setup with the care of patients not a bank balance as it's priority. I honestly feel this is one area where a socialist approach is preferable.
Speaking of banks if there is no way we can let them fail then maybe they need to be nationalised too. I'm not fond of the idea but it's better than a business that can do as it likes without consequences. They would be the two I'd focus on.

Permabear · 09-06-2009 4:05pm

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chem · 09-06-2009 4:23pm

A movement formed in Germany? What could go wrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMIzpkbChE

:D:D

ShooterSF · 09-06-2009 4:29pm

They do struggle and maybe a free-market setup with a combination of free clinics would satisfy me. I guess I'm protective of the poor when it comes to health. I agree though the current system is nothing to sing about

I agree. It would be a last resort to me but seemingly banks are the one industry we can't let fail. It's not a size thing, I'd happily let big businesses fall flat on their face but can we actually let that happen with banks? If they can fail without harm to savers then I'd be fine with letting them. Other than that it's damned if you do damned if you don't and if the govt. is at risk of bailing them in future there should be precautions put in place.

cavedave · 09-06-2009 4:33pm

There is a guy on the radio at the moment about "direct democracy Ireland". They seem to be the greens but pushing a new voting system.

I wonder where All these new parties stand on the political compass graph?

I am not holding my breath on a futarchy party

Sponge Bob · 09-06-2009 4:36pm

Very good post Donegalfella.

The problem with any 'sophisticated' party in Ireland is that it will have to deal with the 2200 people in Galway who did THIS the other day .

That post of yours sounds awfully like a PD manifesto , irrespective of its merits .

chem · 09-06-2009 4:45pm

Hi all.

All I want is a party that will listen. Not tell me what is best for me. I know you cant have a complete understanding of everythin, while in government, but some of the statments made by some TDs lately are just pure misinformation.

I am a sportsman, and have licenced firearms. My house has been checked for security (which I payed to upgrade). I have been vetted by the Gardai. Now my sport is under fire from the government because of gangland crime!!

Criminals dont get licenced guns. Yet I, and fellow shooters are been targeted as the problem. Minister Ahern met with shooting groups, listened to them, then turned around and proposed new laws to ban pistol shooting in Ireland. We also seen one TD say that handguns could be bought online here or over the counter:eek: Thats miles from the truth. Yet laws are made and passed when the facts are not known by the TDs voting on the new laws.

eagle eye · 09-06-2009 4:48pm

Whats your point?

I don't know anything about the guy but maybe he has been an exceptional local public servant.

ShooterSF · 09-06-2009 5:00pm

Unless his appeal holds up the guy is a criminal. If I robbed a bank tomorrow and ran for election should only my policies be looked at? Or the fact that I am a felon?

And if his appeal doesn't hold up, worse again. Because then he would be guilty and unremorseful (sp?) so what's to stop him re-commiting?

turgon · 09-06-2009 5:05pm

I agree fully with DF, including his thing about the think-tank. I dont know is there going to be any liberal party in Ireland soon.

So you would think less of these policies just because they were also put forth by the PD's?

mewso · 09-06-2009 5:11pm

What about France? Isn't it state run and considered one of the best in the world? Makes me wonder why we didn't look to them for a working model of health care. In fact a party that seeks to examine the best public service systems in the world and get advice and guidance on implementing similar systems where possible would get my vote.

I'm happy to pay higher taxes if I see them being spent wisely but the more I read these boards most seem to favour lower taxes and a survival of the fittest approach to society. No thanks.

The idea that Corporations would behave themselves knowing their Government wouldn't help them out in bad times seems unrealistic to me. Those Enron guys really kept themselves in check knowing they were on their own. Maybe we could remove the minimum wage and age limits on employees and invite Nike to set up a sweat shop here.

Permabear · 09-06-2009 5:16pm

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turgon · 09-06-2009 5:26pm

And theres the qualifying, age old "if." The "if" that has kept Ireland running after its tail for so many decades, getting absolutely nowhere.

Each party promises more "fairness" "equality" and "value for money." But can you show me any time these promises have lived up to our expectations? Instead we get the same wastage, and those in opposition with the same promises. Because people still seek the "if."

