Can i clamp someone's car?

gar_29

i have a lock-up garage in town. this morning someone decided to block it. this is not the first time this car has done that.

where do i stand if i just buy a clamp and clamp them? is it allowed? the garage is in a private courtyard, so the clampers won't touch it.

i've phoned the gardai, and they are looking into it, but there's not a whole lot they can do.

seamus

You are not permitted to interfere with another person's vehicle, this includes clamping it.

gar_29

seamus wrote: »

You are not permitted to interfere with another person's vehicle, this includes clamping it.

cheers for that.

to be more precise, am i committing a specific offence?

niceirishfella

If someone interfered with my car, I'd give them a hiding!
Think twice before touching anyones motor.

gar_29

niceirishfella wrote: »

If someone interfered with my car, I'd give them a hiding!
Think twice before touching anyones motor.

indeed, but i'm really wondering if there's something specific i could be charged with?

I_am_Jebus

being a private court yard can you put up a sign stating that cars parked without the owner's consent will be clamped?

Can you then legally clamp them?

seamus

gar_29 wrote: »

indeed, but i'm really wondering if there's something specific i could be charged with?

You would be effectively detaining someone's vehicle without any authority to do so. If someone's vehicle is parked on your property, you can bring a civil action against them for trespassing, but you are not permitted to detain their vehicle.

I_am_Jebus wrote: »

being a private court yard can you put up a sign stating that cars parked without the owner's consent will be clamped?

Can you then legally clamp them?

No. A sign doesn't give you any rights in regards to detaining a vehicle. You can clamp it, but you *must* release the clamp when the owner requests it, and even then they could bring you to court.

Your only option really is to not make it attractive to park there. Cones might work. Stick enough of them in front of your garage that he couldn't be bothered moving them. Even a sign saying, "No parking, clamping in operation" might be sufficent discouragement.

oceallachain

gar_29 wrote: »

indeed, but i'm really wondering if there's something specific i could be charged with?

Yes you could be charged with an offence contrary to Section 113 of the Road Traffic Act 1961-2007. Its one of the more serious traffic violations. Don't do it.

Hooch

gar_29 wrote: »

i have a lock-up garage in town. this morning someone decided to block it. this is not the first time this car has done that.

where do i stand if i just buy a clamp and clamp them? is it allowed? the garage is in a private courtyard, so the clampers won't touch it.

i've phoned the gardai, and they are looking into it, but there's not a whole lot they can do.

oceallachain wrote: »

Yes you could be charged with an offence contrary to Section 113 of the Road Traffic Act 1961-2007. Its one of the more serious traffic violations. Don't do it.

Above is correct, interfering with an MPV. DONT DO IT! Call your local AGS station and tell them it is blocking the entrance to your business and let them sort it out with an FCPS. Also you could possibly seek legal advice for a civil action if their action has left you out of pocket (Im not a solicitor)

Blanchguy

Maybe the car could be bounced out of the way and left parked awkwardly? Not suggesting you do this but when the guy comes back he might get the hint.

Fair enough with people not wanting their car interfered with but if you park on someone else's private property and block their business what's the solution? If you came home and there was a car parked in your driveway would you just say, "Not to worry, better not interfere with that chap's car"?

I'm almost certain that if you put a sign up on private property, if someone parks there they accept the Terms and conditions on the sign.

gar_29

oceallachain wrote: »

Yes you could be charged with an offence contrary to Section 113 of the Road Traffic Act 1961-2007. Its one of the more serious traffic violations. Don't do it.

thanks for that, guess i'll have to not do it so!

on a side note, i skimmed through the act, and any thoughts on whether a private courtyard counted as a public road for the purposes of the act? there's no gate, and it can be freely accessed from the public road.

seamus

Blanchguy wrote: »

I'm almost certain that if you put a sign up on private property, if someone parks there they accept the Terms and conditions on the sign.

To a certain extent. Terms and Conditions cannot negate/override what's written in law.

So you could put up a sign stating that there's a parking fee of X per hour. But you cannot put up a sign saying that, "Cars will be clamped and will not be released unless a fee is paid", because that contravenes the RTA section quoted above and also some other laws such as those dealing with extortion.

Blanchguy

So how do the clampers of which there are at least 4 large reputable companies in this country get away with it? Are you saying that if I tell them to release my car even if it's parked on private property they must release it even if I don't pay?

niceirishfella

Since when were clampers reputable?

com1

oceallachain wrote: »

Yes you could be charged with an offence contrary to Section 113 of the Road Traffic Act 1961-2007. Its one of the more serious traffic violations. Don't do it.

Am, you may want to look at that again - the offence appears to be interfering with a vehicle in a public place - the OP said that the vehicle is parked on private property. Paragraph 4 also seems to allow for the removal of the vehicle if it is blocking access

Blanchguy

Just strikes me as odd that that private companies have been clamping people for parking in disabled spaces, not paying in car parks, parking in residents spaces etc for the last umpteen years and collecting clamping fees and it's completely illegal.

How do you suggest dealing with someone who parks on your property without your permission? Give them a hiding? I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

hobochris

com1 wrote: »

Am, you may want to look at that again - the offence appears to be interfering with a vehicle in a public place - the OP said that the vehicle is parked on private property. Paragraph 4 also seems to allow for the removal of the vehicle if it is blocking access

If the vehicles driver did not have to pass a barrier or gate then AFAIK it comes under the road traffic act as its publicly accessible.

gar_29

com1 wrote: »

Am, you may want to look at that again - the offence appears to be interfering with a vehicle in a public place - the OP said that the vehicle is parked on private property. Paragraph 4 also seems to allow for the removal of the vehicle if it is blocking access

yes, but i think i remember reading one time on the accommodation forum that a car park may be deemed "public" if there is access to it from the public highway, regardless of the ownership of the land.

seamus

com1 wrote: »

Am, you may want to look at that again - the offence appears to be interfering with a vehicle in a public place - the OP said that the vehicle is parked on private property. Paragraph 4 also seems to allow for the removal of the vehicle if it is blocking access

There is a definition of "public place" on the statutes, and it basically covers any area to where the public normally have access. So if the gate is open (or there is no gate), it could reasonably fall under this definition.

Blanchguy wrote: »

Just strikes me as odd that that private companies have been clamping people for parking in disabled spaces, not paying in car parks, parking in residents spaces etc for the last umpteen years and collecting clamping fees and it's completely illegal.

It's because they get away with it basically. If you demand that they release your vehicle, they are required to. If they refuse to, you ring the Gardai.

dvpower

If someone parks in my private driveway, am I entitled to clamp them?

Do I need to put up a sign to this effect?

Thoie

seamus wrote: »

It's because they get away with it basically. If you demand that they release your vehicle, they are required to. If they refuse to, you ring the Gardai.

Has that ever worked for anyone faced with private clampers?

IIMII

Why don't you stick a large sign saying that cars that block the entrance to your lock-up will be clamped, with a €100 unclamp fee. You'd pick a sign up somewhere. Doesn't mean that you actually have to clamp them . But the threat might be enough

daftdave

politely ask them not to park there as it is your private property or leave them a note pointing the fact out .

any lip from em , just tell em that next time he parks there you are calling the gardai , and make sure that you follow through with it.

seamus

dvpower wrote: »

If someone parks in my private driveway, am I entitled to clamp them?

Do I need to put up a sign to this effect?

That's a thorny one, my inclination is to say "no", whether or not you put a sign up.

Thoie wrote: »

Has that ever worked for anyone faced with private clampers?

A friend of mine used to run a car showroom with a petrol station next door and they used to park a couple of their vehicles at the wall of the petrol station closest to their showroom if they needed to move stuff around. A couple of times the cars were clamped but they simply grabbed the clampers at the end of the day and demanded that the clamps be removed. And they did.

oceallachain

seamus wrote: »

There is a definition of "public place" on the statutes, and it basically covers any area to where the public normally have access. So if the gate is open (or there is no gate), it could reasonably fall under this definition.

It's because they get away with it basically. If you demand that they release your vehicle, they are required to. If they refuse to, you ring the Gardai.

Even if the gate is locked it is still a public place so long as the public have access to, whether through payment of a fee or not, the place in question. This covers city and town centre car parks and hence makes them public places. It would also cover your garage. it would be a different story if you clamped them on your private property at a time when you weren't trading, i.e. on a Sunday. In this way you couldn't be criminally prosecuted under Sec 113 but you may still be prosecuted civilly. But don't be under any illusion - even if its your property and you have a closed gate, if you are trading from there and the public have access to your trade then it is a public place and Sec 113 would apply.