The problem is not Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Labour or the Greens. The problem is government. The problem is these people abuse their power to buy votes.

Government is inefficient. The "if" is never.

eagle eye · 09-06-2009 6:06pm

I've no wish to defend the man at all. I'm just questioning somebody saying an electorate in an area are stupid without having full knowledge of his track record. As I said I don't know anything about the guy but maybe since all this came to the public eye he has changed his ways and become a wonderful public servant, and maybe even when you balance this with his history as a public servant he is still miles ahead of the others in his area as a public servant.

The media only tell you that he was found guilty and spent time in jail. They don't tell you anything else about his record as a councillor.

Permabear · 09-06-2009 6:13pm

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mewso · 09-06-2009 6:41pm

Fair enough. I was asking not saying. If it's a good model then it's worth looking at. Thats what I'm thinking.

Not for the perpetrators. Pretty harsh times for people wanting their electricity on the west coast of the US though. They can be consoled by the fact that these guys didn't pay attention to the belief that they would behave because they were not protected by the government. You don't think there is a little danger when companies are not regulated in the slightest. Forgive me if I've misunderstood your wish to let business operate freely. Perhaps you would allow some regulation.

Ah nice dismissal. However I think it's a fair example of how corporations seem to lack a certain shall we say social responsibility. The worker is perhaps devalued a bit by good old Joe's constant use of the word but while it might be a lefty jump to herald disaster for them in the face of a free market I would suggest it's a righty jump to suggest all would be rosy if the pesky working man would just accept that he is working for an important business that will eventually improve his life by improving society.

paddyboy23 · 09-06-2009 7:34pm

how about the dole party there are some very clever people on the dole who could do a good job a lot better than that lot,

Dr Galen · 09-06-2009 9:07pm

I'd love to see a party who represented the liberal view. When I say this, I mean not only in an economic sense but also in a social fashion.

Government in this country has taken on the role of the great moral protector. Looking out for it's citizens, against all matter of evils! Take for example the gun laws, licencing for selling alcohol, opening hours for pubs and clubs, and this nonsense about blasphemy. For pitys sake why can't they just leave us all alone and stop with the nanny state nonsense.

Economically speaking a lot of what the liberal says, would appeal to me. I, like DF can see no reason for the government to be involved in the provision of a lot of everyday services. Really education is the only thing that I can think of that I'd like some guarantees and stability in. Saying that I'd be open to being convinced on how a non state run system could be run and funded.

Healthcare is possibily the service that we could make the immediate savings on, with I would say, a pretty close to immediate improvement in the patients experience of healthcare in this country.

The Dutch and the French, have become purchasers of healthcare, as opposed to the providers, like our state. In the past, I would also have been like the poster above, concerned about access to healthcare for all, regardless of ability to pay. I would have had concerns about standards of care. Until a) I did some research into other models of healthcare provision and b) i worked in the health services in this country. Both those things opened my eyes pretty quickly to the fact, that there has to be and is a better way of doing things

Permabear · 10-06-2009 3:49pm

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sink · 10-06-2009 4:44pm

Just want to add that social responsibility is actually encouraged by the free market as a form of marketing. Hence why successful companies do sponsor charities and why they avoid socially dubious activities even when there is no legal requirement. It's to do with freedom to choose. In a liberal society we each have a choice from whom we purchase products or services from and successful companies should reflect the choices that we as free individuals make. It our responsibility to choose to purchase from socially responsible companies, trying to pawn this responsibility off to the government is really only a way of avoiding our own responsibility.

mewso · 10-06-2009 5:52pm

You said "It's hard to argue that this is a system without accountability" and I agreed it's not system without accountability for the perpetrators once discovered. My concern is for those who are the victims of the fraud who watch the company file for bankruptcy the cash long spent on jets to Barbados. If theres a chance that certain kinds of regulation will catch this fraud instead of waiting for it all to blow up in everyones faces then I don't consider that a bad thing. I never suggested you don't think these guys should be punished but that you are happy to let them do as they please and punish then if and when their crimes are discovered. Theres another "if" for you guys.