For example, Gardai can arrest you for drunk driving if you drive in a pub car park if the pub is trading (including half hours drink up time) but they cannot arrest you for drunk driving if the pub is not trading. However, the pub could do you for civil trespass.

Hope this helps...

Samson

Road Traffic Act, 1961

Unauthorised interference with mechanism of vehicle.

113.—(1) A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing an offence under this section, he may arrest the person without warrant.

(4) This section shall not apply to a person taking, in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle which is obstructing his lawful ingress or egress to or from any place, such steps as are reasonably necessary to move the vehicle by human propulsion for a distance sufficient to terminate the obstruction.

(5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.

From:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0113.html#zza24y1961s113

gar_29

Samson wrote: »

From:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0113.html#zza24y1961s113

thanks. it's slightly vague, "reasonable steps"....

probably doesn't include me smashing a window to release the handbrake!

Trojan911

gar_29 wrote: »

thanks. it's slightly vague, "reasonable steps"....

probably doesn't include me smashing a window to release the handbrake!

Trying to get a person to hospital would justify that course of action in my opinion.

sdanseo

dvpower wrote: »

If someone parks in my private driveway, am I entitled to clamp them?

Do I need to put up a sign to this effect?

Same situation as if they park in a communal area really, private property is private property, as far as I know there aren't differnt types.

Best bet is ring the Guards, reading the replies - they'll sort it one way or the other.

Hooch

Trojan911 wrote: »

Trying to get a person to hospital would justify that course of action in my opinion.

Not really, maybe civily but not criminally.

think its for the likes of Fire Service or Ambulance and ES getting to a life threating incident. No sure to to be honest.

Trojan911

nice guy always wrote: »

Not really, maybe civily but not criminally.

think its for the likes of Fire Service or Ambulance and ES getting to a life threating incident. No sure to to be honest.

I'd take the chance. I doubt very much a jury would convict in the circumstances, if it even got past the DPP.

askitnice

well you can always put up a sign saying goods entrance any cars parked at owners risk then drop a keg on his windscreen by accident

robtri

if this has happened a few times before, do you have any idea at what time the person returns to their car..
if you do I would park another car in such a manner that it obstructs him from driving out of his space and let him sweat for an hour or two as you search for the keys which just happened to be misplaced....
you don't touch his car, so can't be done for criminal damage or any other road offence, as it is private property, you have the right to park your cars where ever you want... if he doesn't get the hint... you make him wait longer each subsequent time...

Croc

Road Traffic Act, 1961

Unauthorised interference with mechanism of vehicle.

113.—(1) A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing an offence under this section, he may arrest the person without warrant.

(4) This section shall not apply to a person taking, in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle which is obstructing his lawful ingress or egress to or from any place, such steps as are reasonably necessary to move the vehicle by human propulsion for a distance sufficient to terminate the obstruction.

(5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.




What about the highlighted section, i know its not the answer to the original question about clamping, but it may help

Monkeybonkers

Not advocating illegal action on your part but surely if his car happened to get scratched while it was parked in front of your lock-up then he would want to move it to another area where it wasn't so dangerous to leave your car unattended. You never know what kind of little gurriers are out there!

Blanchguy

Well from the highlighted section it does seem that rounding up 3 burly friends and bouncing the car out of the way seems quite legal. Better again bounce it on to double yellows and call the law. There are also devices called "Go Jaks" which are like roller skates you can put under a car to shift it. Probably overkill in your case.

I know that clamping is illegal in Scotland but I'm still not convinced that thousands of people in Ireland have forked money out to clampers when all they had to do was tell them to take the clamp off.

Victor

If someone parks in your driveway and you want to make a point, lock the gate and take photos. Leave a note telling them that if you return to find damage, that you will have them charged with criminal damage.

oceallachain wrote: »

Even if the gate is locked it is still a public place so long as the public have access to, whether through payment of a fee or not, the place in question. This covers city and town centre car parks and hence makes them public places. It would also cover your garage. it would be a different story if you clamped them on your private property at a time when you weren't trading, i.e. on a Sunday. In this way you couldn't be criminally prosecuted under Sec 113 but you may still be prosecuted civilly. But don't be under any illusion - even if its your property and you have a closed gate, if you are trading from there and the public have access to your trade then it is a public place and Sec 113 would apply.