Not sure what the big distinction is here. I'm not suggesting they march against wars or anything. I'm talking about illegal practices that they may "embrace" when they can get away with it. Are we to assume that Enron was the first and last time a crime like this will be committed?

Not sure why you used the word sorry there. My tendencies are to the left yes but I'm open to being persuaded on different ideas. Thats why I'm here discussing it. I only mentioned sweatshops as an example. Do they not exist? To dismiss it by saying it's some kind of fantastical throw back to Victorian times is unfair. I will say it's an extreme example and you might persuade me that it would become a genuine thing of the past in a properly overseen free market but you prefer to push the "oh man another lefty" button. John Pilger has made a living out of reporting on the kinds of things corporations get away with. He shouldn't have a career if free markets are so rosy. Of course he is an illogical lefty which probably means he is just reading from Dickens.

No confusion on my part I don't expect corporations to be anything of the sort. I expect them not to pollute rivers, commit fraud, build things with inferior parts to improve their margins and so on. And I believe it might be better to have structures in place to ensure they don't rather than catching them when too much damage is already done. Again we could discuss this. I'm no economic expert. I have my fears about a free market but I'm happy to be corrected and learn but you've decided I'm a krusty who campaigns outside IMF Annual General Meetings with my dog on a string.

Permabear · 10-06-2009 7:18pm

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mewso · 10-06-2009 7:39pm

Like I said I'm no expert so I'll accept your implication that it's is impossible to prevent fraud or catch it before it does too much damage.

Of course people are innocent until arrested with cause. Should we let people speed in their cars or drive drunk and only arrest them when they kill someone. I was not suggesting anything close to your quote above.

I assume regulation exists because there are practices of regulation that are designed to help stop companies from doing these things. So I don't know why you are asking me this. Fair enough you probably don't think regulation works but I assume many do.

I do if it puts their lives or their health in danger. If they could earn more pushing drugs and left to do so would you have a problem with that?

Cheers thanks for clearing that up. I do like a reasoned discussion with my peers. Just off to impose my communist ideas on some folks. Oh wait you've covered that....

If you think I support communism then we better leave it here I think. Unless I accept your argument I suspect I have to put up with being called a pinko commie in every reply I read.

You've been arguing for a free market. I'm not going to assume you are arguing for something we already have and neither am I going to assume that it means we currently have a big brother state that you are fighting against. Arguing against a free market or expressing concerns about it does not equate to advocating communism or a police run state.

Permabear · 10-06-2009 8:02pm

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mewso · 10-06-2009 9:42pm

Assuming the rules are adjusted when necessary if companies are discovered to have found loopholes I have no problem with this. I am simply voicing concerns and hoping that a freer market as you say doesn't allow more abuse. You are reacting to my concerns by saying I am a Communist.

Going round in circles here a bit. If a persons life is under threat or their health endangered theres nothing wrong with aspiring to improve their lives or their working conditions. If the alternatives are worse it doesn't mean the sweatshops are a solution it means the situation is a bigger problem. It would of course be unfair to say the underlying problem is down to corporations but it worries me when they might be willing to take advantage of these kind of circumstances.

Neither do I but you know thats not what I meant.

As I've said I'm voicing concerns not writing a manifesto. Unions for example came into existence because workers did need protection not for fun. Most people say they helped ruin the country during the Celtic Tiger but I think they completely lost their way. The Government gave them what they wanted without much argument, they became lazier resting on their laurels and stopped doing their jobs.

For example I work for the public service and we have an embargo on hiring new staff which is fine with me only our manager decided that he wanted a new grade 8 and in came some guy out of nowhere. No interview, no advertisement. imo this is the why a union is there. To go to this guy and say wtf are you at but they've forgotten how do this kind of thing. People associate unions with getting workers more money but it's supposed to be much more than that. It is about protectionism and yes it is also about accepting drops in wages if necessary when the country is in this current state.

They should react to reality and help their members at the same time but they are an empty vessel these days. Employees will always need protection. You may think there are ways to protect them without unions that enable business to function better but I would argue that a good union could protect their members without stifling business.