For example, Gardai can arrest you for drunk driving if you drive in a pub car park if the pub is trading (including half hours drink up time) but they cannot arrest you for drunk driving if the pub is not trading. However, the pub could do you for civil trespass.

Hope this helps...

sdonn wrote: »

Same situation as if they park in a communal area really, private property is private property, as far as I know there aren't differnt types.

Yes there are. There was a case of someone being injured after a drink driving case in an army barracks - private property and not a public place (typical admission restricted to certain classes of people). Compared to a shopping centre car park that might be private property and a public place. Similarly, the forecourt of a car showroom might constitute a public place, but the private storage lot wouldn't.

trad

I'm bemused by this thread. There is a difference between a private property and a public place (RTA). Section 113 or the RTA is taken to mean interfering with the mechanism for the purpose of trying to steal a vehicle (twoc in the UK)

Getting nowhere being a nice guy I looked into setting up a clamping company and as far as I asertained it's a "grey area". It does not come under the control of the PSA as to do so would "legitimise" the clamping companies.

A recent case I observed at Bray Dart station a car parked on the footpath in what I would clearly identify as a "public place" was clamped by a well known clamping company. I don't condone parking on a footpath, however I considered the area to be undr the control of Bray UDC. Wrong. Apparently CIE owns the road in front of the train station and as this car was technically within the confines of CIE's property the offender had to pay a hefty declamp fee.

Seamus, from your early contribution it would appear you have some indepth knowledge regarding clamping on "private property" being illegal and I for one, would be interested in braodening my knowledge of the law in relation to this matter.

Blanchguy

I don't have a gate :-(

vrfcno7

trad wrote: »

Seamus, from your early contribution it would appear you have some indepth knowledge regarding clamping on "private property" being illegal and I for one, would be interested in braodening my knowledge of the law in relation to this matter.

I second this... :-)

rockmongrel

Park your car in front of his/hers, see how they like it :cool:

civildefence

seamus wrote: »

You are not permitted to interfere with another person's vehicle, this includes clamping it.

If this is the case, how come private "enforcement" contractors aren't being taken to the cleaners for their actions?

I noticed in some car parks, security guards just put nuisance "do not park here" stickers on the car's windows, maybe this is a good strategy or would this be regarded as interference too?

Also very curious about the legalities of clamping...

trad

Last nite in St. Vincent's Hospital cars were clamped outside of the car parks. The "release" fee was €120 and a fiver extra for using a credit card.Needless to say it was not my car.

With such large entities as hospitals, CIE, even Dublin City Council clamp cars within residential off street parking areas mostly city center flat complexes there clamping companies must be able to convince thecontracting authorities of the legality of clamping.

Anyone out there with a definitative verdict as to the legality of clamping? It was outlawed in Scotland, clampers being compared to highwaymen.

There is a provision in an ammendment to the Criminal Justice Act contained within a Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act that was brought in to prevent the setting up of temporary residences (Caravans etc.) on private property which set out a clear route to be followed in the event of a breach of the act but is does not include vehicles.

seamus

trad wrote: »

Seamus, from your early contribution it would appear you have some indepth knowledge regarding clamping on "private property" being illegal and I for one, would be interested in braodening my knowledge of the law in relation to this matter.

I wouldn't have indepth knowledge on it, but this discussion has been had a number of times on this forum and on the motors forum, so I'm really quoting from those previous discussions (what I can remember anyway).

civildefence wrote: »

If this is the case, how come private "enforcement" contractors aren't being taken to the cleaners for their actions?

I imagine most people have neither the time, money or inclination to bother challenging it. There's a chance you may lose your civil action, remember, and that's not cheap

trad wrote: »

Last nite in St. Vincent's Hospital cars were clamped outside of the car parks. The "release" fee was €120 and a fiver extra for using a credit card.Needless to say it was not my car.

With such large entities as hospitals, CIE, even Dublin City Council clamp cars within residential off street parking areas mostly city center flat complexes there clamping companies must be able to convince thecontracting authorities of the legality of clamping.

The council/government clampers have their function enshrined in legislation, so it's perfectly legal for them to clamp you on the public road. This right may extend into other government properties such as hospitals, schools and state housing, I haven't looked into it.

The basic thing which was discussed before is that any private company or individual is allowed to impose charges for parking a vehicle on their property. These charges must be displayed on or near the entrance, and be very visible and readable. Parking in that property is then deemed to be an acceptance of these terms. There are also rules in terms of the charge being fair for the service provided (afaik), so someone charging €100/hour or €120 to release a clamp may be deemed to be unfair terms and unenforceable.

When you go to remove your vehicle, your debt to the property owner needs to be discharged. However, if you are unable to pay your debt on the spot, the property owner does not have the right to detain your vehicle until the debt is paid, rather they are required to bill you for the cost and wait for the debt to be paid. This includes the requirement to release a clamp, and in big car parks if you cannot pay your ticket, they cannot leave the barrier down and trap your car inside. They are required to allow you to leave, whether you've paid or not.

The only challenge to this is the concept of a lien, where an item of property may be detained until such a time until a debt is discharged. I'm not very au fait with this concept in law, but generally it requires that the property being detained is related to the service provided (e.g. a mechanic may hold onto a car he fixed until the bill is paid). Some liens are enshrined in law, others fall under a more general heading.

Were someone to bring a case against private clampers, their primary defences would probably be in contract law and lien law. And they could win.

But there is nothing in law which says that private clamping is legal, and the RTA suggests that interfering with another person's vehicle is illegal.

Our man in Havana

There is a precedent that says private clamping is unlawful.
A student was clamped in WIT, he removed the clamp himself. Clampers called the Gardaí and the student was charged with criminal damage and theft. Judge ruled that the clamping was unlawful and he was acquitted of all charges.

seamus

Bond-007 wrote: »

There is a precedent that says private clamping is unlawful.
A student was clamped in WIT, he removed the clamp himself. Clampers called the Gardaí and the student was charged with criminal damage and theft. Judge ruled that the clamping was unlawful and he was acquitted of all charges.

Do you happen to have a link to this ruling?

backboiler

Looks like a thread on the same case. PM that OP?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055041472

Our man in Havana

seamus wrote: »

Do you happen to have a link to this ruling?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55163862&postcount=7

Judge ruled clamping illegal at WIT 18/1/2007
Judge William Harnett ruled at Waterford district court last week that WIT has no authority to clamp the Vehicles of people who park illegally at its cork road campus.

The case originated when a clamp was removed from a car by its owner on January 5th last year. The judge ruled that the owner was entitled to remove something that was stuck to his car by whatever means and if it damages his car, he was entitled to claim damages.

While there where notices up in the car park informing motorists that clamping was in operation, Judge Harnett ruled that there were no laws to support that notice before dismissing the case.

WITSU expects that WIT will seek legal clarification on this matter and that clamping will continue for now. WITSU welcomes the ruling that clamping is illegal, however does not encourage motorists to park in dangerous or unhelpful positions.

trad

As far as I can see signs are placed on property deeming it to be private property. Once it sets out its claim that the property is private, ie not a public road (as opposed to a public place) you are now entering as a trespasser and this, in the view of the clamping company brings it into the ealm of civil law which is not legislated for, a bit like the casinos operating in a loophole in the gamiing and lotteries act.

The only people who can clamp on a public road is a road authority or an agent acting on their behalf. Hence clamping in DCC Galway city etc. The local authorities who have clamping on their estates must be working on the basis that while it is a public place, it is not a public road. The on street clamping and estate clamping are carried out by seperate companies.

I would dearly like to see a challenge to all clamping public and private as I believe it is only a revenue gathering exercise.

I am also of the opinion that the current towing of cars in the Dublin City area may be ultra vires in that, the removal of a car from where it is illegally parked to another place not being a pound, (a place of convenience) must be followed by a removal to a pound. The current contractor does not have a pound. This is the regulations as I remember them but I will have a good look when I have time.

7mountpleasant

Had a similiar situation some years ago when i was in college and someone kept on using our driveway, came home one evening and some girl who did not want to pay for parking had decided to use our driveway, simply parked my car behind her, said very sheepish girl knocked on our door about 4 hours later asking us to move the car, advised that I was the owner of the car and as I had had 2 drinks would not be moving it until midday the nex tday at the earliest, she threatened to call cops, which duly arrived and told me to move car, refused point blank and they just left.