Look I raised some of my concerns and you've referred to me as a lefty, a communist sympathiser and a believer in a police state. I was not claiming to have the solutions or the alternatives to a freer market. At no point did I say get rid of the free market. Communism failed. Inevitably. But capitalism has an in-built survival mechanism. When something goes wrong we were either doing it wrong, it was down to a few bad eggs or there was too much interference and the market needs to be set free. I'm just a tad suspicious. I think there a balance. Less interference? Maybe. Let Big Business do as it pleases? Not convinced. Stop protecting employees? Worrying.

Anyway I've no definitive solutions so you can have the last post writing me off as a [insert left wing label here].

Permabear · 10-06-2009 10:17pm

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mewso · 10-06-2009 10:44pm

I respect your beliefs in this but it would be nice if while believing this you didn't assume those who differ with you aren't raving leftys. I think the bloated public service is down to bad management though not necessarily regulation. The Public Service is bloated but it also has a dearth of projects installed by management to enhance their CVs and that serve no real purpose for the community but to win awards from the Chamber of Commerce.

Thats a pretty biased opinion. You must see that you're dislike of unions whether justified or not is blinding you a bit here. Plenty of humanitarian organisations would have issues with sweatshops too. I don't doubt there are people in this with agenda that wouldn't sit well with me but humanitarians do exist and it's a disservice to suggest the only opposition to exploitation of workers is based on self interest in every case.

Well there is that theory about the world bank, crippling loans and so on but hey I'll stop there or I'll get that commie tag poured on me again. I still think it's a bit of a leap to suggest that capitalism and free markets will save these people but to be fair we could probably use our knowledge of where it has gone wrong in the past to help them do a better job than we have as they develop.

Ah yes the US. The best examples of Unions in the world. I don't have much fondness for unions these days but I do believe in the principals that brought them into existence. Thats probably where we differ. I think they can do a better job. You just don't want them to exist.

I said - "Arguing against a free market or expressing concerns about it does not equate to advocating communism or a police run state". Shall we go back and pick the places where I said I was voicing my concerns/fears or concentrate on a quote where I was not talking in the first person?

I'd be interested to know how it would collapse if there was an inexhaustible supply of workers willing to do this job. Because they wouldn't have the strength to get out and spend their disposable income and stimulate the magical merry-go-round that is the splendiferous capitalist world?

tolosenc · 10-06-2009 10:59pm

So, donegalfella, where do we sign up to this party of yours?

Dr Galen · 11-06-2009 12:08am

www.donegalfellagroupies.com

Permabear · 11-06-2009 1:05am

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Count Dooku · 11-06-2009 2:09pm

www.amhrannua.com

Permabear · 11-06-2009 3:20pm

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turgon · 11-06-2009 4:19pm

Well Id be concerned that they advocate councillors cannot join the Dail until 5 years after they finish in their council, given that most TD's are "promoted" from councils. Such as Varadkar.

What this site suggest is Councillors must prove themselves politically, then take a 5 year break before they can go further. Its just lacks logical thought, and would indicate that the group isn't that pragmatic about things.

Whatever about the jist of policies, I would consider practicability very important.

Permabear · 11-06-2009 4:55pm

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liberalsociety · 13-06-2009 11:22am

What precisely do you mean by "Watered down liberals"?

Niall Neligan BL
Secretary, The Liberal Society

liberalsociety · 13-06-2009 11:24am

A movement founded by lawyers attending a conference on Competition Law in Germany, hardly equates with what you are suggesting.

Niall Neligan BL
Secretary, The Liberal Society

liberalsociety · 13-06-2009 11:27am

The Liberal Society is not a political party, but a progressive policy think tank modeled on the Progressive Policy Institute in Washington. Politically we would be in the centre where the X and Y axis meet.

Regards

Niall Neligan BL
Secretary, The Liberal Society
www.liberals.ie

liberalsociety · 13-06-2009 11:30am

That's very funny:D great picture, thanks for that post.

Regards

Niall Neligan BL
Secretary, The Liberal Society

New Political Party

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